Fixing the randomness of loot (Maelstrom) drops

BigES · November 2016

What steps is ZoS taking to improve the randomness of its loot system and actually rewarding players for playing? I play this game nonstop and still don't have necessary gear. This was very evident during the recent Orsinium event, and I can do 40 min Maelstrom runs. My suggestion is to make the Tudor (who is already a merchant) sell the Maelstrom weapons using something similar to the key shards. This can be implemented all around Tamriel. Stick a merchant in the major city of each zone and have each zone drop a special "currency" from the current bosses that drop the items. The currency can be used to buy zone weapons and armor. I'm not saying make it easy. I'm saying make it attainable. Give me something to work towards - not blind, discouraging randomness. I would rather spend 2x the time and be guaranteed the item I want than trust on the randomness of these horrendous loot tables.

SaibotLiu · November 2016

No, no shards or anything like that in place of a perfectly functioning loot system just because people must have this certain type of weapon with a certain trait on it to be optimal. MMO's were never intended to be fair, or all inclusive, or promising you any certain reward. They were supposed to be online virtual worlds where people connect and 'live' in that world together under that world's rules. That's it. Somewhere along the way a group got a hold of that very simple concept and profaned it with "it's about my time, my loots, my preference, my power, me me me etc." No, it's not about that buddy. And that same mentality has been wrecking and dumbing down mmo design for 12+ years now. And it doesnt matter, once you guys get your way or your item you'll move right on to the next thing that you're apparently entitled to. Turning the eso world and all others into trivialized, gamey gratification devices whilst completely *** the genre of it's last few remaining bastions of social and world building features that already take a back seat to your need to feel personally fulfilled.

So no, I dont believe there has been a Tamriel world wide evil boss meeting where they agree to carry around come **** me tokens, that doesnt even make sense.

@wollust lol you wanna try to form an argument again or you done already?

jakeedmundson · November 2016

SaibotLiu wrote: »

No, no shards or anything like that in place of a perfectly functioning loot system just because people must have this certain type of weapon with a certain trait on it to be optimal. MMO's were never intended to be fair, or all inclusive, or promising you any certain reward. They were supposed to be online virtual worlds where people connect and 'live' in that world together under that world's rules. That's it. Somewhere along the way a group got a hold of that very simple concept and profaned it with "it's about my time, my loots, my preference, my power, me me me etc." No, it's not about that buddy. And that same mentality has been wrecking and dumbing down mmo design for 12+ years now. And it doesnt matter, once you guys get your way or your item you'll move right on to the next thing that you're apparently entitled to. Turning the eso world and all others into trivialized, gamey gratification devices whilst completely *** the genre of it's last few remaining bastions of social and world building features that already take a back seat to your need to feel personally fulfilled.

So no, I dont believe there has been a Tamriel world wide evil boss meeting where they agree to carry around come *** me tokens, that doesnt even make sense.

You understand this isn't a job... or real life, right?
We (the buyers) literally ARE the reason this game exists. Tailoring it to fit the ideas of the majority would be the smart thing to do.
HA and what is social about farming vMA 100s of times? absolutely nothing.... its the opposite of being social.

That said.... i don't think there should be a token system for everything like the OP suggests. But for VMA.... absolutely there needs to be something in place. Dungeons, group trials, and overland items can be traded and/or sold (which makes them attainable in a reasonable way). In Maelstrom, there is nothing but (un)luck of the draw with a weighted loot system. There is no trading... no selling... no group effort.... you honestly expect people to keep playing this arena for months without being rewarded from the hardest content available? (besides vMoL)
The real situation is... people have quit playing because of vMA drop rates... and they continue to do so. I've run this place dozens of times (like many others) and have not even found the weapon TYPE i'm after yet.... never mind the right trait.

But here you are... complaining about how you enjoy it?... sorry, but you are 100% off with that opinion. Can we all assume you've found your sharpened "whatever mal weapon" already? Or you don't even go in the maelstrom arena so you have no idea what i'm talking about...

dday3six · November 2016

If not a token system. Then perhaps a better 'alternatives' system. Let craftable gear be closer in output to the perfectly rolled drop gear.

The biggest struggle, regardless of the solution, is to find the right balance between gear acquisition vs time spent playing. If it's too easy and too quick players will move on. However the other end, if it's too much and too long will cause burn out.

SwaminoNowlino · November 2016

The fact that you could actually farm VMA 24/7 and do nothing else for the rest of your life and technically never receive the item you want is a problem. This is the problem with anything that is solely in the domain of RNG. Its not limited to VMA either. You could want a specific item from one of the dungeons in the game and statistically never receive it no matter how many times you run it. This burden is alleviated by having group members that can trade items, to an extent. But VMA gives you no option.

Ah. The "if you don't like it then you can get out" philosophy. So endearing. Very good for business. When there are 5 people left in the game because they all got out and you are stuck holding your sword in your hand with nothing to swing it at, then this game will achieve its maximum utility for you.

AlexTech0x · November 2016

As i said in a post, the only people who doesn't complain about running vMA 500 times for 1 item are those who don't really have any concerns/things to do with their real life.

[Deleted User] · November 2016

Hello everyone,

Recently we've had to remove and alter a few posts in this thread for unneeded personal attacks. While it is perfectly fine to disagree with another member, we have to ask that you refrain from resorting to insults while making your point. Keep in mind that flaming is against the Forum Rules. For continuation of this discussion, please be sure to remain civil towards one another, regardless of their stance on the matter, and constructive towards the topic.

Thank you for understanding.

jeremiah911 · November 2016

Just speaking for myself, but I have quit MMO's in the past over bad RNG. I have blown my wallet wide open when getting a BiS piece of gear or weapon though. Something about being rewarded for my effort makes me want to continue to support the game I love playing.

disintegr8 · November 2016

I don't have an issue with RNG in this game, but then again I do not run vet Mealstrom.

Nobody forces people to repeatedly run anything over and over and over again just to get something they desire but do not actually need. Everything you need to complete the game is very attainable and just because you want something doesn't mean you can have it.

If someone is capable of beating Vet Maelstrom 200 times without the weapon they so desperately want, it is obvious they do not really need it. It is only that they desire to have it and not everything we desire is attainable.

SwaminoNowlino · November 2016

disintegr8 wrote: »

I don't have an issue with RNG in this game, but then again I do not run vet Mealstrom.

Nobody forces people to repeatedly run anything over and over and over again just to get something they desire but do not actually need. Everything you need to complete the game is very attainable and just because you want something doesn't mean you can have it.

If someone is capable of beating Vet Maelstrom 200 times without the weapon they so desperately want, it is obvious they do not really need it. It is only that they desire to have it and not everything we desire is attainable.

Except the setups needed to run VMA, a solo instance, are usually vastly different than what is needed to run end-game content and compete for leaderboards. So, you know, apples vs oranges here.

Again, it is statistically probable that people could do nothing but run VMA for the rest of their lives and never get the weapon they need. How is that a good system?

Meld777 · November 2016

Whatever opinion you might have, Sharpened vMA weapons make a big difference in DPS. I want to be competitive.

They have been handed out like candy before Dark Brotherhood. That's why there is a big player base with BiS weapons. If it didn't exist and the chance to get one was "1/140,000", as @SaibotLiu mentioned, I'd be fine with it. As a fact on the side, in all MMOs I played weapons that rare have always been BoE/sellable.

I am in a competitive raid. We were world 3rd to beat vMoL HM and still compete for 1st place in leaderboards. But since 3 people in our raid don't have vMA weapons, we feel the huge difference in group DPS to other main competitors (that were lucky to get their weapons before DB).

I ran vMA around ~430 times and never got my desired drop. All that time wasted for nothing. And I'm still not able to compete, not even in freakin' vMA because, guess what, you need Sharpened vMA weapons to even have a shot at Top 10 in a solo challenge against people with vMA weapons. @SaibotLiu, I'm not sure you understand how many runs 430 runs are. And I know people that ran 3x as much. They farmed this arena 10+ times a day for months. Some got lucky, but some didn't.

I've seen guilds fall apart over vMA drops. People that were lucky enough to get vMA weapons formed new groups while those without were pretty much forced to quit.

The reason I still play ESO is that I like my raid, the people are awesome. But the vMA grind with zero reward burned me out. If I got my Sharpened Inferno, I could keep enjoying ESO. As it is now, I just log in for the raids and don't do anything else in game. I like playing games where I can be competitive and where I'm not gated from it due to bad design.

I will wait for the next big update. If the BiS weapon design stays the same, I will probably move on to Black Desert (many good people I knew in game already made that step because vMA RNG screwed them and are much happier there). I want fair competition. The fact @ZOS_RichLambert hasn't commented on it yet doesn't give me much hope for ESO. At least in terms of fair end game competition.

jakeedmundson · November 2016

Meld777 wrote: »

The fact @ZOS_RichLambert hasn't commented on it yet doesn't give me much hope for ESO. At least in terms of fair end game competition.

This is probably the most frustrating part of it... thread after thread after thread ignored for about a year now.

At least give us something... be mysterious if you want and tell us something is in the works for a change... even say "it's not changing" if that's the truth... but don't just let people feel screwed and lost in that RNG nightmare.

If it isn't changing... it won't effect me now... i stopped running it after 50 drops from the double event still didn't get me a lightning staff... but if there was some hope for a future patch... i would stick around wrothgar.

jeremiah911 · November 2016

I am also disappointed @ZOS_RichLambert hasn't chimed in on any of these vMA RNG threads. I know hes a fan of vMA as I watch / enjoy his Twitch streams and love that he interacts with the community and posts his vMA scores on Twitter (devs do play their own game and are pretty darn good).

As many have mentioned before, I wish @ZOS_RichLambert would address the RNG topic regardless of what the decision is. I would hope everyone could move on with their ESO lives after that.

Waseem · November 2016

people been suggesting token system since the first week of maelstrom's launch, nothing until today.. they announced this change which garuntees you to have all useless stuff you dont want:
here

Oreyn_Bearclaw · November 2016

jeremiah911 wrote: »

I am also disappointed @ZOS_RichLambert hasn't chimed in on any of these vMA RNG threads. I know hes a fan of vMA as I watch / enjoy his Twitch streams and love that he interacts with the community and posts his vMA scores on Twitter (devs do play their own game and are pretty darn good).

As many have mentioned before, I wish @ZOS_RichLambert would address the RNG topic regardless of what the decision is. I would hope everyone could move on with their ESO lives after that.

This is the most insightful comment on this thread. @ZOS_RichLambert PLEASE just tell us if there are plans to address this. You are the only one with the power to stop the rage threads. If the plan is to never do anything, just tell us so we can move on. You say you listen to feedback, well, this is becoming the most consistent topic on the forums. The general consensus of the feedback is that something needs to be done. Are the plans to do anything?

ZOS_DaryaK · November 2016

More posts have been removed. This discussion is about the randomness of Maelstrom drops. This is not a discussion about the difficulty of ESO or whether it qualifies as an MMO. There are other threads for that.

We have removed all off-topic posts from this discussion.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · November 2016

ZOS_DaryaK wrote: »

More posts have been removed. This discussion is about the randomness of Maelstrom drops. This is not a discussion about the difficulty of ESO or whether it qualifies as an MMO. There are other threads for that.

We have removed all off-topic posts from this discussion.

In fairness, the difficulty of ESO is relevant to the discussion of BIS weapons and their drops. Players argue that people are whining and these weapons are not necessary, so the Randomness is irrelevant. As these weapons are required to be competitive in end game (difficult content), discussions of difficulty are necessary to the conversation.

Remove posts if it makes you feel better I guess. It's the closest thing we will get to a ZOS comment on a thread about VMA drop rates.

zyk · November 2016

When ESO was in development, ZOS targeted the 'core' MMO audience -- especially WoW and RvR enthusiasts. However, while in development, Skyrim happened, introducing the TES series to mainstream gamers.

After launch, ESO failed to captivate its intended audience, so it was adapted to be more like Skyrim for a new ultra-casual audience. One Tamriel was the culmination of this effort.

All of this is to say @ZOS_RichLambert doesn't really care that the 'core' MMO audience is unhappy because ESO seems to be selling well as an "Online RPG" (what ZOS now calls it) to mainstream gamers. I believe he's said something along the lines of, "if you don't like it, play something else."

I think ZOS management thinks they are doing a great job because they are earning a lot of money by continuing to milk Skyrim.

Erock25 · November 2016

ZOS_AntonioP wrote: »

Hello everyone,

Recently we've had to remove and alter a few posts in this thread for unneeded personal attacks. While it is perfectly fine to disagree with another member, we have to ask that you refrain from resorting to insults while making your point. Keep in mind that flaming is against the Forum Rules. For continuation of this discussion, please be sure to remain civil towards one another, regardless of their stance on the matter, and constructive towards the topic.

Thank you for understanding.

Damn! I saw a ZOS response to a vma rng thread and got super duper excited. Oh well.

disintegr8 · November 2016

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

disintegr8 wrote: »

I don't have an issue with RNG in this game, but then again I do not run vet Mealstrom.

Nobody forces people to repeatedly run anything over and over and over again just to get something they desire but do not actually need. Everything you need to complete the game is very attainable and just because you want something doesn't mean you can have it.

If someone is capable of beating Vet Maelstrom 200 times without the weapon they so desperately want, it is obvious they do not really need it. It is only that they desire to have it and not everything we desire is attainable.

Except the setups needed to run VMA, a solo instance, are usually vastly different than what is needed to run end-game content and compete for leaderboards. So, you know, apples vs oranges here.

Again, it is statistically probable that people could do nothing but run VMA for the rest of their lives and never get the weapon they need. How is that a good system?

So to propose a solution, please don't pick on the numbers as I am trying to keep this simple.

Let's use weapons only - say we have 14 weapons x 9 traits = 126 possible combinations. In reality, every time you enter vMSA you have a 1 in 126 chance of getting the weapon/trait combination you want as well as a 1 in 126 chance of getting the same one you got last time.

Maybe a simple solution is that we get rid of RNG and say that a drop will not be duplicated for you until every possible combination has dropped at least once. We effectively guarantee that if you run vMSA 126 times, you will get every weapon in every trait once - you may get the one you want on the 1st run, the 51st run or the 126th run.

You could also reset the cycle at any time, say if you get your desired weapon on run 24 but want another for a second character, you can reset the counter so that you start another 126 runs with that weapon back in the drop pool rather than having to complete the current cycle before you can get it again.

Surely some would say that this is not fair but surely it is clearer and holds more certainty than what we have now.

The only other real option to me is a token system that maybe even covers a broader range of tasks instead of just vMSA so that we give others outside of vMSA a chance to get things that they want. Maybe a hard mode vet gives 1, a vet trial gives you 2, a hard vet trial (if it exists) gives you 3, vMSA gives you 4 or 5, etc., and there is a shopping list of weapons and armour to buy with them.

I am just trying to contribute to the thread here. I have never done vMSA, don't do a lot of PVP, have no desire to be emperor or be unbeatable in PVP and do not need BiS gear.

Meld777 · November 2016

@disintegr8 While I do like your post, your math is wrong. It is more complex. Weapons don't have an equal chance to drop (it's proven, not speculation). They drop in categories (Bow, Resto, 2h, Destro, 1h/s, 1h). Each category has a 1/6 drop chance. Some categories have 3 weapons (like Destro: Lightning, Fire, Ice), while others have only 1 (Bow), making the chance for a Bow drop 1/6 and the chance for a Fire Staff drop 1/18. And there are the traits of course... do the math.

~430 runs here, and the only Fire Staffs I have are Defending and Decisive. But hey, I have tons of Sharpened Daggers.

disintegr8 · November 2016

Meld777 wrote: »

@disintegr8 While I do like your post, your math is wrong. It is more complex. Weapons don't have an equal chance to drop (it's proven, not speculation). They drop in categories (Bow, Resto, 2h, Destro, 1h/s, 1h). Each category has a 1/6 drop chance. Some categories have 3 weapons (like Destro: Lightning, Fire, Ice), while others have only 1 (Bow), making the chance for a Bow drop 1/6 and the chance for a Fire Staff drop 1/18. And there are the traits of course... do the math.

~430 runs here, and the only Fire Staffs I have are Defending and Decisive. But hey, I have tons of Sharpened Daggers.

I had asked not to pick on numbers as I was proposing a concept and wanted to keep it simple.

What I expected was for someone to say there are only 12 individual weapons, 4 staves, 1 bow, 2 swords, 2 mauls, 2 axes and 1 dagger. In an effort to keep it a simple concept, I made no mention of weapon type (1H, 2H, etc) and have based my proposal on each weapon and trait having an equal chance of dropping. This may not be how it works but I play the game for fun and don't keep stats.

So if I were to correct my original post, I would only go so far as to say there are actually 108 (12 x 9) possible individual weapon/trait combinations instead of 126. I will go back to enjoying the game now.

BigES · November 2016

Very good feedback here, yet no response from the developers.

I can completely attest to the unfairness of the new vMA drops, and I feel bad for people who are just now completing it. I was beating Maelstrom and hitting leaderboards on two classes since the Orsinium patch dropped, and there weren't even 100 Dragonknights or Templars beating it. All-time.

I got most of my weapons early on. Duplicates, actually. Multiple sharpened inferno staves and such. Even without a guaranteed Maelstrom item at the end, it didn't matter. I ran it once a week. But there were two items in particular I want now (that I didn't need at the time), and when I heard about the double drop event, I thought I would go back in Maelstrom and finish farming the two remaining items I needed. Boy was i wrong. Dozens and dozens of runs later, not a single lightning staff in ANY trait.

Somehow I think the developers are concerned that the people who already have the majority of their weapons will feel cheated if they make them more "accessible" now that damage has creeped up and vMA is easier.