Balance Idea: Round Numbers

THEDKEXPERIENCE · November 2016

Just wanted to throw this out there. Do you know how sets have things like "2 piece bonus: 933 Magicka" or "129 weapon damage"? Wouldn't it be easier to balance things if EVERY set worked in this fashion ...

2 piece bonus 500 Magicka
3 piece bonus 1000 Magicka
4 piece bonus 2000 Magicka
5 piece bonus a universally equal amount of damage, proc chance and cool down time.

If all of the procs did the same damage, for the same amount of time, at the same rate then nobody would be over powered. Similarly having some bonuses do 2000 damage while others do 9000 isn't right either.

If ZOS instituted round numbers that escalated with each additional piece we would see tons of different builds because they would all have the same potential.

Thoughts?

THEDKEXPERIENCE · November 2016

Nothing? I kinda figured I'd have 164 responses by now ranging from "insightful" to "L2P Brotato".

idk · November 2016

@danielpatrickkeaneub17_ESO

The games design isn't that simple so making set bonuses as you suggested won't do anything for balance.

More important, it's boring.

THEDKEXPERIENCE · November 2016

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

@danielpatrickkeaneub17_ESO

The games design isn't that simple so making set bonuses as you suggested won't do anything for balance.

More important, it's boring.

Disagree.

If you can make a value "933 stamina" you should be able to make it "1000 stamina" quite easily.

Then if you can make something an 8% proc chance every 3 seconds, I don't see why making it 10% every 10 seconds (just throwing round, basic numbers out there).

Lastly, I agree it's a boring solution. No doubt. But is that bad? Making everything so wacky is kind of how we got into the Procpocalypse in the first place. Nothing says they couldn't keep their fun looking animations but why does tremorscale need to be any more powerful than velindreth, that one with the deadroth, or even the one where you puke fire on people found in the first wilderness crafting station. They can all still do different stuff, but making every set equal in power output would solve most of the issues right?

Mic1007 · November 2016

The damage numbers on Proc sets are not the problem. The problem is when proc sets STACK and cause a huge amount of burst damage. Rounding off the numbers would change nothing.

Danksta · November 2016

The main issue is they do the same balance for PvE and PvP. This game will never resemble anything close to balanced as long as that continues.

failkiwib16_ESO · November 2016

Dear Brotato L2P, I gave you an insightful

Now to the issue, the damage types of this game vary a lot, and certain buffs only work on certain types of damage ....

Elemental Drain only works when the enemy is hit with elemental type of damage. That would put a whole new level of balancing problems for Magicka Damage users compared to Elemental Damage users, then we have the other types of damage... so having a bit different DPS numbers is a good thing for balance.

I don't know about the round-up or round-down thing, I don't see it as an issue. Would it help some of the lag issues, I will happily accept it

plskthx

THEDKEXPERIENCE · November 2016

Mic1007 wrote: »

The damage numbers on Proc sets are not the problem. The problem is when proc sets STACK and cause a huge amount of burst damage. Rounding off the numbers would change nothing.

But equaling them out should right? If they all had the same timer people could either choose to do a double proc or pick a non proc set with what is deemed to be an equal amount of utility. Maybe that's 500 or 1000 spell or weapon damage, maybe it's 5000 more magic or stamina. Maybe it's 10,000 more physical, or spell resistance or 2000 more crit resistance. At some point there has to be a nearly even point where someone will legitimately chose to not use a double proc set without completely destroying their usefulness.

Personally if my Julianos gear was giving me 1000 more spell power instead of 299 (what a randomly weird number) I'd be inclined to give it a lot of consideration.

THEDKEXPERIENCE · November 2016

Danksta wrote: »

The main issue is they do the same balance for PvE and PvP. This game will never resemble anything close to balanced as long as that continues.

But making all of the numbers similar is a great starting point. Why does Hundings Rage do 300 weapon damage but Julianos does 299 spell damage? That's just stupid. It's like they arbitrarily pick numbers out of the air based upon a dart throw.

Even the upgrade material numbers make no sense. Make green 100 points better than white, blue 100 more than green etc.

Balance would be much more close to reality if the numbers were uniform.

THEDKEXPERIENCE · November 2016

failkiwib16_ESO wrote: »

Dear Brotato L2P, I gave you an insightful

Now to the issue, the damage types of this game vary a lot, and certain buffs only work on certain types of damage ....

Elemental Drain only works when the enemy is hit with elemental type of damage. That would put a whole new level of balancing problems for Magicka Damage users compared to Elemental Damage users, then we have the other types of damage... so having a bit different DPS numbers is a good thing for balance.

I don't know about the round-up or round-down thing, I don't see it as an issue. Would it help some of the lag issues, I will happily accept it plskthx

Pretty good point you have there, brotato!

I'm no expert on that ability. Is there a stamina equivalent? If so that's a good starting point.

failkiwib16_ESO · November 2016

danielpatrickkeaneub17_ESO wrote: »

I'm no expert on that ability. Is there a stamina equivalent? If so that's a good starting point.

Well the debuff on bosses from Elemental Drain can be obtained with 1hand-and-shield skill: Pierce Armor, however it's usually used for magicka sustain, as it provides magicka back to the user who casts elemental damage on that target..

Templars class have only 1 Elemental Damage skill, the rest are Magicka Damage
Sorcerer class have 1 Magicka Damage skill, the rest are Elemental Damage
<< those are just examples of magicka... I know very little about stamina, stuff like DK tanks cast Igneous Weapons to improve their teams weapon damage. It's a very good buff for magicka users who weave light/medium/heavy attacks and stamina users gain the best of it, since their skills get more powerful too.

Here take a look at skills on this website, it has helped me a little with stuff like this: http://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Skills

DMuehlhausen · November 2016

Danksta wrote: »

The main issue is they do the same balance for PvE and PvP. This game will never resemble anything close to balanced as long as that continues.

This is why I always try to say you can't balance PvP in a PvE based game where items, sets, and skills are designed around killing mobs with HP in the MILLIONS.

Only true option is make PvP only Gear and Skills. PvE items can't be used in PvP zones and vice versa. That is the only way you could ever balance a game like this.

Danksta · November 2016

danielpatrickkeaneub17_ESO wrote: »

Danksta wrote: »

The main issue is they do the same balance for PvE and PvP. This game will never resemble anything close to balanced as long as that continues.

But making all of the numbers similar is a great starting point. Why does Hundings Rage do 300 weapon damage but Julianos does 299 spell damage? That's just stupid. It's like they arbitrarily pick numbers out of the air based upon a dart throw.

Even the upgrade material numbers make no sense. Make green 100 points better than white, blue 100 more than green etc.

Balance would be much more close to reality if the numbers were uniform.

Reworking set bonuses to the extreme like you're suggesting would mean they would need to rework dungeon difficulty (which they just did). If they reworked x skill/proc set to do y in PvE and z in PvP, then the real balancing could begin, so I'd say that is the starting point. I'm not sure how round numbers would be contributing to balance.

Drummerx04 · November 2016

OP, your OCD is showing. I see no bearing on round numbers and balance. There are enough sets in the game with such varied proc abilities that you can't just make them all have the same cooldown.

Like the lich set for instance. When it procs it provides a crapload of regen, but how do you balance that against tremorscale by using the same cooldowns since the effects are completely different?

JD2013 · November 2016

May I ask how round numbers = balance?

The thing about game design is there's variables. The only way to truly have balance would be for every ability to hit for exactly the same damage and to have all sets have exactly the same nunbers.

And even then some people around here would still shout about nerfing something or other.

THEDKEXPERIENCE · November 2016

Drummerx04 wrote: »

OP, your OCD is showing. I see no bearing on round numbers and balance. There are enough sets in the game with such varied proc abilities that you can't just make them all have the same cooldown.

Like the lich set for instance. When it procs it provides a crapload of regen, but how do you balance that against tremorscale by using the same cooldowns since the effects are completely different?

Hold on ... I need to tap my foot exactly six times before I respond.

Haha. Ok, now that that's out of the way.

Wait ... my oven's on. Oh no it isn't. Or is it?

---

Jokes aside, it's less about OCD and more about simplicity. If the numbers are uniform and not 117 this, 129 that, 933 this, 299 that it's an easier place to start from. Then ZOS could use their powers to determine the spell power equivalent to Grothdarr's damage. While exact equality will never be totally achievable all we really need is for each option to be equally enticing to the playerbase.

Many of you love crit resistance. Well does 1000 more on a 5th bonus entice you to do away with velindreth? No? Well what about 3000 more? Now you're probably considering it.

At that point PVP would be more balanced because of the enticing choices. Meanwhile PVE will be balanced the same way as always, more or less HP on the monsters.

THEDKEXPERIENCE · November 2016

Drummerx04 wrote: »

OP, your OCD is showing. I see no bearing on round numbers and balance. There are enough sets in the game with such varied proc abilities that you can't just make them all have the same cooldown.

Like the lich set for instance. When it procs it provides a crapload of regen, but how do you balance that against tremorscale by using the same cooldowns since the effects are completely different?

Hold on ... I need to tap my foot exactly six times before I respond.

Haha. Ok, now that that's out of the way.

Wait ... my oven's on. Oh no it isn't. Or is it?

---

Jokes aside, it's less about OCD and more about simplicity. If the numbers are uniform and not 117 this, 129 that, 933 this, 299 that it's an easier place to start from. Then ZOS could use their powers to determine the spell power equivalent to Grothdarr's damage. While exact equality will never be totally achievable all we really need is for each option to be equally enticing to the playerbase.

Many of you love crit resistance. Well does 1000 more on a 5th bonus entice you to do away with velindreth? No? Well what about 3000 more? Now you're probably considering it.

At that point PVP would be more balanced because of the enticing choices. Meanwhile PVE will be balanced the same way as always, more or less HP on the monsters.

THEDKEXPERIENCE · November 2016

JD2013 wrote: »

May I ask how round numbers = balance?

The thing about game design is there's variables. The only way to truly have balance would be for every ability to hit for exactly the same damage and to have all sets have exactly the same nunbers.

And even then some people around here would still shout about nerfing something or other.

Having each set have the exact same numbers was my eventual end game. I figured using round numbers was just an easier way to get there.

The only balancing left at that point would be up to ZOS to figure out how much of one 5th set bonus would be reasonably equal to a proc or another vastly difference bonus. Figure the data behind who is using what would reveal that. In my idea there would be no reason for one set to be more popular than the rest so if ZOS noticed a large percentage of players using something they could target that for a nerf.

Rune_Relic · November 2016

Depends if you want them to hit like dots or burst......with a cooldown or cycle time
Its the DPS that you need to balance not the DPH

RNG DOT
1000 damage @ 100% chance every 1s for 3s with 5s cooldown
1000 * 1 * 3 / 5 = 600dps gross

RNG Burst
30000 damage @ 10% chance every 1s for 1s with 5s cooldown
30000 * 0.1 * 1 / 5 = 600dps gross

Burst
3000 damage @ 100% chance every 1s for 1s with 5s cooldown
3000 * 1 * 1 / 5 = 600dps gross

DOT
600 damage @ 100% chance every 1s for 5s with 5s cooldown
600 * 1 * 5 / 5 = 600dps gross

THEDKEXPERIENCE · November 2016

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Depends if you want them to hit like dots or burst......with a cooldown or cycle time
Its the DPS that you need to balance not the DPH

RNG DOT
1000 damage @ 100% chance every 1s for 3s with 5s cooldown
1000 * 1 * 3 / 5 = 600dps gross

RNG Burst
30000 damage @ 10% chance every 1s for 1s with 5s cooldown
30000 * 0.1 * 1 / 5 = 600dps gross

Burst
3000 damage @ 100% chance every 1s for 1s with 5s cooldown
3000 * 1 * 1 / 5 = 600dps gross

DOT
600 damage @ 100% chance every 1s for 5s with 5s cooldown
600 * 1 * 5 / 5 = 600dps gross

I love smart people. You get an insightful!

Rune_Relic · November 2016

LOL.
Anyway...I think the idea is they can have all available combinations, to enable 100s of unique sets.
Its a big list of possibilities but still finite and enables growth or new unique sets:

Health 1064
Stamina 967
Magicka 967
Health Regen 129
Stamina Regen 129
Magicka Regen 129
Weapon damage 129
Physical Resistance 1935
Spell Damage 129
Spell Resistance 1935
Weapon Crit 688
Weapon Crit Resist ?
Spell Crit 688
Spell Crit Resist ?
etc..

I guess at some point every combo will be available....so perfect balance for any build in regard 1-4pc bonus.
Whether the 5th pc will all be balanced in another matter.

I find it fascinating the way everything is equated with specific values
129 recovery vs 129 damage
There used to be proportional relationships with every attribute at every gear level.

Drummerx04 · December 2016

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Depends if you want them to hit like dots or burst......with a cooldown or cycle time
Its the DPS that you need to balance not the DPH

RNG DOT
1000 damage @ 100% chance every 1s for 3s with 5s cooldown
1000 * 1 * 3 / 5 = 600dps gross

RNG Burst
30000 damage @ 10% chance every 1s for 1s with 5s cooldown
30000 * 0.1 * 1 / 5 = 600dps gross

Burst
3000 damage @ 100% chance every 1s for 1s with 5s cooldown
3000 * 1 * 1 / 5 = 600dps gross

DOT
600 damage @ 100% chance every 1s for 5s with 5s cooldown
600 * 1 * 5 / 5 = 600dps gross

Well... The issue that most people have with balance - especially pvp balance - is what you have labeled RNG Burst. 30k instantaneous damage that occurs randomly no more than once every 5 seconds. This is effectively what we have in pvp right now with stacking set damage procs, so while each combo yield effectively the same dps for a boss fight in a group dungeon, in pvp the RNG burst would be absolutely lethal to everyone not in full tank spec.

This is why people are complaining about the state of pvp. The set procs can get way out of hand, especially considering that people can stack 3 damaging sets like velidreth+viper+widowmaker(which procs of of a poison for even more damage).

THEDKEXPERIENCE · December 2016

Rune_Relic wrote: »

LOL.
Anyway...I think the idea is they can have all available combinations, to enable 100s of unique sets.
Its a big list of possibilities but still finite and enables growth or new unique sets:

Health 1064
Stamina 967
Magicka 967
Health Regen 129
Stamina Regen 129
Magicka Regen 129
Weapon damage 129
Physical Resistance 1935
Spell Damage 129
Spell Resistance 1935
Weapon Crit 688
Weapon Crit Resist ?
Spell Crit 688
Spell Crit Resist ?
etc..

I guess at some point every combo will be available....so perfect balance for any build in regard 1-4pc bonus.
Whether the 5th pc will all be balanced in another matter.

I find it fascinating the way everything is equated with specific values
129 recovery vs 129 damage
There used to be proportional relationships with every attribute at every gear level.

Thanks for putting those numbers out there. One would think that to ZOS 129 recovery = 129 damage = 1064 health = 967 stamina etc.

If we went with what I was suggesting and changed 1064 health to 1000 health that would be lowering it to 93.984% of its value. To keep my head from exploding let's call that 94%. If everything was 94% of its value you would have 121 damage and recovery and 908 Magicka/Stamina.

While it's quite OCD of me, it just boggles my mind that the developers thought this was a good set of base numbers to build off of.

"Hey Lambert! I I think health is a bit weaker of a stat than stamina. I got it at 1000 now. What do you think we should set stamina to?"

"C'mon. Clearly it should be 908."

"Obviously."

THEDKEXPERIENCE · December 2016

Drummerx04 wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Depends if you want them to hit like dots or burst......with a cooldown or cycle time
Its the DPS that you need to balance not the DPH

RNG DOT
1000 damage @ 100% chance every 1s for 3s with 5s cooldown
1000 * 1 * 3 / 5 = 600dps gross

RNG Burst
30000 damage @ 10% chance every 1s for 1s with 5s cooldown
30000 * 0.1 * 1 / 5 = 600dps gross

Burst
3000 damage @ 100% chance every 1s for 1s with 5s cooldown
3000 * 1 * 1 / 5 = 600dps gross

DOT
600 damage @ 100% chance every 1s for 5s with 5s cooldown
600 * 1 * 5 / 5 = 600dps gross

Well... The issue that most people have with balance - especially pvp balance - is what you have labeled RNG Burst. 30k instantaneous damage that occurs randomly no more than once every 5 seconds. This is effectively what we have in pvp right now with stacking set damage procs, so while each combo yield effectively the same dps for a boss fight in a group dungeon, in pvp the RNG burst would be absolutely lethal to everyone not in full tank spec.

This is why people are complaining about the state of pvp. The set procs can get way out of hand, especially considering that people can stack 3 damaging sets like velidreth+viper+widowmaker(which procs of of a poison for even more damage).

This is why I think every proc set should do the same fixed amount of damage with the same cooldown. Have as many cool effects as you want but if it's straight single target damage, then it's always X. If it's an AOE then it's always Y, etc. We literally balance all the procs then buff the 5th trait of every other set to an area where people have to consider them for builds.

Maybe I started under the wrong assumption with the round numbers from 1 to 4 (even though a bonus for wearing 4 instead of 2 seems logical to me) but balance really seems quite doable if they are willing to base it around making the 5th piece bonuses equal in value.

failkiwib16_ESO · December 2016

Putting gear stats equal in value will create imbalance due to the fact that we have different types of damage, and there are buffs and debuffs for certain types of damage. Many skills come with different self buffs or group buffs.

Let me give you a little example of the differences between 3 very loved AoE class skills:
Templar class AoE: Blazing Spear - cost 3240 Magicka, Instant but need to be targeted on area, 25m range 8m radius

Send your spear into the heavens to bring down a shower of divine wrath, dealing [x] Magic Damage to enemies in the target area and an additional [y] Magic Damage each second.
Also stuns one enemy for 2 seconds.
While active, an ally can pick up a spear shard, restoring 25% Stamina plus additional Stamina over 10 seconds.
Spear ignites ground on impact. Stuns instead of disorienting enemy.

Sorcerer class AoE: Liquid Lightning - cost 3510 Magicka, Instant but have to be targeted on area (last 10s), 28m range/4m radius
(Ground)

Create a nexus of storm energy at the target location that deals [x] Shock Damage to nearby enemies every 1 second.
While active, allies can activate Conduit to deal [y] Shock Damage to enemies near the ally.
Has additional duration.

Nightblade class AoE: Sap Essense - cost 3240 Magicka, Instant, 8m radius.

Siphon the vigor from your enemies’ blood, dealing [x] Magic Damage to all nearby enemies and healing you and your allies for [y] plus 20% for each enemy hit.
If an enemy is hit, you gain Major Brutality and Major Sorcery, increasing Weapon and Spell Damage by 20% of 20 seconds.
Also heals you and your allies and grants you Major Sorcery, increasing your Spell Damage.

Sorcerer and Templar can cast their aoe from a huge distance, and still strike their enemies, while the Nightblade have to rush into the mob and cast it in the middle of them, because their AoE is melee.
Sorcerer benefits from Elemental Drain, Siphon Spirit and Mystic Orbs for magicka return.
Templar and Nightblade benefit from Siphon Spirit and Mystic orbs for magicka return.
The other morph of Nightblade AoE skill is stamina based and deals Disease Damage instead. The Templar and Sorcerer AoE's don't have Stamina versions, and Stamina players with those classes have to rely on weapon skills for AoE.
Templar and Sorcerer AoE's benefit from the champion skill Thaumaturge, the Nightblade AoE does not benefit from that.
The Nightblade and Templar AoE's give crowd-control, the Sorcerer AoE does not give that.
Nightblades and Templars spam their skill, while Sorcerers have to place it down and use Force Pulse to kill the enemies, because they do not benefit much from spamming it and it has a higher cost.

Then we have all the passives for the skill trees these skills come from, for instance Templars get 10% higher crit damage just for having a skill like Blazing Spear slotted, block 10% more from physical attacks, if used then 25% chance to give Burning Light damage to enemy (it's a huge additional damage) etc.

Templars and Sorcs can cast their AOE from far away, where the nightblade have to rush into the mob and don't even deal damage over time ....lol do you really want these skills to deal equal amount of damage? xD

Rune_Relic · December 2016

Drummerx04 wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Depends if you want them to hit like dots or burst......with a cooldown or cycle time
Its the DPS that you need to balance not the DPH

RNG DOT
1000 damage @ 100% chance every 1s for 3s with 5s cooldown
1000 * 1 * 3 / 5 = 600dps gross

RNG Burst
30000 damage @ 10% chance every 1s for 1s with 5s cooldown
30000 * 0.1 * 1 / 5 = 600dps gross

Burst
3000 damage @ 100% chance every 1s for 1s with 5s cooldown
3000 * 1 * 1 / 5 = 600dps gross

DOT
600 damage @ 100% chance every 1s for 5s with 5s cooldown
600 * 1 * 5 / 5 = 600dps gross

Well... The issue that most people have with balance - especially pvp balance - is what you have labeled RNG Burst. 30k instantaneous damage that occurs randomly no more than once every 5 seconds. This is effectively what we have in pvp right now with stacking set damage procs, so while each combo yield effectively the same dps for a boss fight in a group dungeon, in pvp the RNG burst would be absolutely lethal to everyone not in full tank spec.

This is why people are complaining about the state of pvp. The set procs can get way out of hand, especially considering that people can stack 3 damaging sets like velidreth+viper+widowmaker(which procs of of a poison for even more damage).

Yes it is exactly what we have now with proc sets.
And no I dont like it in the least bit for the record.
I was just getting over a concept with examples.

Burst is way out of control...as is TTK
RNG burst was just a whole new level of wrong IMHO (especially when they stack /facepalm).

themdogesbite · December 2016

Soft Caps.

Enslaved · December 2016

I'm all in for round numbers.
My OCD kicks in every time I see 299 spell damage on Julianos or similar BS

TX12001rwb17_ESO · December 2016

They should dispose of those extra numbers, you see back when ESO was young most players only had between 2000 > 3000 Health but you also only did a few hundred damage per hit.

Rune_Relic · December 2016

danielpatrickkeaneub17_ESO wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

LOL.
Anyway...I think the idea is they can have all available combinations, to enable 100s of unique sets.
Its a big list of possibilities but still finite and enables growth or new unique sets:

Health 1064
Stamina 967
Magicka 967
Health Regen 129
Stamina Regen 129
Magicka Regen 129
Weapon damage 129
Physical Resistance 1935
Spell Damage 129
Spell Resistance 1935
Weapon Crit 688
Weapon Crit Resist ?
Spell Crit 688
Spell Crit Resist ?
etc..

I guess at some point every combo will be available....so perfect balance for any build in regard 1-4pc bonus.
Whether the 5th pc will all be balanced in another matter.

I find it fascinating the way everything is equated with specific values
129 recovery vs 129 damage
There used to be proportional relationships with every attribute at every gear level.

Thanks for putting those numbers out there. One would think that to ZOS 129 recovery = 129 damage = 1064 health = 967 stamina etc.

If we went with what I was suggesting and changed 1064 health to 1000 health that would be lowering it to 93.984% of its value. To keep my head from exploding let's call that 94%. If everything was 94% of its value you would have 121 damage and recovery and 908 Magicka/Stamina.

While it's quite OCD of me, it just boggles my mind that the developers thought this was a good set of base numbers to build off of.

"Hey Lambert! I I think health is a bit weaker of a stat than stamina. I got it at 1000 now. What do you think we should set stamina to?"

"C'mon. Clearly it should be 908."

"Obviously."

I think its the way they scaled stuff
11 health = 10 stm/mag at any level

In the same token the damage calcs on paper divide mag/stam by 10.46
I assume an average of 11 & 10

So that gives app. 100 vs 129.
Still trying to figure out where the extra 30 comes from as an equivalence.

/giggling. But yeah I never really liked hard number anyway.
I think % are far easier to balance and understand (biasing the result for balance).
Flat number and/or % just confuses the hell out of everyone.

jaye63 · December 2016

The next time you start thinking balance... stop. Every game I have ever played that listened to balance ideas has gone into maintenance mode.

There is no such thing as balance. I've been playing PC games since before there were hard drives. It's never gonna happen. Dont help ruin another game.