Two Handed Weapon Users Get the Shaft

dday3six · December 2016

Balance doesn't mean everyone has the same thing. 2-handed weapons traded a second set piece for increased utility and less materials to make and fully upgrade. It's lopsided for 2-handed weapons to remain as they are but count as 2 pieces of a set. They'd need to be overhauled losing some of their functions, and gaining increased material costs.

So remember there would be trade-offs if 2-handed weapons were to count as 2 pieces.

biovitalb16_ESO · December 2016

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Banana wrote: »

I dont get the point of posting this. So anything the community wants but ZOS chooses to ignore and NOT EVEN ADDRESS becomes a dead horse and we should just give up asking for it?

Then you just don't understand the meaning of the phrase. ZOS knows people want this and yet people continue to post 5,000 threads about it per week.

Strider_Roshin · December 2016

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

Staves and 2 handers should absolutely count for 2 set items.

And bows.

Strider_Roshin · December 2016

Right now all of my magicka players, and most of my stamina characters DW. There really needs to be some more build diversity in this game.

Tannus15 · December 2016

dday3six wrote: »

Balance doesn't mean everyone has the same thing. 2-handed weapons traded a second set piece for increased utility and less materials to make and fully upgrade. It's lopsided for 2-handed weapons to remain as they are but count as 2 pieces of a set. They'd need to be overhauled losing some of their functions, and gaining increased material costs.

So remember their would be trade-offs if 2-handed weapons were to count as 2 pieces.

I'd take it.

From a stamina point of view I honestly don't see 2-h or Bow as being "superior" enough to DW for DPS to counter the loss of a 5 set bonus (or a monster set bonus)

In fact, that argument is pretty much rubbish. DW has superior AOE to 2H, Steel tornado is best AoE, rapid strikes is amazing single target, quick cloak is fantastic, blood craze is also amazing. On top of that the DW passives are awesome and easily comparable to 2H. If you want more healing you can take bloodthirst instead of rapid strikes, or just hand a 2h on the back bar for rally. In fact, the only time I use 2H in PvE is for Rally on the back bar because I haven't unlocked Vigor on that character yet.

I don't care about material costs. It's a one off payment. I don't care if I have to farm an extra item to complete the build. What's one more item? I don't care if 2-hander immediately counts as 2 set items or if they split it into the sword and scabbard or whatever.

Just give me the same build variety that DW and S&S get.

Gilvoth · December 2016

Gothren wrote: »

may not be popular, but, we All Benifit from this.
someday when you want to use a bow, staff, or longblade. you will wish you had this ability to use that weapon as a 2 piece to help complete the 5 set piece your wearing.

SirAndy · December 2016

Lets just remove choice altogether and give everyone a wooden stick and a pretty skirt.

Oh wait, we had that, it was called 1.5 ...

scorpiodog · December 2016

Enemy-of-Coldharbour wrote: »

When it comes to being able to use two five piece sets + a monster set. Should two handed weapons count as two since they use two weapon slots?

Only if they nerf two handed skills.

Otherwise everyone will be running around with 2-handed again. The only really good thing about the proc set meta is that at least there's more diversity now and people aren't just using all the same build

dday3six · December 2016

Tannus15 wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Balance doesn't mean everyone has the same thing. 2-handed weapons traded a second set piece for increased utility and less materials to make and fully upgrade. It's lopsided for 2-handed weapons to remain as they are but count as 2 pieces of a set. They'd need to be overhauled losing some of their functions, and gaining increased material costs.

So remember their would be trade-offs if 2-handed weapons were to count as 2 pieces.

I'd take it.

From a stamina point of view I honestly don't see 2-h or Bow as being "superior" enough to DW for DPS to counter the loss of a 5 set bonus (or a monster set bonus)

In fact, that argument is pretty much rubbish. DW has superior AOE to 2H, Steel tornado is best AoE, rapid strikes is amazing single target, quick cloak is fantastic, blood craze is also amazing. On top of that the DW passives are awesome and easily comparable to 2H. If you want more healing you can take bloodthirst instead of rapid strikes, or just hand a 2h on the back bar for rally. In fact, the only time I use 2H in PvE is for Rally on the back bar because I haven't unlocked Vigor on that character yet.

I don't care about material costs. It's a one off payment. I don't care if I have to farm an extra item to complete the build. What's one more item? I don't care if 2-hander immediately counts as 2 set items or if they split it into the sword and scabbard or whatever.

Just give me the same build variety that DW and S&S get.

I wasn't simply talking about the 2H Stamina skill line, but also Destro, Restro, and Bow. I also wasn't just talking about PVE either, but also PVP. 2H offers more utility than DW in PVP. Proc sets are the only thing pushing DW in PVP right now.

Tannus15 · December 2016

scorpiodog wrote: »

Enemy-of-Coldharbour wrote: »

When it comes to being able to use two five piece sets + a monster set. Should two handed weapons count as two since they use two weapon slots?

Only if they nerf two handed skills.

Otherwise everyone will be running around with 2-handed again. The only really good thing about the proc set meta is that at least there's more diversity now and people aren't just using all the same build

you mean in PVP

PVE no one uses 2handed. There is no diversity.

Browiseth · December 2016

I'm gonna have to say no. The only reasoning I ever see this being promoted over is the grounds that "dual wield and s+b get an extra, so so should two handed"

That's not a very good reason though, is it? Of course dw and s+b count as two seperate items! Because they are!

Betheny · December 2016

Browiseth wrote: »

I'm gonna have to say no. The only reasoning I ever see this being promoted over is the grounds that "dual wield and s+b get an extra, so so should two handed"

That's not a very good reason though, is it? Of course dw and s+b count as two seperate items! Because they are!

Maybe they shouldn't be then.

SirAndy · December 2016

Tannus15 wrote: »

PVE no one uses 2handed. There is no diversity.

One of my endgame characters does ...

dday3six · December 2016

Tannus15 wrote: »

scorpiodog wrote: »

Enemy-of-Coldharbour wrote: »

When it comes to being able to use two five piece sets + a monster set. Should two handed weapons count as two since they use two weapon slots?

Only if they nerf two handed skills.

Otherwise everyone will be running around with 2-handed again. The only really good thing about the proc set meta is that at least there's more diversity now and people aren't just using all the same build

you mean in PVP

PVE no one uses 2handed. There is no diversity.

Classes are meant to diversify also, not just weapons. Even if 2H counted as 2 pieces it's skills would still be better suited for PVP. So players would still use DW because it's got better application in PVE. The divide of 2H for PVP, and DW for PVE was never solely about the set pieces.

TheForseti · December 2016

Jim_Pipp wrote: »

For anyone who wants to wear two 5 piece sets and a monster set, you can. If you prefer to use skills or passives from a two-handed weapon then you can't.

I don't believe you are getting 'shafted' I believe you have to make choices when building your character, and there are costs and benefits to each choice. This adds to the fun of theory-crafting.

It's only a cost-benefit analysis for builds that wish to use two-handers as their primary weapon. There is no cost-benefit analysis for tanks or dual-wielders. If it were a cost-benefit balance for everyone this argument would be valid. A magicka DPS build that needs a dual wield bar is asinine.

Tannus15 · December 2016

dday3six wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Balance doesn't mean everyone has the same thing. 2-handed weapons traded a second set piece for increased utility and less materials to make and fully upgrade. It's lopsided for 2-handed weapons to remain as they are but count as 2 pieces of a set. They'd need to be overhauled losing some of their functions, and gaining increased material costs.

So remember their would be trade-offs if 2-handed weapons were to count as 2 pieces.

I'd take it.

From a stamina point of view I honestly don't see 2-h or Bow as being "superior" enough to DW for DPS to counter the loss of a 5 set bonus (or a monster set bonus)

In fact, that argument is pretty much rubbish. DW has superior AOE to 2H, Steel tornado is best AoE, rapid strikes is amazing single target, quick cloak is fantastic, blood craze is also amazing. On top of that the DW passives are awesome and easily comparable to 2H. If you want more healing you can take bloodthirst instead of rapid strikes, or just hand a 2h on the back bar for rally. In fact, the only time I use 2H in PvE is for Rally on the back bar because I haven't unlocked Vigor on that character yet.

I don't care about material costs. It's a one off payment. I don't care if I have to farm an extra item to complete the build. What's one more item? I don't care if 2-hander immediately counts as 2 set items or if they split it into the sword and scabbard or whatever.

Just give me the same build variety that DW and S&S get.

I wasn't simply talking about the 2H Stamina skill line, but also Destro, Restro, and Bow. I also wasn't just talking about PVE either, but also PVP. 2H offers more utility than DW in PVP. Proc sets are the only thing pushing DW in PVP right now.

Yeah, Bow needs all the love it can get in my opinion. Poor bow line.

I realise that 2H is the PVP stamina line and DW is the PVE stamina line. I thought proc set builds were pretty much for 1hand & shield over DW though because pierce armour is so strong.

Personally I think the staff lines should be overhauled completely. For a start all the staff passive buffs should affect all magi class skills.

Yolokin_Swagonborn · December 2016

biovitalb16_ESO wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Banana wrote: »

I dont get the point of posting this. So anything the community wants but ZOS chooses to ignore and NOT EVEN ADDRESS becomes a dead horse and we should just give up asking for it?

Then you just don't understand the meaning of the phrase. ZOS knows people want this and yet people continue to post 5,000 threads about it per week.

So how do we know that the horse is dead? ZOS moves at a snails pace sometimes. Perhaps if we keep beating it, they will finally listen to us.

If not, then why even post of these forums at all? What is the point if ZOS just ignores everything we say? The nature of message boards is that popular discussions sink to the bottom and new threads are created about the same things. Multiple threads just shows more interest.

Either we need to give up trying to communicate with ZOS entirely or keep pushing for what we want.

Doctordarkspawn · December 2016

SirAndy wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

PVE no one uses 2handed. There is no diversity.

One of my endgame characters does ...

@SirAndy

And if you post DPSparses, build and rotation I'd believe you.

The problem is making it viable, if you've done so, I invite you to post how you made it viable.

And even if you have, this is by no means ZOS attempting to make it viable. We should not be experts at ZOS's broken design just to make something function in -any- context.

ArchMikem · December 2016

You have a weapon ultimate that can be used over and over if you defeat an enemy with it.

2handed skills are already powerful.

You have a never ending powerful weapon ultimate.

I'd support this if it also included Staff users.

threefarms · December 2016

It'd be nice, but I don't think you realize the power you would bring into the world. Especially the staff users.

Osteos · December 2016

It's one weapon so no. negative. nope. never

Vrog · December 2016

Why wouldn't they?

ZOS. ZOS, that's why. Terrible.

Doctordarkspawn · December 2016

ArchMikem wrote: »

You have a weapon ultimate that can be used over and over if you defeat an enemy with it.

2handed skills are already powerful.

You have a never ending powerful weapon ultimate.

I'd support this if it also included Staff users.

Explain to me how the twohanded ultimate that repleneshes on kills has any use in a dungeon when each trash mob has around 100 K health and the boss does not have multiple uses.

Explain to me how burst skills that do not compare to the synergy you can get, compared to Twohanded stam setups are 'powerfull' in the context of PVE dungeons and raids.

@ArchMiken Explain. How. This. Is overpowered in this context.

Blackfyre20 · December 2016

This thread is a perfect example of what is wrong with this game. Everyone wants to be able to do everything without sacrificing anything. Yes you give up an item slot but maybe it is worth it for you for the skills and passives. There need to be more tradeoffs like this which make players make meaningful decisions as to what they are building for.

ArchMikem · December 2016

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

You have a weapon ultimate that can be used over and over if you defeat an enemy with it.

2handed skills are already powerful.

You have a never ending powerful weapon ultimate.

I'd support this if it also included Staff users.

Explain to me how the twohanded ultimate that repleneshes on kills has any use in a dungeon when each trash mob has around 100 K health and the boss does not have multiple uses.

Explain to me how burst skills that do not compare to the synergy you can get, compared to Twohanded stam setups are 'powerfull' in the context of PVE dungeons and raids.

@ArchMiken Explain. How. This. Is overpowered in this context.

It's practically an Execute. You can hold off on the Ultimate until you get the Mob down to enough to where you know the Ult will finish it, then the bonus takes effect and your Ult is immediately usable again while everyone else has to still charge up.

For Bosses, yeah alright I'll give you that one.

STEVIL · December 2016

Tannus15 wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Balance doesn't mean everyone has the same thing. 2-handed weapons traded a second set piece for increased utility and less materials to make and fully upgrade. It's lopsided for 2-handed weapons to remain as they are but count as 2 pieces of a set. They'd need to be overhauled losing some of their functions, and gaining increased material costs.

So remember their would be trade-offs if 2-handed weapons were to count as 2 pieces.

.

Just give me the same build variety that DW and S&S get.

That may be the single most ironic sentence i have seen this year.

It is truly amazing.

Give you the ability to run the same builds, the same build structures with all the stamina weapons... and in the name of "variety".

Truly may be my favorite line of the year.

You get an awesome.

STEVIL · December 2016

Tannus15 wrote: »

scorpiodog wrote: »

Enemy-of-Coldharbour wrote: »

When it comes to being able to use two five piece sets + a monster set. Should two handed weapons count as two since they use two weapon slots?

Only if they nerf two handed skills.

Otherwise everyone will be running around with 2-handed again. The only really good thing about the proc set meta is that at least there's more diversity now and people aren't just using all the same build

you mean in PVP

PVE no one uses 2handed. There is no diversity.

I see 2h weapons practicaly every day, not counting my chars.

Are you perhaps limiting you sample size to end game trials/arena competitive content that has what, maybe one player in twenty participating?

GreenSoup2HoT · December 2016

Not gonna happen. If you want an explanation why see my comments in previous threads because for some reason someone has to keep reopening this topic and doesn't understand why it wont happen.

This is one of those moments where 2 kids each have 1 ice-cream cone. One has sprinkles (2h weapons) and the other has chocolate chips (dw/s+b). You complain that you dont have chocolate chips and insist you should have them but neglect the fact you have sprinkles. You moan and grown all day because you want chocolate chips so bad but forget you have sprinkles. Chocolate chip ice-cream over here is hella jealous of your sprinkles (2h/bow passives, destro ult) but are satisfied because chocolate chip (extra set bonus that makes them decent) is just enough of a tipping point to pass on sprinkles even though they are really good and arguably better then chocolate chip.

Also you neglect Armour master (caramel pieces) and clever alchemist (fudge pieces) that can allow sprinkles icecream to get that little extra topping they want with 5/5/2. All they loose out on is the variety of choices compared to chocolate chip icecream since there is a bigger variety of drizzles/toppings that go well with chocolate chip (waffle cone crafted sets. peanut dungeon sets and walnut overland sets) compared to sprinkles ice-cream.

You get my little analogy here? Sprinkles is all you need for your ice-cream. There are ways to get a little more out of your Sprinkle Ice-cream but don't try and steal chocolate chip ice-creams thunder. Chocolate chip ice-cream is not the favorite in this scenario, however with extra toppings it can become something great. Stop being greedy Sprinkles!

alexkdd99 · December 2016

STEVIL wrote: »

Riejael wrote: »

Jim_Pipp wrote: »

I don't believe you are getting 'shafted' I believe you have to make choices when building your character, and there are costs and benefits to each choice. This adds to the fun of theory-crafting.

I fail to see the benefit that offsets the cost of the downsides.

Really?

How many tempers/resins does it take to make a single 2h weapon gold vs how many to make two daggers gold? Which of those counts as two set bonus vs one.

No offset there you see? None at all? Nothing?

How many vmsa or other tough content runs does it take to find a single sharpened 2h weapon vs how many to get two sharpened daggers? Which of those counts as two set bonus vs one.

No offset there you see? None at all? Nothing?

Until threads about how too many gold tempers/resins are flowing into everyones hands clogging inventories and how bored everyone has become since all the bis vmsa etc weapons drop all the time in sharp or can be bought for 5g every weekend... until those occur i see these as offsets.

You may not.

Ummmm I think they meant combat wise. Everything you mentioned has absolutely nothing to do with combat. Like not being able to have 2, 5 piece sets with monster helm.

If they make this change they could make 2 hand require double the tempers. As far as vma goes they would just have to come up with a creative way to work those in.

There is no denying that you get an edge from using duel weapons or s&b. Any extra damage that a 2 handed weapon has doesn't come close to equaling the extra from have 2 weapons.

It's ridiculous have to use duel wield on magic toons with swords that you don't even use.

Not sure how you can say tempers offsets anything in relation to what's being discussed here. Or drop chance? I've seen more complaints about not getting sharp inferno than any other weapon in vma. Maybe say how you think the combat advantage equals out, instead of throwing economic reasons as to why they are equal.

Tannus15 · December 2016

STEVIL wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

scorpiodog wrote: »

Enemy-of-Coldharbour wrote: »

When it comes to being able to use two five piece sets + a monster set. Should two handed weapons count as two since they use two weapon slots?

Only if they nerf two handed skills.

Otherwise everyone will be running around with 2-handed again. The only really good thing about the proc set meta is that at least there's more diversity now and people aren't just using all the same build

you mean in PVP

PVE no one uses 2handed. There is no diversity.

I see 2h weapons practicaly every day, not counting my chars.

Are you perhaps limiting you sample size to end game trials/arena competitive content that has what, maybe one player in twenty participating?

Probably. I'll rephrase. No one I know runs 2 handed dps and no one I know would recommend it at end game.
I'm the first person to jump on the "use whatever you like" bandwagon, and ~level 50 i'll use 2 handers cause why not? It's not like I have a monster set.

But once you're cp160, in PVE, stamina dps *should* be using DW and 5/5/2.
I'm not that guy who tells people how to play or what to use. I happily run dungeons with that guy spamming acid spray.
But that doesn't change the fact that DW is just better in PVE, and in no small part to having 5/5/2.
For example, Viper, Spriggan, Kra'gh is way stronger than anything a 2-hander can do.