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AWFULL pvp balance.
rteezy
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ok, so, despite the constant threads against proc sets, i expressed my opinion on how procs per se are not bad for pvp, they provide depth when it comes to gearing/building your toon.But i also said that the stronger a proc is the HARDER it should be to get it (and im nto tlaking about proc chance % only BUT also adding more conditions for the proc to happen, raising the skillcap of the user) AND the easier it should be to counter it, increasing the skillcap on both ends.Strong procs are not bad, but they need to require a much bigger player input AND have a severely increased "counter-ability"
BUT, my main point is that game DESIGN is overall bad.IT caters to very minimal player input, which greatly benefits the casual sub par player.Now, we know from several years of examples in other mmos that designing/catering to the "casual/subpar" player base ALWAYS has terrible results for the overall gameplay.
DESIGN needs to provide an exponential increase in both skillcap and skill ceiling, giving the game enough depth for players to ALWAYS imptove, both the average ones and the really good ones.
Simplifying the game, reducing player input and player decision making is ALWAYS bad, and it only gets worse with strong procs that require barely(if any) player input.
PVP should ALWAYS revolve around outplaying your opponent through your OWN actions and not because something procced and suddenly he has to go defensive..or is dead.
Some classes are design very poorly in this regard, to the point that they dotn even NEED the procs , and yet require VERY little player input to succeed.
Take this video for example.I know the guy is a notorious GOOD ganker, and whatever meta is in game he would always succeed at ganking.Now,, tell me, HOW can his opponents possibly counter him?Some die within 1 second.
Remember, if you have ZERO possibility to counter something, then the design is AWFULL and it doesnt cater to skillfull gameplay as pvp ALWAYS should.
PS-and no, being squishy or dieing easy when u get caught is NOT a justification for this kind of thing to happen...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OsEk9VTUbI&t=107s
BUT, my main point is that game DESIGN is overall bad.IT caters to very minimal player input, which greatly benefits the casual sub par player.Now, we know from several years of examples in other mmos that designing/catering to the "casual/subpar" player base ALWAYS has terrible results for the overall gameplay.
DESIGN needs to provide an exponential increase in both skillcap and skill ceiling, giving the game enough depth for players to ALWAYS imptove, both the average ones and the really good ones.
Simplifying the game, reducing player input and player decision making is ALWAYS bad, and it only gets worse with strong procs that require barely(if any) player input.
PVP should ALWAYS revolve around outplaying your opponent through your OWN actions and not because something procced and suddenly he has to go defensive..or is dead.
Some classes are design very poorly in this regard, to the point that they dotn even NEED the procs , and yet require VERY little player input to succeed.
Take this video for example.I know the guy is a notorious GOOD ganker, and whatever meta is in game he would always succeed at ganking.Now,, tell me, HOW can his opponents possibly counter him?Some die within 1 second.
Remember, if you have ZERO possibility to counter something, then the design is AWFULL and it doesnt cater to skillfull gameplay as pvp ALWAYS should.
PS-and no, being squishy or dieing easy when u get caught is NOT a justification for this kind of thing to happen...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OsEk9VTUbI&t=107s2
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SRIBES✭✭✭✭✭Hey, there are a few direct counters to ganking.
1) Slot radiant magelight
2) Mail the ganker 20k gold
But for real, ZOS needs to balance the game. I just gank because it's fun af
I've been lazy but I have soemthing in the works (;1 -
Qbiken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭PVP should ALWAYS revolve around outplaying your opponent through your OWN actions and not because something procced and suddenly he has to go defensive..or is dead.
Well, remove bloodspawn, valkyn, bogdan etc in that case.......
My biggest issue is why no one bother to find counters to the meta. And don´t say there is non, because there always is. As example (might not be the best since it´s kinda cheese as well, but anyway) I´ve found that blazing shieldplar is amazing counter to the procmeta. Using the undaunted boneshield and blazing shield works wonders against these gankers.0 -
Lucky28✭✭✭✭✭
✭PVP should ALWAYS revolve around outplaying your opponent through your OWN actions and not because something procced and suddenly he has to go defensive..or is dead.
Well, remove bloodspawn, valkyn, bogdan etc in that case.......
My biggest issue is why no one bother to find counters to the meta. And don´t say there is non, because there always is. As example (might not be the best since it´s kinda cheese as well, but anyway) I´ve found that blazing shieldplar is amazing counter to the procmeta. Using the undaunted boneshield and blazing shield works wonders against these gankers.
oh no, you're not the first to find it. i don't know how it is on EU, but on NA cyrodiil is basically Proc sets and tanks and of course tanks using proc sets. it's a pretty lame meta.
regardless. i don't mind people using one proc set but stacking multiple proc sets is ridiculous and should be removed.Invictus0 -
Minalan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Hey, there are a few direct counters to ganking.
1) Slot radiant magelight
2) Mail the ganker 20k gold
But for real, ZOS needs to balance the game. I just gank because it's fun af
I've been lazy but I have soemthing in the works (;
One of Fengrush's guys in one of his last videos (100's of kills or whatever) was complaining about a SRIBES gank.
Show us!
https://youtu.be/70UF1ymEZmA
**** Sribes dude!0 -
Qbiken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭PVP should ALWAYS revolve around outplaying your opponent through your OWN actions and not because something procced and suddenly he has to go defensive..or is dead.
Well, remove bloodspawn, valkyn, bogdan etc in that case.......
My biggest issue is why no one bother to find counters to the meta. And don´t say there is non, because there always is. As example (might not be the best since it´s kinda cheese as well, but anyway) I´ve found that blazing shieldplar is amazing counter to the procmeta. Using the undaunted boneshield and blazing shield works wonders against these gankers.
oh no, you're not the first to find it. i don't know how it is on EU, but on NA cyrodiil is basically Proc sets and tanks and of course tanks using proc sets. it's a pretty lame meta.
regardless. i don't mind people using one proc set but stacking multiple proc sets is ridiculous and should be removed.
Putting all procsets in the same basket and then trying to "fix" them won´t end well. Just adjust the sets that are an "issue", like veli, tremor, and maybe adjust viper (even tho viper isn´t proc set) dmg.0 -
rteezy✭✭✭PVP should ALWAYS revolve around outplaying your opponent through your OWN actions and not because something procced and suddenly he has to go defensive..or is dead.
Well, remove bloodspawn, valkyn, bogdan etc in that case.......
My biggest issue is why no one bother to find counters to the meta. And don´t say there is non, because there always is. As example (might not be the best since it´s kinda cheese as well, but anyway) I´ve found that blazing shieldplar is amazing counter to the procmeta. Using the undaunted boneshield and blazing shield works wonders against these gankers.
oh no, you're not the first to find it. i don't know how it is on EU, but on NA cyrodiil is basically Proc sets and tanks and of course tanks using proc sets. it's a pretty lame meta.
regardless. i don't mind people using one proc set but stacking multiple proc sets is ridiculous and should be removed.
Putting all procsets in the same basket and then trying to "fix" them won´t end well. Just adjust the sets that are an "issue", like veli, tremor, and maybe adjust viper (even tho viper isn´t proc set) dmg.
First of all, in a good pvp design, you dont counter something with a specific class/build, but rather every class/build will have something they can use (depending on player ability) to counter it.
Now, in regards to proc sets, like i said, the idea of procs is NOT bad, it has existed before in highly competitive mmo pvp (and still does).The problem is how EASY it is to get them, how little they require form the player to proc and how hard it is to counter them (again, specific builds and abilities might/should counter them but THAT doesn't make them "counter-able").
if a proc is strong, it should be hard to get and easy to counter.THAT alone adds a skillcap into it. Good players would get it off more easy, and on the other hand, equally as good players would counter/avoid it as easy.IT would require a set up.
That can only happen with proc chances that ALSO require specific conditions to happen.
Like, "proc X" has a % chance of doing massive damage, WHEN you have a dot rolling, the target is stunned, you are behind the target and you use a Heavy attack.
Its an exaggerated example jsut to illustrate how conditions could be added.See, a good player would break the stun or cleanse the dot before the proc went out. The same as a good player tryign to proc thsi damage would find the perfect opportunity to make it proc.
Finally, my main point was also that, besides procs being broken (since they reward very limited, if any, player input), some class designs and overall pvp design isnt good atm.
I showed sribes video to illustrate that.The guy is a freaking monster at what he does and he would make it work despite whatever meta were in, BUT how is a 20k+ heavy RANGED attack form stealth followed by a 15k incap balanced or counter-able?HE doesnt even need procs even doe he has them, most people take AT LEAST 25-28k damage before ANY proc, and thats pretty much instantly.
When you die instantly, there is NOTHING you as a player can do to counter that.THAT is bad design.2 -
Qbiken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@rteezyFirst of all, in a good pvp design, you dont counter something with a specific class/build, but rather every class/build will have something they can use (depending on player ability) to counter it.
This is where our opinions differ a lot. IMO all classes shall not have the abiltiy to counter everything by default. That´s not balance. All classes can´t be good at everything. All classes have their cons and pros. What a class lacks by default you make up by wearing a specific gear or making a specific build, that´s what makes an MMO enjoyable. To figure out the best builds and how to counter them. And tbh, there were those who could deal 28-30k stealth/gank damage even before all these procsets where introduced.
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rteezy✭✭✭@rteezyFirst of all, in a good pvp design, you dont counter something with a specific class/build, but rather every class/build will have something they can use (depending on player ability) to counter it.
This is where our opinions differ a lot. IMO all classes shall not have the abiltiy to counter everything by default. That´s not balance. All classes can´t be good at everything. All classes have their cons and pros. What a class lacks by default you make up by wearing a specific gear or making a specific build, that´s what makes an MMO enjoyable.
sorry man, but form a competitive pvp standpoint, i cant agree. IT is in the very nature of mmos to be unbalanced, its IMPOSSIBLE to ever break the "rock/papers/scissors" nature of it, thats why mentioning 1v1 in an mmo in regards to balancing (unless we are talking about same class/build) is pointless and dumb.BUT, you as a player should ALWAYS be provided with tools to counter everything.Have in mind im not saying "HARD counter", but you should ALWAYS have something you can do, despite class/build.@rteezy
And tbh, there were those who could deal 28-30k stealth/gank damage even before all these procsets where introduced.
Either way, its unbalanced and bad design.There is NOTHING you can do about it, that is NOT good pvp design.1 -
Armitas✭✭✭✭✭
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I showed sribes video to illustrate that.The guy is a freaking monster at what he does and he would make it work despite whatever meta were in, BUT how is a 20k+ heavy RANGED attack form stealth followed by a 15k incap balanced or counter-able?HE doesnt even need procs even doe he has them, most people take AT LEAST 25-28k damage before ANY proc, and thats pretty much instantly.
Good thing that combo doesn't also have major defile on it...cause then it would be op....
Edited by Armitas on December 11, 2016 5:57PMRetired.
Nord mDK0 -
Jjitsuboy98✭✭✭✭Zenimax sucks at developing balanced PvP. It more than likely will always be like this. Take it or leave it.3 -
HoloYoitsu✭✭✭✭✭
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They didn't always suck, if you take a look even at the core game design aspects that are still left from launch you can certainly seethe potential for dynamic competitive play. Stuff like bash interrupts, dodge rolling, the way heavy atks used to be interruptable, & resource management being the counter poise to a no cooldown skill system.Jjitsuboy98 wrote: »Zenimax sucks at developing balanced PvP. It more than likely will always be like this. Take it or leave it.
Sadly since Konkle left, Wrobel has been busy eroding much of that.1 -
FearlessOne_2014✭✭✭✭✭
✭Jjitsuboy98 wrote: »Zenimax sucks at developing balanced PvP. It more than likely will always be like this. Take it or leave it.
Name a MMO that came out in the last 5 years that was balanced and or skill based? That's why the MOBA genre took of in the way it has. Because the MMO companies and genre abandon balanced skill based PvP in the goal of mass selling easy to code, highly grind based, imbalanced content. Due to the current day's MMO selling point, the MOBA genre has the monopoly on skill based competitive PvP, since that's what they specialize in.
Moral of this story as long as MMO companies find it easier to sell imbalance PvP content all cries for balanced skill based PvP will fall on deaf ears. As money talks and bull *** walks! Just the nature of the beast.Edited by FearlessOne_2014 on December 12, 2016 3:55AM0 -
Rohamad_Ali✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »Jjitsuboy98 wrote: »Zenimax sucks at developing balanced PvP. It more than likely will always be like this. Take it or leave it.
Name a MMO that came out in the last 5 years that was balanced and or skill based? That's why the MOBA genre took of in the way it has. Because the MMO companies and genre abandon balanced skill based PvP in the goal of mass selling easy to code, highly grind based, imbalanced content. Due to the current day's MMO selling point, the MOBA genre has the monopoly on skill based competitive PvP, since that's what they specialize in.
Moral of this story as long as MMO companies find it easier to sell imbalance PvP content all cries for balanced skill based PvP will fall on deaf ears. As money talks and bull *** walks! Just the nature of the beast.
Selling imbalance is easier wat
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Rohamad_Ali✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭HoloYoitsu wrote: »
They didn't always suck, if you take a look even at the core game design aspects that are still left from launch you can certainly seethe potential for dynamic competitive play. Stuff like bash interrupts, dodge rolling, the way heavy atks used to be interruptable, & resource management being the counter poise to a no cooldown skill system.Jjitsuboy98 wrote: »Zenimax sucks at developing balanced PvP. It more than likely will always be like this. Take it or leave it.
Sadly since Konkle left, Wrobel has been busy eroding much of that.
Bring back Sir Nick . It wasn't perfect but it was a lot closer with Konkle .0 -
FearlessOne_2014✭✭✭✭✭
✭Rohamad_Ali wrote: »FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »Jjitsuboy98 wrote: »Zenimax sucks at developing balanced PvP. It more than likely will always be like this. Take it or leave it.
Name a MMO that came out in the last 5 years that was balanced and or skill based? That's why the MOBA genre took of in the way it has. Because the MMO companies and genre abandon balanced skill based PvP in the goal of mass selling easy to code, highly grind based, imbalanced content. Due to the current day's MMO selling point, the MOBA genre has the monopoly on skill based competitive PvP, since that's what they specialize in.
Moral of this story as long as MMO companies find it easier to sell imbalance PvP content all cries for balanced skill based PvP will fall on deaf ears. As money talks and bull *** walks! Just the nature of the beast.
Selling imbalance is easier wat
Ok since you've bit on my post. I'll challenge you to gave me a name of one mainstream MMO that released in the last 5 years that had balanced and skill based PvP that was successful?
I'll name you the ones that are highly unbalanced and spam or gear based PvP MMOs that are successful. GW2, ESO, FFXIV, and WoW.
MMOs that tried to introduced skill based combat but failed because of it Mortal Online, Darkfall, BnS. Those are just the ones I can say from experience that failed just because the skill floor and skill level in PvP was too high skill based
Eve Online is that only current to date skill based MMO still going somewhat strong tho they have started to sellout to the casual community of gamers hence why after 9 years of Eve I nolonger play it anymore.0 -
visionality✭✭✭✭✭@rteezy Hey, I fully agree with your assessment.
Sadly, Zenimax started diminishing the impact of player's skill onto gameplay a lot time ago. Anyone still remembers that DKs once were able to reflect meteors and NBs could just cloak them away? So you had to think before you cast them because otherwise they might come back or just fizzle into nothingness?
Throughout the last year, Zenimax has nerfed more and more player abilities and replaced them by RNG-events like procsets or poisons. The intelligence of gameplay has respectivly decreased. Today, the only working PVP strategy is to hit faster and harder than your opponent and to hope that your heavy armor or your stacked shields will help you survive the initial attack of a procset-player so that your own procsets can kill him instead.
I'm still dreaming of skills (yes, SKILLS, not sets!) that would e.g. allow me to reflect jesus beams on the beam-bot, but I'm pretty sure Zenimax would never allow them. The forum-outrcy of the one-button-players would just be too much for the tender souls of our game developers.
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FearlessOne_2014✭✭✭✭✭
✭visionality wrote: »@rteezy Hey, I fully agree with your assessment.
Sadly, Zenimax started diminishing the impact of player's skill onto gameplay a lot time ago. Anyone still remembers that DKs once were able to reflect meteors and NBs could just cloak them away? So you had to think before you cast them because otherwise they might come back or just fizzle into nothingness?
Throughout the last year, Zenimax has nerfed more and more player abilities and replaced them by RNG-events like procsets or poisons. The intelligence of gameplay has respectivly decreased. Today, the only working PVP strategy is to hit faster and harder than your opponent and to hope that your heavy armor or your stacked shields will help you survive the initial attack of a procset-player so that your own procsets can kill him instead.
I'm still dreaming of skills (yes, SKILLS, not sets!) that would e.g. allow me to reflect jesus beams on the beam-bot, but I'm pretty sure Zenimax would never allow them. The forum-outrcy of the one-button-players would just be too much for the tender souls of our game developers.
Pretty much.0