price ceiling for dreugh wax and tempering alloys

BigES · November 2016

Something reasonable needs to be done about the insane prices for dreugh wax and tempering alloys. A simple non-game-breaking solution would be to set a price ceiling by using a vendor who sells wax and tempers at "near" market value (Xbox is roughly 15k temps, 8k wax). This would prevent players from extorting the market and buying up all the materials in order to artificially inflate the price and collude. What is this... OPEC? A price ceiling would still make farming and selling gold materials profitable, but would prevent the market from extreme fluctuations in price when 1) you guys decide to change things like the heavy armor passives that lead to insane temper demand when everyone crafts and gold's their heavy armor, 2) people leave or join the game and the supply of these materials drastically changes.

Izaki · November 2016

Last time I checked the prices on alloys were ranging from 17k-20k. Sadly there's nothing that can be done. Just hope for gold mats to be released in the Tel Var vendors.

anitajoneb17_ESO · November 2016

Nothing prevents you from farming your own tempers.
It's not like any player has a monopoly on them.

dsalter · November 2016

problem is theres to much gold in the system that means many people like myself have ample amounts which in turn leads to price hikes because they know they can get what they charge.
and without another gold sinking outlet that doesn't move it from 1 player to another it will only keep rising.

BigES · November 2016

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Nothing prevents you from farming your own tempers.
It's not like any player has a monopoly on them.

Clearly you've never attempted to farm dreugh wax in an area dominated by macro-enabled Chinese robot pet sorcs.

pattyLtd · November 2016

I expect the prices to go back to "normal" again when the hype of the new sets wears off a bit.
No need for ceilings imo

Stopnaggin · November 2016

You just need to learn how to get better prices. I bought 3 tempers yesterday 10k ea. Never go to guild traders for stuff like that. Prime example is the Psijic ambrosia frags. 120-10k on traders. I get mine under 50k ea. Learn how to work the market. Alot of low level players will sell low to get gold for something, I was buying frags over the weekend and a guy offered them to me @ 4k ea. I still gave him fair market value but there are people that either don't care or don't know.

anitajoneb17_ESO · November 2016

BigES wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Nothing prevents you from farming your own tempers.
It's not like any player has a monopoly on them.

Clearly you've never attempted to farm dreugh wax in an area dominated by macro-enabled Chinese robot pet sorcs.

Oddly enough, no. Doesn't prevent me from having over 150+ of them Dreugh Waxes in my crafting bag, all my gear golden, helped most of my guildies with goldening their stuff, all while selling tons of them and never buying one.
Which in turns means that I have done a lot of crafting writs and also farmed and refined a lot of raw mats without ever meeting any of those "robots". They simply aren't there. And if they are, just go farm somewhere else. Don't tell me they're everywhere, because they're not.

Prices are high because people are ready to pay that much. The answer to (too) high prices is either to lower the demand or to raise the supply, both of which you can contribute to by farming your own materials.

BigES · November 2016

Stopnaggin wrote: »

You just need to learn how to get better prices. I bought 3 tempers yesterday 10k ea. Never go to guild traders for stuff like that. Prime example is the Psijic ambrosia frags. 120-10k on traders. I get mine under 50k ea. Learn how to work the market. Alot of low level players will sell low to get gold for something, I was buying frags over the weekend and a guy offered them to me @ 4k ea. I still gave him fair market value but there are people that either don't care or don't know.

I'm aware you can find unsuspecting players who don't know what they have or the value of it. But I'm talking about the 90% market value, not the exception. I'm talking about the community price. If we all "looked for a deal" as you suggested, it wouldn't be a deal anymore, would it?

jakeedmundson · November 2016

on ps4 traders, tempering alloys are pushing 25k a piece... wax, kutas and rosin are all around 15k. (all these are literally twice what they were before 1 tamriel)

I don't buy them because its insanely stupid pricing. They would have to be back down to half that number for me to even consider it.

Want the prices to drop? everyone just stop buying until alloys get below 13k again... farm your own stuff for a couple weeks. Having to spend 400k to upgrade a set of DW weapons?.... umm.. no.

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO · November 2016

Those prices are stupid anyway. It has never been easier to get them than it is now.
They drop far more often from the new writs than the old and you can find ore everywhere now.

In the past 5 days I have gotten 21 tempering alloys from my writs and refining. And I have had a really bad drop rate from the refining (1 in 300 ores).

CromulentForumID · November 2016

BigES wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Nothing prevents you from farming your own tempers.
It's not like any player has a monopoly on them.

Clearly you've never attempted to farm dreugh wax in an area dominated by macro-enabled Chinese robot pet sorcs.

I agree. The only place you can farm this stuff is in those couple of places with the most mobs that everybody knows about. You couldn't possibly accept a bit less efficiency to avoid those farmers.

BigES · November 2016

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Nothing prevents you from farming your own tempers.
It's not like any player has a monopoly on them.

Clearly you've never attempted to farm dreugh wax in an area dominated by macro-enabled Chinese robot pet sorcs.

Oddly enough, no. Doesn't prevent me from having over 150+ of them Dreugh Waxes in my crafting bag, all my gear golden, helped most of my guildies with goldening their stuff, all while selling tons of them and never buying one.
Which in turns means that I have done a lot of crafting writs and also farmed and refined a lot of raw mats without ever meeting any of those "robots". They simply aren't there. And if they are, just go farm somewhere else. Don't tell me they're everywhere, because they're not.

Prices are high because people are ready to pay that much. The answer to (too) high prices is either to lower the demand or to raise the supply, both of which you can contribute to by farming your own materials.

This comes down to a concern on game balance. Can I spend time farming, shopping - etc. and attempt to gold and finalize all my gear? Yes. Absolutely. I play this game more than enough. But the opportunity cost is that I don't get to do something else productive (or fun). Like - play the game. PvP. Do a dungeon. A trial. Do something that makes me interact with other players and keep the game community healthy.

This game is suffering from a grindy, RNG loot imbalance that is consuming too many people's time and turning them off to the game.

pattyLtd · November 2016

WTB chinese farming robot!

anitajoneb17_ESO · November 2016

BigES wrote: »

Stopnaggin wrote: »

You just need to learn how to get better prices. I bought 3 tempers yesterday 10k ea. Never go to guild traders for stuff like that. Prime example is the Psijic ambrosia frags. 120-10k on traders. I get mine under 50k ea. Learn how to work the market. Alot of low level players will sell low to get gold for something, I was buying frags over the weekend and a guy offered them to me @ 4k ea. I still gave him fair market value but there are people that either don't care or don't know.

I'm aware you can find unsuspecting players who don't know what they have or the value of it. But I'm talking about the 90% market value, not the exception. I'm talking about the community price. If we all "looked for a deal" as you suggested, it wouldn't be a deal anymore, would it?

Exactly. If everyone or at least many people made the effort to look for deals (instead of complaining about prices but buying anyway) high priced goods would not sell and prices would drop for everybody.

Remember : everytime you buy something at a certain price, it means you agree on that price, because you have the choice to NOT BUY. In ESO there's nothing you cannot farm by yourself and thus obtain without gold (unlike RL where you have no choice but to buy some basic stuff regardless of price).

Stopnaggin · November 2016

BigES wrote: »

Stopnaggin wrote: »

You just need to learn how to get better prices. I bought 3 tempers yesterday 10k ea. Never go to guild traders for stuff like that. Prime example is the Psijic ambrosia frags. 120-10k on traders. I get mine under 50k ea. Learn how to work the market. Alot of low level players will sell low to get gold for something, I was buying frags over the weekend and a guy offered them to me @ 4k ea. I still gave him fair market value but there are people that either don't care or don't know.

I'm aware you can find unsuspecting players who don't know what they have or the value of it. But I'm talking about the 90% market value, not the exception. I'm talking about the community price. If we all "looked for a deal" as you suggested, it wouldn't be a deal anymore, would it?

I hardly ever pay outrageous prices or market value. My point was that you have options. A ceiling, IMHO will hurt the economy even further. The demand for items is what drives up the market, not the seller. If we all looked for a deal market prices would drop, we'll you know because nobody is buying at those prices. The only reason they sell high is because people will pay those prices.

And in all reality you only need gold tempers for weapons as the difference between purple and gold isn't high enough for me personally to Warrent paying that much. If you're one of those who has to have bis all gold then you'll pay.

idk · November 2016

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Nothing prevents you from farming your own tempers.
It's not like any player has a monopoly on them.

^^^
This, and gold gear isn't required for armor though weapons benefit much more when upgraded to gold.

BigES · November 2016

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

Stopnaggin wrote: »

You just need to learn how to get better prices. I bought 3 tempers yesterday 10k ea. Never go to guild traders for stuff like that. Prime example is the Psijic ambrosia frags. 120-10k on traders. I get mine under 50k ea. Learn how to work the market. Alot of low level players will sell low to get gold for something, I was buying frags over the weekend and a guy offered them to me @ 4k ea. I still gave him fair market value but there are people that either don't care or don't know.

I'm aware you can find unsuspecting players who don't know what they have or the value of it. But I'm talking about the 90% market value, not the exception. I'm talking about the community price. If we all "looked for a deal" as you suggested, it wouldn't be a deal anymore, would it?

Exactly. If everyone or at least many people made the effort to look for deals (instead of complaining about prices but buying anyway) high priced goods would not sell and prices would drop for everybody.

Remember : everytime you buy something at a certain price, it means you agree on that price, because you have the choice to NOT BUY. In ESO there's nothing you cannot farm by yourself and thus obtain without gold (unlike RL where you have no choice but to buy some basic stuff regardless of price).

Again, this is not specifically about cost. Its also about time. Time is money.

Stopnaggin · November 2016

It's not like it takes too much time to find deals. Zone chat "ltb tempers x gold ea" done. Some people will lol and make snark remarks, who cares, more than likely someone will whisper ready to sell at said price.

AzuraKin · November 2016

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Nothing prevents you from farming your own tempers.
It's not like any player has a monopoly on them.

Clearly you've never attempted to farm dreugh wax in an area dominated by macro-enabled Chinese robot pet sorcs.

Oddly enough, no. Doesn't prevent me from having over 150+ of them Dreugh Waxes in my crafting bag, all my gear golden, helped most of my guildies with goldening their stuff, all while selling tons of them and never buying one.
Which in turns means that I have done a lot of crafting writs and also farmed and refined a lot of raw mats without ever meeting any of those "robots". They simply aren't there. And if they are, just go farm somewhere else. Don't tell me they're everywhere, because they're not.

Prices are high because people are ready to pay that much. The answer to (too) high prices is either to lower the demand or to raise the supply, both of which you can contribute to by farming your own materials.

must spend all your time just grinding for the raw mats (average gold upgrade mat from refining is ~.2-.5%

BigES · November 2016

Stopnaggin wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

Stopnaggin wrote: »

You just need to learn how to get better prices. I bought 3 tempers yesterday 10k ea. Never go to guild traders for stuff like that. Prime example is the Psijic ambrosia frags. 120-10k on traders. I get mine under 50k ea. Learn how to work the market. Alot of low level players will sell low to get gold for something, I was buying frags over the weekend and a guy offered them to me @ 4k ea. I still gave him fair market value but there are people that either don't care or don't know.

I'm aware you can find unsuspecting players who don't know what they have or the value of it. But I'm talking about the 90% market value, not the exception. I'm talking about the community price. If we all "looked for a deal" as you suggested, it wouldn't be a deal anymore, would it?

I hardly ever pay outrageous prices or market value. My point was that you have options. A ceiling, IMHO will hurt the economy even further. The demand for items is what drives up the market, not the seller. If we all looked for a deal market prices would drop, we'll you know because nobody is buying at those prices. The only reason they sell high is because people will pay those prices.

And in all reality you only need gold tempers for weapons as the difference between purple and gold isn't high enough for me personally to Warrent paying that much. If you're one of those who has to have bis all gold then you'll pay.

Actually supply is just as important as demand. So if a few wealthy individuals decided to buy up most of the supply, you have higher prices. This has happened before, and is happening currently. Additionally, people with copious amounts of gold aren't incentivized to sell. They hoard gold materials, because the gold serves no purpose after a certain point.

Again, this comes down to game imbalance and time invested to obtain gold materials - whether through smart shopping or farming yourself - is highly disproportionate compared to the "real" game time you spend actually playing the game and using the items. And a price celling is a simple check on this.

lolo_01b16_ESO · November 2016

dsalter wrote: »

problem is theres to much gold in the system that means many people like myself have ample amounts which in turn leads to price hikes because they know they can get what they charge.
and without another gold sinking outlet that doesn't move it from 1 player to another it will only keep rising.

This is the real issue. There are too many people who can afford those prices, because there is no real gold sink in this game.
If you put limits on prices for certain items, it will just result in other items being more expensive.
I have hope, that housing can solve this issue. If they add some kind of awesome and expensive guild hall, I'm sure prices for crafting materials will decrease.

BigES · November 2016

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

dsalter wrote: »

problem is theres to much gold in the system that means many people like myself have ample amounts which in turn leads to price hikes because they know they can get what they charge.
and without another gold sinking outlet that doesn't move it from 1 player to another it will only keep rising.

This is the real issue. There are too many people who can afford those prices, because there is no real gold sink in this game.
If you put limits on prices for certain items, it will just result in other items being more expensive.
I have hope, that housing can solve this issue. If they add some kind of awesome and expensive guild hall, I'm sure prices for crafting materials will decrease.

The gold sink IS the tempers and the wax, which is exactly why this is happening. Because what else do you buy with multi-millions other than the most desirable item? Gold is fiat money, but gold materials serve a functional purpose. They are hedge against inflated prices due to an extremely high gold supply.

Anyone play Diablo 2 and remember what happened with gold and Stone of Jordan's (SOJs)? They became the currency.

AzuraKin · November 2016

to a point yes it may hurt the economy for some players. but to be frank, 100% of the players who would be hurt by this are those that buy at say 5000 for 100 items (500k gold invested) spend 32 upgrading 4 weapons and sell the rest at 50% hike in price (7.5k). multiply this by say 100 players, everyone now sells at this price because heck price was driven up by people merchanting. a year later when those same players need to upgrade price may have dropped a bit but it will never drop to the old price. so for this scenario lets say it dropped to 6k. so they buy 100 at 6k (600k) upgrade thier 4 weapons sell the other 68 again at 50% increase in price (9000) and they will always have gold weapons, never cost themselves anything, but everyone else will pay for it especially new players.

SilentBoomstick · November 2016

IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »

Last time I checked the prices on alloys were ranging from 17k-20k. Sadly there's nothing that can be done. Just hope for gold mats to be released in the Tel Var vendors.

THAT would be really dope!

anitajoneb17_ESO · November 2016

BigES wrote: »

This comes down to a concern on game balance. Can I spend time farming, shopping - etc. and attempt to gold and finalize all my gear? Yes. Absolutely. I play this game more than enough. But the opportunity cost is that I don't get to do something else productive (or fun). Like - play the game. PvP. Do a dungeon. A trial. Do something that makes me interact with other players and keep the game community healthy.

This game is suffering from a grindy, RNG loot imbalance that is consuming too many people's time and turning them off to the game.

Just because YOU don't like farming/crafting/trading activities doesn't mean nobody likes them.
If these type of activities would be made worthless (as you suggest), I would be gone from the game (I'm done with dungeons and trials, done, redone, re-redone..., and PvP is too toxic to be fun on a regular basis ).
Market game on the other hand is always suprising and puts me in touch with a lot of people in the game that I love chatting with and getting to know.
Please don't ask for MY activity to be taken away just so you can make YOUR activity more comfortable, because no activity has "priority".

Besides, I know *many* endgame players who consider purple gear not worth their "incredible skill level", or think that it will gimp them to the ground. They feel "entitled" to have their stuff upgraded to gold immediately and are ready to spend up to their last coin on it. It's an attitude. Why shouldn't farmers/traders benefit from it ?

ZOS already went a long way to help you (at our detriment) by providing potency runes, hakeijos, alchemy materials available from NPC merchants. The drop rate of gold tempers via crafting writs also was also significantly increased. Yet you're still not happy and want more ?

Woeler · November 2016

Cather me ZOS, I don't want to spend time in your game!

SwaminoNowlino · November 2016

Remember, there is also a healthy industry of people who make money off of this system. People use bots to acquire massive amounts of gold then use said gold to buy out the bottom half of the market. You have thus artificially created more demand for gold. Then you sell the gold for real money.

Markets in the real world have regulations that prevent this. Free markets are not a natural occurrence. All markets trend towards monopolies in the absence of intervention. These regulations seek to stymie monopolies and minimize collusion. ESO has an unregulated market whereby the devs do not interfere, and thus you see the blatant collusion and exploitative monopolistic behavior. People are quick to point to demand when thinking of economics, but the simple supply vs demand model has two components. If either side is subject to manipulation then the equilibrium can be artificially manipulated.

If you put an artificial cap on prices, then you disincentive such behaviors, from the gold sellers to the bot farmers. You reduce the barriers to entry into end-game content. Not everyone who plays this game has the time to invest in hours of farming. How often would you play a game if you had to spend your two or three available hours a week farming?

The simple solution is to introduce gold mats for tel var in IC. You sell copies of your DLC, you breathe life into the content, and you give people options. Everyone wins.

Stopnaggin · November 2016

BigES wrote: »

Stopnaggin wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

Stopnaggin wrote: »

You just need to learn how to get better prices. I bought 3 tempers yesterday 10k ea. Never go to guild traders for stuff like that. Prime example is the Psijic ambrosia frags. 120-10k on traders. I get mine under 50k ea. Learn how to work the market. Alot of low level players will sell low to get gold for something, I was buying frags over the weekend and a guy offered them to me @ 4k ea. I still gave him fair market value but there are people that either don't care or don't know.

I'm aware you can find unsuspecting players who don't know what they have or the value of it. But I'm talking about the 90% market value, not the exception. I'm talking about the community price. If we all "looked for a deal" as you suggested, it wouldn't be a deal anymore, would it?

I hardly ever pay outrageous prices or market value. My point was that you have options. A ceiling, IMHO will hurt the economy even further. The demand for items is what drives up the market, not the seller. If we all looked for a deal market prices would drop, we'll you know because nobody is buying at those prices. The only reason they sell high is because people will pay those prices.

And in all reality you only need gold tempers for weapons as the difference between purple and gold isn't high enough for me personally to Warrent paying that much. If you're one of those who has to have bis all gold then you'll pay.

Actually supply is just as important as demand. So if a few wealthy individuals decided to buy up most of the supply, you have higher prices. This has happened before, and is happening currently. Additionally, people with copious amounts of gold aren't incentivized to sell. They hoard gold materials, because the gold serves no purpose after a certain point.

Again, this comes down to game imbalance and time invested to obtain gold materials - whether through smart shopping or farming yourself - is highly disproportionate compared to the "real" game time you spend actually playing the game and using the items. And a price celling is a simple check on this.

I personally haven't seen the supply dwindle. I farm most of my own, but if deal presents itself I take it. It's not like there are finite numbers of these materials.

And this may come as a shock to some people, but some people enjoy farming. To me its part of the game. So I'm not sure what you mean as far as the "real" game. I like farming as much as anything else in the game. I know not everybody likes farming, not everybody likes dungeons and trials.

Ok so let's put a ceiling on gold tempers. Now they can only sell for x amount, some people are happy, great. Now because the prices are set people will find something else to sell. So now you will farm your own stuff and lose "real " game time.

Quick question, what is fair market value of gold tempers? It may be a skewed question depending on platform as consoles don't have bots. But what is my time worth farming to get those mats? I play on console, and I've spent the hours farming to get those mats, so what should I sell them for? Or is my time not as valuable as the guy who plays the"real" game?

BigES · November 2016

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

This comes down to a concern on game balance. Can I spend time farming, shopping - etc. and attempt to gold and finalize all my gear? Yes. Absolutely. I play this game more than enough. But the opportunity cost is that I don't get to do something else productive (or fun). Like - play the game. PvP. Do a dungeon. A trial. Do something that makes me interact with other players and keep the game community healthy.

This game is suffering from a grindy, RNG loot imbalance that is consuming too many people's time and turning them off to the game.

Just because YOU don't like farming/crafting/trading activities doesn't mean nobody likes them.
If these type of activities would be made worthless (as you suggest), I would be gone from the game (I'm done with dungeons and trials, done, redone, re-redone..., and PvP is too toxic to be fun on a regular basis ).
Market game on the other hand is always suprising and puts me in touch with a lot of people in the game that I love chatting with and getting to know.
Please don't ask for MY activity to be taken away just so you can make YOUR activity more comfortable, because no activity has "priority".

Besides, I know *many* endgame players who consider purple gear not worth their "incredible skill level", or think that it will gimp them to the ground. They feel "entitled" to have their stuff upgraded to gold immediately and are ready to spend up to their last coin on it. It's an attitude. Why shouldn't farmers/traders benefit from it ?

Worthless? When did I suggest nobody likes these activities? Where are you getting this from? It doesn't have to be extremes. I'm after healthy game balance. Setting a price ceiling does not prevent farming or trading activities. It does make them less profitable, sure. So I can see why you're immediately against it. But I'm after reasonable balance, not extremes - and a price ceiling controls extreme price fluctuations. I have gold gear, but that doesn't mean I don't recognize a huge problem when I see it.

SwaminoNowlino · November 2016

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

This comes down to a concern on game balance. Can I spend time farming, shopping - etc. and attempt to gold and finalize all my gear? Yes. Absolutely. I play this game more than enough. But the opportunity cost is that I don't get to do something else productive (or fun). Like - play the game. PvP. Do a dungeon. A trial. Do something that makes me interact with other players and keep the game community healthy.

This game is suffering from a grindy, RNG loot imbalance that is consuming too many people's time and turning them off to the game.

Just because YOU don't like farming/crafting/trading activities doesn't mean nobody likes them.
If these type of activities would be made worthless (as you suggest), I would be gone from the game (I'm done with dungeons and trials, done, redone, re-redone..., and PvP is too toxic to be fun on a regular basis ).
Market game on the other hand is always suprising and puts me in touch with a lot of people in the game that I love chatting with and getting to know.
Please don't ask for MY activity to be taken away just so you can make YOUR activity more comfortable, because no activity has "priority".

Besides, I know *many* endgame players who consider purple gear not worth their "incredible skill level", or think that it will gimp them to the ground. They feel "entitled" to have their stuff upgraded to gold immediately and are ready to spend up to their last coin on it. It's an attitude. Why shouldn't farmers/traders benefit from it ?

ZOS already went a long way to help you (at our detriment) by providing potency runes, hakeijos, alchemy materials available from NPC merchants. The drop rate of gold tempers via crafting writs also was also significantly increased. Yet you're still not happy and want more ?

Your base argument is why should your desired activity be negatively impacted to benefit another's desired activity. Fair enough. But likewise why should that person's activities be throttled by your actions? If you can afford to farm and manipulate the market and find that fun, then good for you. But it shouldn't necessarily come at the expense of another. Placing an artificial price cap is THE compromise to this, i.e. a tel var merchant. You can still farm and make your money off of people who cannot afford to farm or have no desire to participate in this secondary market, while others are free to farm tel var to improve their gear. Everyone wins.