Tank: "It's not my job to debuff." Yeah, right...

AtmaDarkwolf · November 2016

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

I can't wait until the "Elites" decide for us that both tanking AND healing are BOTH too easy and that every group should run 1 Tank/Healer/Utility Maid and 3 DPS. Actually that sounds kind of fun. Theorycrafting anyone?

I'd be ok with this. As someone who has DPSed for as long as ive played(IE from beta to now) and have ONLY RECENTLY attempted to do that most difficult of jobs / roles (Tanking) and the other most difficult task of healing, I can say I AM SICK of tanks (And to a lesser, a MUCH lesser degree, healers) going on about 'HOW MUCH SKILL IT TAKES TO TANK...'(or heal) and that DPSing is easy and ANY twit can do it...

It.

Does.

Not.

Its boring. you got that (As is healing) but you can MAKE it fun(not so much for healing, I really do appreciate healers more now)

But.

Its.

Easy.

And brain-dead simple.

I want to see tanks who ARE healers, and who ALSO debuff everything.

I want to see tanks have to juggle rotations that require very specific timings, weaving, bar-swaps, with multiple, and oddly clashing duration, while at same time very carefully managing their resource pools, to both keep the group alive, de-buffing the mobs, AND Keeping us buffed.

I want to see tanking take even a slight amount of effort DPSing does.

I then want to see special vMA style runs designed for this in mind(IE instead of u killing stuff, you have to lead an 'army' of battle-lemmings though an arena style area, and if they die, you lose)

Doctordarkspawn · November 2016

AtmaDarkwolf wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

I can't wait until the "Elites" decide for us that both tanking AND healing are BOTH too easy and that every group should run 1 Tank/Healer/Utility Maid and 3 DPS. Actually that sounds kind of fun. Theorycrafting anyone?

I'd be ok with this. As someone who has DPSed for as long as ive played(IE from beta to now) and have ONLY RECENTLY attempted to do that most difficult of jobs / roles (Tanking) and the other most difficult task of healing, I can say I AM SICK of tanks (And to a lesser, a MUCH lesser degree, healers) going on about 'HOW MUCH SKILL IT TAKES TO TANK...'(or heal) and that DPSing is easy and ANY twit can do it...

It.

Does.

Not.

Its boring. you got that (As is healing) but you can MAKE it fun(not so much for healing, I really do appreciate healers more now)

But.

Its.

Easy.

And brain-dead simple.

I want to see tanks who ARE healers, and who ALSO debuff everything.

I want to see tanks have to juggle rotations that require very specific timings, weaving, bar-swaps, with multiple, and oddly clashing duration, while at same time very carefully managing their resource pools, to both keep the group alive, de-buffing the mobs, AND Keeping us buffed.

I want to see tanking take even a slight amount of effort DPSing does.

I then want to see special vMA style runs designed for this in mind(IE instead of u killing stuff, you have to lead an 'army' of battle-lemmings though an arena style area, and if they die, you lose)

Honestly if all roles become this complicated It'd just drive away people like me who dont play DPS specifically -because- of how complicated it is. It's complications with buffstacking and dotstacking are largely why there are so few -good- DPS, and why the rest of us are scratching our heads on how to build effectively.

Then again, after telling a Pug, a new player all of two weeks old, that Attribute stacking effected DPS, that bow was useless, and that Stamina ment no survivability, this game has more design issues than this. New players can barely grasp what weapons are usefull, let alone how to build effective DPS.

I would rather have a system where I only have three abilities and then pick those abilities to do the most damage, then have the onus being on chaining them effectively and avoiding dungeon mechanics rather than the conveluded system we have now.

But as a person who does run a tank with healing abilities that helps the group, I'd like for this to be more viable too. I'd like for this game to truely give us options or to stick to the role system and commit to it, having rigid classes and roles. Pick one, we are no longer in a position to dally between.

TLDR: Lower the resistances and health the scaling raised because Pugs dont even know basic features of the combat system because the game never explains it, either let us make god tier characters with healing, DPS and tankiness or give us four rigid classes and rotations based on healing, damage, and tanking. (Yes, give tanking active rotations. Yes Wrobel, you have to make tanks fun. Deal.)

SienneYviete · November 2016

AtmaDarkwolf wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

I can't wait until the "Elites" decide for us that both tanking AND healing are BOTH too easy and that every group should run 1 Tank/Healer/Utility Maid and 3 DPS. Actually that sounds kind of fun. Theorycrafting anyone?

I'd be ok with this. As someone who has DPSed for as long as ive played(IE from beta to now) and have ONLY RECENTLY attempted to do that most difficult of jobs / roles (Tanking) and the other most difficult task of healing, I can say I AM SICK of tanks (And to a lesser, a MUCH lesser degree, healers) going on about 'HOW MUCH SKILL IT TAKES TO TANK...'(or heal) and that DPSing is easy and ANY twit can do it...

It.

Does.

Not.

Its boring. you got that (As is healing) but you can MAKE it fun(not so much for healing, I really do appreciate healers more now)

But.

Its.

Easy.

And brain-dead simple.

I want to see tanks who ARE healers, and who ALSO debuff everything.

I want to see tanks have to juggle rotations that require very specific timings, weaving, bar-swaps, with multiple, and oddly clashing duration, while at same time very carefully managing their resource pools, to both keep the group alive, de-buffing the mobs, AND Keeping us buffed.

I want to see tanking take even a slight amount of effort DPSing does.

I then want to see special vMA style runs designed for this in mind(IE instead of u killing stuff, you have to lead an 'army' of battle-lemmings though an arena style area, and if they die, you lose)

If you think that proper raid tanking or healing for that matter is not as you described juggling resources, debuffs/buffs, clashing rotations positioning etc then sorry you're not a very good tank/healer. Tanking healing and dpsing in this game is easy at it's most basic form but being actually good at your role and managing your uptimes perfectly is not and people in the know can tell straight away using combat metrics and watching you in action whether you know your s*#t or you're just s#*t at your role.

mildlylucid · November 2016

AtmaDarkwolf wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

I can't wait until the "Elites" decide for us that both tanking AND healing are BOTH too easy and that every group should run 1 Tank/Healer/Utility Maid and 3 DPS. Actually that sounds kind of fun. Theorycrafting anyone?

I'd be ok with this. As someone who has DPSed for as long as ive played(IE from beta to now) and have ONLY RECENTLY attempted to do that most difficult of jobs / roles (Tanking) and the other most difficult task of healing, I can say I AM SICK of tanks (And to a lesser, a MUCH lesser degree, healers) going on about 'HOW MUCH SKILL IT TAKES TO TANK...'(or heal) and that DPSing is easy and ANY twit can do it...

It.

Does.

Not.

Its boring. you got that (As is healing) but you can MAKE it fun(not so much for healing, I really do appreciate healers more now)

But.

Its.

Easy.

And brain-dead simple.

Gonna put myself out there and say that if you find tanking (don't know about healing) boring then you're probably an average tank.

I want to see tanks who ARE healers, and who ALSO debuff everything.

I want to see tanks have to juggle rotations that require very specific timings, weaving, bar-swaps, with multiple, and oddly clashing duration, while at same time very carefully managing their resource pools, to both keep the group alive, de-buffing the mobs, AND Keeping us buffed.

I want to see tanking take even a slight amount of effort DPS does.

I'm assuming here that the bit I've bolded is what you think makes DPSing harder than tanking. But the thing a large amount of DPS in this game (especially in the group finder) don't know the meaning of rotation because they are average (or bad) DPS.
Some of the content in this game is a cheese walk. For that content then you could probably claim tanking (and healing) is boring, but you'd also have to admit that DPSing is also just as boring in those situations. Reason is for that content you can ignore mechanics and a large part of being a good tank is knowing all the mechanics.
Lets consider an average tank. They're probably using the taunt+block strategy and not doing much else. Of course on the other side is the DPS doing 7k dps spamming wrecking blow (and based on my group finder experience this is pretty much average).
Climb up the ladder to vet HM trials and you have DPS practically playing an intense piece of classical music on their keyboard and tanks doing the right thing at the exactly right moment. Both require skill.

Different people enjoy (and are better at) different roles. Personally I think all roles are equally difficult when it comes to perfecting them.

Now back on topic for this thread,
In a group finder scenario you should only expect the bare minimum from each role.

Tank - Aggros boss
Healer - Keeps everyone's hp topped up
DPS - Not insta-dying and doing more dps than what you can do by light attacking

If you notice something about someone's build that you think could be improved on then feel free to tell them. However, don't be a *** about it. "Have you considered using X?" is a good way. If they get butthurt and leave the group because of that then good riddance. If they disagree with you then drop it and move on.
If you notice something someone is doing that is preventing you from completing the content then you can be more forceful in your approach, but otherwise just mention it and move on. It won't have that big an effect on your life, sure it might take a bit longer, but if you want to run lightning fast dungeons then you should get a group through zone or a guild rather than the group finder.

SublimeSparo · November 2016

AtmaDarkwolf wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

I can't wait until the "Elites" decide for us that both tanking AND healing are BOTH too easy and that every group should run 1 Tank/Healer/Utility Maid and 3 DPS. Actually that sounds kind of fun. Theorycrafting anyone?

I'd be ok with this. As someone who has DPSed for as long as ive played(IE from beta to now) and have ONLY RECENTLY attempted to do that most difficult of jobs / roles (Tanking) and the other most difficult task of healing, I can say I AM SICK of tanks (And to a lesser, a MUCH lesser degree, healers) going on about 'HOW MUCH SKILL IT TAKES TO TANK...'(or heal) and that DPSing is easy and ANY twit can do it...

It.

Does.

Not.

Its boring. you got that (As is healing) but you can MAKE it fun(not so much for healing, I really do appreciate healers more now)

But.

Its.

Easy.

And brain-dead simple.

I want to see tanks who ARE healers, and who ALSO debuff everything.

I want to see tanks have to juggle rotations that require very specific timings, weaving, bar-swaps, with multiple, and oddly clashing duration, while at same time very carefully managing their resource pools, to both keep the group alive, de-buffing the mobs, AND Keeping us buffed.

I want to see tanking take even a slight amount of effort DPSing does.

I then want to see special vMA style runs designed for this in mind(IE instead of u killing stuff, you have to lead an 'army' of battle-lemmings though an arena style area, and if they die, you lose)

I take it you haven't healed or tanked trials...

Doctordarkspawn · November 2016

SublimeSparo wrote: »

AtmaDarkwolf wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

I can't wait until the "Elites" decide for us that both tanking AND healing are BOTH too easy and that every group should run 1 Tank/Healer/Utility Maid and 3 DPS. Actually that sounds kind of fun. Theorycrafting anyone?

I'd be ok with this. As someone who has DPSed for as long as ive played(IE from beta to now) and have ONLY RECENTLY attempted to do that most difficult of jobs / roles (Tanking) and the other most difficult task of healing, I can say I AM SICK of tanks (And to a lesser, a MUCH lesser degree, healers) going on about 'HOW MUCH SKILL IT TAKES TO TANK...'(or heal) and that DPSing is easy and ANY twit can do it...

It.

Does.

Not.

Its boring. you got that (As is healing) but you can MAKE it fun(not so much for healing, I really do appreciate healers more now)

But.

Its.

Easy.

And brain-dead simple.

I want to see tanks who ARE healers, and who ALSO debuff everything.

I want to see tanks have to juggle rotations that require very specific timings, weaving, bar-swaps, with multiple, and oddly clashing duration, while at same time very carefully managing their resource pools, to both keep the group alive, de-buffing the mobs, AND Keeping us buffed.

I want to see tanking take even a slight amount of effort DPSing does.

I then want to see special vMA style runs designed for this in mind(IE instead of u killing stuff, you have to lead an 'army' of battle-lemmings though an arena style area, and if they die, you lose)

I take it you haven't healed or tanked trials...

Honestly the fact that Trials are the only place where tanks have to do anything aside from sit there is pretty disgracefull to the role as a whole. A rotation built on maintaining active defense would probs be more entertaining and prepare people for doing it under high pressure like in trials.

SublimeSparo · November 2016

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

SublimeSparo wrote: »

AtmaDarkwolf wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

I can't wait until the "Elites" decide for us that both tanking AND healing are BOTH too easy and that every group should run 1 Tank/Healer/Utility Maid and 3 DPS. Actually that sounds kind of fun. Theorycrafting anyone?

I'd be ok with this. As someone who has DPSed for as long as ive played(IE from beta to now) and have ONLY RECENTLY attempted to do that most difficult of jobs / roles (Tanking) and the other most difficult task of healing, I can say I AM SICK of tanks (And to a lesser, a MUCH lesser degree, healers) going on about 'HOW MUCH SKILL IT TAKES TO TANK...'(or heal) and that DPSing is easy and ANY twit can do it...

It.

Does.

Not.

Its boring. you got that (As is healing) but you can MAKE it fun(not so much for healing, I really do appreciate healers more now)

But.

Its.

Easy.

And brain-dead simple.

I want to see tanks who ARE healers, and who ALSO debuff everything.

I want to see tanks have to juggle rotations that require very specific timings, weaving, bar-swaps, with multiple, and oddly clashing duration, while at same time very carefully managing their resource pools, to both keep the group alive, de-buffing the mobs, AND Keeping us buffed.

I want to see tanking take even a slight amount of effort DPSing does.

I then want to see special vMA style runs designed for this in mind(IE instead of u killing stuff, you have to lead an 'army' of battle-lemmings though an arena style area, and if they die, you lose)

I take it you haven't healed or tanked trials...

Honestly the fact that Trials are the only place where tanks have to do anything aside from sit there is pretty disgracefull to the role as a whole.

I didn't say that. In fact you could argue the same regarding healers. I personally find it easier to run most dungeons with 1 tank 3 dps, some with 1 healer 3 dps and a couple with the trinity setup
If any role is underperforming in any group content the others have to make up for it.
In a dungeon if a tank is doing nothing, the healers and dps have to put in more work, etc. Not ideal
You want everyone doing the best they can, because it makes everyones job easier.
The difference between not having a tank and having a good tank is pretty staggering.
Without tank- enemies generally not debuffed, hardly any warhorns/ passive vigour heals, enemies not grouped, random aggro so adds no stationary, lots of wasted dps/ resources. Much more incoming damage
With tank- can focus purely on dps as all adds/ bosses are grouped stationary and debuffed, minimal incoming damage, better dps per resources used, less need for shields etc.
In some dungeons when i tank i pull multiple bosses and any adds together (where possible), keep them all aggrod and debuffed, off heal and regularly warhorn. Makes speed runs trivial

Doctordarkspawn · November 2016

SublimeSparo wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

SublimeSparo wrote: »

AtmaDarkwolf wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

I can't wait until the "Elites" decide for us that both tanking AND healing are BOTH too easy and that every group should run 1 Tank/Healer/Utility Maid and 3 DPS. Actually that sounds kind of fun. Theorycrafting anyone?

I'd be ok with this. As someone who has DPSed for as long as ive played(IE from beta to now) and have ONLY RECENTLY attempted to do that most difficult of jobs / roles (Tanking) and the other most difficult task of healing, I can say I AM SICK of tanks (And to a lesser, a MUCH lesser degree, healers) going on about 'HOW MUCH SKILL IT TAKES TO TANK...'(or heal) and that DPSing is easy and ANY twit can do it...

It.

Does.

Not.

Its boring. you got that (As is healing) but you can MAKE it fun(not so much for healing, I really do appreciate healers more now)

But.

Its.

Easy.

And brain-dead simple.

I want to see tanks who ARE healers, and who ALSO debuff everything.

I want to see tanks have to juggle rotations that require very specific timings, weaving, bar-swaps, with multiple, and oddly clashing duration, while at same time very carefully managing their resource pools, to both keep the group alive, de-buffing the mobs, AND Keeping us buffed.

I want to see tanking take even a slight amount of effort DPSing does.

I then want to see special vMA style runs designed for this in mind(IE instead of u killing stuff, you have to lead an 'army' of battle-lemmings though an arena style area, and if they die, you lose)

I take it you haven't healed or tanked trials...

Honestly the fact that Trials are the only place where tanks have to do anything aside from sit there is pretty disgracefull to the role as a whole.

I didn't say that. In fact you could argue the same regarding healers. I personally find it easier to run most dungeons with 1 tank 3 dps, some with 1 healer 3 dps and a couple with the trinity setup
If any role is underperforming in any group content the others have to make up for it.
In a dungeon if a tank is doing nothing, the healers and dps have to put in more work, etc. Not ideal
You want everyone doing the best they can, because it makes everyones job easier.
The difference between not having a tank and having a good tank is pretty staggering.
Without tank- enemies generally not debuffed, hardly any warhorns/ passive vigour heals, enemies not grouped, random aggro so adds no stationary, lots of wasted dps/ resources. Much more incoming damage
With tank- can focus purely on dps as all adds/ bosses are grouped stationary and debuffed, minimal incoming damage, better dps per resources used, less need for shields etc.
In some dungeons when i tank i pull multiple bosses and any adds together (where possible), keep them all aggrod and debuffed, off heal and regularly warhorn. Makes speed runs trivial

I know you didn't say that. I said that. And I stand by it. I'm just saying, if ZOS made the rolls more streamlined, better fleshed out, taught them better and made them -matter- outside of raids we'd see alot better people of -all- rolls, DPS included.

A soldier is only as good as their training.

Zypheran · November 2016

The arguments to and fro on the roles, skills and contributions of individuals in a group will always be contentious because it reflects the ever present rift between two groups. Even labelling these groups causes argument. One side has been called hard-core, meta-builds, elitists etc and the other side have been called casuals, noobs etc amongst other names.
The first group have put in time, effort and research to come up what they believe is the best way to play the game. The second group may not conform to this approach.
In my view, the game has always lent itself to diversity. Diversity in character build customisation, play styles and even what you want to spend your time doing in game. Also, the game has never marketed itself exclusively toward one group or another and imo does it's best to maintain balance in game difficulty to appease both groups.
My point is, with such diversity inherent in ESO, it is futile to take such absolutist stances on how the game or role should or should not be played. There have never been any official ZOS statements that I have ever seen that vindicate one opinion over another on the nuances of game play. If you cant tolerate players who don't conform to your expectations, then you should be more selective on how you form groups. The PUGS and GF tool has always been the ultimate RNGesus of MMO gameplay. If you use it, you need to accept that it will give you players of diverse approaches. Certainly feel free to offer suggestions on how they might play better, but taking a dogmatic stance and rubbishing others who don't play optimally or as good as you think you play, is pointless.
I've read so may comments like "if a player doesn't do this or does that then they shouldn't be in a group" ..... balderdash!
As long as the player is doing the basics, they have a right to play the content they have paid for.

Asardes · November 2016

Autolycus wrote: »

If you don't intend to conform to your role, then pick a different one. If you don't intend to do that either, then you don't belong in group content. One does not simply jump into a group dungeon and then not do their job. I would sooner see you leave, or not join up at all, if you are going to have this kind of mentality. Is it necessary to have a tank in veteran dungeons? For most of them, no, you can take in 3 dps in lieu of a support role. But to join a group as a tank, and then do nothing to support your group? Might as well have a 3rd real dps than an arrogant meat shield who will do nothing but stand there.

That's spot on. A player in a support role must indirectly increase the group DPS more than a full DDs would have in the situation where the basic role would be shared between those DDs. For example a tank must passively increase the DPS by boosting group DPS more than a full DPS would have, with aggro shared between them. A healer must boost the DPS more than a DD when all DDs slot self heals. Support does make a tremendous difference. I found a video a few days, with a comparison between a fight where the healer just heals, and the same fight where he uses his full support skills. Same holds for the tank. If he doesn't debuff, and does not slot and use group utility skills (buffs, debuffs, CC) in an effective way, he's just a meat sack and probably dead weight for the group.

[relevant part begins at 14:00]

https://youtu.be/Pu3A4iALQLU?t=14m

Dubhliam · November 2016

So much nonsense is written in this thread.

Everybody agrees a tank's job is to hold aggro.
There are only two skills that taunt: Puncture and Inner Fire.
One costs a small amount of stamina and provides a 5280 penetration debuff, it is the first skill in the 1H&S tree.
The other is an expensive skill with both resource morphs. It provides no utility, and requires a mediocre level of Undaunted to obtain.

The choice is obvious.

It's just like morphing Restoring Aura. One choice is obviously superior, but you can't stop people from being uninformed/stubborn.

This thread ventured deep into the "elitist meta" topic, but it should have stopped at common sense.

daedalusAI · November 2016

Zypheran wrote: »

The arguments to and fro on the roles, skills and contributions of individuals in a group will always be contentious because it reflects the ever present rift between two groups. Even labelling these groups causes argument. One side has been called hard-core, meta-builds, elitists etc and the other side have been called casuals, noobs etc amongst other names.
The first group have put in time, effort and research to come up what they believe is the best way to play the game. The second group may not conform to this approach.
In my view, the game has always lent itself to diversity. Diversity in character build customisation, play styles and even what you want to spend your time doing in game. Also, the game has never marketed itself exclusively toward one group or another and imo does it's best to maintain balance in game difficulty to appease both groups.
My point is, with such diversity inherent in ESO, it is futile to take such absolutist stances on how the game or role should or should not be played. There have never been any official ZOS statements that I have ever seen that vindicate one opinion over another on the nuances of game play. If you cant tolerate players who don't conform to your expectations, then you should be more selective on how you form groups. The PUGS and GF tool has always been the ultimate RNGesus of MMO gameplay. If you use it, you need to accept that it will give you players of diverse approaches. Certainly feel free to offer suggestions on how they might play better, but taking a dogmatic stance and rubbishing others who don't play optimally or as good as you think you play, is pointless.
I've read so may comments like "if a player doesn't do this or does that then they shouldn't be in a group" ..... balderdash!
As long as the player is doing the basics, they have a right to play the content they have paid for.

You already use a dogmatic view yourself as you deem everyone worthy of joining group play if he is able to press 1 button for a taunt or a heal while doing nothing else because "he is doing the basics and paying for content".

Of course he is paying for content and thus has a right to play what they want - but if you believe you're good enough to play a dungeon when in reality you barely are able to swap to your 2nd bar or know the difference between a buff and a debuff you should expect some harsh comments if you are nothing but deadweight for a group or only function on the level of a trash pack npc with his 2 or 3 abilities.

Doctordarkspawn · November 2016

Dubhliam wrote: »

So much nonsense is written in this thread.

Everybody agrees a tank's job is to hold aggro.
There are only two skills that taunt: Puncture and Inner Fire.
One costs a small amount of stamina and provides a 5280 penetration debuff, it is the first skill in the 1H&S tree.
The other is an expensive skill with both resource morphs. It provides no utility, and requires a mediocre level of Undaunted to obtain.

The choice is obvious.

It's just like morphing Restoring Aura. One choice is obviously superior, but you can't stop people from being uninformed/stubborn.

This thread ventured deep into the "elitist meta" topic, but it should have stopped at common sense.

The fact that there is this much misinformation is proof ZOS does not have a coherent idea of, nor know how to teach effectively, their holy trinity they keep basing their game around.

The roles need solidified and taught better. Then we'll stop seeing this sort of thing.

Kolache · November 2016

I probably would have responded exactly as that tank did TBH. Not because I think I know best, but because it was a PUG and I hate telling other people how to play if they didn't ask for my advice. To me, PUGs are an exercise in patience, managing expectations, and should never be taken too seriously.

I've been in tons of PUGs where DPS was severely lacking--it really seems more often than not actually. I've also been in plenty of PUGs where people can't stay alive through whatever mechanics and I end up having to solo bosses. In either case, I explain what I think the problem is "we don't have enough DPS" or "don't stand in the red" politely, but that's where my commentary ends unless they want advice. If I get annoyed enough by repeated failures I'll politely leave and wish them luck.

I expect the same from others, (at least if they want to keep me in their group). Don't get me wrong--I'm nothing special so it's no big loss to lose me as a tank; I just have no intention of having a forum debate like this one in game through group chat.

SublimeSparo · November 2016

Zypheran wrote: »

The arguments to and fro on the roles, skills and contributions of individuals in a group will always be contentious because it reflects the ever present rift between two groups. Even labelling these groups causes argument. One side has been called hard-core, meta-builds, elitists etc and the other side have been called casuals, noobs etc amongst other names.
The first group have put in time, effort and research to come up what they believe is the best way to play the game. The second group may not conform to this approach.
In my view, the game has always lent itself to diversity. Diversity in character build customisation, play styles and even what you want to spend your time doing in game. Also, the game has never marketed itself exclusively toward one group or another and imo does it's best to maintain balance in game difficulty to appease both groups.
My point is, with such diversity inherent in ESO, it is futile to take such absolutist stances on how the game or role should or should not be played. There have never been any official ZOS statements that I have ever seen that vindicate one opinion over another on the nuances of game play. If you cant tolerate players who don't conform to your expectations, then you should be more selective on how you form groups. The PUGS and GF tool has always been the ultimate RNGesus of MMO gameplay. If you use it, you need to accept that it will give you players of diverse approaches. Certainly feel free to offer suggestions on how they might play better, but taking a dogmatic stance and rubbishing others who don't play optimally or as good as you think you play, is pointless.
I've read so may comments like "if a player doesn't do this or does that then they shouldn't be in a group" ..... balderdash!
As long as the player is doing the basics, they have a right to play the content they have paid for.

Play yes, suceed though?
There obviously is some degree of expected play style as can been seen from the veyeran trials, try killing the first boss in vmol or the warrior in hrc with no buffs, debuffs and only light attack spamming and see what happens.

Khenarthi · November 2016

Ok - to the awesome tanky people in this thread:

I am playing a nightblade tank recently and loving my character to bits (tanking 4-man dungeons, not trials). Block and interrupt are used sparingly but effectively, resource management is not a problem (non-templar healers are welcome), I can keep myself alive and even take some pressure off the healer from the melee dds due to my class skills.

So far I have not received any specific requests for skills, or complaints about my tank (except for this one guy asking me to chain the mobs, which I cannot do because I'm not a DK).

But I do struggle a bit with the lack of crowd control with groups of mobs scattered in a room (specially archers that do chase me when taunted). Are there any advice you can offer?

Also, would it be worth it to slot trapping webs or bone shield from the undaunted skill line, to create more synergies for the group? I love it when someone uses my inner rage for a radiate... but the only other synergies I can offer are from the NB ultimates.

For some bosses like vet HM Spindle I or Tempest Island, I sometimes use the barrier ultimate to protect squishy group members (mostly pug), would this be ok or considered a wasted ultimate?

On topic, I use pierce armour liberally to poke various trash mobs and get their attention, if I know stamina won't be a problem, then sap them, while refreshing path ticks away. Both taunts have their uses.

Dubhliam · November 2016

Khenarthi wrote: »

But I do struggle a bit with the lack of crowd control with groups of mobs scattered in a room (specially archers that do chase me when taunted). Are there any advice you can offer?

WalksonGraves · November 2016

Dubhliam wrote: »

Khenarthi wrote: »

But I do struggle a bit with the lack of crowd control with groups of mobs scattered in a room (specially archers that do chase me when taunted). Are there any advice you can offer?

Garbage, it takes longer to range taunt and wait for a missile to block than it does to frigging walk casually to the mob. If you can't manipulate the terrible ai pathfinding without chains/swarm you don't know what you are doing. Just taunt and find something to break los, or kite them to where you want them to be.

Khenarthi · November 2016

Dubhliam wrote: »

Khenarthi wrote: »

But I do struggle a bit with the lack of crowd control with groups of mobs scattered in a room (specially archers that do chase me when taunted). Are there any advice you can offer?

Good tip - I'll try that. Although it depends on blocking the attack to get the proc.

Silver_Strider · November 2016

Khenarthi wrote: »

Ok - to the awesome tanky people in this thread:

I am playing a nightblade tank recently and loving my character to bits (tanking 4-man dungeons, not trials). Block and interrupt are used sparingly but effectively, resource management is not a problem (non-templar healers are welcome), I can keep myself alive and even take some pressure off the healer from the melee dds due to my class skills.

So far I have not received any specific requests for skills, or complaints about my tank (except for this one guy asking me to chain the mobs, which I cannot do because I'm not a DK).

But I do struggle a bit with the lack of crowd control with groups of mobs scattered in a room (specially archers that do chase me when taunted). Are there any advice you can offer?

Also, would it be worth it to slot trapping webs or bone shield from the undaunted skill line, to create more synergies for the group? I love it when someone uses my inner rage for a radiate... but the only other synergies I can offer are from the NB ultimates.

For some bosses like vet HM Spindle I or Tempest Island, I sometimes use the barrier ultimate to protect squishy group members (mostly pug), would this be ok or considered a wasted ultimate?

On topic, I use pierce armour liberally to poke various trash mobs and get their attention, if I know stamina won't be a problem, then sap them, while refreshing path ticks away. Both taunts have their uses.

Try and get the Swarm Mother monster set. It's a pseudo-DK chain that pulls enemies towards you while you block, very helpful for dungeons. The helm drops in vSpindleclutch 1 and the shoulder from one of the Undaunted chests (can't remember which though)

Trapping Webs and Bone Shield aren't extemely useful skills. Bone Shield is nice'ish on a Tank but often, synergies are wasted as PUGs don't really bother with them so both aren't really recommended or anything. It's more a judgement call on your end if you want to use them.

Barrier is fine for squishy PUG members, especially now that bosses tend to just 1 shot every squishy they get a hold of.

Nestor · November 2016

Khenarthi wrote: »

But I do struggle a bit with the lack of crowd control with groups of mobs scattered in a room (specially archers that do chase me when taunted). Are there any advice you can offer?

Also, would it be worth it to slot trapping webs

Webs for your crowd control, yes. Path is also good as a large area snare, probably better than Encase is for Sorcerers. Or, you can use Trapping Webs. Not sure of the area differences for the two skills, so pick the one that gives the largest area for the most mobs.

On the other hand, your not supposed to tank all mobs, just the ones that are in your range as you stay in front of the Boss. DPS is supposed to take out the adds while you keep the boss occupied and should prioritize the archers in that regard.

SublimeSparo · November 2016

I found when running without chains where possible just taunt the melee mobs and then stack them on top of the ranged ones, have to do this in trials even on a dk as elite adds aren't chainable

Khenarthi · November 2016

SublimeSparo wrote: »

I found when running without chains where possible just taunt the melee mobs and then stack them on top of the ranged ones, have to do this in trials even on a dk as elite adds aren't chainable

That's what I've been doing, but in a larger room (first one in Crypt of Hearts, middle ones in Mazzatun) it takes a lot of path+poke+run.

Silver_Strider · November 2016

Khenarthi wrote: »

SublimeSparo wrote: »

I found when running without chains where possible just taunt the melee mobs and then stack them on top of the ranged ones, have to do this in trials even on a dk as elite adds aren't chainable

That's what I've been doing, but in a larger room (first one in Crypt of Hearts, middle ones in Mazzatun) it takes a lot of path+poke+run.

Teleport strike lol.

I still remember back in the day when people thought it would be necessary for tanks to have gap closers to be successful.

NewBlacksmurf · November 2016

I'm Late to the topic but my opinion is that the issue lies with your use of words and timing. Also, that the responsibility was dictated and not asked.

I use to tank as a mag Templar months ago with the undaunted taunt. I did not also slot the sword n shield taunt because that was a bit silly as it's steam based months ago at least. I'm now redesigned and respec as a healer.

Anyways...it does come off as you suggesting that it's the tank job to do something that is based off other members inability to accomplish a certain strategy that you decided was best rather than the group as a whole.

In future interactions I really would suggest in manual groups or in PUGs of any types as well as activity finder groups that people communicate. This means ask how ppl play and if you or anyone feels that a player should do a certain thing, first as if they have it slotted and if they say no. Don't flip out.

Ask if they have the skill because you desire XYZ and don't ever suggest it's required. You can say, hey Player 2, when doing X, it helps me if Y and Z occur in these circumstances. Expect them not to comply and build your characters around what you want vs what you expect others to do.

Even such, could someone else not have been expected to make adjustments as well? Like maybe they use the skill and he taunt them off them or use some CC.

I've found that no one is ever right or wrong when suggesting someone else to play in another way than they are playing. It's just a hey guys, I don't think as a group we can accomplish this in how we play. I'm going to take off. o K?

gard · November 2016

Francis_Toliver wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

Kidly wrote: »

I'm an inner fire magicka heal tank. Is it my job to debuff or when I'm running dungeons can I just leave it to one of my 3 dps that I'm supporting with buffs?

Pretty much. No one else is expecting to have to use skills to accomplish something that is one the basic function of the tank. Ps is the cheapest and most efficient way to go about both.

Really? What about a nightblades Mark? Double the time and double the cost (approximately), which makes it as good a debuff as pierce. Actually better IMO because it doesn't need to be applied as often. I realize that it does not taunt, but combined with a taunt on the part of a tank, it works just as well.

The idea that a tank MUST debuff is simple stupidity. Others can, just as effectively and if they don't WANT to, then they can do what you are doing, complain, complain, complain.

Ask nicely and wait for an answer. But if you expect it like its a right...

Well, learn to live with disappointment.

If your nightblade is debuffing with mark target, he's not dpsing for that time, is he? What skill will mark target replace on the bar? And if he has to barswap, that's an even bigger dps loss.

Some bosses are a dps race. That kinda sucks, but it is what it is.

WalksonGraves · November 2016

gard wrote: »

Francis_Toliver wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

Kidly wrote: »

I'm an inner fire magicka heal tank. Is it my job to debuff or when I'm running dungeons can I just leave it to one of my 3 dps that I'm supporting with buffs?

Pretty much. No one else is expecting to have to use skills to accomplish something that is one the basic function of the tank. Ps is the cheapest and most efficient way to go about both.

Really? What about a nightblades Mark? Double the time and double the cost (approximately), which makes it as good a debuff as pierce. Actually better IMO because it doesn't need to be applied as often. I realize that it does not taunt, but combined with a taunt on the part of a tank, it works just as well.

The idea that a tank MUST debuff is simple stupidity. Others can, just as effectively and if they don't WANT to, then they can do what you are doing, complain, complain, complain.

Ask nicely and wait for an answer. But if you expect it like its a right...

Well, learn to live with disappointment.

If your nightblade is debuffing with mark target, he's not dpsing for that time, is he? What skill will mark target replace on the bar? And if he has to barswap, that's an even bigger dps loss.

Some bosses are a dps race. That kinda sucks, but it is what it is.

Technically you could use it backbar as it's 27 seconds long and super obvious, but no one does for the obvious reason that every tank needs piercing strike.

Runkorko · November 2016

AzuraKin wrote: »

ill be frank, i am working on a max health dk tank build, still need a few pieces before i can test it, but the goal that i am shooting for is not to merely tank a boss, but also eliminate need for a healer, wont go into the details i am focused on, but if it works it will be a nice build and a little different then my current tank meta in which i just tank everything (rotate targets as fight progresses to keep as many on me as i can) whereas if this build works like i plan on it, ill only be tanking the high damage hitters to avoid damage from dying. should work if it doenst drain my magicka too quickly.

The only clas who can achieve this is Templar. Dk can go VERRY close but with regen build. You can still try but i doubt it.
(dk tank since early access)

And for all moaners out there. My job is to hold agro, to be able to survive if healer need to outheal gpr, or is away, and to position boss so YOU can be able to do dps. If you want me to pick reduce ressit morph over increase armor one, just to booost your slacky skiny dps arses, then you are wrong. You join as dps right ?
THEN DO ALL POSIBLE TO DID MAX DPS AND STOP MOANING FOR SM1 ELSE TO BOOST YOU, LAZZY P**CKS!
And please dont die in aoe / and then blame healer or tank for no heal or agro.../
scrubs

SienneYviete · November 2016

runkorkoeb17_ESO wrote: »

AzuraKin wrote: »

ill be frank, i am working on a max health dk tank build, still need a few pieces before i can test it, but the goal that i am shooting for is not to merely tank a boss, but also eliminate need for a healer, wont go into the details i am focused on, but if it works it will be a nice build and a little different then my current tank meta in which i just tank everything (rotate targets as fight progresses to keep as many on me as i can) whereas if this build works like i plan on it, ill only be tanking the high damage hitters to avoid damage from dying. should work if it doenst drain my magicka too quickly.

The only clas who can achieve this is Templar. Dk can go VERRY close but with regen build. You can still try but i doubt it.
(dk tank since early access)

And for all moaners out there. My job is to hold agro, to be able to survive if healer need to outheal gpr, or is away, and to position boss so YOU can be able to do dps. If you want me to pick reduce ressit morph over increase armor one, just to booost your slacky skiny dps arses, then you are wrong. You join as dps right ?
THEN DO ALL POSIBLE TO DID MAX DPS AND STOP MOANING FOR SM1 ELSE TO BOOST YOU, LAZZY P**CKS!
And please dont die in aoe / and then blame healer or tank for no heal or agro.../
scrubs

You're a bad tank and you should feel bad. I can do the lazy job you can do on a light armor wearing magblade and pull high dps at the same time and heal myself, if you're gonna be an actual non scrub tier tank in this game then learn to actually do your role properly, smh at some of the bads in this thread that have zero clue on what a tank actually does.

oibam · November 2016

Woeler wrote: »

There are too many "tanks" in this game that have no clue.

Oh and ransack is for dummies. Be a man, use pierce armor ffs.

Be a man and join PvP. Then Ransack will be the better choice. PvE is for dummies.