Offer more incentive to actually play the map

Manoekin · November 2016

Kryptonite_Kent wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

Kryptonite_Kent wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

Kryptonite_Kent wrote: »

Let me make an analogy to help explain lol...

1. Theres a rock on the ground with 50 cents under it if you go pick it up
2. Theres a rock on the ground with 500 bucks under it if you go pick it up, but you have to kick some dudes arse to do it

I'm saying the #2 system would be a great incentive to get more map play and less camping, which means more pvp, which is what we all want.

We already have #2 though, and that is what everyone is trying to tell you.

You get AP for killing the players at the keep, and you get bonus AP for taking/defending the keep based on how much AP the players you killed were worth. I'm struggling to figure why that isn't exactly what you are asking for.

If you're not satisfied with how much AP you get from taking the keeps you are taking, then go take a keep that has more defenders.

You're still not getting the point... you're NOT getting anything for taking a keep, you're geting that AP from kills while at a keep, the reward for actually taking the keep is still basically < 1 wall repair kit worth of AP, which doesn't provide any incentive to play the map when you could just simply go camp somewhere and achieve the same amount or more AP for doing nothing to help the campaign or the map.

You keep implying that I am complaining about not getting AP, I'm not, I'm in 1st place in my campaign, I'm saying the map is generally dead because its more AP to go do something like camp a route between keeps, camp a resource, camp outside a keep than to actually play the map because theres no incentive and generally less reward to do so.

One would have to assume that in order to take a defended keep one would have to kill some players along the way. That both directly and indirectly (double bonus) affects how much AP you get should you successfully take that keep. So really, you do get something for taking a keep, and unless it was undefended you get more for taking it than repairing a wall. This is where you are having trouble explaining yourself. When you tell people that you get more AP for repairing a wall than taking a keep because you only get 100ap for taking a keep... for some unknown reason people assume you mean taking an undefended keep, because that math only ever works out when you take an undefended keep.

So, if we know - not assume - know that what you are asking for is for the base amount of AP for taking a keep to be worth more, then yes you are asking for taking undefended keeps to be worth more. You cannot simply state you are not asking for this, because a system already exists that makes taking and defending keep profitable AP-wise should there be any defenders/attackers. Thus, if you are not asking for a base increase, but an increase based on the amount of defenders/attackers I would say you are asking for something that already exists and is used to gain large amounts of AP. I suppose the only other option we have here would be to assume you have no knowledge of how such PvP mechanics work, but I don't think that's the case.

I mean holy *** this cannot be that *** hard. Let me quote your own damn example for you, AGAIN.

2. Theres a rock on the ground with 500 bucks under it if you go pick it up, but you have to kick some dudes arse to do it

That is quite literally an explanation of how taking a defended keep works at this very moment. If you are NOT talking about that, then first off I don't know why you gave that explanation, but secondly the only other option there is is for you to be talking about undefended keeps. I really hope explaining this three different ways to you gets through, but it may just not be enough.

Well to be fair, yes you indirectly get AP from being involved in defense/offense of a keep... lets take AP out of the equation to maybe make my point a bit clearer since that's what we're all stuck on here... there is no actual incentive or reward for taking a keep, the rewards you get are all based on kills, but the system of the campaign is based on the objective of taking keeps/resources. I'm looking for a way to incentivize people to actually do the objectives other than to zerg the map for emp, which is really the only reward for doing the objectives, but back to AP since that's the only thing people seem to care about lol so that's why I mentioned maybe having a large purse of AP SEPERATE from the standard AP from kills, that you can get anywhere on the map, attached to a castle BUT only if there was active combat at said castle. To further that, if you successfully defend the castle you get the purse and it resets.... yes you ALREADY get defense AP, but those again are from kills, not from the objective itself.

So what I'm saying is... lets say each keep has 10K alliance points attached to it per battle, A LOT more people are going to be fighting over objectives rather than camping if they know theres a guaranteed reward versus "oh a keep is flagged by 1 siege, probably not worth going there for 1 guy because its only a few AP" as it would now be "holy shite, a keep is flagged, lemme get in on that for that 10K" lol

I understand what you're saying a little better now. However, something like this is not possible imo. If it could even be added into the game correctly it would be exploited on a quiet campaign as well as emperor farms were exploited back in the day. It does not take much to flip a keep, and certainly is easy enough to stack battles on one. There's suggestions out there that could maybe be more possible though.

Kryptonite_Kent · November 2016

Manoekin wrote: »

Kryptonite_Kent wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

Kryptonite_Kent wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

Kryptonite_Kent wrote: »

Let me make an analogy to help explain lol...

1. Theres a rock on the ground with 50 cents under it if you go pick it up
2. Theres a rock on the ground with 500 bucks under it if you go pick it up, but you have to kick some dudes arse to do it

I'm saying the #2 system would be a great incentive to get more map play and less camping, which means more pvp, which is what we all want.

We already have #2 though, and that is what everyone is trying to tell you.

You get AP for killing the players at the keep, and you get bonus AP for taking/defending the keep based on how much AP the players you killed were worth. I'm struggling to figure why that isn't exactly what you are asking for.

If you're not satisfied with how much AP you get from taking the keeps you are taking, then go take a keep that has more defenders.

You're still not getting the point... you're NOT getting anything for taking a keep, you're geting that AP from kills while at a keep, the reward for actually taking the keep is still basically < 1 wall repair kit worth of AP, which doesn't provide any incentive to play the map when you could just simply go camp somewhere and achieve the same amount or more AP for doing nothing to help the campaign or the map.

You keep implying that I am complaining about not getting AP, I'm not, I'm in 1st place in my campaign, I'm saying the map is generally dead because its more AP to go do something like camp a route between keeps, camp a resource, camp outside a keep than to actually play the map because theres no incentive and generally less reward to do so.

One would have to assume that in order to take a defended keep one would have to kill some players along the way. That both directly and indirectly (double bonus) affects how much AP you get should you successfully take that keep. So really, you do get something for taking a keep, and unless it was undefended you get more for taking it than repairing a wall. This is where you are having trouble explaining yourself. When you tell people that you get more AP for repairing a wall than taking a keep because you only get 100ap for taking a keep... for some unknown reason people assume you mean taking an undefended keep, because that math only ever works out when you take an undefended keep.

So, if we know - not assume - know that what you are asking for is for the base amount of AP for taking a keep to be worth more, then yes you are asking for taking undefended keeps to be worth more. You cannot simply state you are not asking for this, because a system already exists that makes taking and defending keep profitable AP-wise should there be any defenders/attackers. Thus, if you are not asking for a base increase, but an increase based on the amount of defenders/attackers I would say you are asking for something that already exists and is used to gain large amounts of AP. I suppose the only other option we have here would be to assume you have no knowledge of how such PvP mechanics work, but I don't think that's the case.

I mean holy *** this cannot be that *** hard. Let me quote your own damn example for you, AGAIN.

2. Theres a rock on the ground with 500 bucks under it if you go pick it up, but you have to kick some dudes arse to do it

That is quite literally an explanation of how taking a defended keep works at this very moment. If you are NOT talking about that, then first off I don't know why you gave that explanation, but secondly the only other option there is is for you to be talking about undefended keeps. I really hope explaining this three different ways to you gets through, but it may just not be enough.

Well to be fair, yes you indirectly get AP from being involved in defense/offense of a keep... lets take AP out of the equation to maybe make my point a bit clearer since that's what we're all stuck on here... there is no actual incentive or reward for taking a keep, the rewards you get are all based on kills, but the system of the campaign is based on the objective of taking keeps/resources. I'm looking for a way to incentivize people to actually do the objectives other than to zerg the map for emp, which is really the only reward for doing the objectives, but back to AP since that's the only thing people seem to care about lol so that's why I mentioned maybe having a large purse of AP SEPERATE from the standard AP from kills, that you can get anywhere on the map, attached to a castle BUT only if there was active combat at said castle. To further that, if you successfully defend the castle you get the purse and it resets.... yes you ALREADY get defense AP, but those again are from kills, not from the objective itself.

So what I'm saying is... lets say each keep has 10K alliance points attached to it per battle, A LOT more people are going to be fighting over objectives rather than camping if they know theres a guaranteed reward versus "oh a keep is flagged by 1 siege, probably not worth going there for 1 guy because its only a few AP" as it would now be "holy shite, a keep is flagged, lemme get in on that for that 10K" lol

I understand what you're saying a little better now. However, something like this is not possible imo. If it could even be added into the game correctly it would be exploited on a quiet campaign as well as emperor farms were exploited back in the day. It does not take much to flip a keep, and certainly is easy enough to stack battles on one. There's suggestions out there that could maybe be more possible though.

Yeah, I mean the AP purse is just a thought, it could be another form of reward though... but most people seem to only care about AP lol, which is why its exploited as much as it is by "friendly" tower farms and such for emp, so yeah what I mean isn't necessarily more AP, but rather a reward for playing the objectives so we have more actual battles instead of farmers.

Ackwalan · November 2016

Kryptonite_Kent wrote: »

Ackwalan wrote: »

Kryptonite_Kent wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

Kryptonite_Kent wrote: »

Let me make an analogy to help explain lol...

1. Theres a rock on the ground with 50 cents under it if you go pick it up
2. Theres a rock on the ground with 500 bucks under it if you go pick it up, but you have to kick some dudes arse to do it

I'm saying the #2 system would be a great incentive to get more map play and less camping, which means more pvp, which is what we all want.

We already have #2 though, and that is what everyone is trying to tell you.

You get AP for killing the players at the keep, and you get bonus AP for taking/defending the keep based on how much AP the players you killed were worth. I'm struggling to figure why that isn't exactly what you are asking for.

If you're not satisfied with how much AP you get from taking the keeps you are taking, then go take a keep that has more defenders.

You're still not getting the point... you're NOT getting anything for taking a keep, you're geting that AP from kills while at a keep, the reward for actually taking the keep is still basically < 1 wall repair kit worth of AP, which doesn't provide any incentive to play the map when you could just simply go camp somewhere and achieve the same amount or more AP for doing nothing to help the campaign or the map.

You keep implying that I am complaining about not getting AP, I'm not, I'm in 1st place in my campaign, I'm saying the map is generally dead because its more AP to go do something like camp a route between keeps, camp a resource, camp outside a keep than to actually play the map because theres no incentive and generally less reward to do so.

It's you that isn't getting it. Taking an undefended Keep or Resource earns a flat amount pf AP. If that Keep or resource is defended, you get AP for taking, AP for defeating the defenders and a bonus AP award.

You DONT get extra rewards for a defended keep though... if there are 30 defenders but you kill 0 of them and still take the keep, you get the same reward you would for an undefended keep... thus you ARE NOT getting rewarded for taking a keep period, all the AP gains are solely from kills, defense ticks are also from kills, NOT from defense... if you kill 0 people but the keep unflags you get nada.

I don't see whats so difficult to comprehend about what I'm saying... you can get kills anywhere and get the same AP gains or more, so there is no reason to play the map objectively other than getting D ticks which again are ONLY from kills and can be acquired from resources easier than a keep, forget about AP all together just substitute ANY reward for playing the map objectively is my point, I just used AP as the reward but it could be anything.

No point in even reading anymore of your posts.

Kryptonite_Kent · November 2016

Ackwalan wrote: »

Kryptonite_Kent wrote: »

Ackwalan wrote: »

Kryptonite_Kent wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

Kryptonite_Kent wrote: »

Let me make an analogy to help explain lol...

1. Theres a rock on the ground with 50 cents under it if you go pick it up
2. Theres a rock on the ground with 500 bucks under it if you go pick it up, but you have to kick some dudes arse to do it

I'm saying the #2 system would be a great incentive to get more map play and less camping, which means more pvp, which is what we all want.

We already have #2 though, and that is what everyone is trying to tell you.

You get AP for killing the players at the keep, and you get bonus AP for taking/defending the keep based on how much AP the players you killed were worth. I'm struggling to figure why that isn't exactly what you are asking for.

If you're not satisfied with how much AP you get from taking the keeps you are taking, then go take a keep that has more defenders.

You're still not getting the point... you're NOT getting anything for taking a keep, you're geting that AP from kills while at a keep, the reward for actually taking the keep is still basically < 1 wall repair kit worth of AP, which doesn't provide any incentive to play the map when you could just simply go camp somewhere and achieve the same amount or more AP for doing nothing to help the campaign or the map.

You keep implying that I am complaining about not getting AP, I'm not, I'm in 1st place in my campaign, I'm saying the map is generally dead because its more AP to go do something like camp a route between keeps, camp a resource, camp outside a keep than to actually play the map because theres no incentive and generally less reward to do so.

It's you that isn't getting it. Taking an undefended Keep or Resource earns a flat amount pf AP. If that Keep or resource is defended, you get AP for taking, AP for defeating the defenders and a bonus AP award.

You DONT get extra rewards for a defended keep though... if there are 30 defenders but you kill 0 of them and still take the keep, you get the same reward you would for an undefended keep... thus you ARE NOT getting rewarded for taking a keep period, all the AP gains are solely from kills, defense ticks are also from kills, NOT from defense... if you kill 0 people but the keep unflags you get nada.

I don't see whats so difficult to comprehend about what I'm saying... you can get kills anywhere and get the same AP gains or more, so there is no reason to play the map objectively other than getting D ticks which again are ONLY from kills and can be acquired from resources easier than a keep, forget about AP all together just substitute ANY reward for playing the map objectively is my point, I just used AP as the reward but it could be anything.

No point in even reading anymore of your posts.

umm ok, bye then

Curragraigue · November 2016

Kryptonite_Kent wrote: »

Ackwalan wrote: »

Kryptonite_Kent wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

Kryptonite_Kent wrote: »

Let me make an analogy to help explain lol...

1. Theres a rock on the ground with 50 cents under it if you go pick it up
2. Theres a rock on the ground with 500 bucks under it if you go pick it up, but you have to kick some dudes arse to do it

I'm saying the #2 system would be a great incentive to get more map play and less camping, which means more pvp, which is what we all want.

We already have #2 though, and that is what everyone is trying to tell you.

You get AP for killing the players at the keep, and you get bonus AP for taking/defending the keep based on how much AP the players you killed were worth. I'm struggling to figure why that isn't exactly what you are asking for.

If you're not satisfied with how much AP you get from taking the keeps you are taking, then go take a keep that has more defenders.

You're still not getting the point... you're NOT getting anything for taking a keep, you're geting that AP from kills while at a keep, the reward for actually taking the keep is still basically < 1 wall repair kit worth of AP, which doesn't provide any incentive to play the map when you could just simply go camp somewhere and achieve the same amount or more AP for doing nothing to help the campaign or the map.

You keep implying that I am complaining about not getting AP, I'm not, I'm in 1st place in my campaign, I'm saying the map is generally dead because its more AP to go do something like camp a route between keeps, camp a resource, camp outside a keep than to actually play the map because theres no incentive and generally less reward to do so.

It's you that isn't getting it. Taking an undefended Keep or Resource earns a flat amount pf AP. If that Keep or resource is defended, you get AP for taking, AP for defeating the defenders and a bonus AP award.

You DONT get extra rewards for a defended keep though... if there are 30 defenders but you kill 0 of them and still take the keep, you get the same reward you would for an undefended keep... thus you ARE NOT getting rewarded for taking a keep period, all the AP gains are solely from kills, defense ticks are also from kills, NOT from defense... if you kill 0 people but the keep unflags you get nada.

I don't see whats so difficult to comprehend about what I'm saying... you can get kills anywhere and get the same AP gains or more, so there is no reason to play the map objectively other than getting D ticks which again are ONLY from kills and can be acquired from resources easier than a keep, forget about AP all together just substitute ANY reward for playing the map objectively is my point, I just used AP as the reward but it could be anything.

You do get rewarded whether you fight or not and whether you kill or not. You haven't wondered why people park and sponge inside keeps before or why people race to get to keeps that have already been defended or about to be taken. If you are in range you get O'ticks as you go and once the keep is taken and you get D'ticks as you go and a big one at the end if for a period of time there is no more fighting.

As I said I think what you are trying to say is that the last O'tick should be bigger. As I said there are a few factors at play, more than I mentioned I'm sure, for why D'ticks are bigger than O'ticks.

Kryptonite_Kent · November 2016

Curragraigue wrote: »

Kryptonite_Kent wrote: »

Ackwalan wrote: »

Kryptonite_Kent wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

Kryptonite_Kent wrote: »

Let me make an analogy to help explain lol...

1. Theres a rock on the ground with 50 cents under it if you go pick it up
2. Theres a rock on the ground with 500 bucks under it if you go pick it up, but you have to kick some dudes arse to do it

I'm saying the #2 system would be a great incentive to get more map play and less camping, which means more pvp, which is what we all want.

We already have #2 though, and that is what everyone is trying to tell you.

You get AP for killing the players at the keep, and you get bonus AP for taking/defending the keep based on how much AP the players you killed were worth. I'm struggling to figure why that isn't exactly what you are asking for.

If you're not satisfied with how much AP you get from taking the keeps you are taking, then go take a keep that has more defenders.

You're still not getting the point... you're NOT getting anything for taking a keep, you're geting that AP from kills while at a keep, the reward for actually taking the keep is still basically < 1 wall repair kit worth of AP, which doesn't provide any incentive to play the map when you could just simply go camp somewhere and achieve the same amount or more AP for doing nothing to help the campaign or the map.

You keep implying that I am complaining about not getting AP, I'm not, I'm in 1st place in my campaign, I'm saying the map is generally dead because its more AP to go do something like camp a route between keeps, camp a resource, camp outside a keep than to actually play the map because theres no incentive and generally less reward to do so.

It's you that isn't getting it. Taking an undefended Keep or Resource earns a flat amount pf AP. If that Keep or resource is defended, you get AP for taking, AP for defeating the defenders and a bonus AP award.

You DONT get extra rewards for a defended keep though... if there are 30 defenders but you kill 0 of them and still take the keep, you get the same reward you would for an undefended keep... thus you ARE NOT getting rewarded for taking a keep period, all the AP gains are solely from kills, defense ticks are also from kills, NOT from defense... if you kill 0 people but the keep unflags you get nada.

I don't see whats so difficult to comprehend about what I'm saying... you can get kills anywhere and get the same AP gains or more, so there is no reason to play the map objectively other than getting D ticks which again are ONLY from kills and can be acquired from resources easier than a keep, forget about AP all together just substitute ANY reward for playing the map objectively is my point, I just used AP as the reward but it could be anything.

You do get rewarded whether you fight or not and whether you kill or not. You haven't wondered why people park and sponge inside keeps before or why people race to get to keeps that have already been defended or about to be taken. If you are in range you get O'ticks as you go and once the keep is taken and you get D'ticks as you go and a big one at the end if for a period of time there is no more fighting.

As I said I think what you are trying to say is that the last O'tick should be bigger. As I said there are a few factors at play, more than I mentioned I'm sure, for why D'ticks are bigger than O'ticks.

You ONLY get bonus AP if someone was killed period... yes it doesn't matter WHO killed them, but if there are defenders at a keep but they don't die (aka they fight you but run away) you do NOT get any reward for that, you will only get the same AP you would have gotten if you have just taken an empty keep... the reverse is true for defense, there is NO d-tick if no one was killed, even if the keep was flagged and you drove off the attackers and it unflagged... d-ticks and o-ticks are 100% based on kills, the capture tick is always a flat rate of like 100 points per keep and 25 per resource.

Kryptonite_Kent · November 2016

Theres a couple different things people are confusing as the same here...

1. rewards for KILLS at a keep, offense or defense
2. rewards for defending or capturing a keep

Yes the 2 are loosely "related", but the #1 thing is how you get all the AP and it is ONLY from kills... my focus is on #2 and there is NO direct reward for defending a keep, and only 100 points for capturing a keep, you INDIRECTLY get AP from #1 while doing #2 but they are not the same thing is what I'm getting at, and thus there is no real incentive to play the map objectively other than getting emperor because you can get d-ticks and o-ticks by camping a resource at some far off corner of the map and make the same or more AP as you could by doing the actual objectives of the campaign.

Curragraigue · November 2016

Kryptonite_Kent wrote: »

Curragraigue wrote: »

Kryptonite_Kent wrote: »

Ackwalan wrote: »

Kryptonite_Kent wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

Kryptonite_Kent wrote: »

Let me make an analogy to help explain lol...

1. Theres a rock on the ground with 50 cents under it if you go pick it up
2. Theres a rock on the ground with 500 bucks under it if you go pick it up, but you have to kick some dudes arse to do it

I'm saying the #2 system would be a great incentive to get more map play and less camping, which means more pvp, which is what we all want.

We already have #2 though, and that is what everyone is trying to tell you.

You get AP for killing the players at the keep, and you get bonus AP for taking/defending the keep based on how much AP the players you killed were worth. I'm struggling to figure why that isn't exactly what you are asking for.

If you're not satisfied with how much AP you get from taking the keeps you are taking, then go take a keep that has more defenders.

You're still not getting the point... you're NOT getting anything for taking a keep, you're geting that AP from kills while at a keep, the reward for actually taking the keep is still basically < 1 wall repair kit worth of AP, which doesn't provide any incentive to play the map when you could just simply go camp somewhere and achieve the same amount or more AP for doing nothing to help the campaign or the map.

You keep implying that I am complaining about not getting AP, I'm not, I'm in 1st place in my campaign, I'm saying the map is generally dead because its more AP to go do something like camp a route between keeps, camp a resource, camp outside a keep than to actually play the map because theres no incentive and generally less reward to do so.

It's you that isn't getting it. Taking an undefended Keep or Resource earns a flat amount pf AP. If that Keep or resource is defended, you get AP for taking, AP for defeating the defenders and a bonus AP award.

You DONT get extra rewards for a defended keep though... if there are 30 defenders but you kill 0 of them and still take the keep, you get the same reward you would for an undefended keep... thus you ARE NOT getting rewarded for taking a keep period, all the AP gains are solely from kills, defense ticks are also from kills, NOT from defense... if you kill 0 people but the keep unflags you get nada.

I don't see whats so difficult to comprehend about what I'm saying... you can get kills anywhere and get the same AP gains or more, so there is no reason to play the map objectively other than getting D ticks which again are ONLY from kills and can be acquired from resources easier than a keep, forget about AP all together just substitute ANY reward for playing the map objectively is my point, I just used AP as the reward but it could be anything.

You do get rewarded whether you fight or not and whether you kill or not. You haven't wondered why people park and sponge inside keeps before or why people race to get to keeps that have already been defended or about to be taken. If you are in range you get O'ticks as you go and once the keep is taken and you get D'ticks as you go and a big one at the end if for a period of time there is no more fighting.

As I said I think what you are trying to say is that the last O'tick should be bigger. As I said there are a few factors at play, more than I mentioned I'm sure, for why D'ticks are bigger than O'ticks.

You ONLY get bonus AP if someone was killed period... yes it doesn't matter WHO killed them, but if there are defenders at a keep but they don't die (aka they fight you but run away) you do NOT get any reward for that, you will only get the same AP you would have gotten if you have just taken an empty keep... the reverse is true for defense, there is NO d-tick if no one was killed, even if the keep was flagged and you drove off the attackers and it unflagged... d-ticks and o-ticks are 100% based on kills, the capture tick is always a flat rate of like 100 points per keep and 25 per resource.

No you get AP if someone attacked the wall. No needs to die for ticks.

Kryptonite_Kent · November 2016

Curragraigue wrote: »

Kryptonite_Kent wrote: »

Curragraigue wrote: »

Kryptonite_Kent wrote: »

Ackwalan wrote: »

Kryptonite_Kent wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

Kryptonite_Kent wrote: »

Let me make an analogy to help explain lol...

1. Theres a rock on the ground with 50 cents under it if you go pick it up
2. Theres a rock on the ground with 500 bucks under it if you go pick it up, but you have to kick some dudes arse to do it

I'm saying the #2 system would be a great incentive to get more map play and less camping, which means more pvp, which is what we all want.

We already have #2 though, and that is what everyone is trying to tell you.

You get AP for killing the players at the keep, and you get bonus AP for taking/defending the keep based on how much AP the players you killed were worth. I'm struggling to figure why that isn't exactly what you are asking for.

If you're not satisfied with how much AP you get from taking the keeps you are taking, then go take a keep that has more defenders.

You're still not getting the point... you're NOT getting anything for taking a keep, you're geting that AP from kills while at a keep, the reward for actually taking the keep is still basically < 1 wall repair kit worth of AP, which doesn't provide any incentive to play the map when you could just simply go camp somewhere and achieve the same amount or more AP for doing nothing to help the campaign or the map.

You keep implying that I am complaining about not getting AP, I'm not, I'm in 1st place in my campaign, I'm saying the map is generally dead because its more AP to go do something like camp a route between keeps, camp a resource, camp outside a keep than to actually play the map because theres no incentive and generally less reward to do so.

It's you that isn't getting it. Taking an undefended Keep or Resource earns a flat amount pf AP. If that Keep or resource is defended, you get AP for taking, AP for defeating the defenders and a bonus AP award.

You DONT get extra rewards for a defended keep though... if there are 30 defenders but you kill 0 of them and still take the keep, you get the same reward you would for an undefended keep... thus you ARE NOT getting rewarded for taking a keep period, all the AP gains are solely from kills, defense ticks are also from kills, NOT from defense... if you kill 0 people but the keep unflags you get nada.

I don't see whats so difficult to comprehend about what I'm saying... you can get kills anywhere and get the same AP gains or more, so there is no reason to play the map objectively other than getting D ticks which again are ONLY from kills and can be acquired from resources easier than a keep, forget about AP all together just substitute ANY reward for playing the map objectively is my point, I just used AP as the reward but it could be anything.

You do get rewarded whether you fight or not and whether you kill or not. You haven't wondered why people park and sponge inside keeps before or why people race to get to keeps that have already been defended or about to be taken. If you are in range you get O'ticks as you go and once the keep is taken and you get D'ticks as you go and a big one at the end if for a period of time there is no more fighting.

As I said I think what you are trying to say is that the last O'tick should be bigger. As I said there are a few factors at play, more than I mentioned I'm sure, for why D'ticks are bigger than O'ticks.

You ONLY get bonus AP if someone was killed period... yes it doesn't matter WHO killed them, but if there are defenders at a keep but they don't die (aka they fight you but run away) you do NOT get any reward for that, you will only get the same AP you would have gotten if you have just taken an empty keep... the reverse is true for defense, there is NO d-tick if no one was killed, even if the keep was flagged and you drove off the attackers and it unflagged... d-ticks and o-ticks are 100% based on kills, the capture tick is always a flat rate of like 100 points per keep and 25 per resource.

No you get AP if someone attacked the wall. No needs to die for ticks.

No, you don't... ticks are only from kills, you do not get ticks from someone attacking a wall unless you KILL that person.

Ernest145 · November 2016

@Kryptonite_Kent I don't blame you for wanting keeps and the campaign score to be more relevant instead of farming. At least you are trying to make suggestions, I personally don't think this is the right solution as there are ways this can be exploited and it doesn't make much sense to me. I rather them just make campaign rewards better so people want to win and reward the winning alliance with more rewards. Maybe even find away to track who contributes more to the actual campaign score and reward them also with gold rewards along with the top percent of ap earners.

I don't know when you start making taking objectives have more worth then that leads to whoever has the biggest zerg to just start pushing every keep they possibly can. Until they find away to balance factions populations and make small groups stronger against zergs then doing this will just make pvp worse. There is possibly a solution I just don't care to really think it all out since I don't pvp much anymore, but goodluck trying to get zos listen.

Kryptonite_Kent · November 2016

Ernest145 wrote: »

@Kryptonite_Kent I don't blame you for wanting keeps and the campaign score to be more relevant instead of farming. At least you are trying to make suggestions, I personally don't think this is the right solution as there are ways this can be exploited and it doesn't make much sense to me. I rather them just make campaign rewards better so people want to win and reward the winning alliance with more rewards. Maybe even find away to track who contributes more to the actual campaign score and reward them also with gold rewards along with the top percent of ap earners.

I don't know when you start making taking objectives have more worth then that leads to whoever has the biggest zerg to just start pushing every keep they possibly can. Until they find away to balance factions populations and make small groups stronger against zergs then doing this will just make pvp worse. There is possibly a solution I just don't care to really think it all out since I don't pvp much anymore, but goodluck trying to get zos listen.

All excellent points, and that's what I'm getting at here, I'm not saying you should get more AP for keeps necessarily, that was just 1 example... but theres a serious lack of incentive to actually play objectively, and conversely as you said if its solely about objectives with no system of counter balance to the factions which is how the "winner" of the campaign already is then you wind up with just nothing but zergs. Currently you have 2 major components, zergs taking the map solely for getting emp, and campers taking some resource to farm AP until they get kicked off the resource/outpost... neither of which seems to be a very positive direction for pvp. I do not think that those 2 things are "bad" in and of themselves, but without any incentive for people to actually play the map with some sort of objective direction and reward, that seems to be all that ever goes on.

Curragraigue · November 2016

Kryptonite_Kent wrote: »

Curragraigue wrote: »

Kryptonite_Kent wrote: »

Curragraigue wrote: »

Kryptonite_Kent wrote: »

Curragraigue wrote: »

Kryptonite_Kent wrote: »

Ackwalan wrote: »

Kryptonite_Kent wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

Kryptonite_Kent wrote: »

Let me make an analogy to help explain lol...

1. Theres a rock on the ground with 50 cents under it if you go pick it up
2. Theres a rock on the ground with 500 bucks under it if you go pick it up, but you have to kick some dudes arse to do it

I'm saying the #2 system would be a great incentive to get more map play and less camping, which means more pvp, which is what we all want.

We already have #2 though, and that is what everyone is trying to tell you.

You get AP for killing the players at the keep, and you get bonus AP for taking/defending the keep based on how much AP the players you killed were worth. I'm struggling to figure why that isn't exactly what you are asking for.

If you're not satisfied with how much AP you get from taking the keeps you are taking, then go take a keep that has more defenders.

You're still not getting the point... you're NOT getting anything for taking a keep, you're geting that AP from kills while at a keep, the reward for actually taking the keep is still basically < 1 wall repair kit worth of AP, which doesn't provide any incentive to play the map when you could just simply go camp somewhere and achieve the same amount or more AP for doing nothing to help the campaign or the map.

You keep implying that I am complaining about not getting AP, I'm not, I'm in 1st place in my campaign, I'm saying the map is generally dead because its more AP to go do something like camp a route between keeps, camp a resource, camp outside a keep than to actually play the map because theres no incentive and generally less reward to do so.

It's you that isn't getting it. Taking an undefended Keep or Resource earns a flat amount pf AP. If that Keep or resource is defended, you get AP for taking, AP for defeating the defenders and a bonus AP award.

You DONT get extra rewards for a defended keep though... if there are 30 defenders but you kill 0 of them and still take the keep, you get the same reward you would for an undefended keep... thus you ARE NOT getting rewarded for taking a keep period, all the AP gains are solely from kills, defense ticks are also from kills, NOT from defense... if you kill 0 people but the keep unflags you get nada.

I don't see whats so difficult to comprehend about what I'm saying... you can get kills anywhere and get the same AP gains or more, so there is no reason to play the map objectively other than getting D ticks which again are ONLY from kills and can be acquired from resources easier than a keep, forget about AP all together just substitute ANY reward for playing the map objectively is my point, I just used AP as the reward but it could be anything.

You do get rewarded whether you fight or not and whether you kill or not. You haven't wondered why people park and sponge inside keeps before or why people race to get to keeps that have already been defended or about to be taken. If you are in range you get O'ticks as you go and once the keep is taken and you get D'ticks as you go and a big one at the end if for a period of time there is no more fighting.

As I said I think what you are trying to say is that the last O'tick should be bigger. As I said there are a few factors at play, more than I mentioned I'm sure, for why D'ticks are bigger than O'ticks.

You ONLY get bonus AP if someone was killed period... yes it doesn't matter WHO killed them, but if there are defenders at a keep but they don't die (aka they fight you but run away) you do NOT get any reward for that, you will only get the same AP you would have gotten if you have just taken an empty keep... the reverse is true for defense, there is NO d-tick if no one was killed, even if the keep was flagged and you drove off the attackers and it unflagged... d-ticks and o-ticks are 100% based on kills, the capture tick is always a flat rate of like 100 points per keep and 25 per resource.

No you get AP if someone attacked the wall. No needs to die for ticks.

No, you don't... ticks are only from kills, you do not get ticks from someone attacking a wall unless you KILL that person.

Nope. The ticks are smaller but you only need someone to attack you don't need to kill the attacker when defending or defender when attacking. The ticks occur after a period of time attacking or defending but they are there.

NBrookus · November 2016

@Kryptonite_Kent

Discounting PvEers getting their warhorn or whatever, there are roughly 3 kinds of players:

Those looking for a good fight, for whom keeps and resources may be a means to an end.
Those who feel rewarded by AP. Again... keeps and stuff are just a means to an end.
Those that want to "win," because... winning.

The first doesn't care about the map and is only modestly rewarded by AP. The last is going to play the map regardless of AP, which is just a way of keeping score. The second kind of player will be motivated by a high AP bonus, but has no reason not to game the system, and still isn't going to be motivated to play strategically. Offer a high AP bonus and they will zerg every keep, let them flip to another faction, then do it again.

For example, I fall into group 1; AP is just an interesting diversion. Win or lose, I want a good hard fought fight. My concern for the map really only extends to wanting to have our home keeps and the often correspondingly balanced population a multi-color map brings. You could award 30k AP for pvdoor and I still wouldn't want to operate a stone treb... although sometimes I do it anyway in the interest of making a better Cyrodil to fight in.

I think if you want to incentivize strategic map play, AP is not the proper vehicle, but rather other kinds of rewards. Better RftW emails, or perhaps minor character perks. Like temporary dyes, costumes, horse ribbons or trophies for houses. It won't change the behavior of group one or two, but it might attract more people to group 3.

Keiryan · November 2016

Kryptonite_Kent wrote: »

Let me make an analogy to help explain lol...

1. Theres a rock on the ground with 50 cents under it if you go pick it up
2. Theres a rock on the ground with 500 bucks under it if you go pick it up, but you have to kick some dudes arse to do it

I'm saying the #2 system would be a great incentive to get more map play and less camping, which means more pvp, which is what we all want.

...

Do you play on Haderus or something? (Assuming PC)

Your analogy is exactly how PvP is.

You take an empty keep, you get nothing for AP.

You take a defended keep (Most of the time I will purposely take a resource and then slowly siege the wall to give people time to react), defenders will come and the more people I kill, the larger the O-tick will be.

I get the point you're trying to make, but you need to be presenting it with a much more creative solution for this post to even be worth reading.

ku5h · November 2016

Kryptonite_Kent wrote: »

Theres a couple different things people are confusing as the same here...

1. rewards for KILLS at a keep, offense or defense
2. rewards for defending or capturing a keep

Yes the 2 are loosely "related", but the #1 thing is how you get all the AP and it is ONLY from kills... my focus is on #2 and there is NO direct reward for defending a keep, and only 100 points for capturing a keep, you INDIRECTLY get AP from #1 while doing #2 but they are not the same thing is what I'm getting at, and thus there is no real incentive to play the map objectively other than getting emperor because you can get d-ticks and o-ticks by camping a resource at some far off corner of the map and make the same or more AP as you could by doing the actual objectives of the campaign.

I get what you mean. All top PvP groups either farm ppl open world (Alessia bridge), or they resource camp because there is the biggest AP/H. In my opinion keep taking should be most rewarding. My idea of improving this would be, increasing the "keep capture" tick based on enemy's killed in it. Example, if you took BRK and killed 20ppl in it, right now you would get like 40K split amongst the recipients of the tick, i would increase that modifier by maybe even double. So if you take well deffed keep, you should get a big chunk of AP, much better then farming ppl, but if you take keep that is not defended, you get nothing like before. Btw, i would leave def ticks as they are.

kevlarto_ESO · November 2016

To me one of the fundamental flaws in pvp, is personal gain is to great as compared to factional gain, you should get your personal gain through doing things for your faction since this a faction based pvp game. But the whole three faction war is kind of been made a joke, with all the flipping from faction to another and a ton of other flaws. Sad really

Kryptonite_Kent · November 2016

Keiryan wrote: »

Kryptonite_Kent wrote: »

Let me make an analogy to help explain lol...

1. Theres a rock on the ground with 50 cents under it if you go pick it up
2. Theres a rock on the ground with 500 bucks under it if you go pick it up, but you have to kick some dudes arse to do it

I'm saying the #2 system would be a great incentive to get more map play and less camping, which means more pvp, which is what we all want.

...

Do you play on Haderus or something? (Assuming PC)

Your analogy is exactly how PvP is.

You take an empty keep, you get nothing for AP.

You take a defended keep (Most of the time I will purposely take a resource and then slowly siege the wall to give people time to react), defenders will come and the more people I kill, the larger the O-tick will be.

I get the point you're trying to make, but you need to be presenting it with a much more creative solution for this post to even be worth reading.

Is your point to try to insult and belittle me? How is what campaign I'm on relevant, I offered one solution and have pointed out several times that there are other possibilities, and again I have explained several times that every tick you get is based solely on kills and not on the actual objective.

Kryptonite_Kent · November 2016

NBrookus wrote: »

@Kryptonite_Kent

Discounting PvEers getting their warhorn or whatever, there are roughly 3 kinds of players:
Those looking for a good fight, for whom keeps and resources may be a means to an end.

Those who feel rewarded by AP. Again... keeps and stuff are just a means to an end.

Those that want to "win," because... winning.

The first doesn't care about the map and is only modestly rewarded by AP. The last is going to play the map regardless of AP, which is just a way of keeping score. The second kind of player will be motivated by a high AP bonus, but has no reason not to game the system, and still isn't going to be motivated to play strategically. Offer a high AP bonus and they will zerg every keep, let them flip to another faction, then do it again.

For example, I fall into group 1; AP is just an interesting diversion. Win or lose, I want a good hard fought fight. My concern for the map really only extends to wanting to have our home keeps and the often correspondingly balanced population a multi-color map brings. You could award 30k AP for pvdoor and I still wouldn't want to operate a stone treb... although sometimes I do it anyway in the interest of making a better Cyrodil to fight in.

I think if you want to incentivize strategic map play, AP is not the proper vehicle, but rather other kinds of rewards. Better RftW emails, or perhaps minor character perks. Like temporary dyes, costumes, horse ribbons or trophies for houses. It won't change the behavior of group one or two, but it might attract more people to group 3.

I like your last point there, AP was just an example of what reward could be offered since as you and we all know, that's all most people care about it seems... but yes my point is an incentive to play the map objectively, perhaps like you say with unique rewards for being involved in x amount of keep capture, or x amount of keep defends, and perhaps even adding in a way to add in keeps taken and defended into the emperor system so that you have to actually be ACTIVELY helping your faction objectively to get emperor and not just farming kills somewhere on the map.

Kryptonite_Kent · November 2016

kevlarto_ESO wrote: »

To me one of the fundamental flaws in pvp, is personal gain is to great as compared to factional gain, you should get your personal gain through doing things for your faction since this a faction based pvp game. But the whole three faction war is kind of been made a joke, with all the flipping from faction to another and a ton of other flaws. Sad really

This is another excellent point, doing the objectives for the faction should be more rewarded than solo running around killing random people without helping the "war" effort... and I also agree with the faction flipping being a joke, people flip to whatever faction has the map control, or emperor, or is winning in points... and it also enables exploiting kills from your "friends" who have alts on other factions.

Sheuib · November 2016

Kryptonite_Kent wrote: »

Curragraigue wrote: »

Kryptonite_Kent wrote: »

Ackwalan wrote: »

Kryptonite_Kent wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

Kryptonite_Kent wrote: »

Let me make an analogy to help explain lol...

1. Theres a rock on the ground with 50 cents under it if you go pick it up
2. Theres a rock on the ground with 500 bucks under it if you go pick it up, but you have to kick some dudes arse to do it

I'm saying the #2 system would be a great incentive to get more map play and less camping, which means more pvp, which is what we all want.

We already have #2 though, and that is what everyone is trying to tell you.

You get AP for killing the players at the keep, and you get bonus AP for taking/defending the keep based on how much AP the players you killed were worth. I'm struggling to figure why that isn't exactly what you are asking for.

If you're not satisfied with how much AP you get from taking the keeps you are taking, then go take a keep that has more defenders.

You're still not getting the point... you're NOT getting anything for taking a keep, you're geting that AP from kills while at a keep, the reward for actually taking the keep is still basically < 1 wall repair kit worth of AP, which doesn't provide any incentive to play the map when you could just simply go camp somewhere and achieve the same amount or more AP for doing nothing to help the campaign or the map.

You keep implying that I am complaining about not getting AP, I'm not, I'm in 1st place in my campaign, I'm saying the map is generally dead because its more AP to go do something like camp a route between keeps, camp a resource, camp outside a keep than to actually play the map because theres no incentive and generally less reward to do so.

It's you that isn't getting it. Taking an undefended Keep or Resource earns a flat amount pf AP. If that Keep or resource is defended, you get AP for taking, AP for defeating the defenders and a bonus AP award.

You DONT get extra rewards for a defended keep though... if there are 30 defenders but you kill 0 of them and still take the keep, you get the same reward you would for an undefended keep... thus you ARE NOT getting rewarded for taking a keep period, all the AP gains are solely from kills, defense ticks are also from kills, NOT from defense... if you kill 0 people but the keep unflags you get nada.

I don't see whats so difficult to comprehend about what I'm saying... you can get kills anywhere and get the same AP gains or more, so there is no reason to play the map objectively other than getting D ticks which again are ONLY from kills and can be acquired from resources easier than a keep, forget about AP all together just substitute ANY reward for playing the map objectively is my point, I just used AP as the reward but it could be anything.

You do get rewarded whether you fight or not and whether you kill or not. You haven't wondered why people park and sponge inside keeps before or why people race to get to keeps that have already been defended or about to be taken. If you are in range you get O'ticks as you go and once the keep is taken and you get D'ticks as you go and a big one at the end if for a period of time there is no more fighting.

As I said I think what you are trying to say is that the last O'tick should be bigger. As I said there are a few factors at play, more than I mentioned I'm sure, for why D'ticks are bigger than O'ticks.

You ONLY get bonus AP if someone was killed period... yes it doesn't matter WHO killed them, but if there are defenders at a keep but they don't die (aka they fight you but run away) you do NOT get any reward for that, you will only get the same AP you would have gotten if you have just taken an empty keep... the reverse is true for defense, there is NO d-tick if no one was killed, even if the keep was flagged and you drove off the attackers and it unflagged... d-ticks and o-ticks are 100% based on kills, the capture tick is always a flat rate of like 100 points per keep and 25 per resource.

I have played this game since release and I have been mostly doing PVP the whole time. In all that time I have never seen a defended keep taken or properly defended and nobody dies. It just doesn't happen.

But here is the thing. Everyone in their own way does play the map. When a keep is being taken the guys that are solo ganking on the path to defend the keep are in a way helping the people taking the keep.

Even the fights at the choke points like the bridge are loosely playing the map because if that fight wasn't there the enemy would go through. If this was a real war that is exactly where the fights would happen. The keep would be the fall back position because you didn't properly defend the bridge. The big problem in the game with the bridge is that other objectives are lost while people fight at the bridge. And, yes things like that happen in real war as well.

Yolokin_Swagonborn · November 2016

Bring the Numidium to PvP. Scatter the parts all over cyrodiil. First alliance to find all the parts can put it together and use it to knock down walls. Once it's destroyed, the parts are scattered again.