Why ESO doesn't smell like Skyrim

AzuraKin · December 2016

danno8 wrote: »

AzuraKin wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

AzuraKin wrote: »

i seen words comparing eso to skyrim, and saying its great skyrim wasnt about grinding. well good news dude, removal of grinding is why any real es fan hates skyrim. it makes no sense in skyrim to run around stealth killing *** then get increase in health. it makes no sense sit there for 2 hours getting bashed to get magicka. none whatsoever. did you know when they announced eso i wasnt surprised? why because skyrim was the test for the eso system of magicka/health/stamina model of damage scaling. because lets face it its more realistic that if you wanna be better with a sword and have greater strength you use a *** *** sword. the post-arena pre-skyrim system of stat lvling was near perfection for a rpg game. imo i would rather es6 go back to the old system with some changes like all resources go up each lvl by the same system as health did at lvl up you gain x% increase based on the stats that effect that pool. this means you want the biggest health pool, the biggest mana pool, or the biggest stamina pool, you have to focus on lvling the associated attributes. in fact i would go a step further and make each of the 3 pools based on 2 of the stats differing from each other and all share luck stat. this means if you want the maximum health, your stamina and magicka wont be as high as someone who focus'd on stamina or someone who focused on magicka. this would have created a better system then what skyrim had while maintaining the realism feel that daggerfall, morrowind, oblivion system of skill lvling to lvl raising had.

Except for one thing. Remember in Oblivion where you had to set the skills you actually wanted to use as Minor skills so that you could level them up without increasing your actually player level too fast so that you could get all the +5 attribute bonuses at level up?

And then you had to set skills that you would never really want to use as Major skills so that when you were done getting all the +5 attribute bonuses you would just spam a worthless Major skill to actually level up?

Yah that was far from perfection in my mind. But if you didn't work the system this way, or you didn't know this is how it works, every level up was a potential gimping of your character since all the baddies levelled with you.

rofl easily 70% maybe even more of the fun to be had in an elder scroll game was nothing but figuring out how you were gonna lvl up your character. *** think about it you can beat the game without ever lvling up if you wanted to. the quests were not all that difficult. the grind to lvling was the best part of elder scrolls. you actually felt like a warrior. skyrim, eso, you dont feel like a warrior in training. rather you feel like some kid the gods picked up tossed on some enchanted armor and said hey go slay the mighty dragon who cannot hurt you in this magic armor.

I agree with you that building your character and advancing their skills how you want is a large part of Elder Scrolls games. But I disagree that micro managing major/minor advancement or even realizing at level 10 that setting the skills you want to max out as major skills was a huge mistake and restarting your character is a whole lot of fun.

To fix it, they should have simply awarded generic experience for levelling (that you get by questing/fighting/smithing/alchemy etc...), separate from the experience you get for raising skills and allow the attribute bonuses to keep accruing even if you have hit a level up point. That way you could "sleep" and level up only when you had all the bonuses you wanted, and making your main skills as major skills would actually make sense.

actually smart players dont pick minor/major skills based on that is what they want to use, rather they play as they want and use those skills to lvl up for min/max of stats. but the overall part of it that made it crucial is es isnt just some random rpg game. it is an rpg game that intends to give p&p rpg feel to it. that means grinding, that means nothing is guaranteed without a high stat for that skill. and one shouldnt be able to improve as a mage by working with warrior or thief skills. you should lvl up in an area by working on that area not on another area.

Bislobo · December 2016

I don't even like skyrim, Morrowind is my favorite TES. ESO is not supposed to be like a single player game, ESO has it's own flavor and i play it for more than 2 years because of that.

corrosivechains · December 2016

Obligatory Skyrim Summation:

Be glad this game isn't Skryim. Honestly it needs to be less like it. Let it be it's own thing.

Publius_Scipio · December 2016

I guess the popularity of Skyrim or any of the other single player ES games made people think ESO would simply be Skyrim online. ESO or any MMO need certain systems in place, the game needs to function in a certain way for the MMO aspect to actually work.

But maybe there will be a DLC where we visit the actual area where Skyrim takes place. Maybe there you can find some of the scent you are seeking.

Astanphaeus · December 2016

Darkstorne wrote: »

BlackSparrow wrote: »

...Dude. Do you realize how bad a 20-minute respawn timer would be in a multiplayer game? How quickly people would exploit that to get the mobs right when they pop? How few casual players would ever get to kill anything at all, because all the vets are sweeping through the area, grinding mobs? And what about mobs that drop materials? Would each wolf carry 30 pieces of leather? What about the crafters who just don't get to their mobs on time? No.... a 20-minute spawn timer is just a bad, bad idea.

Easily solved by solo phasing, or highly infrequent phasing with other players. Keep dolmens and world boss areas as group phase locations, as well as group dungeons, but make the vast majority of dungeons and exterior environments solo experiences. That way mobs can be much more spaced out, designed to interact with and patrol the world instead of staying fixed to their spots 30 yards away from each other as exp pinatas. Rather than having zones swarming with mobs everywhere you look, they could far less common if there are no players to compete with for exp, and that way they could also provide a lot more exp per kill. The game could integrate spaces where scenery isn't interrupted by mobs, and you won't keep seeing packs of them respawn under your nose.

That's (sort of) the approach Destiny took. Not solo phasing, but encountering players outside of the city hub is much rarer than in traditional MMOs. It builds a much more spacious atmosphere, boosts immersion when you're questing (so when that quest NPC acts like you're the only adventurer around, you could believe him for once), and all without killing the social aspects of MMOs since they're found in cities and group dungeons/PVP zones.

It amazes me the number of people who think MMO must mean a game swarming with players at every turn.

You do know what MMO stands for, right?

geonsocal · December 2016

@corrosivechains ...man, that was great - i hadn't seen it yet - thanks for putting it up

AzuraKin · December 2016

rofl i do gotta throw some cold water on this a little bit, redguards are not *** nords, orcs are just giant *** goblins, and imperials are sure as hell not a part of the cool daedra races.

geonsocal · December 2016

@isailandshootub17_ESO ...that was great writing...

for those of us whom like to read and come here to not only learn some better ways for dispatching others, but, to be entertained - thank you...that was really good...

great point about the performance of your character switching up so dramatically from patch to patch...I had a lot of wtf moments from that...

the first thing that stuck out to me when I logged into eso was all the other players- and, the mad rush going through delves to try to find chests or even kill an npc (when i'm in 1T now I try to hang out in some of the less popular maps - always plenty of "me" time in shadowfen)...

keep up the writing- hope to read some more of your threads in the future...

isailandshootub17_ESO · December 2016

nordsavage wrote: »

You can play ESO perfectly well as a single-player game, like Skyrim but with built-in chat so you can talk to your friends as you play. You only NEED to group with people for group dungeons and Trials. You can go around talking to the NPCs and treating the PCs as NPCs who weren't programmed with dialogue, if you want. "Jumping and twirling like ice-skating princesses with destruction staves"? Eh, these poor folk are possessed by Sheogorath. Let's hope they find their way to a Healer or the Shivering Isles soon.

Thank you, that was in fact insightful for me. Sort of jsut ignore others while I'm focusing on questing, and you've even offered me a legitimate lore friendly approach to do so concerning the mad god.

isailandshootub17_ESO · December 2016

AuldWolf wrote: »

I'm not going to lie. Some of this is why I can't stop avoiding ESO, lately. Sun & Moon, hopefully co-op Stardew Valley soon, Astroneer is coming up and I'm looking forward to that, and eventually I'm just dreaming I'll be able to play Skywind co-op with my partner. I'm just not interested in the G words of MMOs: Gear, Grinding, and Gambling. Everything is about the three G's. Why am I playing ESO? I like the thievery, it's pretty fun, but that's not the main reason. I think it's the world they've weaved, the characters, the ongoing plotlines, how each zone tells its own self-contained story and so on. I love the writing.

I'd love the writing so, so much more if it were in a co-op single player RPG. ESO is just teaching me that there'll never be anything in an MMO for me. It's also screaming that other developers should notice what's going on here, and how high the demand is for truly well-written, immersive, first person RPGs. What I wouldn't give for a co-op version of New Vegas, you've no idea. Hardly the perfect game, sure, but it has some pretty nice writing. Moreso than Skyrim or Fallout 4, anyway, at least in my opinion. And the content is more intelligent, after all, and there's more freedom on offer. Don't want to kill anyone in New Vegas? Sneak around, be smart, communicate, think, observe! In Fallout 4, you're just killing everyone. Boring. And the amusing contradiction in Bethesda's games is that if you can't stand someone and you wish you could assassinate them (Maven Black-briar et al), then you can't, because they're flagged as essential and necessary for some quest. Bad design, Bethesda. Bad design.

ESO isn't so great in the design category either, I'll be honest. In some respects, it's absolutely terrible. I've written numerous threads highlighting many of the problems this game has, and they are many. The three G's being a huge part of it. It's why in many ways I still prefer The Secret World to ESO, even though I have a stronger preference for ESO's world and writing overall. In TSW, I'm solving puzzles rather than grinding to get piece four of that five piece set. It's a much, much more compelling experience. Really, if TSW hadn't been horror (which bothers my partner, a lot), I doubt I'd ever have dropped it for ESO.

This is all very unflattering, I know. The galling thing is, though? I love ESO. It has potential. Like I've said, there's just so much good writing there. ESO is just one of those examples of a game you play because you find the immersion compelling, the world invigorating, and the writing enthralling. Because the gameplay can range from good (the thievery stuffs) to utter gobshite (world bosses, forced grouping, et cetera).

So I can definitely understand the sentiment. And it's why I find myself playing ESO less and less.

Thank you for the articulate response. You were able to coalesce my fractional meanderings of thought into a seamless silk garment. Bless you and your partner. Happy story'ing.

isailandshootub17_ESO · December 2016

OOJIMMY wrote: »

All the skyrim kids think eso was supposed to be skyrim 2. That's like getting mad at halo wars for not playing like halo.
Skyrim was trash compared oblivion and morrowwind. The only thing Skyrim had was pretty graphics and more than 6 voice actors.

I appreciate the response, but yours, like the several before you that have said almost the exact same thing, are actually setting up a straw man. I don't think any of the changes I mentioned in the OP (sorry it was so long) would require ESO to be Skyrim 2. Many of the changes would be possible, at least in part. I don't think the desire for a more immersive atmosphere in many respects is impossible to achieve in an MMO. I certainly like ESO, just mentioning some of the aspects which I consider weaknesses and offering some thoughts on fixing or just putting out there for others to offer their constructions. There have been a few good suggestions so far in the comments, imho.

isailandshootub17_ESO · December 2016

Snit wrote: »

isailandshootub17_ESO wrote: »

Do you remember the feeling of sneaking into a necromancer's tower to recover books for the College of Winterhold with your sneaky archer?

The best part about the OP is the assumption that everyone plays a Sneaky Archer in Skyrim (I did... and I bet you did, too).

As for the rest, I agree with some of your points. In particular, the 'guardrail to guardrail' approach to balance provides more uncertainty and instability than necessary -- Wrobel and team don't tweak, they up-end.

I disagree with much else. For example, the 'many useless sets' point is accurate, but I think that's a byproduct of ZOS's determination to allow niche builds by offering a bazilllion potential gear combinations. As a build-tweaker, I love that, and I accept that some of those sets will be a lot better than others.

Mostly, though, I'd suggest you focus. Feedback is useless when delivered via shotgun. "Here are twenty mostly unrelated points delivered with passion" is more venting than feedback (as you acknowledge when you describe it as a rant).

Indeed. Thanks for the engagement. I realized it was fairly incoherent as to the whole, and I actually considered mentioning just one thing. The rest just sort of came out involuntarily as do sorrowful rays from an empty harvest moon, or atonal limemricks from Lurbuk.

isailandshootub17_ESO · December 2016

Darkstorne wrote: »

BlackSparrow wrote: »

...Dude. Do you realize how bad a 20-minute respawn timer would be in a multiplayer game? How quickly people would exploit that to get the mobs right when they pop? How few casual players would ever get to kill anything at all, because all the vets are sweeping through the area, grinding mobs? And what about mobs that drop materials? Would each wolf carry 30 pieces of leather? What about the crafters who just don't get to their mobs on time? No.... a 20-minute spawn timer is just a bad, bad idea.

Easily solved by solo phasing, or highly infrequent phasing with other players. Keep dolmens and world boss areas as group phase locations, as well as group dungeons, but make the vast majority of dungeons and exterior environments solo experiences. That way mobs can be much more spaced out, designed to interact with and patrol the world instead of staying fixed to their spots 30 yards away from each other as exp pinatas. Rather than having zones swarming with mobs everywhere you look, they could far less common if there are no players to compete with for exp, and that way they could also provide a lot more exp per kill. The game could integrate spaces where scenery isn't interrupted by mobs, and you won't keep seeing packs of them respawn under your nose.

That's (sort of) the approach Destiny took. Not solo phasing, but encountering players outside of the city hub is much rarer than in traditional MMOs. It builds a much more spacious atmosphere, boosts immersion when you're questing (so when that quest NPC acts like you're the only adventurer around, you could believe him for once), and all without killing the social aspects of MMOs since they're found in cities and group dungeons/PVP zones.

It amazes me the number of people who think MMO must mean a game swarming with players at every turn.

Very well put. What I failed to tell, you illucidate well. I think I'll give this Destiny a try. Is it the sort of game which has a lot of story as has ESO?

isailandshootub17_ESO · December 2016

geonsocal wrote: »

@isailandshootub17_ESO ...that was great writing...

for those of us whom like to read and come here to not only learn some better ways for dispatching others, but, to be entertained - thank you...that was really good...

great point about the performance of your character switching up so dramatically from patch to patch...I had a lot of wtf moments from that...

the first thing that stuck out to me when I logged into eso was all the other players- and, the mad rush going through delves to try to find chests or even kill an npc (when i'm in 1T now I try to hang out in some of the less popular maps - always plenty of "me" time in shadowfen)...

keep up the writing- hope to read some more of your threads in the future...

I'm glad you were entertained. In truth, that was partly the point.

Delta1038 · December 2016

I do look back at skyrim fondly with a lot of fun, epic, and goofy memories. But I also have been slightly more disappointed with each from after Morrowind. Oblivion and Skyrim were both excellent games that I played a crap ton out of, I just miss the absurdly large variety of weapon, armor, and skill options from the earlier days. I also miss how things were actually a threat, sadly skyrim had basically two modes, easy or tedious to me. With ESO it is so drastically different and yet familiar that I am doing just fine with it. I wouldn't say I like or dislike it more than Skyrim, just differently. Honestly I miss from Skyrim the more subtle things that make it such a fun single player that are missing in ESO (for obvious reasons I know) and I do prefer how in ESO there are enemies who actually feel like a substantial threat. So I sort of shift back and forth with it.

*Why* ESO doesn't smell like Skyrim

Why ESO doesn't smell like Skyrim