Warden Class (Theorycrafting!)

Cheveyo · December 2016

uniq_faznrb18_ESO wrote: »

Oh I'm not shoehorning any race to a certain class, it's just that thematically, the nords will be the best fit, just as orcs or to a certain extent the imperials in terms of the conan type babarian. But it doesn't mean it is the best race for it. Most importantly, if the class is magicka based, than magicka attuned races would benefit, vice versa.

In lore however, you have the Ternion monks, who embodies the old ways, shamanistic ways of the nords. You also have the wyrd sisters within the covenant dealing with the natural 'spirits' of the land. You also have arguably, the best animal handlers within the dominion, the bosmer.

Both the bosmer and the Ternion monks revere animal spirits, the Wolf being a common spirit. This is where I sought inspiration of sorts with the Animal Companion skill line. (and the fact I keep repeating the quests from both these zones makes me biased towards them lol)

Well, the Green Wardens are Bosmer, so I'm not sure about Nords being the best fit.
I assumed the class would have to do with them.

RavenSworn · December 2016

Cheveyo wrote: »

uniq_faznrb18_ESO wrote: »

Oh I'm not shoehorning any race to a certain class, it's just that thematically, the nords will be the best fit, just as orcs or to a certain extent the imperials in terms of the conan type babarian. But it doesn't mean it is the best race for it. Most importantly, if the class is magicka based, than magicka attuned races would benefit, vice versa.

In lore however, you have the Ternion monks, who embodies the old ways, shamanistic ways of the nords. You also have the wyrd sisters within the covenant dealing with the natural 'spirits' of the land. You also have arguably, the best animal handlers within the dominion, the bosmer.

Both the bosmer and the Ternion monks revere animal spirits, the Wolf being a common spirit. This is where I sought inspiration of sorts with the Animal Companion skill line. (and the fact I keep repeating the quests from both these zones makes me biased towards them lol)

Well, the Green Wardens are Bosmer, so I'm not sure about Nords being the best fit.
I assumed the class would have to do with them.

Ah you are quite right! Totally forgotten about them.

Redn3ck · December 2016

UppGRAYxDD wrote: »

IDK why eveyone is so opposed to new classes? The game has been out for years now and a natural progression towards new races or classes is natural. Now I know that there is a balance issue currently, but there is a larger issue with players leaving due to boredom. I think introducing new races or classes would bolster player population significantly and I see this change coming probably sooner then later. After all, game developers/producers/shareholders are here to make money...

But spending the ~5-6 hours it takes to grind a new toon to end game level sounds fun?? Or re-running the quests to do it the hard way?....Hell no, new classes or races won't bring the masses back (lore driven players maybe, but they're probably happy on skyrim or oblivion anyways). Fixing PVP is what will bring back and keep competitive players around. So would adding over the top incentives for being on pve leaderboards (BIG time gold rewards, gold temper drops, the Maelstrom weapon and trait you actually want....). Even adding over the top rewards for PVP (tempers or capturing a mine/mill etc) would be a welcomed change form the "ring round the rosey" the is claiming Emp in cyrodiil.

lucky_Sage · December 2016

if they put in a melee frost mage id be really sad 3 out of 4 classes can already be a melee magicka class don't make another one

stimpy986b14_ESO · December 2016

uniq_faznrb18_ESO wrote: »

I’ve not seen a class thread that really has a proper layout to its game mechanics.

Read one of my necromancer class threads

RavenSworn · December 2016

Redn3ck wrote: »

UppGRAYxDD wrote: »

IDK why eveyone is so opposed to new classes? The game has been out for years now and a natural progression towards new races or classes is natural. Now I know that there is a balance issue currently, but there is a larger issue with players leaving due to boredom. I think introducing new races or classes would bolster player population significantly and I see this change coming probably sooner then later. After all, game developers/producers/shareholders are here to make money...

But spending the ~5-6 hours it takes to grind a new toon to end game level sounds fun?? Or re-running the quests to do it the hard way?....Hell no, new classes or races won't bring the masses back (lore driven players maybe, but they're probably happy on skyrim or oblivion anyways). Fixing PVP is what will bring back and keep competitive players around. So would adding over the top incentives for being on pve leaderboards (BIG time gold rewards, gold temper drops, the Maelstrom weapon and trait you actually want....). Even adding over the top rewards for PVP (tempers or capturing a mine/mill etc) would be a welcomed change form the "ring round the rosey" the is claiming Emp in cyrodiil.

While I do agree the PvP scene needs a huge balance patch, I don't see why this patch couldn't be put in together. Housing in the future will be added together with a balance patch as well.. But I don't see many people realising that.

On a side note, spellcrafting back in 2015 was slated to be a feature. This might help with frost damage based spells or changing spells to suit the sets we have now like ice furnace or noble dualist but honestly, it sounds way to op to me imo. Was looking through the video and a spell could be given this upgrade to be an ultimate.. How are they going to balance that in PvP? It might work and sound dandy in pve but PvP.. That's a whole new ball game.

In all of the mmos I play, all of them are affected by PvP players wanting balance and screwed to a point where pve is wrecked by PvP players wanting to change skills and sets and even how certain mechanics work. Only a handful managed to separate that thin line by giving different gear to PvP and pve. In Eso case, I honestly believe that not giving PvP players access to pve proc gear and introducing different monster set that focuses on the PvP aspect will help alleviate the change.

Even taking away the cp at max level might help. It evens out the playing field imo. But... This is a discussion for a new class haha. And I wager the Warden might be the next big patch addition.

RavenSworn · December 2016

stimpy986b14_ESO wrote: »

uniq_faznrb18_ESO wrote: »

I’ve not seen a class thread that really has a proper layout to its game mechanics.

Read one of my necromancer class threads

Just did, respect. A necromancy skill line seems more viable than a class though. But awesome thread nonetheless.

datgladiatah · December 2016

I don't think there should be any classes. One should be able to access a select number of lines based on personal choices. Or access to all of them somehow. There has to be some reason they barely change anything about the classes. They're just not-elder scrolls. I'd love animal companions and a dedicated frost line. Just not through a new class. Why can't I just do it with anyone like a TES game? If they changed that it would truly be above the mmo spectrum

roigseguib16_ESO · December 2016

I get your point, aye

exeeter702 · December 2016

datgladiatah wrote: »

I don't think there should be any classes. One should be able to access a select number of lines based on personal choices. Or access to all of them somehow. There has to be some reason they barely change anything about the classes. They're just not-elder scrolls. I'd love animal companions and a dedicated frost line. Just not through a new class. Why can't I just do it with anyone like a TES game? If they changed that it would truly be above the mmo spectrum

Because this is an mmo. It would be a logistical nightmare in both developer balance and design. Not to mention this jsnt a single player game where one can hide behind the mantle of choose your own adventure regardless of how inefficient it may be. People will still find the best combinations and everhthing else becomes snowflake status and the illusion of choice eventually shaters. Having a class foundation afforded the developers the ability maintain a ruleset with clear definitions and guidelines. It allowed them to make sure players still have some form of choice between different avenues (for the most part ofc), while staying within a manageable game system.

Do you guys seriously think they didnt consider a classless environment for this game?

You cant have it both ways, TSW came close but that is an entriely different beast.

rteezy · December 2016

uniq_faznrb18_ESO wrote: »

Mr_Apollo wrote: »

ANOTHER thread for a class...specifically the Warden one that is focused on ice...how original, buddy, ill tell you what everyone (or most) will say and have said. Let ZOS first fix their classes, adding another class would break the little balance we have...the very fragile balance we have now would be broken with a new class. Let it be until all of them are balanced

Oh I'm not saying it's original, I'm just doing a lot of guesswork in the works. Wardens were a class in alpha, it was ditched and some of the abilities reworked into the other classes. It doesn't mean they can't do another one. Again, it's not about balancing what you have left.

It's about making sure that the pendulum swings as little as possible. True balance cannot be achieved until everyone uses the same weapons, same gear, same build. And that is not good in the longevity of the game itself be it PvP or pve.

But balance is another whole animal to deal with. Having a new class creates excitement, a spark of interest about the game. We have good populations across tamriel right now, take advantage of it. Housing is already coming around the corner, let's keep the ball rolling.

you are missing the point, the game balanced is borderline broken atm, and you want to add a brand new class and a number of new builds to the equation?

im even baffled they would put time into housing with the game in its current state...

roigseguib16_ESO · December 2016

exeeter702 wrote: »

datgladiatah wrote: »

I don't think there should be any classes. One should be able to access a select number of lines based on personal choices. Or access to all of them somehow. There has to be some reason they barely change anything about the classes. They're just not-elder scrolls. I'd love animal companions and a dedicated frost line. Just not through a new class. Why can't I just do it with anyone like a TES game? If they changed that it would truly be above the mmo spectrum

Because this is an mmo. It would be a logistical nightmare in both developer balance and design. Not to mention this jsnt a single player game where one can hide behind the mantle of choose your own adventure regardless of how inefficient it may be. People will still find the best combinations and everhthing else becomes snowflake status and the illusion of choice eventually shaters. Having a class foundation afforded the developers the ability maintain a ruleset with clear definitions and guidelines. It allowed them to make sure players still have some form of choice between different avenues (for the most part ofc), while staying within a manageable game system.

Do you guys seriously think they didnt consider a classless environment for this game?

You cant have it both ways, TSW came close but that is an entriely different beast.

Thank you for keeping people with their feet in the ground.

Lately I am quite often in the forums and I am facing a sad reality: people plays ESO expecting it to be a TES game with the inconvenience of it being MMO format whilst this is a full MMO that happens to be in a TES saga environment.

Bumblebeelzebub · December 2016

exeeter702 wrote: »

Not to mention this jsnt a single player game where one can hide behind the mantle of choose your own adventure regardless of how inefficient it may be. People will still find the best combinations and everhthing else becomes snowflake status and the illusion of choice eventually shaters.

The real illusion is the kind of perfect and evasive balance that min-maxers seem to pine for. Min-maxers will never have the same choices that the rest of us have, because of the limnitations they set upon themselves when they choose to optimize their builds. Most of us are happy to play sub-optimal builds, and I for one would like to see more of them.

A new class would inject a lot of fun into a game that's become stagnant for many of us.

exeeter702 · December 2016

Bumblebeelzebub wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Not to mention this jsnt a single player game where one can hide behind the mantle of choose your own adventure regardless of how inefficient it may be. People will still find the best combinations and everhthing else becomes snowflake status and the illusion of choice eventually shaters.

The real illusion is the kind of perfect and evasive balance that min-maxers seem to pine for. Min-maxers will never have the same choices that the rest of us have, because of the limnitations they set upon themselves when they choose to optimize their builds. Most of us are happy to play sub-optimal builds, and I for one would like to see more of them.

A new class would inject a lot of fun into a game that's become stagnant for many of us.

Despite what i said, i agree.

Adding a 5th class would hardly be a daunting task for the devs in regards to balance. I feel the warden in particular would perfectly fill the empty space for a lot of build concepts that are missing outside of various npcs in the game. I was genuinely disappointed when they revealed it was initially in the works and then scrapped.

My comment was in regards to the thought process some players have in thinking a universal skill / classless system would be beneficial or more ideal for this game, which i fundamentally disagree with.

exeeter702 · December 2016

rteezy wrote: »

uniq_faznrb18_ESO wrote: »

Mr_Apollo wrote: »

ANOTHER thread for a class...specifically the Warden one that is focused on ice...how original, buddy, ill tell you what everyone (or most) will say and have said. Let ZOS first fix their classes, adding another class would break the little balance we have...the very fragile balance we have now would be broken with a new class. Let it be until all of them are balanced

Oh I'm not saying it's original, I'm just doing a lot of guesswork in the works. Wardens were a class in alpha, it was ditched and some of the abilities reworked into the other classes. It doesn't mean they can't do another one. Again, it's not about balancing what you have left.

It's about making sure that the pendulum swings as little as possible. True balance cannot be achieved until everyone uses the same weapons, same gear, same build. And that is not good in the longevity of the game itself be it PvP or pve.

But balance is another whole animal to deal with. Having a new class creates excitement, a spark of interest about the game. We have good populations across tamriel right now, take advantage of it. Housing is already coming around the corner, let's keep the ball rolling.

you are missing the point, the game balanced is borderline broken atm, and you want to add a brand new class and a number of new builds to the equation?

im even baffled they would put time into housing with the game in its current state...

You are being very sensantional. The biggest issue which has already been addressed by the devs is the effectiveness of proc sets. Some builds are better then others but that hardly warrants a full stop on everything else. Pvp is half of the equation here, and while they do not always hit their mark, zos has seperate teams for each facet of the game and implementing a 5th class is hardly going to cause a *** of further imbalance that of which you are suggesting.

If there is one thing ive learned over the last 16 years of playing mmos its this - there will ALWAYS be a teir list in terms of effectiveness and performance in classes , skills, and group comps. You will never achieve absolute balance with a completely equal playing field. Understanding thst fact will allow you to appreciate more of what really goes on in said game and you will realize the pros handily outweigh the cons in this scenario.

Bumblebeelzebub · December 2016

exeeter702 wrote: »

My comment was in regards to the thought process some players have in thinking a universal skill / classless system would be beneficial or more ideal for this game, which i fundamentally disagree with.

Ah! I totally agree. At this point I think that introducing a new universal skill system would be way too disruptive for most people to tolerate. Myself included.

Half the reason these threads become tedious is because the argument for keeping a new class out of the game always feels a bit circular. If all that's at stake is a balanced meta (which most agree we already lack), then there's nothing to lose by adding another class that could potentially unbalance the meta.

RavenSworn · December 2016

exeeter702 wrote: »

datgladiatah wrote: »

I don't think there should be any classes. One should be able to access a select number of lines based on personal choices. Or access to all of them somehow. There has to be some reason they barely change anything about the classes. They're just not-elder scrolls. I'd love animal companions and a dedicated frost line. Just not through a new class. Why can't I just do it with anyone like a TES game? If they changed that it would truly be above the mmo spectrum

Because this is an mmo. It would be a logistical nightmare in both developer balance and design. Not to mention this jsnt a single player game where one can hide behind the mantle of choose your own adventure regardless of how inefficient it may be. People will still find the best combinations and everhthing else becomes snowflake status and the illusion of choice eventually shaters. Having a class foundation afforded the developers the ability maintain a ruleset with clear definitions and guidelines. It allowed them to make sure players still have some form of choice between different avenues (for the most part ofc), while staying within a manageable game system.

Do you guys seriously think they didnt consider a classless environment for this game?

You cant have it both ways, TSW came close but that is an entriely different beast.

I've played TSW extensively for two years before I decided that while the game play and the dungeons are amazing, there was always this pressure to use the right weapons for the right circumstances, always. You were gimping yourself if you didn't and it just wasn't good for PvP or pve. It was also hell to balance the abilities, given that most were just not seeing much use aside from the occasional situation.

Anti_Virus · December 2016

Redn3ck wrote: »

UppGRAYxDD wrote: »

IDK why eveyone is so opposed to new classes? The game has been out for years now and a natural progression towards new races or classes is natural. Now I know that there is a balance issue currently, but there is a larger issue with players leaving due to boredom. I think introducing new races or classes would bolster player population significantly and I see this change coming probably sooner then later. After all, game developers/producers/shareholders are here to make money...

But spending the ~5-6 hours it takes to grind a new toon to end game level sounds fun?? Or re-running the quests to do it the hard way?....Hell no, new classes or races won't bring the masses back (lore driven players maybe, but they're probably happy on skyrim or oblivion anyways). Fixing PVP is what will bring back and keep competitive players around. So would adding over the top incentives for being on pve leaderboards (BIG time gold rewards, gold temper drops, the Maelstrom weapon and trait you actually want....). Even adding over the top rewards for PVP (tempers or capturing a mine/mill etc) would be a welcomed change form the "ring round the rosey" the is claiming Emp in cyrodiil.

You don't have to make a new class if you don't want to, you're not forced to do it.

RavenSworn · February 2017

A bear pet tank. Can this work? What would the passives be? would the Frost tree be tanking too? if so, then what is the current dps skill line for Wardens?

So many questions!

actosh · February 2017

New Skill lines would be better than new classes.

Mr_Apollo · February 2017

I'm quite worried about that Bear Ultimate to be honest. It has a morph that makes it respawn when it dies (since its a toggle). So worried about an invincible bear in PVP (Battlegrounds and Duels and Cyrodill)

RavenSworn · February 2017

Mr_Apollo wrote: »

I'm quite worried about that Bear Ultimate to be honest. It has a morph that makes it respawn when it dies (since its a toggle). So worried about an invincible bear in PVP (Battlegrounds and Duels and Cyrodill)

I'm not too sure, if you kill the caster, that would end it yeah. No caster, no ultimate, no bear. Really would love to see abit of the skill line. A short preview would work even.