Crispen_Longbow wrote: »Ghost-Shot wrote: »Campaign Scoring & Reward Structure
Let’s be real here, very few people care about the map or winning campaigns anymore (before someone comes in all triggered, I know some of you still do, you are just a minority these days) and that’s pretty sad, Cyrodiil is an AvA zone after all. I believe the lack of interest in winning campaigns is due to the lack of rewards for doing so. If my alliance wins a 30 day campaign and I have tier 3 rewards and I’m in the top 2% for AP earned, I get 30K gold, a few gold items that will likely be trash or something I’ve had for 8 months already and a few wall repairs. There is no incentive there for most of your guild raids and small man’s to care about.
Campaign Score Solution:
The everything is worth 1 point score system needs to go, there is no reason to spread out to different places on the map when none of those locations are actually valuable targets. I have come up with some numbers that I think would be good for score values, would love to hear what everyone thinks about them:
All of the above are great suggestions. I believe we are missing one crucial one for people to care about campaign wins. Create campaigns that are locked to 8 hour scouring periods. Also tie it to Emp crowning. You can only crown an Emp while scoring is open.
Trueflame
5:00PM - 1:00AM EST (Scoring Open / Emp Crowning Active)
1:00AM - 9:00AM EST (Scoring & Emp Crowning Closed)
9:00AM - 5:00PM EST (Scoring & Emp Crowning Closed)
Haderus
5:00PM - 1:00AM EST (Scoring & Emp Crowning Closed)
1:00AM - 9:00AM EST (Scoring Open / Emp Crowning Active)
9:00AM - 5:00PM EST (Scoring & Emp Crowning Closed)
Azuras Star
5:00PM - 1:00AM EST (Scoring & Emp Crowning Closed)
1:00AM - 9:00AM EST (Scoring & Emp Crowning Closed)
9:00AM - 5:00PM EST (Scoring Open / Emp Crowning Active)
This would force players to choose timezones that they are active in and end the Night capping / Day Capping issues. This would also help to push different play-styles at different times. Objective play during Primetime Scoring and Emp Pushes, AP farming on off hours.
HoloYoitsu wrote: »
Ghost-Shot wrote: »Campaign Scoring & Reward Structure
Let’s be real here, very few people care about the map or winning campaigns anymore (before someone comes in all triggered, I know some of you still do, you are just a minority these days) and that’s pretty sad, Cyrodiil is an AvA zone after all. I believe the lack of interest in winning campaigns is due to the lack of rewards for doing so. If my alliance wins a 30 day campaign and I have tier 3 rewards and I’m in the top 2% for AP earned, I get 30K gold, a few gold items that will likely be trash or something I’ve had for 8 months already and a few wall repairs. There is no incentive there for most of your guild raids and small man’s to care about.
Campaign Score Solution:
The everything is worth 1 point score system needs to go, there is no reason to spread out to different places on the map when none of those locations are actually valuable targets. I have come up with some numbers that I think would be good for score values, would love to hear what everyone thinks about them:
Crispen_Longbow wrote: »Ghost-Shot wrote: »Campaign Scoring & Reward Structure
Let’s be real here, very few people care about the map or winning campaigns anymore (before someone comes in all triggered, I know some of you still do, you are just a minority these days) and that’s pretty sad, Cyrodiil is an AvA zone after all. I believe the lack of interest in winning campaigns is due to the lack of rewards for doing so. If my alliance wins a 30 day campaign and I have tier 3 rewards and I’m in the top 2% for AP earned, I get 30K gold, a few gold items that will likely be trash or something I’ve had for 8 months already and a few wall repairs. There is no incentive there for most of your guild raids and small man’s to care about.
Campaign Score Solution:
The everything is worth 1 point score system needs to go, there is no reason to spread out to different places on the map when none of those locations are actually valuable targets. I have come up with some numbers that I think would be good for score values, would love to hear what everyone thinks about them:
All of the above are great suggestions. I believe we are missing one crucial one for people to care about campaign wins. Create campaigns that are locked to 8 hour scouring periods. Also tie it to Emp crowning. You can only crown an Emp while scoring is open.
Trueflame
5:00PM - 1:00AM EST (Scoring Open / Emp Crowning Active)
1:00AM - 9:00AM EST (Scoring & Emp Crowning Closed)
9:00AM - 5:00PM EST (Scoring & Emp Crowning Closed)
Haderus
5:00PM - 1:00AM EST (Scoring & Emp Crowning Closed)
1:00AM - 9:00AM EST (Scoring Open / Emp Crowning Active)
9:00AM - 5:00PM EST (Scoring & Emp Crowning Closed)
Azuras Star
5:00PM - 1:00AM EST (Scoring & Emp Crowning Closed)
1:00AM - 9:00AM EST (Scoring & Emp Crowning Closed)
9:00AM - 5:00PM EST (Scoring Open / Emp Crowning Active)
This would force players to choose timezones that they are active in and end the Night capping / Day Capping issues. This would also help to push different play-styles at different times. Objective play during Primetime Scoring and Emp Pushes, AP farming on off hours.
Something needs to be done about the scoring and the AP system no doubt about it. However, I'm not sure if I read it all right but it seems like the things you've mentioned would put more emphasis on AP farming and not objective play. Being able to acquire all those materials/sets with certain amounts of AP, just puts more emphasis on AP farming which is why Cyrodiil is so shallow currently. They need to tie AP to objective play, as well as winning campaigns, etc.
A couple things I think may help, would be to have some sort of AP offensive/defensive bonus. Not "ticks or flip ticks" but just like other games do in certain game modes like Domination. You kill an enemy on one of your keep flags, he's worth AP+DefensiveBonusAP... I think Offensive bonuses should be worth a little more than defense, in that if I participate in wiping a group while taking an enemy keep, that group is worth more than normal amounts of AP, would be AP+OffensiveBonusAP. This would promote objective game play in the since that even AP farmers would siege keeps to get in there and fight. They could maybe even scale the bonuses with how you have the scoring system listed, defense/offense bonuses are bigger at certain keeps. Another thing that I think they NEED TO DO, is replace the Home Keep Bonus with the Blessing of War bonus. That would also promote AP farmers to at least own their home keeps.
I think Master Weapons in rewards of the worthy would be a great thing, but should be scaled for winning/losing campaigns. Like, 50% chance for top 5% AP gained of the winning faction, 25% chance for top 5% AP gained of the 2nd place faction, no chance for losers.
Ghost-Shot wrote: »Something needs to be done about the scoring and the AP system no doubt about it. However, I'm not sure if I read it all right but it seems like the things you've mentioned would put more emphasis on AP farming and not objective play. Being able to acquire all those materials/sets with certain amounts of AP, just puts more emphasis on AP farming which is why Cyrodiil is so shallow currently. They need to tie AP to objective play, as well as winning campaigns, etc.
A couple things I think may help, would be to have some sort of AP offensive/defensive bonus. Not "ticks or flip ticks" but just like other games do in certain game modes like Domination. You kill an enemy on one of your keep flags, he's worth AP+DefensiveBonusAP... I think Offensive bonuses should be worth a little more than defense, in that if I participate in wiping a group while taking an enemy keep, that group is worth more than normal amounts of AP, would be AP+OffensiveBonusAP. This would promote objective game play in the since that even AP farmers would siege keeps to get in there and fight. They could maybe even scale the bonuses with how you have the scoring system listed, defense/offense bonuses are bigger at certain keeps. Another thing that I think they NEED TO DO, is replace the Home Keep Bonus with the Blessing of War bonus. That would also promote AP farmers to at least own their home keeps.
I think Master Weapons in rewards of the worthy would be a great thing, but should be scaled for winning/losing campaigns. Like, 50% chance for top 5% AP gained of the winning faction, 25% chance for top 5% AP gained of the 2nd place faction, no chance for losers.
The AP farming is never going to stop anyway, so we may as well get things to use all that AP on and get the population spread out a bit in the process.
Ghost-Shot wrote: »Warning, this post is going to be fairly long, tl/dr at the bottom. I’ve been thinking about it a lot lately and have come up with some ideas that would, in my opinion, improve both the gameplay experience and reward structure in Cyrodiil. From how the map is played (when it’s actually played at all) to how PvPers gear up, I think it’s time for a serious overhaul. I don’t want to get in to balance discussions in this post, we know it’s a problem and we have discussed it to death over the last few months, we have a balance patch coming up so it’s probably best to see where that goes before beating that horse again. Would love to hear everyone’s input and find out if these are all *** ideas or not!
Gear
In theory, having gear available in the towns was a cool idea but in practice, it’s really annoying. Our purchasable PvP gear needs to be moved back to the gates and made a little more reasonable to acquire. I know that those vendors are pretty much the only reason to go visit the towns right now; I’ll address that issue later.
Ok so first thing to address is the vendors. It’s clear that ZOS is set on using RNG boxes but they don’t have to be as bad as they are now. What should happen is take the 3 vendors, like they are now, so you have a light armor vendor, medium armor vendor, and heavy armor vendor, and put them at one of each faction’s gates. This way you always have access to all the gear vendors regardless of alliance without having to ride across the map and try and cap a town while some scrub is in stealth waiting to flip flags behind you. Then instead of selling one box that can drop every piece of Desert Rose for example, they would have boxes that drop Desert Rose shoes, Desert Rose pants, Desert Rose jewelry and so on. You still maintain some RNG and people don’t gear up immediately but it becomes reasonable. I know the PvE crowd needs some help in this area too, VMA is a real ***, but that is a topic for another post.
Malestrom/Master weapons, or at least some alternative, need to be available by some means through PvP. In the past, we had a chance to get Master weapons from the end of campaign rewards, that would be a good way to start if you are opposed to directly purchasing them for a huge amount of AP. PvEers complain all the time about having to PvP for things like vigor and caltrops so they were made easier for them to obtain, why don’t we get the same treatment?
The next thing to address is rewards for the worthy mails. The items offered in rewards for the worthy were last updated with the Thieves Guild DLC in March; we have been receiving the exact same items for 9 months now. It’s very important that the sets available through rewards for the worthy are updated every few months to give us useful items with the mails. When a group of sets is cycled out of the reward mails, they should be placed on a vendor at the main gates who sells them in boxes. This could be a good implementation of gear seasons, with each vendor carrying a particular season’s gear.
Campaign Scoring & Reward Structure
Let’s be real here, very few people care about the map or winning campaigns anymore (before someone comes in all triggered, I know some of you still do, you are just a minority these days) and that’s pretty sad, Cyrodiil is an AvA zone after all. I believe the lack of interest in winning campaigns is due to the lack of rewards for doing so. If my alliance wins a 30 day campaign and I have tier 3 rewards and I’m in the top 2% for AP earned, I get 30K gold, a few gold items that will likely be trash or something I’ve had for 8 months already and a few wall repairs. There is no incentive there for most of your guild raids and small man’s to care about.
Reward Structure Solution:
First thing is to add two more tiers to end of campaign rewards, tier 4 at 500k AP, tier 5 at 1 million AP. Tier 4 would put your rewards up to 75k gold, 5 pieces of epic gear, and a full stack of repair kits. Tier 5 gets you 150k gold, 5 gold items, a stack of wall repairs and a stack of door repairs, if your alliance wins the campaign. I’m not entirely sure about this one, but maybe when an alliance wins a campaign, the following cycle the get a 10% AP earned bonus. I realize this seems like huge rewards but if you want people to care, the incentive has to be there.
Campaign Score Solution:
The everything is worth 1 point score system needs to go, there is no reason to spread out to different places on the map when none of those locations are actually valuable targets. I have come up with some numbers that I think would be good for score values, would love to hear what everyone thinks about them:Tri-keeps (Rayles/Wraden/Glademist ) = 5 points each
Tri-keep resources = 2 points each
Dragon/Drake/Brindle and their resources = 3 points each
Emp ring keeps & resources = 2 points for home keeps, 1 point for enemy keeps
Outposts = 2 points each
Towns = 5 points each
Scrolls = 10 points each
Provided proper rewards are implemented for winning a campaign, having higher value targets deep in enemy territory would help spreading people out on the map, you are still going to have the frontline zerg on the ring (it’s never going away, just accept that) but you will also have the more organized forces all over the place.
The other possible way to make people care about the map is probably going to be a bit of a controversial one but I will put it out there anyway, campaign buffs in PvE. I know it creates some issues for leaderboards but I know a lot of people who only ever tried PvP to help get their buff servers back and ended up loving it, it’s a great way to make people want to hold a map and bring new players into PvP. Even when we had enough campaigns to have proper buff servers, going in a breaking up an enemy held buff server was always a fun thing for guilds to do while main servers were slow.
Alliance Points
Alliance points have been pretty useless for a long time now, I remember when asked about adding things to be purchased for AP, @Wrobel cited the huge sums of AP that some have accumulated as a reason to be cautious adding things but that is only a problem because there is nothing worth buying. The changes to gearing I discussed earlier would go a long way in clearing some of that AP up but we need more. Adding the flower satchels to the Tel Var vendor was an awesome move, maybe having an AP variant as well would be good. Gold tempers would be nice to purchase with AP too, something like 31,250 AP would work out to 250K AP to upgrade one item, I think that’s reasonable.
Cosmetic things are great too, I can’t speak for everyone here but I know for me it was a slap in the face that the alliance themed horses were a cash shop thing and not a PvP reward. I know your cash shop is where the money comes from but give us something. I would like to see the alliance style motifs added to the vendors, maybe some cool costumes or polymorphs like you can buy in IC. With housing coming up there is a huge opportunity to add items we can use in our houses to an AP vendor.
TL/DR:
Make gearing through PvP a viable possibility and continually update rewards for the worthy. Make end of campaign rewards for the winning alliance worth putting in the effort to win a campaign. Provide things to spend our AP on, the only way you will ever dry up the huge supplies of AP that some people have is by making it a useful currency again. I look forward to hearing everyone’s feedback and input on what I went overboard with or anything I missed, let’s make Cyrodiil great again!
@ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_GinaBruno
People that run at night would have a huge advantage. Not in favor of any scoring changes.
All of the above are great suggestions. I believe we are missing one crucial one for people to care about campaign wins. Create campaigns that are locked to 8 hour scouring periods. Also tie it to Emp crowning. You can only crown an Emp while scoring is open.
Trueflame
5:00PM - 1:00AM EST (Scoring Open / Emp Crowning Active)
1:00AM - 9:00AM EST (Scoring & Emp Crowning Closed)
9:00AM - 5:00PM EST (Scoring & Emp Crowning Closed)
Haderus
5:00PM - 1:00AM EST (Scoring & Emp Crowning Closed)
1:00AM - 9:00AM EST (Scoring Open / Emp Crowning Active)
9:00AM - 5:00PM EST (Scoring & Emp Crowning Closed)
Azuras Star
5:00PM - 1:00AM EST (Scoring & Emp Crowning Closed)
1:00AM - 9:00AM EST (Scoring & Emp Crowning Closed)
9:00AM - 5:00PM EST (Scoring Open / Emp Crowning Active)
Crispen_Longbow wrote: »People that run at night would have a huge advantage. Not in favor of any scoring changes.
Read my section about locking scoring by time. Would solve any scoring advantages from night/day caps.All of the above are great suggestions. I believe we are missing one crucial one for people to care about campaign wins. Create campaigns that are locked to 8 hour scouring periods. Also tie it to Emp crowning. You can only crown an Emp while scoring is open.
Trueflame
5:00PM - 1:00AM EST (Scoring Open / Emp Crowning Active)
1:00AM - 9:00AM EST (Scoring & Emp Crowning Closed)
9:00AM - 5:00PM EST (Scoring & Emp Crowning Closed)
Haderus
5:00PM - 1:00AM EST (Scoring & Emp Crowning Closed)
1:00AM - 9:00AM EST (Scoring Open / Emp Crowning Active)
9:00AM - 5:00PM EST (Scoring & Emp Crowning Closed)
Azuras Star
5:00PM - 1:00AM EST (Scoring & Emp Crowning Closed)
1:00AM - 9:00AM EST (Scoring & Emp Crowning Closed)
9:00AM - 5:00PM EST (Scoring Open / Emp Crowning Active)
Crispen_Longbow wrote: »People that run at night would have a huge advantage. Not in favor of any scoring changes.
Read my section about locking scoring by time. Would solve any scoring advantages from night/day caps.All of the above are great suggestions. I believe we are missing one crucial one for people to care about campaign wins. Create campaigns that are locked to 8 hour scouring periods. Also tie it to Emp crowning. You can only crown an Emp while scoring is open.
Trueflame
5:00PM - 1:00AM EST (Scoring Open / Emp Crowning Active)
1:00AM - 9:00AM EST (Scoring & Emp Crowning Closed)
9:00AM - 5:00PM EST (Scoring & Emp Crowning Closed)
Haderus
5:00PM - 1:00AM EST (Scoring & Emp Crowning Closed)
1:00AM - 9:00AM EST (Scoring Open / Emp Crowning Active)
9:00AM - 5:00PM EST (Scoring & Emp Crowning Closed)
Azuras Star
5:00PM - 1:00AM EST (Scoring & Emp Crowning Closed)
1:00AM - 9:00AM EST (Scoring & Emp Crowning Closed)
9:00AM - 5:00PM EST (Scoring Open / Emp Crowning Active)
Crispen_Longbow wrote: »People that run at night would have a huge advantage. Not in favor of any scoring changes.
Read my section about locking scoring by time. Would solve any scoring advantages from night/day caps.All of the above are great suggestions. I believe we are missing one crucial one for people to care about campaign wins. Create campaigns that are locked to 8 hour scouring periods. Also tie it to Emp crowning. You can only crown an Emp while scoring is open.
Trueflame
5:00PM - 1:00AM EST (Scoring Open / Emp Crowning Active)
1:00AM - 9:00AM EST (Scoring & Emp Crowning Closed)
9:00AM - 5:00PM EST (Scoring & Emp Crowning Closed)
Haderus
5:00PM - 1:00AM EST (Scoring & Emp Crowning Closed)
1:00AM - 9:00AM EST (Scoring Open / Emp Crowning Active)
9:00AM - 5:00PM EST (Scoring & Emp Crowning Closed)
Azuras Star
5:00PM - 1:00AM EST (Scoring & Emp Crowning Closed)
1:00AM - 9:00AM EST (Scoring & Emp Crowning Closed)
9:00AM - 5:00PM EST (Scoring Open / Emp Crowning Active)
This would help greatly.
Though I don't think the scoring is enough to help pull zergs away.
The very least, we need the town's to contribute to the scoreboard, but it still won't solve players looking to get an hour's worth of pure pvp. That means we need more battles that are both off the inner keep ring's path and won't entice large zergs pulling down the server performance:
- the town's must be connected via travel ports and additional towns created. This should let factions gain other footholds and entice players to defend or attack the objectives.
- The towns must have their own unique way of adding to the score board.
- the winning faction must earn a chance to get Maelstrom gear. All sets, aside from bound on pick up and monster helms, must be available at faction wins/reward teirs. Without uptodate gear incentive attached to the score, I'm afraid no one aside from us "score jockeys" will care if factions win.
- rewards of the worthy should drop all sets. The RNG would still be annoying, but at least you can get spinners without sitting around for a boss to spawn.
That's my contribution. I'm sure I'll have more.
Sallington wrote: »Crispen_Longbow wrote: »People that run at night would have a huge advantage. Not in favor of any scoring changes.
Read my section about locking scoring by time. Would solve any scoring advantages from night/day caps.All of the above are great suggestions. I believe we are missing one crucial one for people to care about campaign wins. Create campaigns that are locked to 8 hour scouring periods. Also tie it to Emp crowning. You can only crown an Emp while scoring is open.
Trueflame
5:00PM - 1:00AM EST (Scoring Open / Emp Crowning Active)
1:00AM - 9:00AM EST (Scoring & Emp Crowning Closed)
9:00AM - 5:00PM EST (Scoring & Emp Crowning Closed)
Haderus
5:00PM - 1:00AM EST (Scoring & Emp Crowning Closed)
1:00AM - 9:00AM EST (Scoring Open / Emp Crowning Active)
9:00AM - 5:00PM EST (Scoring & Emp Crowning Closed)
Azuras Star
5:00PM - 1:00AM EST (Scoring & Emp Crowning Closed)
1:00AM - 9:00AM EST (Scoring & Emp Crowning Closed)
9:00AM - 5:00PM EST (Scoring Open / Emp Crowning Active)
This would help greatly.
Though I don't think the scoring is enough to help pull zergs away.
The very least, we need the town's to contribute to the scoreboard, but it still won't solve players looking to get an hour's worth of pure pvp. That means we need more battles that are both off the inner keep ring's path and won't entice large zergs pulling down the server performance:
- the town's must be connected via travel ports and additional towns created. This should let factions gain other footholds and entice players to defend or attack the objectives.
- The towns must have their own unique way of adding to the score board.
- the winning faction must earn a chance to get Maelstrom gear. All sets, aside from bound on pick up and monster helms, must be available at faction wins/reward teirs. Without uptodate gear incentive attached to the score, I'm afraid no one aside from us "score jockeys" will care if factions win.
- rewards of the worthy should drop all sets. The RNG would still be annoying, but at least you can get spinners without sitting around for a boss to spawn.
That's my contribution. I'm sure I'll have more.
I think that extra objectives/towns need to be added for sure, these objectives need to give substantial AP for a capture/defend, AND owning these objectives needs to give a substantial advantage to their associated keeps.
Owning the towns/camps around a certain keep should allow for extra "supplies" or "soldiers" for reinforcing its respective keep. Maybe these increases the power of guards by a large amount, maybe owning all surrounding objectives spawns a raid-strength Captain of the Guard in the keep or something. Maybe boost a factions resource pools by 10% per objective owned while within the walls of the respective keep.
Something definitely needs to be done to encourage people to split up between multiple objectives, while still having meaningful contribution to their faction.
Sallington wrote: »Crispen_Longbow wrote: »People that run at night would have a huge advantage. Not in favor of any scoring changes.
Read my section about locking scoring by time. Would solve any scoring advantages from night/day caps.All of the above are great suggestions. I believe we are missing one crucial one for people to care about campaign wins. Create campaigns that are locked to 8 hour scouring periods. Also tie it to Emp crowning. You can only crown an Emp while scoring is open.
Trueflame
5:00PM - 1:00AM EST (Scoring Open / Emp Crowning Active)
1:00AM - 9:00AM EST (Scoring & Emp Crowning Closed)
9:00AM - 5:00PM EST (Scoring & Emp Crowning Closed)
Haderus
5:00PM - 1:00AM EST (Scoring & Emp Crowning Closed)
1:00AM - 9:00AM EST (Scoring Open / Emp Crowning Active)
9:00AM - 5:00PM EST (Scoring & Emp Crowning Closed)
Azuras Star
5:00PM - 1:00AM EST (Scoring & Emp Crowning Closed)
1:00AM - 9:00AM EST (Scoring & Emp Crowning Closed)
9:00AM - 5:00PM EST (Scoring Open / Emp Crowning Active)
This would help greatly.
Though I don't think the scoring is enough to help pull zergs away.
The very least, we need the town's to contribute to the scoreboard, but it still won't solve players looking to get an hour's worth of pure pvp. That means we need more battles that are both off the inner keep ring's path and won't entice large zergs pulling down the server performance:
- the town's must be connected via travel ports and additional towns created. This should let factions gain other footholds and entice players to defend or attack the objectives.
- The towns must have their own unique way of adding to the score board.
- the winning faction must earn a chance to get Maelstrom gear. All sets, aside from bound on pick up and monster helms, must be available at faction wins/reward teirs. Without uptodate gear incentive attached to the score, I'm afraid no one aside from us "score jockeys" will care if factions win.
- rewards of the worthy should drop all sets. The RNG would still be annoying, but at least you can get spinners without sitting around for a boss to spawn.
That's my contribution. I'm sure I'll have more.
I think that extra objectives/towns need to be added for sure, these objectives need to give substantial AP for a capture/defend, AND owning these objectives needs to give a substantial advantage to their associated keeps.
Owning the towns/camps around a certain keep should allow for extra "supplies" or "soldiers" for reinforcing its respective keep. Maybe these increases the power of guards by a large amount, maybe owning all surrounding objectives spawns a raid-strength Captain of the Guard in the keep or something. Maybe boost a factions resource pools by 10% per objective owned while within the walls of the respective keep.
Something definitely needs to be done to encourage people to split up between multiple objectives, while still having meaningful contribution to their faction.
Yea, and those changes I can see.
If we distill cyro combat into a pure ideology, it would be this:
- everyone just wanted a quick, satisfied fight within 60 minutes.
As much as we want amazing changes, a player should go to any objective, and find a battle quickly. But here are the problems limiting this simple request:
- server population were reduced consistently since launch. There aren't enough players to fill up the size of cyro.
- current pop still can cause annoying lag. Why ride far from a keep with a quick respawn location, when lag will kill your player's responses. Better to just ride from a keep to another keep, and rez quickly to maximize your limited playing time.
- insane dmg caused people to find insane healing and insane tanking builds. The players that don't have time to plan those heal/tank builds, zerg up to protect themselves. The zergs ride to both keeps/resources and remove incentive to spreadout.
- gear out of date from pvp rewards. No incentive to go into a town for the trader, when you are already wearing BiS gear. Needs a change like when they added flower bags in IC.
I got ya, fam.Sallington wrote: »Sallington wrote: »Crispen_Longbow wrote: »People that run at night would have a huge advantage. Not in favor of any scoring changes.
Read my section about locking scoring by time. Would solve any scoring advantages from night/day caps.All of the above are great suggestions. I believe we are missing one crucial one for people to care about campaign wins. Create campaigns that are locked to 8 hour scouring periods. Also tie it to Emp crowning. You can only crown an Emp while scoring is open.
Trueflame
5:00PM - 1:00AM EST (Scoring Open / Emp Crowning Active)
1:00AM - 9:00AM EST (Scoring & Emp Crowning Closed)
9:00AM - 5:00PM EST (Scoring & Emp Crowning Closed)
Haderus
5:00PM - 1:00AM EST (Scoring & Emp Crowning Closed)
1:00AM - 9:00AM EST (Scoring Open / Emp Crowning Active)
9:00AM - 5:00PM EST (Scoring & Emp Crowning Closed)
Azuras Star
5:00PM - 1:00AM EST (Scoring & Emp Crowning Closed)
1:00AM - 9:00AM EST (Scoring & Emp Crowning Closed)
9:00AM - 5:00PM EST (Scoring Open / Emp Crowning Active)
This would help greatly.
Though I don't think the scoring is enough to help pull zergs away.
The very least, we need the town's to contribute to the scoreboard, but it still won't solve players looking to get an hour's worth of pure pvp. That means we need more battles that are both off the inner keep ring's path and won't entice large zergs pulling down the server performance:
- the town's must be connected via travel ports and additional towns created. This should let factions gain other footholds and entice players to defend or attack the objectives.
- The towns must have their own unique way of adding to the score board.
- the winning faction must earn a chance to get Maelstrom gear. All sets, aside from bound on pick up and monster helms, must be available at faction wins/reward teirs. Without uptodate gear incentive attached to the score, I'm afraid no one aside from us "score jockeys" will care if factions win.
- rewards of the worthy should drop all sets. The RNG would still be annoying, but at least you can get spinners without sitting around for a boss to spawn.
That's my contribution. I'm sure I'll have more.
I think that extra objectives/towns need to be added for sure, these objectives need to give substantial AP for a capture/defend, AND owning these objectives needs to give a substantial advantage to their associated keeps.
Owning the towns/camps around a certain keep should allow for extra "supplies" or "soldiers" for reinforcing its respective keep. Maybe these increases the power of guards by a large amount, maybe owning all surrounding objectives spawns a raid-strength Captain of the Guard in the keep or something. Maybe boost a factions resource pools by 10% per objective owned while within the walls of the respective keep.
Something definitely needs to be done to encourage people to split up between multiple objectives, while still having meaningful contribution to their faction.
Yea, and those changes I can see.
If we distill cyro combat into a pure ideology, it would be this:
- everyone just wanted a quick, satisfied fight within 60 minutes.
As much as we want amazing changes, a player should go to any objective, and find a battle quickly. But here are the problems limiting this simple request:
- server population were reduced consistently since launch. There aren't enough players to fill up the size of cyro.
- current pop still can cause annoying lag. Why ride far from a keep with a quick respawn location, when lag will kill your player's responses. Better to just ride from a keep to another keep, and rez quickly to maximize your limited playing time.
- insane dmg caused people to find insane healing and insane tanking builds. The players that don't have time to plan those heal/tank builds, zerg up to protect themselves. The zergs ride to both keeps/resources and remove incentive to spreadout.
- gear out of date from pvp rewards. No incentive to go into a town for the trader, when you are already wearing BiS gear. Needs a change like when they added flower bags in IC.
It all comes down to them not being able to delver on their original promise of "hundreds of players on screen at once", a phrase they've even taken off their website. Their tech just could handle their original vision.
sadpanda.jpg
HoloYoitsu wrote: »I got ya, fam.
Deleting your own website isn't enough to hide the truth from me, ZOS.
To make the score valuable you can attach each of these 3 buffs to scoreboard so if you are in last place you get 1 buff, second place 2 buffs, 1st place all 3 buffs. You can also make the towns act as a multiplier for those 3 buffs. Capturing a town gives a 1hr long multiplier bonus to the score bonus that refreshes each hour if the flag is not flipped.
Ghost-Shot wrote: »Warning, this post is going to be fairly long, tl/dr at the bottom. I’ve been thinking about it a lot lately and have come up with some ideas that would, in my opinion, improve both the gameplay experience and reward structure in Cyrodiil. From how the map is played (when it’s actually played at all) to how PvPers gear up, I think it’s time for a serious overhaul. I don’t want to get in to balance discussions in this post, we know it’s a problem and we have discussed it to death over the last few months, we have a balance patch coming up so it’s probably best to see where that goes before beating that horse again. Would love to hear everyone’s input and find out if these are all *** ideas or not!
Gear
In theory, having gear available in the towns was a cool idea but in practice, it’s really annoying. Our purchasable PvP gear needs to be moved back to the gates and made a little more reasonable to acquire. I know that those vendors are pretty much the only reason to go visit the towns right now; I’ll address that issue later.
Ok so first thing to address is the vendors. It’s clear that ZOS is set on using RNG boxes but they don’t have to be as bad as they are now. What should happen is take the 3 vendors, like they are now, so you have a light armor vendor, medium armor vendor, and heavy armor vendor, and put them at one of each faction’s gates. This way you always have access to all the gear vendors regardless of alliance without having to ride across the map and try and cap a town while some scrub is in stealth waiting to flip flags behind you. Then instead of selling one box that can drop every piece of Desert Rose for example, they would have boxes that drop Desert Rose shoes, Desert Rose pants, Desert Rose jewelry and so on. You still maintain some RNG and people don’t gear up immediately but it becomes reasonable. I know the PvE crowd needs some help in this area too, VMA is a real ***, but that is a topic for another post.
Malestrom/Master weapons, or at least some alternative, need to be available by some means through PvP. In the past, we had a chance to get Master weapons from the end of campaign rewards, that would be a good way to start if you are opposed to directly purchasing them for a huge amount of AP. PvEers complain all the time about having to PvP for things like vigor and caltrops so they were made easier for them to obtain, why don’t we get the same treatment?
The next thing to address is rewards for the worthy mails. The items offered in rewards for the worthy were last updated with the Thieves Guild DLC in March; we have been receiving the exact same items for 9 months now. It’s very important that the sets available through rewards for the worthy are updated every few months to give us useful items with the mails. When a group of sets is cycled out of the reward mails, they should be placed on a vendor at the main gates who sells them in boxes. This could be a good implementation of gear seasons, with each vendor carrying a particular season’s gear.
Campaign Scoring & Reward Structure
Let’s be real here, very few people care about the map or winning campaigns anymore (before someone comes in all triggered, I know some of you still do, you are just a minority these days) and that’s pretty sad, Cyrodiil is an AvA zone after all. I believe the lack of interest in winning campaigns is due to the lack of rewards for doing so. If my alliance wins a 30 day campaign and I have tier 3 rewards and I’m in the top 2% for AP earned, I get 30K gold, a few gold items that will likely be trash or something I’ve had for 8 months already and a few wall repairs. There is no incentive there for most of your guild raids and small man’s to care about.
Reward Structure Solution:
First thing is to add two more tiers to end of campaign rewards, tier 4 at 500k AP, tier 5 at 1 million AP. Tier 4 would put your rewards up to 75k gold, 5 pieces of epic gear, and a full stack of repair kits. Tier 5 gets you 150k gold, 5 gold items, a stack of wall repairs and a stack of door repairs, if your alliance wins the campaign. I’m not entirely sure about this one, but maybe when an alliance wins a campaign, the following cycle the get a 10% AP earned bonus. I realize this seems like huge rewards but if you want people to care, the incentive has to be there.
Campaign Score Solution:
The everything is worth 1 point score system needs to go, there is no reason to spread out to different places on the map when none of those locations are actually valuable targets. I have come up with some numbers that I think would be good for score values, would love to hear what everyone thinks about them:Tri-keeps (Rayles/Wraden/Glademist ) = 5 points each
Tri-keep resources = 2 points each
Dragon/Drake/Brindle and their resources = 3 points each
Emp ring keeps & resources = 2 points for home keeps, 1 point for enemy keeps
Outposts = 2 points each
Towns = 5 points each
Scrolls = 10 points each
Provided proper rewards are implemented for winning a campaign, having higher value targets deep in enemy territory would help spreading people out on the map, you are still going to have the frontline zerg on the ring (it’s never going away, just accept that) but you will also have the more organized forces all over the place.
The other possible way to make people care about the map is probably going to be a bit of a controversial one but I will put it out there anyway, campaign buffs in PvE. I know it creates some issues for leaderboards but I know a lot of people who only ever tried PvP to help get their buff servers back and ended up loving it, it’s a great way to make people want to hold a map and bring new players into PvP. Even when we had enough campaigns to have proper buff servers, going in a breaking up an enemy held buff server was always a fun thing for guilds to do while main servers were slow.
Awesome suggestion by @Crispen_Longbow to gate scoring times by campaign:Crispen_Longbow wrote: »Ghost-Shot wrote: »Campaign Scoring & Reward Structure
Let’s be real here, very few people care about the map or winning campaigns anymore (before someone comes in all triggered, I know some of you still do, you are just a minority these days) and that’s pretty sad, Cyrodiil is an AvA zone after all. I believe the lack of interest in winning campaigns is due to the lack of rewards for doing so. If my alliance wins a 30 day campaign and I have tier 3 rewards and I’m in the top 2% for AP earned, I get 30K gold, a few gold items that will likely be trash or something I’ve had for 8 months already and a few wall repairs. There is no incentive there for most of your guild raids and small man’s to care about.
Campaign Score Solution:
The everything is worth 1 point score system needs to go, there is no reason to spread out to different places on the map when none of those locations are actually valuable targets. I have come up with some numbers that I think would be good for score values, would love to hear what everyone thinks about them:
All of the above are great suggestions. I believe we are missing one crucial one for people to care about campaign wins. Create campaigns that are locked to 8 hour scouring periods. Also tie it to Emp crowning. You can only crown an Emp while scoring is open.
Trueflame
5:00PM - 1:00AM EST (Scoring Open / Emp Crowning Active)
1:00AM - 9:00AM EST (Scoring & Emp Crowning Closed)
9:00AM - 5:00PM EST (Scoring & Emp Crowning Closed)
Haderus
5:00PM - 1:00AM EST (Scoring & Emp Crowning Closed)
1:00AM - 9:00AM EST (Scoring Open / Emp Crowning Active)
9:00AM - 5:00PM EST (Scoring & Emp Crowning Closed)
Azuras Star
5:00PM - 1:00AM EST (Scoring & Emp Crowning Closed)
1:00AM - 9:00AM EST (Scoring & Emp Crowning Closed)
9:00AM - 5:00PM EST (Scoring Open / Emp Crowning Active)
This would force players to choose timezones that they are active in and end the Night capping / Day Capping issues. This would also help to push different play-styles at different times. Objective play during Primetime Scoring and Emp Pushes, AP farming on off hours.
Alliance Points
Alliance points have been pretty useless for a long time now, I remember when asked about adding things to be purchased for AP, @Wrobel cited the huge sums of AP that some have accumulated as a reason to be cautious adding things but that is only a problem because there is nothing worth buying. The changes to gearing I discussed earlier would go a long way in clearing some of that AP up but we need more. Adding the flower satchels to the Tel Var vendor was an awesome move, maybe having an AP variant as well would be good. Gold tempers would be nice to purchase with AP too, something like 31,250 AP would work out to 250K AP to upgrade one item, I think that’s reasonable.
Cosmetic things are great too, I can’t speak for everyone here but I know for me it was a slap in the face that the alliance themed horses were a cash shop thing and not a PvP reward. I know your cash shop is where the money comes from but give us something. I would like to see the alliance style motifs added to the vendors, maybe some cool costumes or polymorphs like you can buy in IC. With housing coming up there is a huge opportunity to add items we can use in our houses to an AP vendor.
TL/DR:
Make gearing through PvP a viable possibility and continually update rewards for the worthy. Make end of campaign rewards for the winning alliance worth putting in the effort to win a campaign. Provide things to spend our AP on, the only way you will ever dry up the huge supplies of AP that some people have is by making it a useful currency again. I look forward to hearing everyone’s feedback and input on what I went overboard with or anything I missed, let’s make Cyrodiil great again!
@ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_GinaBruno
Edit 12/8 to add time gated scoring suggestion.
AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »Ghost-Shot wrote: »Warning, this post is going to be fairly long, tl/dr at the bottom. I’ve been thinking about it a lot lately and have come up with some ideas that would, in my opinion, improve both the gameplay experience and reward structure in Cyrodiil. From how the map is played (when it’s actually played at all) to how PvPers gear up, I think it’s time for a serious overhaul. I don’t want to get in to balance discussions in this post, we know it’s a problem and we have discussed it to death over the last few months, we have a balance patch coming up so it’s probably best to see where that goes before beating that horse again. Would love to hear everyone’s input and find out if these are all *** ideas or not!
Gear
In theory, having gear available in the towns was a cool idea but in practice, it’s really annoying. Our purchasable PvP gear needs to be moved back to the gates and made a little more reasonable to acquire. I know that those vendors are pretty much the only reason to go visit the towns right now; I’ll address that issue later.
Ok so first thing to address is the vendors. It’s clear that ZOS is set on using RNG boxes but they don’t have to be as bad as they are now. What should happen is take the 3 vendors, like they are now, so you have a light armor vendor, medium armor vendor, and heavy armor vendor, and put them at one of each faction’s gates. This way you always have access to all the gear vendors regardless of alliance without having to ride across the map and try and cap a town while some scrub is in stealth waiting to flip flags behind you. Then instead of selling one box that can drop every piece of Desert Rose for example, they would have boxes that drop Desert Rose shoes, Desert Rose pants, Desert Rose jewelry and so on. You still maintain some RNG and people don’t gear up immediately but it becomes reasonable. I know the PvE crowd needs some help in this area too, VMA is a real ***, but that is a topic for another post.
Malestrom/Master weapons, or at least some alternative, need to be available by some means through PvP. In the past, we had a chance to get Master weapons from the end of campaign rewards, that would be a good way to start if you are opposed to directly purchasing them for a huge amount of AP. PvEers complain all the time about having to PvP for things like vigor and caltrops so they were made easier for them to obtain, why don’t we get the same treatment?
The next thing to address is rewards for the worthy mails. The items offered in rewards for the worthy were last updated with the Thieves Guild DLC in March; we have been receiving the exact same items for 9 months now. It’s very important that the sets available through rewards for the worthy are updated every few months to give us useful items with the mails. When a group of sets is cycled out of the reward mails, they should be placed on a vendor at the main gates who sells them in boxes. This could be a good implementation of gear seasons, with each vendor carrying a particular season’s gear.
Campaign Scoring & Reward Structure
Let’s be real here, very few people care about the map or winning campaigns anymore (before someone comes in all triggered, I know some of you still do, you are just a minority these days) and that’s pretty sad, Cyrodiil is an AvA zone after all. I believe the lack of interest in winning campaigns is due to the lack of rewards for doing so. If my alliance wins a 30 day campaign and I have tier 3 rewards and I’m in the top 2% for AP earned, I get 30K gold, a few gold items that will likely be trash or something I’ve had for 8 months already and a few wall repairs. There is no incentive there for most of your guild raids and small man’s to care about.
Reward Structure Solution:
First thing is to add two more tiers to end of campaign rewards, tier 4 at 500k AP, tier 5 at 1 million AP. Tier 4 would put your rewards up to 75k gold, 5 pieces of epic gear, and a full stack of repair kits. Tier 5 gets you 150k gold, 5 gold items, a stack of wall repairs and a stack of door repairs, if your alliance wins the campaign. I’m not entirely sure about this one, but maybe when an alliance wins a campaign, the following cycle the get a 10% AP earned bonus. I realize this seems like huge rewards but if you want people to care, the incentive has to be there.
Campaign Score Solution:
The everything is worth 1 point score system needs to go, there is no reason to spread out to different places on the map when none of those locations are actually valuable targets. I have come up with some numbers that I think would be good for score values, would love to hear what everyone thinks about them:Tri-keeps (Rayles/Wraden/Glademist ) = 5 points each
Tri-keep resources = 2 points each
Dragon/Drake/Brindle and their resources = 3 points each
Emp ring keeps & resources = 2 points for home keeps, 1 point for enemy keeps
Outposts = 2 points each
Towns = 5 points each
Scrolls = 10 points each
Provided proper rewards are implemented for winning a campaign, having higher value targets deep in enemy territory would help spreading people out on the map, you are still going to have the frontline zerg on the ring (it’s never going away, just accept that) but you will also have the more organized forces all over the place.
The other possible way to make people care about the map is probably going to be a bit of a controversial one but I will put it out there anyway, campaign buffs in PvE. I know it creates some issues for leaderboards but I know a lot of people who only ever tried PvP to help get their buff servers back and ended up loving it, it’s a great way to make people want to hold a map and bring new players into PvP. Even when we had enough campaigns to have proper buff servers, going in a breaking up an enemy held buff server was always a fun thing for guilds to do while main servers were slow.
Awesome suggestion by @Crispen_Longbow to gate scoring times by campaign:Crispen_Longbow wrote: »Ghost-Shot wrote: »Campaign Scoring & Reward Structure
Let’s be real here, very few people care about the map or winning campaigns anymore (before someone comes in all triggered, I know some of you still do, you are just a minority these days) and that’s pretty sad, Cyrodiil is an AvA zone after all. I believe the lack of interest in winning campaigns is due to the lack of rewards for doing so. If my alliance wins a 30 day campaign and I have tier 3 rewards and I’m in the top 2% for AP earned, I get 30K gold, a few gold items that will likely be trash or something I’ve had for 8 months already and a few wall repairs. There is no incentive there for most of your guild raids and small man’s to care about.
Campaign Score Solution:
The everything is worth 1 point score system needs to go, there is no reason to spread out to different places on the map when none of those locations are actually valuable targets. I have come up with some numbers that I think would be good for score values, would love to hear what everyone thinks about them:
All of the above are great suggestions. I believe we are missing one crucial one for people to care about campaign wins. Create campaigns that are locked to 8 hour scouring periods. Also tie it to Emp crowning. You can only crown an Emp while scoring is open.
Trueflame
5:00PM - 1:00AM EST (Scoring Open / Emp Crowning Active)
1:00AM - 9:00AM EST (Scoring & Emp Crowning Closed)
9:00AM - 5:00PM EST (Scoring & Emp Crowning Closed)
Haderus
5:00PM - 1:00AM EST (Scoring & Emp Crowning Closed)
1:00AM - 9:00AM EST (Scoring Open / Emp Crowning Active)
9:00AM - 5:00PM EST (Scoring & Emp Crowning Closed)
Azuras Star
5:00PM - 1:00AM EST (Scoring & Emp Crowning Closed)
1:00AM - 9:00AM EST (Scoring & Emp Crowning Closed)
9:00AM - 5:00PM EST (Scoring Open / Emp Crowning Active)
This would force players to choose timezones that they are active in and end the Night capping / Day Capping issues. This would also help to push different play-styles at different times. Objective play during Primetime Scoring and Emp Pushes, AP farming on off hours.
Alliance Points
Alliance points have been pretty useless for a long time now, I remember when asked about adding things to be purchased for AP, @Wrobel cited the huge sums of AP that some have accumulated as a reason to be cautious adding things but that is only a problem because there is nothing worth buying. The changes to gearing I discussed earlier would go a long way in clearing some of that AP up but we need more. Adding the flower satchels to the Tel Var vendor was an awesome move, maybe having an AP variant as well would be good. Gold tempers would be nice to purchase with AP too, something like 31,250 AP would work out to 250K AP to upgrade one item, I think that’s reasonable.
Cosmetic things are great too, I can’t speak for everyone here but I know for me it was a slap in the face that the alliance themed horses were a cash shop thing and not a PvP reward. I know your cash shop is where the money comes from but give us something. I would like to see the alliance style motifs added to the vendors, maybe some cool costumes or polymorphs like you can buy in IC. With housing coming up there is a huge opportunity to add items we can use in our houses to an AP vendor.
TL/DR:
Make gearing through PvP a viable possibility and continually update rewards for the worthy. Make end of campaign rewards for the winning alliance worth putting in the effort to win a campaign. Provide things to spend our AP on, the only way you will ever dry up the huge supplies of AP that some people have is by making it a useful currency again. I look forward to hearing everyone’s feedback and input on what I went overboard with or anything I missed, let’s make Cyrodiil great again!
@ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_GinaBruno
Edit 12/8 to add time gated scoring suggestion.
The Crispin idea was pretty good. But instead of closing down campaigns why not do something a lot easier and just make regional scoring zones. Same idea of the world in 3rd, but each campaign would have Asia/Pacific scoring, Europe Africa and Russia scoring and finally the Americas. Scoring would be open for each third 4 hours before and after each zones prime time, after that map changes would have impact on the next scoring zone. A player is rewarded for their contribution to a scoring zone. Emps would then be regional too, and that might make for some instant thrones/dethrones as the map changes but i don't think that would be as incongruous as suddenly realizing you need to switch servers because it's 1:01AM and the server has entered duel/AP farm mode till 5PM tomorrow.
I think Crispin's idea will lead to less player liquidity because as soon as a new active sever hits you will pop off the one you are on to it, and likely on one of your other faction alts. This might lead to some severs having bigger balance issues as players will home their faction alt to the server with the best performing faction in that time slot, essentially creating 3 imbalanced "buff" servers instead of one active one.
I also think gear should be pretty easy to get to encourage new players to hit it. at this stage in the game nobody wants to farm stuff, I want to just get bis gear with cheap ap and have fun playing. I don't want to wait for RNG vendors, or drops, or farm boring things days/weeks/years.
Ghost-Shot wrote: »
Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying here but the idea isn't to close the campaigns outside of those times, just to shut down score evaluations and emp crowning outside of the specified time frame. That you can PvP and AP farm to your hearts content any time but at each servers prime time you have your chance to help earn a nice reward at the end of the campaign.