Kram8ion wrote: »

Nope choices aren't supposed to be easy and the way it is at least creates some diversity, which is desperately needed

Hold on, so more choices equal less diversity? I don't think that is the case. Some one above has a perfect idea by adding orbs to go with staves, quivers for bows, and something else for 2hand melee.

This would give, say a magic user atleast double the possibilities, that is inarguably more diversity. Really I have yet to see a single good reason as to why this change shouldn't be made.

alexkdd99 wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Riejael wrote: »

Jim_Pipp wrote: »

I don't believe you are getting 'shafted' I believe you have to make choices when building your character, and there are costs and benefits to each choice. This adds to the fun of theory-crafting.

I fail to see the benefit that offsets the cost of the downsides.

Really?

How many tempers/resins does it take to make a single 2h weapon gold vs how many to make two daggers gold? Which of those counts as two set bonus vs one.

No offset there you see? None at all? Nothing?

How many vmsa or other tough content runs does it take to find a single sharpened 2h weapon vs how many to get two sharpened daggers? Which of those counts as two set bonus vs one.

No offset there you see? None at all? Nothing?

Until threads about how too many gold tempers/resins are flowing into everyones hands clogging inventories and how bored everyone has become since all the bis vmsa etc weapons drop all the time in sharp or can be bought for 5g every weekend... until those occur i see these as offsets.

You may not.

Ummmm I think they meant combat wise. Everything you mentioned has absolutely nothing to do with combat. Like not being able to have 2, 5 piece sets with monster helm.

If they make this change they could make 2 hand require double the tempers. As far as vma goes they would just have to come up with a creative way to work those in.

There is no denying that you get an edge from using duel weapons or s&b. Any extra damage that a 2 handed weapon has doesn't come close to equaling the extra from have 2 weapons.

It's ridiculous have to use duel wield on magic toons with swords that you don't even use.

Not sure how you can say tempers offsets anything in relation to what's being discussed here. Or drop chance? I've seen more complaints about not getting sharp inferno than any other weapon in vma. Maybe say how you think the combat advantage equals out, instead of throwing economic reasons as to why they are equal.

I bet you are correct. I bet they do only want to compare combat effects .I bet they really want to focus on pve too.

Let's just do it.

Give 2h the second bonus, that will make it even better for pvp than it is now. Add in the cheaper to make, ladmg, easier to farm and the pve gains and we will have a whole new diversity esp with its passive, rally etc. Heck it's enchants gem to recharge even helps.

After all none of those matter in the face of the MSFD "more sameness for diversity" bandwagon.

If it takes 16 alloy to upgrade and two glyphs to enchant sure

Betheny wrote: »

IronCrystal wrote: »

you want to use the abilities from 2H with the benefits of DW weapons.

Once again (does nobody read previous posts), maybe you should try to identify what the issue is with 1H weapons skills rather than stubbornly attempt to deny 2H weapons the full set bonuses 1H weap users can get.

DW abilities basically only have a bleed, rapid strikes, an AOE, a *** damage mitigation, and an overly expensive dagger attack which does less damage than snipe. The dagger does give major brutality though.

2H on the other hand, has an ultimate generating cleave/AOE attack, a charge attack, a stun, an execute, and an amazing heal/buff.

There is no question which is better against players. DW doesn't even have a cc, mobility, or an execute.

Betheny wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

diversity

Maybe you should try to identify what the issue is with 1H weapons skills rather than stubbornly attempt to deny 2H weapons the full set bonuses 1H weap users can get.

TLDR

simply put, in summary i dont see the best or only "solution" to the "niche problem" of DW vs 2h (in end game, group/trial, pve, dps-sole-role play when mael-wpns are in play) to be an across the board sameification in set bonus counting for all content.

So i am sure we will not agree.

But anyway...


OK first some of the distortions:
1. VMSA daggers are currently Op and they tend to be the elements factored into these comparisons. that makes it less a comparison of skill lines vs a comparison of specific rare weapons.
2. When "DPS tests" are usually considered they usually mean bloodspawn backed up by healers and often with a tank to keep thew attention. That is a special comparison not linked much to actual in-game play outside of very specific content. has little to no comparison to solo pve play or pvp play.

From practical perspectives, i have a higher end character khajiit with both 2h and dw. have the same build. No maelstrom. has a 5-5-2 v 5-4-2 build difference. one of the the "OMG how unfair-not-the-same" and the 5th set bonus is in fact night terror which is over 2k poison damage to attacker per second proc/recap high percentage tho not one of the high burst. its a DPS gain boost, overtime that beats viper's 7500k/4s for dps, not burst.

In practice taking on larger targets but not long running boss fights, using JUST those weapon skill , the final DPS tend to be within 1k-2k of each other and it varies between the two based on how good my rotation was which critted more etc (crit chance diff is abt 8% iirc.)

One of the primary reasons why is RALLY.

practically speaking with Rally i can throw it up before a fight begins... then run pure combat effects for damage, not split damage+heal effects. I can focus on wreck/dizzy blow, brawler & executioner with weaves throwing inesp against multiple opponents where the shield is even better.

the passives which differ between the two also tell a tale. the 2H passives give aoe spill and give hvy attack empowering next attacks for 10% vs the DW where you get bonus if low health stunned or off-kilter type enemies.

I would much rather have brawler than the slashes morphs for solo play vs difficult content. it does less single target dmg but has multi-targets and has shield constantly refreshing. Against more than one foe its DPS will be higher.
I would much rather have Wb/DS than rapid and its morphs. better dmg plus other effects. (Dmg gets closer with good champ pts due to thau but not matching the effects.
usually thew whirling is the "no answer for this one" example and its pretty on point but by the same token 2h gets plenty of "AOE" boosts from brawler and forceful and its exec is better. just dont need +100% vs the trash as much as you need +350% vs one big guy.
Really rally, crit rush and executioner vs whirl, blade cloak and daggers i much prefer having the former three for soloing esp when soloing group content.

basically, except for high end PVE, group-only, sole-focus on DPS IMO 2H wins out over dw and then if maelstrom weapons are removed its not by much that DW even beats in that niche.

So for the vast majority of the play currently - Dw is not superior to the others with the set bonus in effect is overall play vs 2h/bow/staves class-builds. The set bonus brings it up to par - not heads ans shoulders no other option considered. But in the DPS role in the group content trials end game with mael-wpn sets it does shine currently... and then the bigger factor isnt really the set bonus.

Similarly, in practice, bow and magica staves have range and thus while their DPS vs bloodspawn is less, in practice where moving targets and shifting battlefields are in play as well as things like red circles around targets... range plays a role in their practical use.

All of which will be deemed irrelevant of course... as "PVP" doesn't count and economics/time to acquire doesn't count, and can complete content doesn't count etc etc etc... as long as one narrow area can be found where some believe DW to be superior within that niche and so a wholesale improvement for all places is the needed fix.

And even then... even then... even then... the solution doesn't have to be more sameness...

the crafting changes i suggest which would let 4pc crafted sets come into play allowing everyone to get a lot of variety in "end set bonuses" allowing all weapons sets to get three "end set" bonuses" in play or even four "end set bonuses (2-mael+2-mon+3-jewels+4/5-craft) and tuning the "lost bonus" down to one of the 2-3-4pc bonuses from a single crafted set. (the lost bonus could be the "max magica" from TBS for a stamina build or the "max stam" from TBS for a magicas build for example.

there are other "solutions" for "the problem" than more sameness" between weapons, even if one feels the problem needs a solution. (my 4pc crafter sets" are primarily intended to give partial fix, make crafted sets unique in their role to the current state of crafted equip as part of changes there, but just happen to also address/mitigate this "problem" in a meaningful way without weapon line sameness.

The outcome of any comparison of individual elements or even total packages is pre-determined by the constraints placed on the challenge to begin with more than the elements/packages being compared.

IMX 2h (inc ranged bow/staves and 2h stam wpns line) are more useful across a wider variety of play than DW is. Each has its place and play out basically fine based on my experience and comments of PVP players until you start talking a very narrow set of conditions often including maelstrom weapons (which makes me have a laugh when the 5-5-2 "monster" is included as part of the DW advantage. Might be more akin to a 2-mael-wpn, 5pc, 3pc jewel, and 2pc mon build in some cases.

Simple solution, 5th piece bonus on dual wield should have a debuff attatched to it, similar to the Kena proc.

Yes, but then the passives need to be rebalanced.

stephbay123 wrote: »

The only ones that can have 2 5 piece sets constant and monster set are those running dual wield or sword and board on both bars.

Being dual wield and bow gives the same as 2 handed- 2 5 piece running constant and 1 monster set at the most. No need to change anything

1 piece of a monster set

Betheny wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

The issue is PVP.

PVP isn't a good reason, more people PVE than PVP, you'd think a game would wrap the balance around the larger playerbase.

Also not a good reason because it's just not right that set bonuses aren't equal for every weapon type.

ZOS has been wrapping around PvE players since the game launched even when there was more PvP players. Just take a look at the expansions, they tell you the whole story.

It's more enjoyment for me to run 2 hand but I have to settle for dual for the extra piece.

stephbay123 wrote: »

The only ones that can have 2 5 piece sets constant and monster set are those running dual wield or sword and board on both bars.

Being dual wield and bow gives the same as 2 handed- 2 5 piece running constant and 1 monster set at the most. No need to change anything

Clever Alchemist and Armour master allow none dw/s+b users the option to use 5/5/2.....

If the majority of stamina users in Cyrodiil use a 2 hander than they must be plenty useful. And more and more magicka users are going back to staff since it has the most broken powerful ult in the game.