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price ceiling for dreugh wax and tempering alloys

  • BigES
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    BigES wrote: »
    This comes down to a concern on game balance. Can I spend time farming, shopping - etc. and attempt to gold and finalize all my gear? Yes. Absolutely. I play this game more than enough. But the opportunity cost is that I don't get to do something else productive (or fun). Like - play the game. PvP. Do a dungeon. A trial. Do something that makes me interact with other players and keep the game community healthy.

    This game is suffering from a grindy, RNG loot imbalance that is consuming too many people's time and turning them off to the game.

    Just because YOU don't like farming/crafting/trading activities doesn't mean nobody likes them.
    If these type of activities would be made worthless (as you suggest), I would be gone from the game (I'm done with dungeons and trials, done, redone, re-redone..., and PvP is too toxic to be fun on a regular basis ).
    Market game on the other hand is always suprising and puts me in touch with a lot of people in the game that I love chatting with and getting to know.
    Please don't ask for MY activity to be taken away just so you can make YOUR activity more comfortable, because no activity has "priority".

    Besides, I know *many* endgame players who consider purple gear not worth their "incredible skill level", or think that it will gimp them to the ground. They feel "entitled" to have their stuff upgraded to gold immediately and are ready to spend up to their last coin on it. It's an attitude. Why shouldn't farmers/traders benefit from it ?

    ZOS already went a long way to help you (at our detriment) by providing potency runes, hakeijos, alchemy materials available from NPC merchants. The drop rate of gold tempers via crafting writs also was also significantly increased. Yet you're still not happy and want more ?

    Your base argument is why should your desired activity be negatively impacted to benefit another's desired activity. Fair enough. But likewise why should that person's activities be throttled by your actions? If you can afford to farm and manipulate the market and find that fun, then good for you. But it shouldn't necessarily come at the expense of another. Placing an artificial price cap is THE compromise to this, i.e. a tel var merchant. You can still farm and make your money off of people who cannot afford to farm or have no desire to participate in this secondary market, while others are free to farm tel var to improve their gear. Everyone wins.

    Exactly. If you're against my idea, then you should be vehemently against the Tel Var merchant who is now giving alchemy materials. That's a price ceiling. You should be against the Tel Var merchant who sells Hakeijos. That's a price ceiling. Its the exact same principle.
  • Mitoice
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    @BigES

    The solution is fairly easy for this......... increase the drop rate of yellow mats which is VERYY low... right now it takes approx 100 rub ore to get 1 temp...THIS IS INSANE..... or at least increase the amount of ore you get when harvesting.... this WILL decrease the price too... right now temps costs so much cause you have to farm 30 rub ore just to get one of them. I sell them at 15k but i will not sell them cheaply if they are soooooooooo hard to get... sorry... also, rubedite ore is the hardest to farm between wood and cloth.

    If they put a 5k cap for example on temps I and many others will simply stop farming them and you will have to spend hours to get them, so this is not a good idea.

    You may ask... why was temps so cheap 5 months ago??? very easy to answer, cause ESO was full of bots doing the job we now have to do manually ( there are still bots around but not to the extreme it was 5 months ago)
    Edited by Mitoice on November 22, 2016 4:09PM
  • Surak73
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    BigES wrote: »

    The gold sink IS the tempers and the wax, which is exactly why this is happening. Because what else do you buy with multi-millions other than the most desirable item? Gold is fiat money, but gold materials serve a functional purpose. They are hedge against inflated prices due to an extremely high gold supply.

    This is not what he means, since when you buy tempers or other objects frome players, gold doesn't evaporate but just moves from one's pocket to another's.

    A proper gold sink is when gold actually disappears from game economy, that is to say when players buy something not from other players but from game vendors.

    I think there will be a good gold sink with player housing, however.



    The simple solution is to introduce gold mats for tel var in IC. You sell copies of your DLC, you breathe life into the content, and you give people options. Everyone wins.

    Nope: I don't like farming tel var in IC, so I would win nothing... Inside game vendors should ALWAYS sell their goods for all the three game currencies: gold, tel var and alliance points. So everyone actually wins: pve players who can get gold, cyrodiil players who can get AP and IC players who can get tel var.
  • anitajoneb17_ESO
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    BigES wrote: »
    Again, this is not specifically about cost. Its also about time. Time is money.

    Yep. We also spend time farming stuff for tempers. When you buy a temper, you basically pay for the farmer's time in order to not spend the time yourself.
    Now what you ask for is the farmer's time to become worthless to save you precious time for combat activities without spending gold. A little bit one-sided imho.
    AzuraKin wrote: »
    must spend all your time just grinding for the raw mats (average gold upgrade mat from refining is ~.2-.5%

    Not all my time. But some time, yes. Is it wasted time ? Your mileage may vary. But OP is asking for that time te be declared worthless by ZOS - which I disagree on.


    AzuraKin wrote: »
    to a point yes it may hurt the economy for some players. but to be frank, 100% of the players who would be hurt by this are those that buy at say 5000 for 100 items (500k gold invested) spend 32 upgrading 4 weapons and sell the rest at 50% hike in price (7.5k). multiply this by say 100 players, everyone now sells at this price because heck price was driven up by people merchanting. a year later when those same players need to upgrade price may have dropped a bit but it will never drop to the old price. so for this scenario lets say it dropped to 6k. so they buy 100 at 6k (600k) upgrade thier 4 weapons sell the other 68 again at 50% increase in price (9000) and they will always have gold weapons, never cost themselves anything, but everyone else will pay for it especially new players.

    Stop your fantasies about the famous ESO trader oligarchy making up inflated prices for extorting everyone else.
    There are traders who look for deals and resell at market prices - yes. It's time and work to look for deals, they make that effort which you refuse to make, so it's normal imho that they get a benefit from it.

    Reversely, people selling at lower prices are the ones who don't want to put in what it takes (time, negotiation, research, trading guilds, advertising, etc. ) to find a better buyer. They lower their profit to avoid risks, effort and time, inventory management, whatever. Their choice. They're not being ripped off. They agree on the prices.

    Edited by anitajoneb17_ESO on November 22, 2016 4:36PM
  • Uriel_Nocturne
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    BigES wrote: »
    This comes down to a concern on game balance. Can I spend time farming, shopping - etc. and attempt to gold and finalize all my gear? Yes. Absolutely. I play this game more than enough. But the opportunity cost is that I don't get to do something else productive (or fun). Like - play the game. PvP. Do a dungeon. A trial. Do something that makes me interact with other players and keep the game community healthy.

    This game is suffering from a grindy, RNG loot imbalance that is consuming too many people's time and turning them off to the game.

    Just because YOU don't like farming/crafting/trading activities doesn't mean nobody likes them.
    If these type of activities would be made worthless (as you suggest), I would be gone from the game (I'm done with dungeons and trials, done, redone, re-redone..., and PvP is too toxic to be fun on a regular basis ).
    Market game on the other hand is always suprising and puts me in touch with a lot of people in the game that I love chatting with and getting to know.
    Please don't ask for MY activity to be taken away just so you can make YOUR activity more comfortable, because no activity has "priority".

    Besides, I know *many* endgame players who consider purple gear not worth their "incredible skill level", or think that it will gimp them to the ground. They feel "entitled" to have their stuff upgraded to gold immediately and are ready to spend up to their last coin on it. It's an attitude. Why shouldn't farmers/traders benefit from it ?

    ZOS already went a long way to help you (at our detriment) by providing potency runes, hakeijos, alchemy materials available from NPC merchants. The drop rate of gold tempers via crafting writs also was also significantly increased. Yet you're still not happy and want more ?
    So much this.

    I have my weapons upgraded to Gold, and the two sets of armor I wear. But if I ever deign it necessary to change armor, I will stick with Purple armor. Why? Because it's all I need.

    I spend my time exploring and Mat farming. I get enough Gold Mats to keep my gear Gold and I sell the rest. Why? Because of the mentality that you just spoke of.

    I have a surplus of Tempering Alloy, Dreugh Wax, and Rosin. I keep enough in the bank that I can/could upgrade any new armor/weapons I may make in the future, but if those "supreme skill NEEDS Gold gear" kids are going to pay inflated prices, then my part-time-merchant characters are going to sell the Gold Mats at inflated prices.

    But why should MY fun exploring, Mat Farming, and selling be restricted simply because someone else doesn't like the cost?

    Shop for deals, or farm your own Mats. Problem solved.


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  • Puzzlenuts
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    BigES wrote: »
    dsalter wrote: »
    Anyone play Diablo 2 and remember what happened with gold and Stone of Jordan's (SOJs)? They became the currency.
    Along with the jah and ber runes
    Edited by Puzzlenuts on November 22, 2016 4:07PM
  • Kutsuu
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    BigES wrote: »
    Nothing prevents you from farming your own tempers.
    It's not like any player has a monopoly on them.

    Clearly you've never attempted to farm dreugh wax in an area dominated by macro-enabled Chinese robot pet sorcs.

    Oddly enough, no. Doesn't prevent me from having over 150+ of them Dreugh Waxes in my crafting bag, all my gear golden, helped most of my guildies with goldening their stuff, all while selling tons of them and never buying one.
    Which in turns means that I have done a lot of crafting writs and also farmed and refined a lot of raw mats without ever meeting any of those "robots". They simply aren't there. And if they are, just go farm somewhere else. Don't tell me they're everywhere, because they're not.

    Prices are high because people are ready to pay that much. The answer to (too) high prices is either to lower the demand or to raise the supply, both of which you can contribute to by farming your own materials.

    Whoa whoa whoa. People want change, but they don't want to change. That's crazy.
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  • BigES
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    Surak73 wrote: »
    BigES wrote: »

    The gold sink IS the tempers and the wax, which is exactly why this is happening. Because what else do you buy with multi-millions other than the most desirable item? Gold is fiat money, but gold materials serve a functional purpose. They are hedge against inflated prices due to an extremely high gold supply.

    This is not what he means, since when you buy tempers or other objects frome players, gold doesn't evaporate but just moves from one's pocket to another's.

    A proper gold sink is when gold actually disappears from game economy, that is to say when players buy something not from other players but from game vendors.

    I think there will be a good gold sink with player housing, however.



    The simple solution is to introduce gold mats for tel var in IC. You sell copies of your DLC, you breathe life into the content, and you give people options. Everyone wins.

    Nope: I don't like farming tel var in IC, so I would win nothing... Inside game vendors should ALWAYS sell their goods for all the three game currencies: gold, tel var and alliance points. So everyone actually wins: pve players who can get gold, cyrodiil players who can get AP and IC players who can get tel var.

    A merchant who sold gold materials (at reasonable market prices) for in game gold is a gold sink. Its no different than what the Fed does to the securities market to control the U.S. money supply.

    Hell - you could make the merchant like "the golden" and just put him out there to draw gold out of the system temporarily if needed.
    Edited by BigES on November 22, 2016 4:12PM
  • AtraisMachina
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    20-25k temps in xbone
  • Stopnaggin
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    BigES wrote: »
    BigES wrote: »
    This comes down to a concern on game balance. Can I spend time farming, shopping - etc. and attempt to gold and finalize all my gear? Yes. Absolutely. I play this game more than enough. But the opportunity cost is that I don't get to do something else productive (or fun). Like - play the game. PvP. Do a dungeon. A trial. Do something that makes me interact with other players and keep the game community healthy.

    This game is suffering from a grindy, RNG loot imbalance that is consuming too many people's time and turning them off to the game.

    Just because YOU don't like farming/crafting/trading activities doesn't mean nobody likes them.
    If these type of activities would be made worthless (as you suggest), I would be gone from the game (I'm done with dungeons and trials, done, redone, re-redone..., and PvP is too toxic to be fun on a regular basis ).
    Market game on the other hand is always suprising and puts me in touch with a lot of people in the game that I love chatting with and getting to know.
    Please don't ask for MY activity to be taken away just so you can make YOUR activity more comfortable, because no activity has "priority".

    Besides, I know *many* endgame players who consider purple gear not worth their "incredible skill level", or think that it will gimp them to the ground. They feel "entitled" to have their stuff upgraded to gold immediately and are ready to spend up to their last coin on it. It's an attitude. Why shouldn't farmers/traders benefit from it ?

    Worthless? When did I suggest nobody likes these activities? Where are you getting this from? It doesn't have to be extremes. I'm after healthy game balance. Setting a price ceiling does not prevent farming or trading activities. It does make them less profitable, sure. So I can see why you're immediately against it. But I'm after reasonable balance, not extremes - and a price ceiling controls extreme price fluctuations. I have gold gear, but that doesn't mean I don't recognize a huge problem when I see it.

    You implied worthless with the "real" game comment.

    Sorry to say but crafting has been left behind. You can't make gold crafting gear, able to buy alchemy reagents, so yes us crafters are getting shafted at every corner. Why did I spend all that gold to buy motifs? All the dropped sets have taken away a lot of business from me, went to selling potions and flowers. Well now you can buy them. Trials gear, nope went to bop. Tempers, well let's take that too.

    There is no way to make it fair for all. Everytime they make a balance change it hurts someone else. There is no true balance that would make everyone happy,
  • Dagoth_Rac
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    Markets in the real world have regulations that prevent this. Free markets are not a natural occurrence. All markets trend towards monopolies in the absence of intervention. These regulations seek to stymie monopolies and minimize collusion.

    My favorite is guild stalls in popular locations with zero items. It is a dummy guild bought up by one of the other guilds in that town (or perhaps collusion by multiple guilds in that town?). So now instead of 5 guild traders at a popular location, you really only have 3. Limits competition, raises prices. While ZOS' efforts at limiting exploits in Cyrodiil often seem to fall short, they do not seem to have a hands off approach to combat-based exploits. They seem to want to stop it. They do not seem to have a desire to stop economic exploits, though, and they should.
  • OrphanHelgen
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    if they give us training dummies, we wouldnt spend *** loads of time testing our builds. Myself have used 4 times more tempers then nescesary, just becasue I didnt had proper testing.
    PC, EU server, Ebonheart Pact


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  • BigES
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    Stopnaggin wrote: »
    BigES wrote: »
    BigES wrote: »
    This comes down to a concern on game balance. Can I spend time farming, shopping - etc. and attempt to gold and finalize all my gear? Yes. Absolutely. I play this game more than enough. But the opportunity cost is that I don't get to do something else productive (or fun). Like - play the game. PvP. Do a dungeon. A trial. Do something that makes me interact with other players and keep the game community healthy.

    This game is suffering from a grindy, RNG loot imbalance that is consuming too many people's time and turning them off to the game.

    Just because YOU don't like farming/crafting/trading activities doesn't mean nobody likes them.
    If these type of activities would be made worthless (as you suggest), I would be gone from the game (I'm done with dungeons and trials, done, redone, re-redone..., and PvP is too toxic to be fun on a regular basis ).
    Market game on the other hand is always suprising and puts me in touch with a lot of people in the game that I love chatting with and getting to know.
    Please don't ask for MY activity to be taken away just so you can make YOUR activity more comfortable, because no activity has "priority".

    Besides, I know *many* endgame players who consider purple gear not worth their "incredible skill level", or think that it will gimp them to the ground. They feel "entitled" to have their stuff upgraded to gold immediately and are ready to spend up to their last coin on it. It's an attitude. Why shouldn't farmers/traders benefit from it ?

    Worthless? When did I suggest nobody likes these activities? Where are you getting this from? It doesn't have to be extremes. I'm after healthy game balance. Setting a price ceiling does not prevent farming or trading activities. It does make them less profitable, sure. So I can see why you're immediately against it. But I'm after reasonable balance, not extremes - and a price ceiling controls extreme price fluctuations. I have gold gear, but that doesn't mean I don't recognize a huge problem when I see it.

    You implied worthless with the "real" game comment.

    Sorry to say but crafting has been left behind. You can't make gold crafting gear, able to buy alchemy reagents, so yes us crafters are getting shafted at every corner. Why did I spend all that gold to buy motifs? All the dropped sets have taken away a lot of business from me, went to selling potions and flowers. Well now you can buy them. Trials gear, nope went to bop. Tempers, well let's take that too.

    There is no way to make it fair for all. Everytime they make a balance change it hurts someone else. There is no true balance that would make everyone happy,

    Actually no. I implied nothing. I'm stating that the game currently is favoring the grind activities that you enjoy. Buying, selling, and farming. And I'm willing to be you are definitely in the minority of people who enjoy doing that stuff. Maybe I'm wrong. I bet not.

    I'm not saying to eliminate it, but balance it. You keep saying worthless. Are you suggesting that with a price celinig (for example with the Tel Var merchant starts selling alchemy reagents) that columbine will no longer be sold?
    Edited by BigES on November 22, 2016 4:20PM
  • BigES
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    Mitoice wrote: »
    @BigES

    The solution is fairly easy for this......... increase the drop rate of yellow mats which is VERYY low... right now it takes approx 100 rub ore to get 1 temp...THIS IS INSANE..... or at least increase the amount of ore you get when harvesting.... this WILL decrease the price too... right now temps costs so much cause you have to farm 30 rub ore just to get one of them. I sell them at 15k but i will not sell them cheaply if they are soooooooooo hard to get... sorry... also, rubedite ore is the hardest to farm between wood and cloth.

    If they put a 5k cap for example on temps I and many others will simply stop farming them and you will have to spend hours to get them, so this is not a good idea.

    You may ask... why was temps so cheap 5 months ago??? very easy to answer, cause ESO was full of bots doing the job we now have to do manually ( there are still bots around but not to the extreme it was 5 months ago)

    Not a bad idea. But increasing the drop rate doesn't prevent multi-millionaires from buying up and stockpiling these materials still. It WILL decreased prices, I agree. But still doesn't solve the problem. And doesn't address the issue of not having a proper channel to funnel gold out of the economy into the vendors.
  • anitajoneb17_ESO
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    BigES wrote: »
    Your base argument is why should your desired activity be negatively impacted to benefit another's desired activity. Fair enough. But likewise why should that person's activities be throttled by your actions? If you can afford to farm and manipulate the market and find that fun, then good for you. But it shouldn't necessarily come at the expense of another. Placing an artificial price cap is THE compromise to this, i.e. a tel var merchant. You can still farm and make your money off of people who cannot afford to farm or have no desire to participate in this secondary market, while others are free to farm tel var to improve their gear. Everyone wins.
    Exactly. If you're against my idea, then you should be vehemently against the Tel Var merchant who is now giving alchemy materials. That's a price ceiling. You should be against the Tel Var merchant who sells Hakeijos. That's a price ceiling. Its the exact same principle.

    I wasn't all that happy about it, but also not vehemently against it. The difference being that goldening an item is a one-time and not-mandatory investment that people can make or not make, invest time for or not, whereas potions are consumables which you need continously for any serious combat related activity. I could feel the pain of dungeoners and raiders and I understand and support ZOS decision in that regard. But gold tempers ? No. They're just a bonus, if you want it work for it, either by farming or by paying.

    I disagree with the statement somewhere in the posts above that ESO markets are monopolistic and unregulated. They're not monopolistic because the production units (nodes, mobs, etc. ) are freely accessible to all - all it requires is to put in the work/time. That's why there's no monopoly.
    They're not unregulated either because there's a higher authority (ZOS) that sets up drop rates (i.e. the quantity of work required for obtaining 1 product) as they see fit and adjust them all the time, and that also defines bottom/ceiling prices for many, many goods via NPC merchants.

    I would strongly disagree with gold tempers being available for TV stones because TV are only obtainable via combat and I think non-combat activities are appreciated by many players and should remain profitable. If they want to "untighten" the market a bit they should rather raise the drop rates (which they did already significantly with One Tamriel, which already helped lowering the prices a bit - but not as much as it should have, due to crafting bags reducing the need to sell items at lower prices due to space necessity).

  • anitajoneb17_ESO
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    BigES wrote: »
    And doesn't address the issue of not having a proper channel to funnel gold out of the economy into the vendors.

    Housing will take care of that.

  • Stopnaggin
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    BigES wrote: »
    This comes down to a concern on game balance. Can I spend time farming, shopping - etc. and attempt to gold and finalize all my gear? Yes. Absolutely. I play this game more than enough. But the opportunity cost is that I don't get to do something else productive (or fun). Like - play the game. PvP. Do a dungeon. A trial. Do something that makes me interact with other players and keep the game community healthy.

    This game is suffering from a grindy, RNG loot imbalance that is consuming too many people's time and turning them off to the game.

    Just because YOU don't like farming/crafting/trading activities doesn't mean nobody likes them.
    If these type of activities would be made worthless (as you suggest), I would be gone from the game (I'm done with dungeons and trials, done, redone, re-redone..., and PvP is too toxic to be fun on a regular basis ).
    Market game on the other hand is always suprising and puts me in touch with a lot of people in the game that I love chatting with and getting to know.
    Please don't ask for MY activity to be taken away just so you can make YOUR activity more comfortable, because no activity has "priority".

    Besides, I know *many* endgame players who consider purple gear not worth their "incredible skill level", or think that it will gimp them to the ground. They feel "entitled" to have their stuff upgraded to gold immediately and are ready to spend up to their last coin on it. It's an attitude. Why shouldn't farmers/traders benefit from it ?

    ZOS already went a long way to help you (at our detriment) by providing potency runes, hakeijos, alchemy materials available from NPC merchants. The drop rate of gold tempers via crafting writs also was also significantly increased. Yet you're still not happy and want more ?

    Your base argument is why should your desired activity be negatively impacted to benefit another's desired activity. Fair enough. But likewise why should that person's activities be throttled by your actions? If you can afford to farm and manipulate the market and find that fun, then good for you. But it shouldn't necessarily come at the expense of another. Placing an artificial price cap is THE compromise to this, i.e. a tel var merchant. You can still farm and make your money off of people who cannot afford to farm or have no desire to participate in this secondary market, while others are free to farm tel var to improve their gear. Everyone wins.

    That person's actions could be solved by farming their own mats. His time is no more important than mine. Everything has a price, as a master crafter, I have to farm motifs or buy them, this costs me gold. I'm not a pvp guy so I either have to pay for akvari motifs, or go farm ap. I choose to spend gold to get them. I don't pissed about the prices, I only buy when I see a value in said product.

    Not everyone selling tempers are manipulating the market. When I sell I look at market prices and usually stay under them. If people don't like the prices they do not have to pay for them, they can farm for themselves and see how the other half lives.
  • Kodrac
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    BigES wrote: »
    Clearly you've never attempted to farm dreugh wax in an area dominated by macro-enabled Chinese robot pet sorcs.

    Wait... I thought they were Korean. :confused:
  • THEDKEXPERIENCE
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    BigES wrote: »
    Something reasonable needs to be done about the insane prices for dreugh wax and tempering alloys. A simple non-game-breaking solution would be to set a price ceiling by using a vendor who sells wax and tempers at "near" market value (Xbox is roughly 15k temps, 8k wax). This would prevent players from extorting the market and buying up all the materials in order to artificially inflate the price and collude. What is this... OPEC? A price ceiling would still make farming and selling gold materials profitable, but would prevent the market from extreme fluctuations in price when 1) you guys decide to change things like the heavy armor passives that lead to insane temper demand when everyone crafts and gold's their heavy armor, 2) people leave or join the game and the supply of these materials drastically changes.

    I farmed 25 Tempering Alloys during the Wrothgar event. Nothing needs to happen because they just gave us a large window to fix the issue that you must not of taken advantage of. And stop with the monster under the stairs "too many farmers" nonsense. You could get 1000 combined ruby ash, rubedite and ancestors silk in 2 hours no problem during that time. There was plenty to go around. If you still don't like it, do your writs.
  • DRXHarbinger
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    Nothing prevents you from farming your own tempers.
    It's not like any player has a monopoly on them.

    Ummm think you're missing the sheer number of people that still have thousands left over from survey glitching. We can deliberately keep prices high and it doesn't matter if anyone buys them asap we are not desperate for gold (anymore) there are hundreds of us that are doing this btw.

    I'll put 10 up for sale for 180k and someone comes along to sell his 1 for 17k. Big deal people don't bother to run about hunting them down one trader at a time. We even tried recently listing them at 20k a pop to try and push it up even more...it's getting there.

    Now I may sound like an arse but I couldn't beat them so I joined them.

    But if no one bought them for just a week then there would be a massive oversupply and prices would drop.
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  • THEDKEXPERIENCE
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    BigES wrote: »
    BigES wrote: »
    Nothing prevents you from farming your own tempers.
    It's not like any player has a monopoly on them.

    Clearly you've never attempted to farm dreugh wax in an area dominated by macro-enabled Chinese robot pet sorcs.

    Oddly enough, no. Doesn't prevent me from having over 150+ of them Dreugh Waxes in my crafting bag, all my gear golden, helped most of my guildies with goldening their stuff, all while selling tons of them and never buying one.
    Which in turns means that I have done a lot of crafting writs and also farmed and refined a lot of raw mats without ever meeting any of those "robots". They simply aren't there. And if they are, just go farm somewhere else. Don't tell me they're everywhere, because they're not.

    Prices are high because people are ready to pay that much. The answer to (too) high prices is either to lower the demand or to raise the supply, both of which you can contribute to by farming your own materials.

    This comes down to a concern on game balance. Can I spend time farming, shopping - etc. and attempt to gold and finalize all my gear? Yes. Absolutely. I play this game more than enough. But the opportunity cost is that I don't get to do something else productive (or fun). Like - play the game. PvP. Do a dungeon. A trial. Do something that makes me interact with other players and keep the game community healthy.

    This game is suffering from a grindy, RNG loot imbalance that is consuming too many people's time and turning them off to the game.

    This argument enfuriates me. I love PVP and haven't set foot in Cyrodiil in weeks. Why? Because I saw the opportunity ZOS was giving me with the Wrothgar event and decided to just grind materials. Now I can freely go back to plundering in Cyrodiil with a million gold and millions more in goods in my bank. Meanwhile you chose to do something "fun" and are now complaining that your fun is getting infringed upon.

    Here is the truth: if you want to have the most fun in an MMO long term then you have to nut up on occasion and do boring stuff for a short while. If you don't then pay the people who did.
  • Stopnaggin
    Stopnaggin
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    Nothing prevents you from farming your own tempers.
    It's not like any player has a monopoly on them.

    Ummm think you're missing the sheer number of people that still have thousands left over from survey glitching. We can deliberately keep prices high and it doesn't matter if anyone buys them asap we are not desperate for gold (anymore) there are hundreds of us that are doing this btw.

    I'll put 10 up for sale for 180k and someone comes along to sell his 1 for 17k. Big deal people don't bother to run about hunting them down one trader at a time. We even tried recently listing them at 20k a pop to try and push it up even more...it's getting there.

    Now I may sound like an arse but I couldn't beat them so I joined them.

    But if no one bought them for just a week then there would be a massive oversupply and prices would drop.

    I don't agree with your tactics, but your last statement is true enough. As I stated earlier, if people would look for the deals available, this wouldn't be a problem. The problem is they want it now and can't be bothered to put in the work. So they now complain because it's not right there right now cheap. Buying up all the temperson by a few guilds will only last so long. Everything has ebb and flow.
  • BigES
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    BigES wrote: »
    Your base argument is why should your desired activity be negatively impacted to benefit another's desired activity. Fair enough. But likewise why should that person's activities be throttled by your actions? If you can afford to farm and manipulate the market and find that fun, then good for you. But it shouldn't necessarily come at the expense of another. Placing an artificial price cap is THE compromise to this, i.e. a tel var merchant. You can still farm and make your money off of people who cannot afford to farm or have no desire to participate in this secondary market, while others are free to farm tel var to improve their gear. Everyone wins.
    Exactly. If you're against my idea, then you should be vehemently against the Tel Var merchant who is now giving alchemy materials. That's a price ceiling. You should be against the Tel Var merchant who sells Hakeijos. That's a price ceiling. Its the exact same principle.

    I wasn't all that happy about it, but also not vehemently against it. The difference being that goldening an item is a one-time and not-mandatory investment that people can make or not make, invest time for or not, whereas potions are consumables which you need continously for any serious combat related activity. I could feel the pain of dungeoners and raiders and I understand and support ZOS decision in that regard. But gold tempers ? No. They're just a bonus, if you want it work for it, either by farming or by paying.

    I disagree with the statement somewhere in the posts above that ESO markets are monopolistic and unregulated. They're not monopolistic because the production units (nodes, mobs, etc. ) are freely accessible to all - all it requires is to put in the work/time. That's why there's no monopoly.
    They're not unregulated either because there's a higher authority (ZOS) that sets up drop rates (i.e. the quantity of work required for obtaining 1 product) as they see fit and adjust them all the time, and that also defines bottom/ceiling prices for many, many goods via NPC merchants.

    I would strongly disagree with gold tempers being available for TV stones because TV are only obtainable via combat and I think non-combat activities are appreciated by many players and should remain profitable. If they want to "untighten" the market a bit they should rather raise the drop rates (which they did already significantly with One Tamriel, which already helped lowering the prices a bit - but not as much as it should have, due to crafting bags reducing the need to sell items at lower prices due to space necessity).
    Stopnaggin wrote: »
    BigES wrote: »
    This comes down to a concern on game balance. Can I spend time farming, shopping - etc. and attempt to gold and finalize all my gear? Yes. Absolutely. I play this game more than enough. But the opportunity cost is that I don't get to do something else productive (or fun). Like - play the game. PvP. Do a dungeon. A trial. Do something that makes me interact with other players and keep the game community healthy.

    This game is suffering from a grindy, RNG loot imbalance that is consuming too many people's time and turning them off to the game.

    Just because YOU don't like farming/crafting/trading activities doesn't mean nobody likes them.
    If these type of activities would be made worthless (as you suggest), I would be gone from the game (I'm done with dungeons and trials, done, redone, re-redone..., and PvP is too toxic to be fun on a regular basis ).
    Market game on the other hand is always suprising and puts me in touch with a lot of people in the game that I love chatting with and getting to know.
    Please don't ask for MY activity to be taken away just so you can make YOUR activity more comfortable, because no activity has "priority".

    Besides, I know *many* endgame players who consider purple gear not worth their "incredible skill level", or think that it will gimp them to the ground. They feel "entitled" to have their stuff upgraded to gold immediately and are ready to spend up to their last coin on it. It's an attitude. Why shouldn't farmers/traders benefit from it ?

    ZOS already went a long way to help you (at our detriment) by providing potency runes, hakeijos, alchemy materials available from NPC merchants. The drop rate of gold tempers via crafting writs also was also significantly increased. Yet you're still not happy and want more ?

    Your base argument is why should your desired activity be negatively impacted to benefit another's desired activity. Fair enough. But likewise why should that person's activities be throttled by your actions? If you can afford to farm and manipulate the market and find that fun, then good for you. But it shouldn't necessarily come at the expense of another. Placing an artificial price cap is THE compromise to this, i.e. a tel var merchant. You can still farm and make your money off of people who cannot afford to farm or have no desire to participate in this secondary market, while others are free to farm tel var to improve their gear. Everyone wins.

    That person's actions could be solved by farming their own mats. His time is no more important than mine. Everything has a price, as a master crafter, I have to farm motifs or buy them, this costs me gold. I'm not a pvp guy so I either have to pay for akvari motifs, or go farm ap. I choose to spend gold to get them. I don't pissed about the prices, I only buy when I see a value in said product.

    Not everyone selling tempers are manipulating the market. When I sell I look at market prices and usually stay under them. If people don't like the prices they do not have to pay for them, they can farm for themselves and see how the other half lives.

    Don't remember seeing the word monopoly. Moving on...

    Again a question of time and utility (happiness). Sure, we could all do what you do. I farmed ore this entire Orsinium event that I wasn't in Maelstrom. I hated it. It horrible and in no way rewarding to me. In fact, lets all just farm, trade, and sell. Wait - that is causing several people to leave the game who want to play competitively. Because farming (at unchecked, and unbalanced extreme levels) not enjoyable to them, and the time invested is not balanced. Even with double resource nodes it not worth it. No worries - we'll just save the time and buy the mats from people like you who enjoy it, so we can move on to other content we enjoy. Wait, what? Tempers are not reasonably priced?

    Maybe eventually they will all leave the game and you and the 1000 other farmers can live in node farming and crafting bliss.
    BigES wrote: »
    BigES wrote: »
    Nothing prevents you from farming your own tempers.
    It's not like any player has a monopoly on them.

    Clearly you've never attempted to farm dreugh wax in an area dominated by macro-enabled Chinese robot pet sorcs.

    Oddly enough, no. Doesn't prevent me from having over 150+ of them Dreugh Waxes in my crafting bag, all my gear golden, helped most of my guildies with goldening their stuff, all while selling tons of them and never buying one.
    Which in turns means that I have done a lot of crafting writs and also farmed and refined a lot of raw mats without ever meeting any of those "robots". They simply aren't there. And if they are, just go farm somewhere else. Don't tell me they're everywhere, because they're not.

    Prices are high because people are ready to pay that much. The answer to (too) high prices is either to lower the demand or to raise the supply, both of which you can contribute to by farming your own materials.

    This comes down to a concern on game balance. Can I spend time farming, shopping - etc. and attempt to gold and finalize all my gear? Yes. Absolutely. I play this game more than enough. But the opportunity cost is that I don't get to do something else productive (or fun). Like - play the game. PvP. Do a dungeon. A trial. Do something that makes me interact with other players and keep the game community healthy.

    This game is suffering from a grindy, RNG loot imbalance that is consuming too many people's time and turning them off to the game.

    This argument enfuriates me. I love PVP and haven't set foot in Cyrodiil in weeks. Why? Because I saw the opportunity ZOS was giving me with the Wrothgar event and decided to just grind materials. Now I can freely go back to plundering in Cyrodiil with a million gold and millions more in goods in my bank. Meanwhile you chose to do something "fun" and are now complaining that your fun is getting infringed upon.

    Here is the truth: if you want to have the most fun in an MMO long term then you have to nut up on occasion and do boring stuff for a short while. If you don't then pay the people who did.

    Funny how median prices for tempers and dreugh wax didn't change AT ALL even though the wrothgar event effectively doubled the drop rate for these materials. Hmmm..... facts....

  • anitajoneb17_ESO
    anitajoneb17_ESO
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    Nothing prevents you from farming your own tempers.
    It's not like any player has a monopoly on them.

    Ummm think you're missing the sheer number of people that still have thousands left over from survey glitching. We can deliberately keep prices high and it doesn't matter if anyone buys them asap we are not desperate for gold (anymore) there are hundreds of us that are doing this btw.

    I'll put 10 up for sale for 180k and someone comes along to sell his 1 for 17k. Big deal people don't bother to run about hunting them down one trader at a time. We even tried recently listing them at 20k a pop to try and push it up even more...it's getting there.

    Now I may sound like an arse but I couldn't beat them so I joined them.

    But if no one bought them for just a week then there would be a massive oversupply and prices would drop.

    So someone has oversupply (let's forget the non-legit source of them, that's not relevant for market mechanics) but doesn't sell all at once, but slowly, in order for the prices not to fall. Fine. That's simply clever. They delay income to preserve prices.
    You're not an a*se, it's just that there isn't much you can do against market mechanics - which proves that they cannot be manipulated that easily.
    I fail to understand what makes it a monopoly ?

    Besides, survey glitching is quite old now. Are you sure people who are supplying a lot got the stuff from the surveys ? To me it could be :
    - personal legit farming (some people do it extensively)
    - people who sell other people's stuff (I do that too, for guildies or friends who don't like to be part of a trading guild, don't want to bother listing items, etc... and I buy their stuff and sell it in my name in my trading guilds)
    - Bots ?

    That doesn't change global market mechanics though : supply vs. demand. No matter how high the people you're referring to are listing their items, it is only possible because there are people ready to buy at those prices.
    Edited by anitajoneb17_ESO on November 22, 2016 5:25PM
  • JahneeO
    JahneeO
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    Nerf Chinese farming robots!!!
  • SwaminoNowlino
    SwaminoNowlino
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    BigES wrote: »
    BigES wrote: »
    Nothing prevents you from farming your own tempers.
    It's not like any player has a monopoly on them.

    Clearly you've never attempted to farm dreugh wax in an area dominated by macro-enabled Chinese robot pet sorcs.

    Oddly enough, no. Doesn't prevent me from having over 150+ of them Dreugh Waxes in my crafting bag, all my gear golden, helped most of my guildies with goldening their stuff, all while selling tons of them and never buying one.
    Which in turns means that I have done a lot of crafting writs and also farmed and refined a lot of raw mats without ever meeting any of those "robots". They simply aren't there. And if they are, just go farm somewhere else. Don't tell me they're everywhere, because they're not.

    Prices are high because people are ready to pay that much. The answer to (too) high prices is either to lower the demand or to raise the supply, both of which you can contribute to by farming your own materials.

    This comes down to a concern on game balance. Can I spend time farming, shopping - etc. and attempt to gold and finalize all my gear? Yes. Absolutely. I play this game more than enough. But the opportunity cost is that I don't get to do something else productive (or fun). Like - play the game. PvP. Do a dungeon. A trial. Do something that makes me interact with other players and keep the game community healthy.

    This game is suffering from a grindy, RNG loot imbalance that is consuming too many people's time and turning them off to the game.

    This argument enfuriates me. I love PVP and haven't set foot in Cyrodiil in weeks. Why? Because I saw the opportunity ZOS was giving me with the Wrothgar event and decided to just grind materials. Now I can freely go back to plundering in Cyrodiil with a million gold and millions more in goods in my bank. Meanwhile you chose to do something "fun" and are now complaining that your fun is getting infringed upon.

    Here is the truth: if you want to have the most fun in an MMO long term then you have to nut up on occasion and do boring stuff for a short while. If you don't then pay the people who did.

    Ah, what a fantastic red herring you have thrown out there. Lets cast character aspersions to distract from the central argument. You have no idea how much time OP or anyone else spent farming. OP himself says this is less about a problem he has and more about pointing to an obvious area for improvement. OP likely spent 100% of his time farming VMA and Wrothgar, as did several others. Does that make the point invalid? Not at all.

    DRX just spoke to the problem as well and confessed to manipulating the market. Its not illegal by any means, but the proof has presented itself. Not slamming him or casting character aspersions, he took advantage of an opportunity. Doesn't mean he/she is wrong, but also does not mean that there isn't a problem.

    There are two sides to the basic economic equation. Its not just demand and its not just supply. There is a relationship there that must exist in a healthy environment for a market to function properly. You can be in the 1% and at the same time acknowledge that there is a fundamental problem. Everything isn't either/or.
    Xbox NA : CP 160 StamPlar, MagNB, MagSorc, StamSorc, StamDK, StamNB, Level 10 MagDK & MagPlar, StamWarden, MagWarden

    "We want firing off Dark Exchange in the middle of combat to feel awesome." - The Balance Lord Wrobel
    - And now it sure does, better learn how to bash folks!

    I get by with a little help from logic.
  • idk
    idk
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    BigES wrote: »
    BigES wrote: »
    Stopnaggin wrote: »
    You just need to learn how to get better prices. I bought 3 tempers yesterday 10k ea. Never go to guild traders for stuff like that. Prime example is the Psijic ambrosia frags. 120-10k on traders. I get mine under 50k ea. Learn how to work the market. Alot of low level players will sell low to get gold for something, I was buying frags over the weekend and a guy offered them to me @ 4k ea. I still gave him fair market value but there are people that either don't care or don't know.

    I'm aware you can find unsuspecting players who don't know what they have or the value of it. But I'm talking about the 90% market value, not the exception. I'm talking about the community price. If we all "looked for a deal" as you suggested, it wouldn't be a deal anymore, would it?

    Exactly. If everyone or at least many people made the effort to look for deals (instead of complaining about prices but buying anyway) high priced goods would not sell and prices would drop for everybody.

    Remember : everytime you buy something at a certain price, it means you agree on that price, because you have the choice to NOT BUY. In ESO there's nothing you cannot farm by yourself and thus obtain without gold (unlike RL where you have no choice but to buy some basic stuff regardless of price).

    Again, this is not specifically about cost. Its also about time. Time is money.

    @BigES

    The person you quoted is correct that we agree to the price we buy it at. Market forces set the price.

    Additionally, and more important, legendary quality gear is intended to be much rarer than epic. It's by obvious design in the game. The price should not be cheap.

    It's a choice.
  • anitajoneb17_ESO
    anitajoneb17_ESO
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    DRX just spoke to the problem as well and confessed to manipulating the market. Its not illegal by any means, but the proof has presented itself. Not slamming him or casting character aspersions, he took advantage of an opportunity. Doesn't mean he/she is wrong, but also does not mean that there isn't a problem.

    DRX merely said prices were high and he was following that trend because people are ready to pay those prices. No more, no less.
    He may feel guilty for charging those market prices, but that's another issue.
    Nowhere is there any mention of market manipulation. Rather the regret that it was impossible to manipulate them - if it were, he would perhaps try and put the prices down.
    People still seem to have problems with the fact that prices are not determine by either sellers nor buyers, but by the market. The level at which sellers and buyers can agree upon. There's nothing you can do to influence that - unless you have a very, very, very large market share - which is impossible on such widely and freely available items like in ESO.

  • SwaminoNowlino
    SwaminoNowlino
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    BigES wrote: »
    BigES wrote: »
    Stopnaggin wrote: »
    You just need to learn how to get better prices. I bought 3 tempers yesterday 10k ea. Never go to guild traders for stuff like that. Prime example is the Psijic ambrosia frags. 120-10k on traders. I get mine under 50k ea. Learn how to work the market. Alot of low level players will sell low to get gold for something, I was buying frags over the weekend and a guy offered them to me @ 4k ea. I still gave him fair market value but there are people that either don't care or don't know.

    I'm aware you can find unsuspecting players who don't know what they have or the value of it. But I'm talking about the 90% market value, not the exception. I'm talking about the community price. If we all "looked for a deal" as you suggested, it wouldn't be a deal anymore, would it?

    Exactly. If everyone or at least many people made the effort to look for deals (instead of complaining about prices but buying anyway) high priced goods would not sell and prices would drop for everybody.

    Remember : everytime you buy something at a certain price, it means you agree on that price, because you have the choice to NOT BUY. In ESO there's nothing you cannot farm by yourself and thus obtain without gold (unlike RL where you have no choice but to buy some basic stuff regardless of price).

    Again, this is not specifically about cost. Its also about time. Time is money.

    @BigES

    The person you quoted is correct that we agree to the price we buy it at. Market forces set the price.

    Additionally, and more important, legendary quality gear is intended to be much rarer than epic. It's by obvious design in the game. The price should not be cheap.

    It's a choice.

    I don't think you understand the concept of inflation...
    Xbox NA : CP 160 StamPlar, MagNB, MagSorc, StamSorc, StamDK, StamNB, Level 10 MagDK & MagPlar, StamWarden, MagWarden

    "We want firing off Dark Exchange in the middle of combat to feel awesome." - The Balance Lord Wrobel
    - And now it sure does, better learn how to bash folks!

    I get by with a little help from logic.
  • SwaminoNowlino
    SwaminoNowlino
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    DRX just spoke to the problem as well and confessed to manipulating the market. Its not illegal by any means, but the proof has presented itself. Not slamming him or casting character aspersions, he took advantage of an opportunity. Doesn't mean he/she is wrong, but also does not mean that there isn't a problem.

    DRX merely said prices were high and he was following that trend because people are ready to pay those prices. No more, no less.
    He may feel guilty for charging those market prices, but that's another issue.
    Nowhere is there any mention of market manipulation. Rather the regret that it was impossible to manipulate them - if it were, he would perhaps try and put the prices down.
    People still seem to have problems with the fact that prices are not determine by either sellers nor buyers, but by the market. The level at which sellers and buyers can agree upon. There's nothing you can do to influence that - unless you have a very, very, very large market share - which is impossible on such widely and freely available items like in ESO.

    Incorrect. Again there are two sides to the economic equation. You can ignore the supply side all you want, but it doesn't change how the equation works. When the monetary supply is held by a disproportionately small number of people, those people can quite easily control the supply side of the equation. And do. I'm a member of two trading guilds, each with millions and millions of gold in the bank. Officers will regularly take that money out, and go buy gold mats and other high value items to take them out of the marketplace. Its speculative investing, which is quite profitable both in the game and in real life. They then set the market price in the major locations, and work with other guilds to do so. They also buy trader slots and leave them empty. This controls every aspect of the market.

    Can people go farm items themselves? Sure. But that requires a time investment that some may not have. As more and more gold enters this game and isn't dispersed through sinks, inflation rapidly rises. The rich get richer, because they were able to diversify their investments. Some people just don't have those options. Creating a tel var or other merchant also creates a sink that takes money out of the economy and acts as a meter on inflation. Something your government does every day.
    Xbox NA : CP 160 StamPlar, MagNB, MagSorc, StamSorc, StamDK, StamNB, Level 10 MagDK & MagPlar, StamWarden, MagWarden

    "We want firing off Dark Exchange in the middle of combat to feel awesome." - The Balance Lord Wrobel
    - And now it sure does, better learn how to bash folks!

    I get by with a little help from logic.
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