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BALANCE BY XIN
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Minalan✭✭✭✭✭
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That, or maybe it shouldn't empower stamina abilities?
It's a mage guild skill. It's for magicka specs. It's not like magicka toons can use anything in the fighter's guild line anymore for PVP.
Anyways. That would leave it viable for magblades who NEED it, and take that toy away from proc set stam nightblades that most certainly do NOT.
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Xinthisis✭✭✭✭
That, or maybe it shouldn't empower stamina abilities?
It's a mage guild skill. It's for magicka specs. It's not like magicka toons can use anything in the fighter's guild line anymore for PVP.
Anyways. That would leave it viable for magblades who NEED it, and take that toy away from proc set stam nightblades that most certainly do NOT.
mmm, except stam dks and other stam classes use it for the major empower on abilities like Dawnbreaker. The thing with complex changes like you mentioned = bugs and issues when it comes to zos coding. Making it only work for magicka based abilities would require a lot, and since its primarily a pvp focused changed it will get no show time. It's gotta be something easy for zos to implement. Its just the fate of PVP players.
Also, proc sets are being reevaluated and potentially nerfed next patch. This is confirmed by zos. So yeah.1 -
Xinthisis✭✭✭✭Since we're talking about individual skills now, Dawnbreaker of Smiting should be made to do Magicka damage again. Flawless should remain as stamina. Zos would have to look at possibly swapping the extra damage to flawless, or removing it completely. It may be too strong on something like a mag nb or mag sorc if it hits like it used to in the thieves guild patch. (Or was it before that?)1
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Xinthisis✭✭✭✭Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »Proc sets are getting reworked. This is confirmed, and therefore I didn't mention them. Stam is strong because they have access to so much utility. Being able to get great sustain+damage+dodge chance+tankiness. Not to mention the way cp helps Stam builds more then magicka builds. Easiest fix is to nerf unchained, and to make it to where if a stam build wants to have dodge chance+root snare removal all in one skill they have to run 5 medium armor.
@Giles.floydub17_ESO state your solutions, not just your criticism. People with complaints and no solutions pollute these forums. Be refreshing.
You act like a solution is simple yet it's not.
Additionally, I didn't start the his thread and topic so I don't have to derail the thread by adding changes I think would help. Oh, reduce damage from proc sets in Cyrodiil, maybe.
The one thing I don't have and you certainly don't have is meta data from the game which is essential for making actual decisions that change the game.
Take ok the nerf threads and most are worthless merely because the player has not taken the time to figure out how to PvP.lucky_Sage wrote: »the only stats that get buffed by cp is cost reduction and regen. cp just needs a rework completely
This is why before I start a conversation with someone about balance, I ask what platform they play on.
Take all your cp out and check your resource pools. Put all your cp back in and check them again. Thanks. Now let the people who know what they're talking about continue the conversation.
No need to be condescending. Again, you asked for people to post their thoughts in this thread.
Thx for understanding
Not sure if anyone noticed, but every change he suggested except for maybe unchained is crafted to make stealth ganking players easier.
My targets have too much health and stamina. Red CP health bonus makes ganking too hard. Nerf so I can one shot everyone.
My victims have shields, nerf those too.
Heavy armor people hit shuffle when I gank them, put a stop to it.
Someone nerf unchained because every other nightblade skill gives my opponent three seconds of free stamina casts.
God help us if ZOS listens to it.
Lmfao, that reminds me. Remove the stun from stealth. I knew I was missing something. I also think that the extra damage is a bit too high. Since it stacks with everything else on NB passives.
Ganking is always going to be a thing because of the core damage increase mechanic from stealth of elder scrolls games. The changes I mentioned in the OP are there after talking to many different players. From top tier small group players like @FENGRUSH to Solo players like @Velukodi. Talking to people all across forums, steams, and teamspeak. The auto stun from stealth definitely needs to get removed, but then again that is why radiant mage light exists.
The shield Idea was actually mentioned to me by a magicka sorc player @Lord_Invel. I've always known that once heavy armor became meta they would need to adjust armor abilities to be bound to that armor type. @FENGRUSH agrees that armor abilities should only be usable while in 5 pieces of that armor type. It balances out the over the top heavy armor stam builds. Wanna run heavy armor, then you cant run rally because before the dodge chance saves you the snares will kill you. You'll need to get another way to deal with snares and roots. They exist, but you'll have to make a choice.
CP increases my max stats as well.. so I get more damage.. and the way damage stacks in this game, the more stats I have to play with the easier ganking will become... I really dont think you understand the way things work. As it stands right now there is a build in game that does 44k dps burst to ANYONE in game. I just dont have the sets yet. Oh, and its not using proc sets either.
@Giles.floydub17_ESO I have no idea what your point is at this time. Do you have any solutions, or are you content with the current state of pvp and overall balance in general?
@Xinthisis
Any idea is better than your ideas. Your ideas are narrow minded and based on the our limited experience.
Additionally, there is a balance update coming out. My suggestion is wait for that.
PvP is only part of the game and changes need to take all into account.
Finally, my sugesstion is you some start a thread again to if you only want people to accept you oppinions. The idea of a thread is discussion of the OP, not offering counter suggestions.
Get over it buddy.
His "limited" experience?
LoL
lol0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »So far you ahve been the ONLY one that didn't know something about the game (and it was a pretty "central" main mechanic of it), yet youa re calling somoene elses experience limited...lolGiles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »Proc sets are getting reworked. This is confirmed, and therefore I didn't mention them. Stam is strong because they have access to so much utility. Being able to get great sustain+damage+dodge chance+tankiness. Not to mention the way cp helps Stam builds more then magicka builds. Easiest fix is to nerf unchained, and to make it to where if a stam build wants to have dodge chance+root snare removal all in one skill they have to run 5 medium armor.
@Giles.floydub17_ESO state your solutions, not just your criticism. People with complaints and no solutions pollute these forums. Be refreshing.
You act like a solution is simple yet it's not.
Additionally, I didn't start the his thread and topic so I don't have to derail the thread by adding changes I think would help. Oh, reduce damage from proc sets in Cyrodiil, maybe.
The one thing I don't have and you certainly don't have is meta data from the game which is essential for making actual decisions that change the game.
Take ok the nerf threads and most are worthless merely because the player has not taken the time to figure out how to PvP.lucky_Sage wrote: »the only stats that get buffed by cp is cost reduction and regen. cp just needs a rework completely
This is why before I start a conversation with someone about balance, I ask what platform they play on.
Take all your cp out and check your resource pools. Put all your cp back in and check them again. Thanks. Now let the people who know what they're talking about continue the conversation.
No need to be condescending. Again, you asked for people to post their thoughts in this thread.
Thx for understanding
Not sure if anyone noticed, but every change he suggested except for maybe unchained is crafted to make stealth ganking players easier.
My targets have too much health and stamina. Red CP health bonus makes ganking too hard. Nerf so I can one shot everyone.
My victims have shields, nerf those too.
Heavy armor people hit shuffle when I gank them, put a stop to it.
Someone nerf unchained because every other nightblade skill gives my opponent three seconds of free stamina casts.
God help us if ZOS listens to it.
Lmfao, that reminds me. Remove the stun from stealth. I knew I was missing something. I also think that the extra damage is a bit too high. Since it stacks with everything else on NB passives.
Ganking is always going to be a thing because of the core damage increase mechanic from stealth of elder scrolls games. The changes I mentioned in the OP are there after talking to many different players. From top tier small group players like @FENGRUSH to Solo players like @Velukodi. Talking to people all across forums, steams, and teamspeak. The auto stun from stealth definitely needs to get removed, but then again that is why radiant mage light exists.
The shield Idea was actually mentioned to me by a magicka sorc player @Lord_Invel. I've always known that once heavy armor became meta they would need to adjust armor abilities to be bound to that armor type. @FENGRUSH agrees that armor abilities should only be usable while in 5 pieces of that armor type. It balances out the over the top heavy armor stam builds. Wanna run heavy armor, then you cant run rally because before the dodge chance saves you the snares will kill you. You'll need to get another way to deal with snares and roots. They exist, but you'll have to make a choice.
CP increases my max stats as well.. so I get more damage.. and the way damage stacks in this game, the more stats I have to play with the easier ganking will become... I really dont think you understand the way things work. As it stands right now there is a build in game that does 44k dps burst to ANYONE in game. I just dont have the sets yet. Oh, and its not using proc sets either.
@Giles.floydub17_ESO I have no idea what your point is at this time. Do you have any solutions, or are you content with the current state of pvp and overall balance in general?
@Xinthisis
Any idea is better than your ideas. Your ideas are narrow minded and based on the our limited experience.
Additionally, there is a balance update coming out. My suggestion is wait for that.
PvP is only part of the game and changes need to take all into account.
Finally, my sugesstion is you some start a thread again to if you only want people to accept you oppinions. The idea of a thread is discussion of the OP, not offering counter suggestions.
Get over it buddy.
His "limited" experience?
LoL
Yes.
And I'm aware he's a streamer. He has certain styles of play and his oppinion is based off that limited experience
He also seems to think he's special in that he's been condescending to some here and he also has troubles when people disagree with his thoughts.
So again, yes.
@rteezy
Lol. Must be a fanboy of the streamer.
dont even know who he is lol..never see his stream or anyone with that name lol. BUT, even if i watched ops stream, my point would remain the same and be as valid...
@rteezy
For which it is not.
Seriously. How could OP even consider his ideas balance when he wants to make DKs snare and also add major evasion to it. Talk about it becoming an OP skill.
Lol. Balance?
that is NOT what he said.
he proposed to remove armor abilities unless you had 5/5 of that armor
WHICH makes sense since you can clearly see EVERY stam heavy armor using shuffle (and if u dont you are doing it wrong..)
THAt is yet another thign that makes them too strong adding extra dodge to teh already tanky AND bursty stam heavy builds.
MMOS are about making choices, and you can either choose to be tanky...or to have dodge...
HE ADDED as a sugestion that they could still give evasion trhough the Ash skill (which is so weak and awfull that no one serious uses it atm)..so , again, choices, you would drop a main dps or cc ability FOR ash, if u wanted major evasion.
NO ONE uses that ability because of the snare when you have talons and fossilize..
Again buddy, you seem to lack ALOT of knowledge about the game to even be participating here..Its nto about just sharing opinions, but rather sharing INFORMED opinions, any other kind of opinion is worthless...
@rteezy
LolEdited by idk on December 13, 2016 9:39PM0 -
Brutusmax1mus✭✭✭✭✭
✭1. I'd rather it be limited by time. Maybe 3 seconds per piece they have on.
2. Soft caps go well beyond just max stat.
3. If anything, bashable heavy attacks reduce build diversity. If a no sustain build gets ran out of resources you should prevail, but it provides a way for the build to climb back in to fight again If you're not good enough to punish them. Landing a heavy attack with a 2h, bow, fire or Ice staff is already a challenge against good players. Shouldn't be harder imo. Sounds like your issue of with the returned resources. I'll admit, in heavy especially is pretty crazy. I'm OK with lowering the synergies that increase the return.
4. Have you ever played a shield build? It's not as easy mode as you think. It should refresh the full shield for the full duration as it does. How about if you recast your dot it only does damage for the part that wasn't used.... Dumb.
5. Yes.
6. Not an issue to me really, it makes sense to me though either way i look at it.
7. Yes. I don't bash on console much due to the regen halting immediately.1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭That's says it all that this conversation isn't worth my time.
@Giles.floydub17_ESO It seems that it is. Do you have any solutions or nah?
Still the same lame reply.
My suggestion is scrap your idea and wait for the balance patch to see what happens.
Wow. Guess which idea the devs will go with?1 -
Xinthisis✭✭✭✭Brutusmax1mus wrote: »1. I'd rather it be limited by time. Maybe 3 seconds per piece they have on.
2. Soft caps go well beyond just max stat.
3. If anything, bashable heavy attacks reduce build diversity. If a no sustain build gets ran out of resources you should prevail, but it provides a way for the build to climb back in to fight again If you're not good enough to punish them. Landing a heavy attack with a 2h, bow, fire or Ice staff is already a challenge against good players. Shouldn't be harder imo. Sounds like your issue of with the returned resources. I'll admit, in heavy especially is pretty crazy. I'm OK with lowering the synergies that increase the return.
4. Have you ever played a shield build? It's not as easy mode as you think. It should refresh the full shield for the full duration as it does. How about if you recast your dot it only does damage for the part that wasn't used.... Dumb.
5. Yes.
6. Not an issue to me really, it makes sense to me though either way i look at it.
7. Yes. I don't bash on console much due to the regen halting immediately.
1. Also an interesting way to fix it. I like it.
2. what I meant is that cp giving max stats is leading to a harder time for zos to actually balance the game. 187 cp=1870+ max stats atm. With each patch that number grows exponentially.
3. Heavy attacks are not hard to land, especially with 2h heavy being bugged the way it is. Fire and ice staff, sure that can be tricky with the travel time, but thats why you use resto to heavy attack for resources.
4. I played magicka nb for about 2 years. Haven't played with the recent shield "nerf" but didn't use shields that lasted longer then 6-8 seconds anyway. (Healing ward, whitestrakes) Never was a fan of harness magicka as I felt it was too powerful. Still is imo.
5. Yup.
6. Yeah, as person that has been on both sides of the spectrum it is one of the more broken mechanics with stealth gameplay.
7. Yup.Edited by Xinthisis on December 14, 2016 10:52PM0 -
Xinthisis✭✭✭✭Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »That's says it all that this conversation isn't worth my time.
@Giles.floydub17_ESO It seems that it is. Do you have any solutions or nah?
Still the same lame reply.
My suggestion is scrap your idea and wait for the balance patch to see what happens.
Wow. Guess which idea the devs will go with?
Ever think that since they're in the process of a "balance patch" you'd want to get ideas out there to help fix things before it drops on PTS. To which 80% of all changes that have made it to PTS make it to live game.
Or is it just fun to try and shut down this post because you're just another forum warrior responsible for zos's hesitance to hear out the community?
You still have no fixes in mind, or any reasons why the fixes I mentioned would be bad. You're just trying to have an opinion heard.0 -
Elusiin✭✭✭✭✭I agree with OP, there needs to be more skillful play when it comes to PvP.
Also:- Off-balance + heavy attack should knock-down players in PvP.
- Proc sets should have like a 20% damage reduction since cp effects them(Exceptions for some sets like Eternal Hunt as it's a crafting set and situational).
- Some sets need improved like Essence Thief, and crafting sets.
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Strider_Roshin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Been playing since launch, been through it all. Here are the changes needed and are also VIABLE for zos to actually implement. I know we all want a 1.5 or 1.6 return but that's just not happening folks.
1. Make armor abilities usable only while in 5 pieces of that armor type. (5 medium=shuffle. No shuffle for 5 heavy, or 5 light)
2. Remove the max stat increases from CP. Its like having soft caps again, makes the game easier for zos to balance.
3. Bring back bash/interrupt-able heavy attacks. Skilled play please.
4. Nonrefreshable shields. If a person wants to waste magic on a shield that has 2k left on it, let them recast that 2k shield. Not a full 11k shield. Skilled play please.
5. Nerf Unchained passive. cc break should= 80% reduced cost on ONE ability. Not 3 seconds of essentially free casts.
**Edit**
6. Remove the stun from stealth attacks!
Edit #2.
7. Make Blocking turn stam regen to 0 only after holding block for .5 or 1 second. This promotes people who reactively block while still punishing those who hold block. Also, for console players that have no choice but to tap block in order to bash enemies, it removes that crappy mechanic of missing a regen tic because they have to tap block in order to do so.
Now, I know the first thing people will talk about is "What about tava's dks? How are they going to dodge attacks if they cant use shuffle, or evasion?!" Well, DK's ash cloud (cinder storm) used to have miss chance on it. How about just give one of its morphs the Major Evasion buff for allies standing in its radius?
With the way zos balances this game it will be impossible to accomplish with ever increasing exponential resource pools. CP giving more max stats adds on to the problem. Especially with the new sets that get added in.
Anyone that knows what it was like to bash/interrupt a person doing a heavy resto attack on you while they were low on magicka agrees this needs to come back. (You get to bash those 2h heavy attacks too)
All the nerfs to shields and damage and healing is all linked to the lack of skill based gameplay. Shields used to be unrefreshable. This means that you cast your 10k(it was 1k back then.) hardened and say it gets hit for 6k(would be 600. I miss the old days.
) damage, if you were to recast the shield you would only have a 4k shield. You'd waste the magicka. Atm its a push this button for this uncrittable, ability non procable buffer. (RIP SIPHONING ATTACKS STILL NOT PROCCING ON SHIELDS)
3 seconds=3 abilities for anyone with good animation cancelling. 3 free casts for getting cc'd. CCing someone used to be a good thing, in some cases its better to not cc them at all. Especially if someone is in reactive.
Stunning people from stealth on ANY attack is problematic. It makes stealth gameplay too powerful. There is a reason that the main dps ability of the stealth class (nb) has a built in CC in it. It's because its a powerful mechanic to hit someone from the shadows with high extra critical damage and stun them all in one. It should be limited to surprise attack. No more stuns from Snipe, or silver bolts, or heavy attacks. Stealth and damage should be the advantage of ganking, not a buggy cc.
There are probably a bunch more but the most blatant and thought out fixes that come to mind are here.
@ZOS_RichLambert @Wrobel @ZOS_GinaBruno
No joke, I read this with the intention of finding something to dispute, but I failed. Job well done, and excellent suggestions.1 -
Strider_Roshin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Abilities such as jabs, RD, soul assault, and flurry should not scale from thaumaturge btw. Nor should their damage be reduced by thick skinned.0 -
Xinthisis✭✭✭✭Strider_Roshin wrote: »Abilities such as jabs, RD, soul assault, and flurry should not scale from thaumaturge btw. Nor should their damage be reduced by thick skinned.
Hmm, that would be interesting. I think this is something I'd have to research more before I can comment on its effects. Reason being is, why would anyone want to run these channeled abilities. They're already bad (imo) as it stands compared to the current instant cast dps abilities.0 -
ManDraKE✭✭✭✭✭
✭Strider_Roshin wrote: »Abilities such as jabs, RD, soul assault, and flurry should not scale from thaumaturge btw. Nor should their damage be reduced by thick skinned.
that would enrage the entire PvE playerbase.2 -
RinaldoGandolphi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I'll say what Ezareth said last time someone brought those kinds of changes to shields:
It was a bug back then when they worked that way, and it wasn't long before it was fixed.
Those kinds of changes would kill light armor staff builds more then they already are. They already lose half their value in pvp, and they had their duration nerfed by 70% with no reduction in cost. This change forced many sorcs into sustain sets instead damaging ones (Lich, Seducer, etc) instead of sorcs being able to wear all damage sets like other classes can.
I agree with everything else, and I'm open to changing shields under one condition
If wearing 5 light armor there is no Bolt Escape Fatigue Penalty....if they want duration refresh only shields, which will make us the squishy class in the game, then atleast give us back our mobility..in ok with being really squishy as long as I can move...oh and Boundless Storm removes snares and roots and gives immunization for 5 secs at rank 4...do that and nerf shields all you wantRinaldo Gandolphi-Breton Sorcerer Daggerfall Covenant
Juste Gandolphi Dark Elf Templar Daggerfall Covenant
Richter Gandolphi - Dark Elf Dragonknight Daggerfall Covenant
Mathias Gandolphi - Breton Nightblade Daggerfall Covenant
RinaldoGandolphi - High Elf Sorcerer Aldmeri Dominion
Officer Fire and Ice
Co-GM - MVP
Sorcerer's - The ONLY class in the game that is punished for using its class defining skill (Bolt Escape)
"Here in his shrine, that they have forgotten. Here do we toil, that we might remember. By night we reclaim, what by day was stolen. Far from ourselves, he grows ever near to us. Our eyes once were blinded, now through him do we see. Our hands once were idle, now through them does he speak. And when the world shall listen, and when the world shall see, and when the world remembers, that world will cease to be. - Miraak2 -
Minalan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »I'll say what Ezareth said last time someone brought those kinds of changes to shields:
It was a bug back then when they worked that way, and it wasn't long before it was fixed.
Those kinds of changes would kill light armor staff builds more then they already are. They already lose half their value in pvp, and they had their duration nerfed by 70% with no reduction in cost. This change forced many sorcs into sustain sets instead damaging ones (Lich, Seducer, etc) instead of sorcs being able to wear all damage sets like other classes can.
I agree with everything else, and I'm open to changing shields under one condition
If wearing 5 light armor there is no Bolt Escape Fatigue Penalty....if they want duration refresh only shields, which will make us the squishy class in the game, then atleast give us back our mobility..in ok with being really squishy as long as I can move...oh and Boundless Storm removes snares and roots and gives immunization for 5 secs at rank 4...do that and nerf shields all you want
The answer is 'no' on a shield refresh nerf. And it's not open to discussion or negotiation.
If you can't wait five seconds and hard stun someone with their shields down, you should be playing 'Sesame Street: Elmo Counts to Five' instead of ESO.
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Xinthisis✭✭✭✭RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »I'll say what Ezareth said last time someone brought those kinds of changes to shields:
It was a bug back then when they worked that way, and it wasn't long before it was fixed.
Those kinds of changes would kill light armor staff builds more then they already are. They already lose half their value in pvp, and they had their duration nerfed by 70% with no reduction in cost. This change forced many sorcs into sustain sets instead damaging ones (Lich, Seducer, etc) instead of sorcs being able to wear all damage sets like other classes can.
I agree with everything else, and I'm open to changing shields under one condition
If wearing 5 light armor there is no Bolt Escape Fatigue Penalty....if they want duration refresh only shields, which will make us the squishy class in the game, then atleast give us back our mobility..in ok with being really squishy as long as I can move...oh and Boundless Storm removes snares and roots and gives immunization for 5 secs at rank 4...do that and nerf shields all you want
Thats the whole point of the post, is to discuss. My biggest gripe with shields has always been that they negate ability procs on them because of the way they are coded. I do think that the nerf to streak was too much, and that sorcs had to essentially become sustain/tanky/bursty class versus the kite class they once were. Though, sorcs have kinda always been in a weird spot balance wise.
I personally wouldn't be opposed to sorcs having mobility but lacking the ability to cast full buffers every 2 seconds.
@Minalan The thing is that most sorcs don't wait until 6 seconds past to recast. Some go straight into shield stack the moment you light attack them and because they have infinite sustain from lich/engine/seducer/etc they cast it for close to nothing. Add in sets that promote constant shielding (infernal/engine) and you have a situation where sometimes its better to just light attack weave and cast shields waiting to burst someone. I do count and time burst, the problem is that I dont think their should be such a short duration on hardened or harness. It should last the 20 seconds or however long, but force the sorc to monitor shield strength versus just pushing one button to get a buffer. In the end, shields just need to have all abilities be able to proc on them. If nothing else is changed about shields I just wanna know that things work on them the way they're supposed to.0 -
Minalan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭All I have to say, is try playing a LA/shield build before nerfing shields more than they are.
Most people carry enough passive armor pen to reduce you to the effective armor protection of nudity.
Critting shields will make them last less than the two or three seconds they do now, one shotting the caster. Shields already have zero resists on them.
Denying shields a refresh leaves a sorc in easy one shot gank range for four or five seconds. It would kill the class, and there aren't enough streaks to fix that.
The six second nerf was enough. The cost is still high, and unsustainable if trying to stack two or three shields every few seconds. I'll let someone else do the math on the sustainability of casing 6-8K magicka worth of shields is.
Magicka costs for everything are ridiculously high compared to stamina. Every stam weapon line comes with a 20% cost reduction passive baked in. Magicka has to get it from sets or glyphs, reducing your already anemic damage potential. Hell. Stamina doesn't even need to slot regen most of the time, it just works.
TLDR; Shields are fine. If anything they're still too short. If your 'balance' thread is nothing more than a stamina proc tank and NB ganker wish list, then so be it. But at least be honest about it.
PS: This is officially another 'nerf sorc' thread. Didn't think I'd see one of these since DB patch. I can name on my hand the number of sorcs capable of serious 1VX that would warrant this.0 -
GreenSoup2HoT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Strider_Roshin wrote: »Abilities such as jabs, RD, soul assault, and flurry should not scale from thaumaturge btw. Nor should their damage be reduced by thick skinned.
Hmm, that would be interesting. I think this is something I'd have to research more before I can comment on its effects. Reason being is, why would anyone want to run these channeled abilities. They're already bad (imo) as it stands compared to the current instant cast dps abilities.
You just said Radiant Destruction was bad.
PS4 NA DC0 -
Xinthisis✭✭✭✭GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »Strider_Roshin wrote: »Abilities such as jabs, RD, soul assault, and flurry should not scale from thaumaturge btw. Nor should their damage be reduced by thick skinned.
Hmm, that would be interesting. I think this is something I'd have to research more before I can comment on its effects. Reason being is, why would anyone want to run these channeled abilities. They're already bad (imo) as it stands compared to the current instant cast dps abilities.
You just said Radiant Destruction was bad.
Compare radiant to executioner. Radiant is strong but can be bashed. 1v1 radiant isn't as good as an instant cast execute. Xv1 anything is good against that 1. Which is why its seen so much because most people are getting beamed while outnumbered.
This is why I didn't want to get into individual skills in the first place, because it would pollute the point of the post.
@Minalan you see what you want to see. Neglecting the proposed nerfs to stam builds to focus on the one topic of shields. Its worth talking about changes to shields, but thinking this is just to buff a proc gank build because I play it is funny. Even though I'm constantly talking about nerfs that directly affect the builds I run, because if its broken its broken.
One change in particular, making armor abilities only usable while in 5 pieces of that armor type would singlehandedly bring much needed balance between magicka and stamina. Add in the unchained nerf proposal and boom. Stamtards needs to figure out what regen is again.
ZOS obviously see's something wrong with shields if every couple of patches they decide to change them. So, we should discuss what's wrong with them along with how strong healing is, burst, etc. Trying to say "this has officially become a sorc nerf thread" is just a sign that you don't even want to discuss it. Actually, you did say its not even worth discussion.
If proc sets are mentioned again, dont forget that zos already confirmed they are going to rework them. Making them into dots, or having some form of global cooldown, major minor procs, etc. Idk what they will do, but I personally just want to see them nerfed into the ground as well. Then a look at healing would be nice as well. Without burst how are you supposed to kill anyone with a burst heal? Especially now that people know how to build tankier characters while still having some damage, things will be interesting next patch.0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@Xinthisis
Go away with your nonrefreshable shield nonsense. It does not achieve anything and it never achieved anything back in the days (it might have felt different if you were a NB or DK because your main attacks then were bugged to ignore harness even though they were magica skills which led to having an advantage when fighting shielding targets - but it was a freaking bug).
The only thing it does is force the people not already stacking shields into stacking shields so you can alternate between shield 1 and shield 2 (or 3).
It cuts down build variety and promotes dull and repetetive gameplay.
Edit: And while we´re at it - can we please note the bug that cloak forcemisses projectiles even when the NB is revealed by a detect potion.Edited by Derra on December 17, 2016 12:07AM<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 501 -
Xinthisis✭✭✭✭@Xinthisis
Go away with your nonrefreshable shield nonsense. It does not achieve anything and it never achieved anything back in the days (it might have felt different if you were a NB or DK because your main attacks then were bugged to ignore harness even though they were magica skills which led to having an advantage when fighting shielding targets - but it was a freaking bug).
The only thing it does is force the people not already stacking shields into stacking shields so you can alternate between shield 1 and shield 2 (or 3).
It cuts down build variety and promotes dull and repetetive gameplay.
Edit: And while we´re at it - can we please note the bug that cloak forcemisses projectiles even when the NB is revealed by a detect potion.
I never liked using harness magicka.. Never liked how strong it was, then or now. Atm people are using 2-3 shields depending on the percentage of health they have. If a sorc gets cc immunity and starts shield stacking chances of killing that sorc go to zero the moment they start shielding up. Doesn't matter how much damage you have. It's just the way shields work. Sorcs don't need to run any heals outside of healing ward because of the way shields work. Even with the awesome pet heal.
NB cloak has always been buggy, for better or worse. For instance, i still feel that being able to cloak-ambush-surprise attack getting 2 hits essentially from stealth is broken. Especially because it can be done whenever you want.
Detect pots. lol
Give me a anti heal/anti shield/anti block pot before we start getting into detect pots and how broken they are. Also, just light attack with an damaging enchantment like disease next time at a nb. As they cloak the enchantment will pull them out and your 9k frag can hit that nb now while you have a 20k buffer on.
BTW, the people that mentioned nonrefreshable shields to me are people that play mag sorc and mag nb. lol
At a very high level of skill I might add. They hate it too when average sorcs just prolong fights by shielding up. If you don't get a sorc to below 70% while they are cc immune and timing your burst just as cc immunity runs out (hope they aren't running immov pots) you just wont kill them. All they have to do is push shield 1, shield 2, shield 3. There was a time in this game where people could not indefinitely remain defensive. It promoted aggression and pushing the pressure. Now its all about who can tank the longest to spank.
I'm actually surprised you all aren't more mad that I suggested bashable heavy attacks. Sorcs were the class I punished the most with that mechanic. Oh wait, its because crushing shock would be base damage and you could abuse it. lol
Yet I'm the one with the bias.
All I'm asking for is skilled play people, no more easy buttons. Shields are easy buttons, one of many in this game now.0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@Xinthisis
Go away with your nonrefreshable shield nonsense. It does not achieve anything and it never achieved anything back in the days (it might have felt different if you were a NB or DK because your main attacks then were bugged to ignore harness even though they were magica skills which led to having an advantage when fighting shielding targets - but it was a freaking bug).
The only thing it does is force the people not already stacking shields into stacking shields so you can alternate between shield 1 and shield 2 (or 3).
It cuts down build variety and promotes dull and repetetive gameplay.
Edit: And while we´re at it - can we please note the bug that cloak forcemisses projectiles even when the NB is revealed by a detect potion.
I never liked using harness magicka.. Never liked how strong it was, then or now. Atm people are using 2-3 shields depending on the percentage of health they have. If a sorc gets cc immunity and starts shield stacking chances of killing that sorc go to zero the moment they start shielding up. Doesn't matter how much damage you have. It's just the way shields work. Sorcs don't need to run any heals outside of healing ward because of the way shields work. Even with the awesome pet heal.
NB cloak has always been buggy, for better or worse. For instance, i still feel that being able to cloak-ambush-surprise attack getting 2 hits essentially from stealth is broken. Especially because it can be done whenever you want.
Detect pots. lol
Give me a anti heal/anti shield/anti block pot before we start getting into detect pots and how broken they are. Also, just light attack with an damaging enchantment like disease next time at a nb. As they cloak the enchantment will pull them out and your 9k frag can hit that nb now while you have a 20k buffer on.
BTW, the people that mentioned nonrefreshable shields to me are people that play mag sorc and mag nb. lol
At a very high level of skill I might add. They hate it too when average sorcs just prolong fights by shielding up. If you don't get a sorc to below 70% while they are cc immune and timing your burst just as cc immunity runs out (hope they aren't running immov pots) you just wont kill them. All they have to do is push shield 1, shield 2, shield 3. There was a time in this game where people could not indefinitely remain defensive. It promoted aggression and pushing the pressure. Now its all about who can tank the longest to spank.
I'm actually surprised you all aren't more mad that I suggested bashable heavy attacks. Sorcs were the class I punished the most with that mechanic. Oh wait, its because crushing shock would be base damage and you could abuse it. lol
Yet I'm the one with the bias.
All I'm asking for is skilled play people, no more easy buttons. Shields are easy buttons, one of many in this game now.
And I´m saying your solution would not change a damn thing.
I know because i played a sorc then (mainly solo) and i´m playing a sorc now (solo and in smaller grps).
Having nonrefreshable shields would do one thing on sorcs: Every sorc would run freaking Harness/Dampen AND Hardened (which results in less build variety for people who currently don´t use harness). What you do is: shield1 => shield2 => shield1 => shield1 => shield2 => shield1 => shield3 => start all over.
Do you understand that i criticise your point based on the knowledge i have from back in the day when mechanics actually worked in a way you´re proposing them to be reverted to? I actually KNOW what i´m talking about because the gamed used to work that way and i played that way.
On bashable heavy attacks: I never utilized heavy attacks back then because my build did not suck and i had infinite sustain without heavy attacking. The class i punished the most with this were magica nightblades.
Also lol at your statement of people not being able to be permanently defensive: The longest duels i´ve had in this game were in patch 1.4 and 1.5 - because of people being able to be defensive permanently (and i´m talking 30 mins+ for one duel).
As far as my proposed shield changes go. By someone who actually uses them and fights against them:
Don´t allow harness and hardened to stack - period. You can have one anytime shield - which ofc has to be refreshable.
Decrease healing ward scaling by 150% extra shield strengh (instead of 300% extra shield you get 150% on low hp) and increase the initial heal of healing ward by 100% to 150%. Keep ward ally as is.
Edit: Also if you want to remove easy buttons: Where is your take on block. You want to buff block for normal builds but where is your take on nerfing the easiest easy button in the game. Permablock is a freaking knightmare if you can not access any skill to break block and all of your attacks are projectiles.
I won´t even start to argue about the "great pet heal". If you had any experience on that topic you would not have made that statement. Just take a simple advice: If you know nothing - say nothing.Edited by Derra on December 17, 2016 9:21AM<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 500 -
Xinthisis✭✭✭✭@Derra The thing is I've talked about harness magicka not being stackable with hardened or healing. Where Hardened is a major shield buff or something, and harness is also a major shield buff. Using the major minor buff system, but people would shoot that idea down as well. I've always seen harness as far too powerful with the way it can be utilized in stacking.
The problem is that people immediately go to "But nightblade this" blah blah. It's always the same route.
Unstackable harness+hardened would be interesting. A nerf to healing ward is long overdue as well. Then again zos doesn't balance individual skills. Its always swooping nerfs. We can always hope though.
Proposed nerf to blocking? hmm, I'd have to think for a long time on that one. I think making aoes go through block again would be a good start. Dots, and aoes going through block would take away a lot of blocking's strength. That partially why destro ult is so strong. Aoe that goes through block.0 -
Strider_Roshin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Strider_Roshin wrote: »Abilities such as jabs, RD, soul assault, and flurry should not scale from thaumaturge btw. Nor should their damage be reduced by thick skinned.
that would enrage the entire PvE playerbase.
That's nice.0
