Wait, what? The crates are going in? Will they not announce the date first?

rotaugen454 wrote: »

I guess the complaint is that people with a gambling addiction will spend a lot on this. The thing is, if they really have an addiction, they will just spend that money elsewhere anyway. Now, if they ever put the Maelstrom weapons in crates, that would be a different story.

That might be part of it.

However the main concern is that content will be made for the crates, not the game. "Exclusive" mounts and more powerful potions/scrolls/food than players can make in the game. The last update put the face-saving super ambrosia potion in the game that requires finding all seven of the recipe parts again, plus more rare drops, plus perfect roe in order to make, so technically they are still on the "no lies" side of the claim that the crown store will never sell items better than the player can make. Barely.

Please note; these super rare drop items on top of needing the rare drop recipe parts isn't "better" than the super stuff in the rngesus crates. It is "similar". I think this shows they are making content for the rngesus crates already.

How far does "better than what the players can make in the game" need to go before it is over the edge of pay to win? Because they took all the criticisms and suggestions made by the player who tested the crates on the pts, and [probably thanks to the newly hired monetizer person] turned that into "similar recipe" and possible other tweaks. If the crates don't sell the way they're going to be released, that person will see to it that items like the weapons will be added to the rngesus boxes so they will sell.

EDIT: redundant redundancy deleted.

wayfarerx wrote: »

rotaugen454 wrote: »

I guess the complaint is that people with a gambling addiction will spend a lot on this. The thing is, if they really have an addiction, they will just spend that money elsewhere anyway.

By this logic I should start selling illegal drugs to addicts. They already have an addiction, so they'll just buy stuff from somewhere else if not from me. Time to make some bank now that I am free from any moral consequence!

in a few parts of the world, its not only sold, but given to addicts by government for exactly that reason, they are going to do it anyways, might as well get them to do it as safely as possible.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/crosstown-clinic-heroin-addiction-1.3779768

The harsh reality is that if someone with a gambling problem is playing this game and not seeking change, then yes that same money would have been gambled away to something else already and I dont have any sympathy. If someone is really wanting to change and working towards it then they have my sympathy, but we cannot design a game for the small percentage this would effect IMO. This is an adults game, in the adult world gambling is widely accepted.

summitxho wrote: »

wayfarerx wrote: »

rotaugen454 wrote: »

I guess the complaint is that people with a gambling addiction will spend a lot on this. The thing is, if they really have an addiction, they will just spend that money elsewhere anyway.

By this logic I should start selling illegal drugs to addicts. They already have an addiction, so they'll just buy stuff from somewhere else if not from me. Time to make some bank now that I am free from any moral consequence!

in a few parts of the world, its not only sold, but given to addicts by government for exactly that reason, they are going to do it anyways, might as well get them to do it as safely as possible.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/crosstown-clinic-heroin-addiction-1.3779768

I was not referring to the moral / ethical ramifications of treating drug addicts by providing them with low-cost/free, clean drugs. There are many ways to treat addiction and we as a society are still grappling with the most effective and compassionate ways of doing so.

My comment was an attempt to point out that ZOS enriching themselves at the expense of those of us with debilitating personality disorders is no less repulsive than street pushers who do the same.

summitxho wrote: »

The harsh reality is that if someone with a gambling problem is playing this game and not seeking change, then yes that same money would have been gambled away to something else already and I dont have any sympathy. If someone is really wanting to change and working towards it then they have my sympathy, but we cannot design a game for the small percentage this would effect IMO. This is an adults game, in the adult world gambling is widely accepted.

A few points:

• Your lack of sympathy for people who struggle with problems you are thankfully without does not make the exploitation of those people any less disgusting. I'm happy for you that gambling addiction or other compulsive behaviors are not something that people close to you have struggled with, that must be nice.
• This is not a game design issue, crown crates are almost entirely divorced from the actual game. This is a ploy by ZOS to exploit information asymmetry between them and their customers for the purpose of enticing people to spend more than they otherwise would.
• Gambling is wildly accepted, this is true. I even enjoy gambling personally. However there is a big difference between what we know as gambling and what we've seen of the crown crates. When I step up to a blackjack table I know the odds. The rules of the game are clearly stated up front, there is no information asymmetry. This is not the situation with what we've seen of the crown crates, they are intentionally opaque and deceptive. This makes them less of a "gambling" service and more of a "scam."

summitxho wrote: »

wayfarerx wrote: »

rotaugen454 wrote: »

I guess the complaint is that people with a gambling addiction will spend a lot on this. The thing is, if they really have an addiction, they will just spend that money elsewhere anyway.

By this logic I should start selling illegal drugs to addicts. They already have an addiction, so they'll just buy stuff from somewhere else if not from me. Time to make some bank now that I am free from any moral consequence!

in a few parts of the world, its not only sold, but given to addicts by government for exactly that reason, they are going to do it anyways, might as well get them to do it as safely as possible.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/crosstown-clinic-heroin-addiction-1.3779768

The harsh reality is that if someone with a gambling problem is playing this game and not seeking change, then yes that same money would have been gambled away to something else already and I dont have any sympathy. If someone is really wanting to change and working towards it then they have my sympathy, but we cannot design a game for the small percentage this would effect IMO. This is an adults game, in the adult world gambling is widely accepted.

Yup, look at England, look at what Portugal has done... Fixed a lot of problems to. Although I don't agree with your summation.

There might have been ways they could have implemented this even I may have been okay with. If there was some kind of guarantee of gem return that allowed people to get the items they want without spending a fortune, that might be okay. The 2 items I would want are a hairstyle and body markings. If sold on store it would likely cost around $10. If I could get it for sure by spending $30 I might consider it. ZOS didn't even try. You have to hope your not getting the crap you never wanted in the first place and the gem return for the items are low.

Still I would be worried about content release. This has been a problem in games I played that went a similar route.

JimT722 wrote: »

There might have been ways they could have implemented this even I may have been okay with. If there was some kind of guarantee of gem return that allowed people to get the items they want without spending a fortune, that might be okay. The 2 items I would want are a hairstyle and body markings. If sold on store it would likely cost around $10. If I could get it for sure by spending $30 I might consider it. ZOS didn't even try. You have to hope your not getting the crap you never wanted in the first place and the gem return for the items are low.

Still I would be worried about content release. This has been a problem in games I played that went a similar route.

If there were no exclusives at all (or at least only the "themed" collectibles were exclusive) and the gem return was better, the Crates most likely wouldn't be nearly as lucrative because people would "need" a smaller number of boxes to get what they want. I imagine that, if they were less lucrative, the chances of them becoming the main source of income would be lower. I would certainly have bigger hopes for a F2P transition not happening so soon if that was the case.

wayfarerx wrote: »

summitxho wrote: »

wayfarerx wrote: »

rotaugen454 wrote: »

I guess the complaint is that people with a gambling addiction will spend a lot on this. The thing is, if they really have an addiction, they will just spend that money elsewhere anyway.

By this logic I should start selling illegal drugs to addicts. They already have an addiction, so they'll just buy stuff from somewhere else if not from me. Time to make some bank now that I am free from any moral consequence!

in a few parts of the world, its not only sold, but given to addicts by government for exactly that reason, they are going to do it anyways, might as well get them to do it as safely as possible.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/crosstown-clinic-heroin-addiction-1.3779768

I was not referring to the moral / ethical ramifications of treating drug addicts by providing them with low-cost/free, clean drugs. There are many ways to treat addiction and we as a society are still grappling with the most effective and compassionate ways of doing so.

My comment was an attempt to point out that ZOS enriching themselves at the expense of those of us with debilitating personality disorders is no less repulsive than street pushers who do the same.

summitxho wrote: »

The harsh reality is that if someone with a gambling problem is playing this game and not seeking change, then yes that same money would have been gambled away to something else already and I dont have any sympathy. If someone is really wanting to change and working towards it then they have my sympathy, but we cannot design a game for the small percentage this would effect IMO. This is an adults game, in the adult world gambling is widely accepted.

A few points:

• Your lack of sympathy for people who struggle with problems you are thankfully without does not make the exploitation of those people any less disgusting. I'm happy for you that gambling addiction or other compulsive behaviors are not something that people close to you have struggled with, that must be nice.
• This is not a game design issue, crown crates are almost entirely divorced from the actual game. This is a ploy by ZOS to exploit information asymmetry between them and their customers for the purpose of enticing people to spend more than they otherwise would.
• Gambling is wildly accepted, this is true. I even enjoy gambling personally. However there is a big difference between what we know as gambling and what we've seen of the crown crates. When I step up to a blackjack table I know the odds. The rules of the game are clearly stated up front, there is no information asymmetry. This is not the situation with what we've seen of the crown crates, they are intentionally opaque and deceptive. This makes them less of a "gambling" service and more of a "scam."

Its life, time to get over it, we see food being pushed on obese people, we see gambling being pushed on gambling addicts, we see cigarettes pushed on smokers, in all walks of life we see it, seeing it in a game is the least of society problems. The moment we stop giving the rights to choose to the majority because of the minority is the moment we lose freedom of choice. Time to grow up, put our big boy pants on and take responsibility for our own actions while us as a society supports it the best we can, taking things away is not the answer. The sooner we all learn to do this, the better off everyone will be.

Blah blah blah crown crates, yeah I get your point, just I do not agree with it. I would not spend a cent on in game items, that will not change with crown crates, only thing I will ever spend money on in game is that which makes my game time more enjoyable, that choice on what that is, is up to the user and should remain that way.

What are the odds of a slot machine? From my understanding it can vary depends on the machine settings, also from my understanding its the most popular form of gambling in Vegas.

Regardless, I cannot get sucked into another crown crates debate, its just ridiculous, time to call the whambulance.

summitxho wrote: »

wayfarerx wrote: »

summitxho wrote: »

wayfarerx wrote: »

rotaugen454 wrote: »

I guess the complaint is that people with a gambling addiction will spend a lot on this. The thing is, if they really have an addiction, they will just spend that money elsewhere anyway.

By this logic I should start selling illegal drugs to addicts. They already have an addiction, so they'll just buy stuff from somewhere else if not from me. Time to make some bank now that I am free from any moral consequence!

in a few parts of the world, its not only sold, but given to addicts by government for exactly that reason, they are going to do it anyways, might as well get them to do it as safely as possible.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/crosstown-clinic-heroin-addiction-1.3779768

I was not referring to the moral / ethical ramifications of treating drug addicts by providing them with low-cost/free, clean drugs. There are many ways to treat addiction and we as a society are still grappling with the most effective and compassionate ways of doing so.

My comment was an attempt to point out that ZOS enriching themselves at the expense of those of us with debilitating personality disorders is no less repulsive than street pushers who do the same.

summitxho wrote: »

The harsh reality is that if someone with a gambling problem is playing this game and not seeking change, then yes that same money would have been gambled away to something else already and I dont have any sympathy. If someone is really wanting to change and working towards it then they have my sympathy, but we cannot design a game for the small percentage this would effect IMO. This is an adults game, in the adult world gambling is widely accepted.

A few points:

• Your lack of sympathy for people who struggle with problems you are thankfully without does not make the exploitation of those people any less disgusting. I'm happy for you that gambling addiction or other compulsive behaviors are not something that people close to you have struggled with, that must be nice.
• This is not a game design issue, crown crates are almost entirely divorced from the actual game. This is a ploy by ZOS to exploit information asymmetry between them and their customers for the purpose of enticing people to spend more than they otherwise would.
• Gambling is wildly accepted, this is true. I even enjoy gambling personally. However there is a big difference between what we know as gambling and what we've seen of the crown crates. When I step up to a blackjack table I know the odds. The rules of the game are clearly stated up front, there is no information asymmetry. This is not the situation with what we've seen of the crown crates, they are intentionally opaque and deceptive. This makes them less of a "gambling" service and more of a "scam."

Its life, time to get over it, we see food being pushed on obese people, we see gambling being pushed on gambling addicts, we see cigarettes pushed on smokers, in all walks of life we see it, seeing it in a game is the least of society problems. The moment we stop giving the rights to choose to the majority because of the minority is the moment we lose freedom of choice. Time to grow up, put our big boy pants on and take responsibility for our own actions while us as a society supports it the best we can, taking things away is not the answer. The sooner we all learn to do this, the better off everyone will be.

Ah yes, there are other bad things in the world and this bad thing is not as bad so there is no reason to speak out against it. All humans should be robots and always make the correct decision and compassion for those who cannot be perfect all the time is a waste. Neat.

summitxho wrote: »

Blah blah blah crown crates, yeah I get your point, just I do not agree with it. I would not spend a cent on in game items, that will not change with crown crates, only thing I will ever spend money on in game is that which makes my game time more enjoyable, that choice on what that is, is up to the user and should remain that way.

Here we have the "I'll be fine what's wrong with everyone else?" argument, always a classic.

summitxho wrote: »

What are the odds of a slot machine? From my understanding it can vary depends on the machine settings, also from my understanding its the most popular form of gambling in Vegas.

Slot machine odds can vary by jurisdiction and machine but must meet baseline standards set by state gaming boards (at least in the US).

summitxho wrote: »

Regardless, I cannot get sucked into another crown crates debate, its just ridiculous, time to call the whambulance.

If you don't want to get sucked into a crown crate debate then why are you posting comments in a crown crate debate? Almost seems like you might not have the iron-clad, robotic impulse control that you assume all other humans should have. Very interesting!

I'm hoping that they just lower the crown price for some of the items.. or at least give a discount if you are a ESO member. $20+ dollars for some of the items is crazy!

We can talk about how we feel about the crown crates until we are blue in the face. That was made apparent a long time ago. If they were honestly interested in our feed back, that would have been made apparent. That did not happen. So, I take that as they are coming, they will be perhaps SLIGHTLY less horrific as they were on the PTS and they will call that a win. Apparently plenty of people will spend money on them, so they will be considered as being a pretty great idea. Or they will spin it that way anyways. When they completely ignore a topic, there is a reason. And it isn't because they are listening.

I'm not buying any. I can live without the one mount I wanted that looks like it will be a crown crate exclusive.

Cazzy wrote: »

summitxho wrote: »

wayfarerx wrote: »

rotaugen454 wrote: »

I guess the complaint is that people with a gambling addiction will spend a lot on this. The thing is, if they really have an addiction, they will just spend that money elsewhere anyway.

By this logic I should start selling illegal drugs to addicts. They already have an addiction, so they'll just buy stuff from somewhere else if not from me. Time to make some bank now that I am free from any moral consequence!

in a few parts of the world, its not only sold, but given to addicts by government for exactly that reason, they are going to do it anyways, might as well get them to do it as safely as possible.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/crosstown-clinic-heroin-addiction-1.3779768

The harsh reality is that if someone with a gambling problem is playing this game and not seeking change, then yes that same money would have been gambled away to something else already and I dont have any sympathy. If someone is really wanting to change and working towards it then they have my sympathy, but we cannot design a game for the small percentage this would effect IMO. This is an adults game, in the adult world gambling is widely accepted.

I'm seeing a psychiatrist but already been told it will take a couple of years before I see change. I'm 30 years old and my issues stem from when I was 5. I've only just been offered help. People who want help and beg for it don't always get it.

ESO has/was an extremely beneficial relaxation and escape. Something I could immerse myself in, enjoy the game, the PVP and especially the RP. Now I can't enjoy it. A lot of my enjoyment came from shopping in the store, playing dress up and being a strong shield maiden in a world gone mad. I shouldn't have to gamble to get something I previously could have bought.

Also my gambling addiction has been bad lately so I don't even know if I can allow myself to play anymore.

Edit: Also, ask yourself, who does it harm to NOT add them?

It harms us because it means more over priced crown store items to jerk the lights on at ZOS HQ. And crown crates are not gambling. It's the same as buying a pack of baseball cards.

chloethefoxxub17_ESO wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

The whole gambling box fiasco has really got me bummed out. When all the big-name players and community members are not only unenthusiastic about it, but downright openly opposed to it, you know you messed up.

Haven't yet found any serious endgamers that actually give a crap..

Cause its only their opinions that matter......

ManwithBeard9 wrote: »

Cazzy wrote: »

summitxho wrote: »

wayfarerx wrote: »

rotaugen454 wrote: »

I guess the complaint is that people with a gambling addiction will spend a lot on this. The thing is, if they really have an addiction, they will just spend that money elsewhere anyway.

By this logic I should start selling illegal drugs to addicts. They already have an addiction, so they'll just buy stuff from somewhere else if not from me. Time to make some bank now that I am free from any moral consequence!

in a few parts of the world, its not only sold, but given to addicts by government for exactly that reason, they are going to do it anyways, might as well get them to do it as safely as possible.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/crosstown-clinic-heroin-addiction-1.3779768

The harsh reality is that if someone with a gambling problem is playing this game and not seeking change, then yes that same money would have been gambled away to something else already and I dont have any sympathy. If someone is really wanting to change and working towards it then they have my sympathy, but we cannot design a game for the small percentage this would effect IMO. This is an adults game, in the adult world gambling is widely accepted.

I'm seeing a psychiatrist but already been told it will take a couple of years before I see change. I'm 30 years old and my issues stem from when I was 5. I've only just been offered help. People who want help and beg for it don't always get it.

ESO has/was an extremely beneficial relaxation and escape. Something I could immerse myself in, enjoy the game, the PVP and especially the RP. Now I can't enjoy it. A lot of my enjoyment came from shopping in the store, playing dress up and being a strong shield maiden in a world gone mad. I shouldn't have to gamble to get something I previously could have bought.

Also my gambling addiction has been bad lately so I don't even know if I can allow myself to play anymore.

Edit: Also, ask yourself, who does it harm to NOT add them?

It harms us because it means more over priced crown store items to jerk the lights on at ZOS HQ. And crown crates are not gambling. It's the same as buying a pack of baseball cards.

You are terrible at math arent you? I mean the writing is on the wall. Go watch MissBizz vids to see your odds of winning anythign worthwhile. The amount of pretend money she spent over the course of a week to get a look into the odds. Hundreds of dollars. Just to see if she could get a single Apex Mount. But sure...Its the items that are regularly put in the Crown Store that would be overpriced. Not the gamble box that will require you to throw away entire pay checks to obtain a Mount that would of otherwise gone for 20 bucks.

runagate wrote: »

In fairness I was entirely speculating that the store maintenance would herald the arrival of scam crates and did not mean to summon up this particular argument again.

Hopefully the Crown Crates will be put on the backburner like PvP Justice and Spellcrafting until it quietly dies in the deepest, darkest hole at ZOS HQ