Upcoming PvP Re-Balance / List of Broken Stuff

pattyLtd · December 2016

The game and with that i mean its code seems to be a complete mess if its possible to break something simplistic as logging out with an update that adds crown crates. At this point a complete rework of anything especially CP tree would be a bad idea.

I agree that they have to do something but small changes can be a big difference with less risk of breaking something else in the progress.

pcar944 · December 2016

with the way ZoS does things, mDK will be OP

I really wish they would re-visit armors and bonuses 5pc sets grant - the armor passives for heavy armor - also SnB passives and how they act

Magicka Templar healers, nothing like coming against one, who has a destro bar just building his ultimate and outhealing whatever it is you are trying to do

tanks that can take 20-30 people

perma-stun unable to break out of CC

stun/cc immediately after breaking out of one

more indepth since I play a Magicka Nightblade (mostly ganker, but I'm trying to break away from that) - Impale just doesn't work 95% of a time on people who don't even have any health left ... lotus fan not doing full damage .. same thing for surprise attack

and evasion Shuffle grants, that 20% chance is always dodge dodge dodge dodge dodge dodge dodge dodge and then they dodge roll and sprint away for a bit then they come back

I'd love to see something where if you keep spamming 1 skill the cost of it keeps going up - like the Sorcerer's Streak

adding town points and district points to cap was a great idea, but they could definitely add some other stuff on the map for people to go fight over outside of keeps (make these objectives give points like resources)

my biggest thing is - the map for Cyrodil is, actually, pretty damn big, and a lot of times you are just riding through - and there are a lot of open spaces etc - lots of houses with people in them and so on - add some daily quests to them, or make little settlements around those houses or something - something to deconjest areas like Chalman/Alessia Bridge/Ash

and for crying out loud, do something about population, I know its AvAvA but SO many times either of 3 alliances gets punished/farmed by the other 2 ...

Ishammael · December 2016

Akinos wrote: »

Make these templar skills and their morphs worth using.
1. Backlash
2. Eclipse
3. Healing Ritual

That would be great!

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

How about infernal guardian miraculously procing against those quietly stealthed.

Viper's sting procing with ranged attacks.

Yeah I forgot about these!

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Velidreth's 3 poison balls always flying out.... Simply because they are annoying to always see and never hit anyone paying attention anyways.

Agreed -- this is totally annoying!

timidobserver wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

5. Hurricane / Imploision / Dark Deal -- is super strong. Probably needs to be toned down just a bit. I don't like the Templar dmg proc either.

I hear a lot of Templar whining, but I've never heard anyone complain about burning light before

I don't like RNG in PvP.

Still pretty funny to see someone wanting burning light of all things nerfed. It's a nice passive, but it doesn't cause any imbalance in the game.

Its not overpowered, you're right. I just don't like the concept. Replace it with something else.

aidenmoore wrote: »

Treat Mist Form just like Roll Dodge and Streak too!

You already get 0 regen while in mist form... so probably don't need to do this.

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

Akinos wrote: »

Make these templar skills and their morphs worth using.
1. Backlash
2. Eclipse
3. Healing Ritual

Should remove the snare every time you cast solar barrage to.

Yes please!

Derra · December 2016

Ishammael wrote: »

7. Unblockable -- shouldn't be a thing. Dawnbreaker, Eye of the Storm, Fear, Petrify, etc. No skillful counter is horrible. Please make meteor reflectable again!

Can you please point me the direction of block counters a sorc can access?

If you dare to mention rune prison (which ironically does not break on dots - a dmg form sorcerers do not have in class access to) - i swear i´m gonna sacrifice a kitten to the dark overlord of balance himself Mr. Wrobbels.

Edit: I think block being an unskillful mechanic needs unskillful counters. If you´d have to be reactive with blocking (like with dodging) it would be a whole different story.

Isellskooma · December 2016

Nerf heavy

incognito222 · December 2016

Not sure if someone said this already. Going to say it again to make sure.

Being in mist form does not render you immune to snares.

arkansas_ESO · December 2016

Qbiken wrote: »

Implosion, broken??? Pick one. A 3% chance to to 15k dmg when under 15% health. Please enlighten me how this is an issue in PvP?? hint: it isnt´t, storm skilline (or whatever it´s called) is one of the most well-designed skillines in the game, no need for chances here.

A small chance to immediately vaporize somebody at low health, even if you're completely on the defensive or running away, is pretty poorly designed IMO.

arkansas_ESO · December 2016

From the perspective of a magic NB:

1. Impale is terrible. It's execute threshold is lower than the 2H execute and Jesus Beam, it's both dodgeable and reflectable, and it doesn't have a proc like Mage's Fury so it can't be used to set up burst.
2. Melee magic NB has been dead since the nerf to Proximity Detonation. Concealed Weapon costs too much and it's secondary effect (increased movement speed in stealth) is terrible compared to Surprise Attack's (Major Fracture.) Merciless Resolve and it's proc Assassin's Will work okay for burst as a ranged magic NB, but for melee NB it's too difficult to proc, and often won't hit for enough.
3. Reveal abilities like Piercing Mark, Revealing Flare, and Magelight made sense when few classes had AOE, but now stamina sorcs have a huge AOE that moves with them (Hurricane), Templars have a huge AOE they're encouraged to stand in (Ritual of Retribution), Caltrops is still commonplace, etc. Either remove these reveal abilities or make AOE not pull you out of cloak.

From the perspective of a magic pet sorc:
1. Don't make me slot my summons on both bars to not have them despawn whenever I bar swap.
2. Pets are too easy to kill. I've had multiple stam characters absolutely tear through my pets in a 1v1 when I'm doing nothing but spamming Hardened Ward to try and keep them alive.
3. Pets are too easy to ignore. Make people actually care about killing my pets, instead of just ignoring them while they lay into me.
4. The magicka return from the Rebate passive is far, far too low. Would much rather see this changed to a flat increase to magicka regen per pet active.
5. Bound Aegis is nice, but I shouldn't have to give up two slots for it (see number one)

In general:
1. There needs to be root immunity in the same way there's CC immunity, and it needs to be widely accessible for both magicka and stamina. I can't spam Mass Hysteria to permanently CC somebody, I shouldn't be able to spam Encase to permanently root somebody.
2. Poisons still need to be removed
3. I shouldn't be able to spam one skill like DK's reflect and completely nullify a ranged build like magic NB or magic sorc
4. If magicka can't have a magic damage version of Dawnbreaker then stamina shouldn't get the empower from Mage's Guild
5. Major Evasion needs to be removed from the game

Nifty2g · December 2016

fix the *** snares.

Ishammael · December 2016

Derra wrote: »

If you´d have to be reactive with blocking (like with dodging) it would be a whole different story.

Yes, this is what I would prefer.

However, mDK (and to a less extent Templar) in particular suffers heavily because it can't move around like a Sorc or a NB, necessitating block just to stay alive. You just can't play a DK like a Sorc -- full offensive builds like the common Lich + Spinners simply don't work on a DK in an open world setting.

I would only agree to a block change if other mechanics or skills changed likewise -- dmg would have to come down across the board, changes to sustain, etc.

Anyway, streak goes through block at the moment, just like fear or petrify.

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Implosion, broken??? Pick one. A 3% chance to to 15k dmg when under 15% health. Please enlighten me how this is an issue in PvP?? hint: it isnt´t, storm skilline (or whatever it´s called) is one of the most well-designed skillines in the game, no need for chances here.

A small chance to immediately vaporize somebody at low health, even if you're completely on the defensive or running away, is pretty poorly designed IMO.

Exactly.

Ishammael · December 2016

Nifty2g wrote: »

fix the *** snares.

yeah, this too!

pcar944 · December 2016

incognito222 wrote: »

Not sure if someone said this already. Going to say it again to make sure.

Being in mist form does not render you immune to snares.

so much of this

krim · December 2016

Ishammael wrote: »

3. Lag -- worse than it has ever been. Players and zergs have got to be steered away from keeps and major choke points.

The only way for this to happen is for there to be a new pvp zone with different objectives. I dont think you can ever spread players out in Cryodiil its the nature of the zone.

Derra · December 2016

Ishammael wrote: »

Anyway, streak goes through block at the moment, just like fear or petrify.

No. It does not. It did for one week when the changes to CC were on pts (which was over a year ago).

Don´t get me wrong - i agree that DK is not in the best spot at the moment. But block has very little counters in the game and the ones available are desperately needed for classes that don´t have a mechanic to break block (which sorc has not - and templar arguably aswell).

Ishammael · December 2016

Derra wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

Anyway, streak goes through block at the moment, just like fear or petrify.

No. It does not. It did for one week when the changes to CC were on pts (which was over a year ago).

Are you sure? I will have to test this rq. I could have sworn...

altemriel · December 2016

Ishammael wrote: »

In the spirit of one (last) gasp at PvP balance -- which we know is incoming 1st Quarter or so -- lets brainstorm for @Wrobel a good list of things to be worked on. Post the problem and a suggestion for how to fix it. These can be specific balance changes (like Proc Sets) or overall gameplay changes

I'll try to keep the top of the thread updated with good suggestions

I'll start with just a few

1. Proc Sets -- probably need a global cooldown to enforce players to use only one. Remove the RNG element.
2. Soft Caps -- Need to come back in a bad way. We have one-shot gank builds, 80k templars, unkillable blockers. Among other ridiculous setups. Some of this has got to give for the life of PvP. It is so bad right now. Hand-in-hand with this should be a complete re-work of CP trees to prevent infinite resources or low-regen builds.
3. Lag -- worse than it has ever been. Players and zergs have got to be steered away from keeps and major choke points.
4. Magicka DK -- make it great again! Three main suggestions: (1) magicka gap closer, (2) fix Dragon Blood, (3) major heroism.
5. Hurricane / Imploision / Dark Deal -- is super strong. Probably needs to be toned down just a bit. I don't like the Templar dmg proc either.
6. RNG -- Major Evasion I would love to see re-worked to something not random.
7. Unblockable -- shouldn't be a thing. Dawnbreaker, Eye of the Storm, Fear, Petrify, etc. No skillful counter is horrible. Please make meteor reflectable again!

cloak broken

LeifErickson · December 2016

Joy_Division wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

Fix wings.
Fix mist form.
Fix cloak.
Fix clouding swarm.
Fix gap closers.
Fix willows path.
Did I forget something?

Dragon Blood.

Dragon blood isn't broken to my knowledge. All of the things I listed are actually broken.

If you are going to claim Dragon Blood isn't broken, then Mist Form and Gap Closers are not broken either.

Dragon blood isn't broken. Just because an ability is utter trash, does not mean that it isn't working as intended. When I gap close into a load screen or am stuck in place while in mist form from snares, that is broken.

Manoekin · December 2016

Derra wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

Anyway, streak goes through block at the moment, just like fear or petrify.

No. It does not. It did for one week when the changes to CC were on pts (which was over a year ago).

Don´t get me wrong - i agree that DK is not in the best spot at the moment. But block has very little counters in the game and the ones available are desperately needed for classes that don´t have a mechanic to break block (which sorc has not - and templar arguably aswell).

Correct. I'm pretty sure it was intended too until the QQ came in.

Agree with everyone on snares. Several times when pvping I'll just take a moment to complain how it feels that every ability used in Cyro either snares or roots. I use an ice staff because snares/roots are ridiculously OP, but it is really awful. It happens fairly regularly that as a magicka temp I will get snare/root/debuff spammed so badly that I can't even cleanse them all 5 at a time before they are all reapplied. It's almost impossible to pvp as magicka without mistform sometimes.

On the topic of mistform I kind of agree something needs to be done about it in multiple ways. One, it shouldn't be slowed by gap closers. Two, I don't care if it stops your magicka regen because if you are in heavy you get most of the cost back for each cast from the heavy passive. That plus pots and other forms of magicka restore (desert rose)... who the hell is running out of magicka in mistform? The only time people using mist die is if they can't get LOS, they get gap close spammed until the zerg catches up, or they get CCed inbetween casts miraculously. I would only put it slightly below major evasion and destro ult as far as abilities over performing go.

Major Evasion just needs to be straight up 20% to dodge each individual attack. Right now it is 20% chance to proc an i-frame (immunity frame) where you are immune to the targeted damage for about a whole second. In a 1v1 you are kinda screwing yourself by weaving because if your weave procs the i-frame your ability right after it will miss. In a 1vX situation this mechanic causes major evasion to over perform by astronomical levels. 10 players attacking you sounds like a bad thing, but you're pretty much guaranteed with 10 people attacking you to proc that 20% chance. Once that happens all those 10 people miss. Of course randomly you will get a bunch of attacks that hit in succession and die, but that is actually the ability working as it should not as it does.

NBrookus · December 2016

Ishammael wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

If you´d have to be reactive with blocking (like with dodging) it would be a whole different story.

Yes, this is what I would prefer.

However, mDK (and to a less extent Templar) in particular suffers heavily because it can't move around like a Sorc or a NB, necessitating block just to stay alive. You just can't play a DK like a Sorc -- full offensive builds like the common Lich + Spinners simply don't work on a DK in an open world setting.

I would only agree to a block change if other mechanics or skills changed likewise -- dmg would have to come down across the board, changes to sustain, etc.

Anyway, streak goes through block at the moment, just like fear or petrify.

Curse as well.

mDKs mostly permablock for the same reason sorcs keep recasting their shields. You can't reactively block or shield against attacks which never even render due to skilled animation cancelling or lag or both. When 2 or 3 undefended attacks can kill you -- some of which are invisibly applied like Viper -- dropping your defenses is not viable unless your enemy is running away or in full defense mode.

I agree with the desire for reactive gameplay, but you can't have reactive based defense at the same time you have high passive proc damage and skills like EotS that have no defensive counter.

NBrookus · December 2016

Broken item:

Fear's ~1 sec animation window where you can't CC break. And the fact it sometimes can't be broken at all.

Ishammael · December 2016

Manoekin wrote: »

Agree with everyone on snares. Several times when pvping I'll just take a moment to complain how it feels that every ability used in Cyro either snares or roots. I use an ice staff because snares/roots are ridiculously OP, but it is really awful. It happens fairly regularly that as a magicka temp I will get snare/root/debuff spammed so badly that I can't even cleanse them all 5 at a time before they are all reapplied. It's almost impossible to pvp as magicka without mistform sometimes.

Agree here, 100%.

Manoekin wrote: »

On the topic of mistform I kind of agree something needs to be done about it in multiple ways. One, it shouldn't be slowed by gap closers. Two, I don't care if it stops your magicka regen because if you are in heavy you get most of the cost back for each cast from the heavy passive. That plus pots and other forms of magicka restore (desert rose)... who the hell is running out of magicka in mistform? The only time people using mist die is if they can't get LOS, they get gap close spammed until the zerg catches up, or they get CCed inbetween casts miraculously. I would only put it slightly below major evasion and destro ult as far as abilities over performing go.

Agreed that Mist Form is very powerful. It is worth noting that you also cant get healed or do anything else while in it. Some changes need to be made to fix gap closer and root spam, but I'm not exactly sure how these should be made with respect to mist form. Definitely open to suggestions

RE: overperforming skills. I know I'm going to get a lot of hate for it, but I still think Radiant Destruction overperforms. I play a Templar regularly and I still laugh at people I beam. Maybe not at the level of EoS, but a ranged, undodgeable, double execute seems excessive. It gets compounded by group play whereby you a fighting someone and his buddy puts a beam on you so the instant you drop below 30% or so you just die.

Manoekin wrote: »

Major Evasion just needs to be straight up 20% to dodge each individual attack. Right now it is 20% chance to proc an i-frame (immunity frame) where you are immune to the targeted damage for about a whole second. In a 1v1 you are kinda screwing yourself by weaving because if your weave procs the i-frame your ability right after it will miss. In a 1vX situation this mechanic causes major evasion to over perform by astronomical levels. 10 players attacking you sounds like a bad thing, but you're pretty much guaranteed with 10 people attacking you to proc that 20% chance. Once that happens all those 10 people miss. Of course randomly you will get a bunch of attacks that hit in succession and die, but that is actually the ability working as it should not as it does.

Your suggestion for evasion is good. The other way to go would be to simply make it 1 in 5 attacks, regardless of when they land. Then it is predictable for both the defender and attacking player.

Joy_Division · December 2016

LeifErickson wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

Fix wings.
Fix mist form.
Fix cloak.
Fix clouding swarm.
Fix gap closers.
Fix willows path.
Did I forget something?

Dragon Blood.

Dragon blood isn't broken to my knowledge. All of the things I listed are actually broken.

If you are going to claim Dragon Blood isn't broken, then Mist Form and Gap Closers are not broken either.

Dragon blood isn't broken. Just because an ability is utter trash, does not mean that it isn't working as intended. When I gap close into a load screen or am stuck in place while in mist form from snares, that is broken.

Mist Form snare from gap closers WAI unfortunately.

pcar944 · December 2016

they will never fix magblade

Sugaroverdose · December 2016

Ishammael wrote: »

In the spirit of one (last) gasp at PvP balance -- which we know is incoming 1st Quarter or so -- lets brainstorm for @Wrobel a good list of things to be worked on. Post the problem and a suggestion for how to fix it. These can be specific balance changes (like Proc Sets) or overall gameplay changes

I'll try to keep the top of the thread updated with good suggestions

I'll start with just a few

1. Proc Sets -- probably need a global cooldown to enforce players to use only one. Remove the RNG element.
2. Soft Caps -- Need to come back in a bad way. We have one-shot gank builds, 80k templars, unkillable blockers. Among other ridiculous setups. Some of this has got to give for the life of PvP. It is so bad right now. Hand-in-hand with this should be a complete re-work of CP trees to prevent infinite resources or low-regen builds.
3. Lag -- worse than it has ever been. Players and zergs have got to be steered away from keeps and major choke points.
4. Magicka DK -- make it great again! Three main suggestions: (1) magicka gap closer, (2) fix Dragon Blood, (3) major heroism.
5. Hurricane / Imploision / Dark Deal -- is super strong. Probably needs to be toned down just a bit. I don't like the Templar dmg proc either.
6. RNG -- Major Evasion I would love to see re-worked to something not random.
7. Unblockable -- shouldn't be a thing. Dawnbreaker, Eye of the Storm, Fear, Petrify, etc. No skillful counter is horrible. Please make meteor reflectable again!

4. Please, don't, it still requires some skill to play this class.
7. Huh? Pertify is only one useful mDK CC and it does not stun, but disorients giving small shield(2k by tooltip) to target. So it must not be touched

Drummerx04 wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

aidenmoore wrote: »

Treat Mist Form just like Roll Dodge and Streak too!

what, no. your magicka regen is disabled while in mist. it doesn't need anything else.

i would say make major expedition purge snares. then maybe magicka users wouldn't need to be shoehorned into mist.

Actually this would be fantastic assuming you mean that casting any skill that provides major expedition would purge snares rather than simply having the buff making you immune.

Had a group member get root spammed at Alessia bridge as a mNB without mistform. There was pretty much no way to get her out of that one.

So now whole soft-cc system must be reworked because friend of yours didn't make solid build? Get purge and spam it.

Greenwood1900 · December 2016

Major Evasion in player who specs tank.

I honestly don't understand how after decades of RPG games they can commit such design mistake.

Dodging attacks is a rogue thing. Could work for a berserker if you want. But someone in heavy armor should not be allowed to have a high chance of dodging attacks. They already have armor and block, they can't have passive dodge too.

As you see, the game is broken in many levels, and is not fun anymore.

Adenoma · December 2016

@Ishammael , it would be cool if you maintained a list of reasonable "wants" in the first post.

I'll throw in what I've thought are big issues:

1.) Magicka DK fixes - for an ult dependent class it needs to outclass NBs for ult gain. Dragonsblood needs a fix. I think that there is cool room for minor expedition with wings (which also need the double tax from CP and resists fixed so it actually becomes a damage source). Otherwise, it'd be amazing to have a DOT-based execute. I don't want major changes - just small tweaks.

2.) Eye of the Storm - I use this and it feels unfair. I would agree that unblockable damage should be removed, but unblockable CC should not. Fear is buggy, but @Manoekin is correct that we need a way to drop block on perma-block builds.

3.) Gap closer snare - needs to be removed. I hate dying in mistform because I've got 6 people gap closing me.

4.) Templar purge - needs to have the cost increased. It's an absurdly cheap hard answer to many builds.

5.) proc sets - they need to have a flat damage reduction. I don't like the idea of converting them to DOTs and keeping the same damage output. Basically, this just makes it easier for most classes to heal through and gives templars a hard answer that invalidates those sets. Remove the snare from Tremorscale.

6.) Resource CP - they need to have reduced effects. It's unreasonable that I can never run out of resources with as low recovery as I run. This game needs to return to a format where you can build to sustain or build to burst. It's silly that we're able to do both.

7.) Fix Willow's Path - this should be our route to huge sustain, not CP.

8.) Remove or nerf major evasion - as a magDK main I never want to see major evasion added back to cinderstorm either.

9.) Put soft-caps back in. Please, god.

10.) reduce the resource return on Dark Deal. I do not want to see battle roar nerfed more than it already has been. Frankly, stam sorcs sustain better than stamDKs on every race except Redguard.

11.) Nerf poisons. 60% increased cost is way too much. People thought 30% increased cost was too much, so why increase it when the player-base was opposed?

Do not change heavy armor. I think that there is a bias because of proc sets that heavy armor has exquisite damage output. Basically, procs give instant burst that can prevent healing (because they're now dead) and gives your build more sustain because you don't have to do additional rotations of skills to kill an opponent once they've healed.

Derra · December 2016

Why do people want the resource return removed on dark deal - it just needs to cost resources before (or at the middle of) the cast.

The only reason why it´s overperforming is that bashing it has literally no effect when the target is CC immune.

Stikato · December 2016

So...ZOS will follow their usual method of making a ton of large, untested changes all at once, and then refuse to make incremental adjustments?

It will be just as unbalanced as before, except with some new cheese added in.

The more they change the game the worse it gets.

Solariken · December 2016

Adenoma wrote: »

4.) Templar purge - needs to have the cost increased. It's an absurdly cheap hard answer to many builds.

I don't particularly like the idea of a cost increase @Adenoma, but here is an attempt to address the problem quoted:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/307753/cleansing-ritual-and-sacred-ground

Adenoma · December 2016

I disagree. I think that one way DPS is so high is that sustain is so infinite. I would prefer to reduce sustain and that would force DPS to lower.