WalksonGraves wrote: »

Zypheran wrote: »

'conform to your role' or 'conform to MY view of your role'
Also, where are these 'rules of the role'??

In the wisdom of the elders

Autolycus wrote: »

cbaudersub17_ESO wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Wow.

After nine pages of this, I am trying to figure out what we learned. People seem to have very specific and nuanced notions of what a tank "must" provide to the group beyond the basic definition of tanking. We are getting lost in the details here.

For basic Pugging, I tend to agree with @Silver_Strider

If the tank is holding aggro on big threats, that's all I care about.
If the healer is keeping everyone alive, that's all I care about.
Absolutely EVERYTHING else at that point is a bonus.

But that is not the REAL issue here. The real issue is ATTITUDE. A tank was asked by the group to provide a bit more utility and he responded very negatively.

But this can go both ways.

You can also have a group member DEMAND that your role run a certain skill and rage quit if you don't adjust your whole build to accommodate them. The details of "which skill" and what role should do what (beyond the basic definition of each role) are unimportant. The real issue is communication and kindness.

I tend to fulfill most "can you slot X skill" requests if they are reasonable and I can fit the skill in without compromising something that is "role critical" in my build. I will also suggest a certain role slot something different if I see a weakness in our group's composition that can be easily fixed by swapping one skill. But these are requests not demands and this dynamic only applies to PUG groups.

If you read the OP (and the OP'ster's clarifying comments of the situation), slotting Pierce Armor would not have made a bit of difference. If I am that tank AND the exchange of which taunt I should use happens AND it has absolutely nothing to do with beating the objective, I would consider dropping group, too. Think Dranos Valedor in Cradle of Shadows, holding aggro and other members of your party do not know what to do at that very special time...again....and again...and again...and again.

I largely agree with the sentiment of your post. PUGing ain't always easy. People need to manage their own expectations. If one finds that the group is not for them, it's probably best to drop group compared to potentially stirring up drama.

One should conform to the rules of the role they select. If you want to be a dps, then dps. If you want to be a tank, then your job is support. Just because veteran dungeons are relatively easy compared to competitive content does not change the nature of the role. I don't care if you're fighting a wolf in overland or hardmode Rhakkat, it doesn't change the fact that a tank's job is support.

If you believe that something as simple as Pierce Armor has little or no value to the group on the whole, you are simply wrong. It only takes a couple of buffs to enable your dps to far surpass what you can potentially crank out as a tank, and this is fact, not speculation. If you're cranking out more dps as a tank relative to the dps increase of running support skills/gear, then you are a dps, not a tank. Any build can put on Inner Fire and some sort of ward or self-heal and hold aggro. But if you think the tank's job is little more than holding aggro, you do not understand the role.

If you don't intend to conform to your role, then pick a different one. If you don't intend to do that either, then you don't belong in group content. One does not simply jump into a group dungeon and then not do their job. I would sooner see you leave, or not join up at all, if you are going to have this kind of mentality. Is it necessary to have a tank in veteran dungeons? For most of them, no, you can take in 3 dps in lieu of a support role. But to join a group as a tank, and then do nothing to support your group? Might as well have a 3rd real dps than an arrogant meat shield who will do nothing but stand there.

Autolycus wrote: »

cbaudersub17_ESO wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Wow.

After nine pages of this, I am trying to figure out what we learned. People seem to have very specific and nuanced notions of what a tank "must" provide to the group beyond the basic definition of tanking. We are getting lost in the details here.

For basic Pugging, I tend to agree with @Silver_Strider

If the tank is holding aggro on big threats, that's all I care about.
If the healer is keeping everyone alive, that's all I care about.
Absolutely EVERYTHING else at that point is a bonus.

But that is not the REAL issue here. The real issue is ATTITUDE. A tank was asked by the group to provide a bit more utility and he responded very negatively.

But this can go both ways.

You can also have a group member DEMAND that your role run a certain skill and rage quit if you don't adjust your whole build to accommodate them. The details of "which skill" and what role should do what (beyond the basic definition of each role) are unimportant. The real issue is communication and kindness.

I tend to fulfill most "can you slot X skill" requests if they are reasonable and I can fit the skill in without compromising something that is "role critical" in my build. I will also suggest a certain role slot something different if I see a weakness in our group's composition that can be easily fixed by swapping one skill. But these are requests not demands and this dynamic only applies to PUG groups.

If you read the OP (and the OP'ster's clarifying comments of the situation), slotting Pierce Armor would not have made a bit of difference. If I am that tank AND the exchange of which taunt I should use happens AND it has absolutely nothing to do with beating the objective, I would consider dropping group, too. Think Dranos Valedor in Cradle of Shadows, holding aggro and other members of your party do not know what to do at that very special time...again....and again...and again...and again.

I largely agree with the sentiment of your post. PUGing ain't always easy. People need to manage their own expectations. If one finds that the group is not for them, it's probably best to drop group compared to potentially stirring up drama.

One should conform to the rules of the role they select. If you want to be a dps, then dps. If you want to be a tank, then your job is support. Just because veteran dungeons are relatively easy compared to competitive content does not change the nature of the role. I don't care if you're fighting a wolf in overland or hardmode Rhakkat, it doesn't change the fact that a tank's job is support.

If you believe that something as simple as Pierce Armor has little or no value to the group on the whole, you are simply wrong. It only takes a couple of buffs to enable your dps to far surpass what you can potentially crank out as a tank, and this is fact, not speculation. If you're cranking out more dps as a tank relative to the dps increase of running support skills/gear, then you are a dps, not a tank. Any build can put on Inner Fire and some sort of ward or self-heal and hold aggro. But if you think the tank's job is little more than holding aggro, you do not understand the role.

If you don't intend to conform to your role, then pick a different one. If you don't intend to do that either, then you don't belong in group content. One does not simply jump into a group dungeon and then not do their job. I would sooner see you leave, or not join up at all, if you are going to have this kind of mentality. Is it necessary to have a tank in veteran dungeons? For most of them, no, you can take in 3 dps in lieu of a support role. But to join a group as a tank, and then do nothing to support your group? Might as well have a 3rd real dps than an arrogant meat shield who will do nothing but stand there.

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

cbaudersub17_ESO wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Wow.

After nine pages of this, I am trying to figure out what we learned. People seem to have very specific and nuanced notions of what a tank "must" provide to the group beyond the basic definition of tanking. We are getting lost in the details here.

For basic Pugging, I tend to agree with @Silver_Strider

If the tank is holding aggro on big threats, that's all I care about.
If the healer is keeping everyone alive, that's all I care about.
Absolutely EVERYTHING else at that point is a bonus.

But that is not the REAL issue here. The real issue is ATTITUDE. A tank was asked by the group to provide a bit more utility and he responded very negatively.

But this can go both ways.

You can also have a group member DEMAND that your role run a certain skill and rage quit if you don't adjust your whole build to accommodate them. The details of "which skill" and what role should do what (beyond the basic definition of each role) are unimportant. The real issue is communication and kindness.

I tend to fulfill most "can you slot X skill" requests if they are reasonable and I can fit the skill in without compromising something that is "role critical" in my build. I will also suggest a certain role slot something different if I see a weakness in our group's composition that can be easily fixed by swapping one skill. But these are requests not demands and this dynamic only applies to PUG groups.

If you read the OP (and the OP'ster's clarifying comments of the situation), slotting Pierce Armor would not have made a bit of difference. If I am that tank AND the exchange of which taunt I should use happens AND it has absolutely nothing to do with beating the objective, I would consider dropping group, too. Think Dranos Valedor in Cradle of Shadows, holding aggro and other members of your party do not know what to do at that very special time...again....and again...and again...and again.

I largely agree with the sentiment of your post. PUGing ain't always easy. People need to manage their own expectations. If one finds that the group is not for them, it's probably best to drop group compared to potentially stirring up drama.

One should conform to the rules of the role they select. If you want to be a dps, then dps. If you want to be a tank, then your job is support. Just because veteran dungeons are relatively easy compared to competitive content does not change the nature of the role. I don't care if you're fighting a wolf in overland or hardmode Rhakkat, it doesn't change the fact that a tank's job is support.

If you believe that something as simple as Pierce Armor has little or no value to the group on the whole, you are simply wrong. It only takes a couple of buffs to enable your dps to far surpass what you can potentially crank out as a tank, and this is fact, not speculation. If you're cranking out more dps as a tank relative to the dps increase of running support skills/gear, then you are a dps, not a tank. Any build can put on Inner Fire and some sort of ward or self-heal and hold aggro. But if you think the tank's job is little more than holding aggro, you do not understand the role.

If you don't intend to conform to your role, then pick a different one. If you don't intend to do that either, then you don't belong in group content. One does not simply jump into a group dungeon and then not do their job. I would sooner see you leave, or not join up at all, if you are going to have this kind of mentality. Is it necessary to have a tank in veteran dungeons? For most of them, no, you can take in 3 dps in lieu of a support role. But to join a group as a tank, and then do nothing to support your group? Might as well have a 3rd real dps than an arrogant meat shield who will do nothing but stand there.

Narrowminded view is narrowminded. Support can be provided in a number of different ways. We don't have the entire story in the OP, just that the tank wasn't using Piercing Armor. What if they were using Repentence/Shards so healer didn't have to? That would be classified support, wouldn't it? What if they were using Warhorn? Using Ebon/Alkosh? Where do you cut the line on how much support someone needs to use before it meets YOUR criteria of "his role is support"? Do you hold this high a standard for all PUG tanks?

Seriously, this type of mentality is terrible to have, especially for PUG groups.

cbaudersub17_ESO wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

cbaudersub17_ESO wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Wow.

After nine pages of this, I am trying to figure out what we learned. People seem to have very specific and nuanced notions of what a tank "must" provide to the group beyond the basic definition of tanking. We are getting lost in the details here.

For basic Pugging, I tend to agree with @Silver_Strider

If the tank is holding aggro on big threats, that's all I care about.
If the healer is keeping everyone alive, that's all I care about.
Absolutely EVERYTHING else at that point is a bonus.

But that is not the REAL issue here. The real issue is ATTITUDE. A tank was asked by the group to provide a bit more utility and he responded very negatively.

But this can go both ways.

You can also have a group member DEMAND that your role run a certain skill and rage quit if you don't adjust your whole build to accommodate them. The details of "which skill" and what role should do what (beyond the basic definition of each role) are unimportant. The real issue is communication and kindness.

I tend to fulfill most "can you slot X skill" requests if they are reasonable and I can fit the skill in without compromising something that is "role critical" in my build. I will also suggest a certain role slot something different if I see a weakness in our group's composition that can be easily fixed by swapping one skill. But these are requests not demands and this dynamic only applies to PUG groups.

If you read the OP (and the OP'ster's clarifying comments of the situation), slotting Pierce Armor would not have made a bit of difference. If I am that tank AND the exchange of which taunt I should use happens AND it has absolutely nothing to do with beating the objective, I would consider dropping group, too. Think Dranos Valedor in Cradle of Shadows, holding aggro and other members of your party do not know what to do at that very special time...again....and again...and again...and again.

I largely agree with the sentiment of your post. PUGing ain't always easy. People need to manage their own expectations. If one finds that the group is not for them, it's probably best to drop group compared to potentially stirring up drama.

One should conform to the rules of the role they select. If you want to be a dps, then dps. If you want to be a tank, then your job is support. Just because veteran dungeons are relatively easy compared to competitive content does not change the nature of the role. I don't care if you're fighting a wolf in overland or hardmode Rhakkat, it doesn't change the fact that a tank's job is support.

If you believe that something as simple as Pierce Armor has little or no value to the group on the whole, you are simply wrong. It only takes a couple of buffs to enable your dps to far surpass what you can potentially crank out as a tank, and this is fact, not speculation. If you're cranking out more dps as a tank relative to the dps increase of running support skills/gear, then you are a dps, not a tank. Any build can put on Inner Fire and some sort of ward or self-heal and hold aggro. But if you think the tank's job is little more than holding aggro, you do not understand the role.

If you don't intend to conform to your role, then pick a different one. If you don't intend to do that either, then you don't belong in group content. One does not simply jump into a group dungeon and then not do their job. I would sooner see you leave, or not join up at all, if you are going to have this kind of mentality. Is it necessary to have a tank in veteran dungeons? For most of them, no, you can take in 3 dps in lieu of a support role. But to join a group as a tank, and then do nothing to support your group? Might as well have a 3rd real dps than an arrogant meat shield who will do nothing but stand there.

...and you presume that those that would challenge the idea that a tank MUST be race W, class X, wear armor Y, and slot Z abilities beside taking and managing aggro provide no additional support to the group.

...if you believe Pierce Armor would have made a difference in the situation that this thread was predicated, you clearly did not read the OP or any of the OP'ster's clarifying comments.

...your 'fact' is NOT true for all groups and situations. Crap DPS buffed can still be crap.

A PUG group is not going to form then magically dominate the leaderboards. Defining 99% of the game because of what may or is believed to be required for 1% of the game is just a tad disingenuous.

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

cbaudersub17_ESO wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Wow.

After nine pages of this, I am trying to figure out what we learned. People seem to have very specific and nuanced notions of what a tank "must" provide to the group beyond the basic definition of tanking. We are getting lost in the details here.

For basic Pugging, I tend to agree with @Silver_Strider

If the tank is holding aggro on big threats, that's all I care about.
If the healer is keeping everyone alive, that's all I care about.
Absolutely EVERYTHING else at that point is a bonus.

But that is not the REAL issue here. The real issue is ATTITUDE. A tank was asked by the group to provide a bit more utility and he responded very negatively.

But this can go both ways.

You can also have a group member DEMAND that your role run a certain skill and rage quit if you don't adjust your whole build to accommodate them. The details of "which skill" and what role should do what (beyond the basic definition of each role) are unimportant. The real issue is communication and kindness.

I tend to fulfill most "can you slot X skill" requests if they are reasonable and I can fit the skill in without compromising something that is "role critical" in my build. I will also suggest a certain role slot something different if I see a weakness in our group's composition that can be easily fixed by swapping one skill. But these are requests not demands and this dynamic only applies to PUG groups.

If you read the OP (and the OP'ster's clarifying comments of the situation), slotting Pierce Armor would not have made a bit of difference. If I am that tank AND the exchange of which taunt I should use happens AND it has absolutely nothing to do with beating the objective, I would consider dropping group, too. Think Dranos Valedor in Cradle of Shadows, holding aggro and other members of your party do not know what to do at that very special time...again....and again...and again...and again.

I largely agree with the sentiment of your post. PUGing ain't always easy. People need to manage their own expectations. If one finds that the group is not for them, it's probably best to drop group compared to potentially stirring up drama.

One should conform to the rules of the role they select. If you want to be a dps, then dps. If you want to be a tank, then your job is support. Just because veteran dungeons are relatively easy compared to competitive content does not change the nature of the role. I don't care if you're fighting a wolf in overland or hardmode Rhakkat, it doesn't change the fact that a tank's job is support.

If you believe that something as simple as Pierce Armor has little or no value to the group on the whole, you are simply wrong. It only takes a couple of buffs to enable your dps to far surpass what you can potentially crank out as a tank, and this is fact, not speculation. If you're cranking out more dps as a tank relative to the dps increase of running support skills/gear, then you are a dps, not a tank. Any build can put on Inner Fire and some sort of ward or self-heal and hold aggro. But if you think the tank's job is little more than holding aggro, you do not understand the role.

If you don't intend to conform to your role, then pick a different one. If you don't intend to do that either, then you don't belong in group content. One does not simply jump into a group dungeon and then not do their job. I would sooner see you leave, or not join up at all, if you are going to have this kind of mentality. Is it necessary to have a tank in veteran dungeons? For most of them, no, you can take in 3 dps in lieu of a support role. But to join a group as a tank, and then do nothing to support your group? Might as well have a 3rd real dps than an arrogant meat shield who will do nothing but stand there.

Narrowminded view is narrowminded. Support can be provided in a number of different ways. We don't have the entire story in the OP, just that the tank wasn't using Piercing Armor. What if they were using Repentence/Shards so healer didn't have to? That would be classified support, wouldn't it? What if they were using Warhorn? Using Ebon/Alkosh? Where do you cut the line on how much support someone needs to use before it meets YOUR criteria of "his role is support"? Do you hold this high a standard for all PUG tanks?

Seriously, this type of mentality is terrible to have, especially for PUG groups.

Let's see if I understand you correctly.

To summarize my previous post: I believe that everyone in the group should do their job. If a tank is not providing support, they are not doing their job.

So not only did I not criticize the OP, but I also made no claims to suggest that other types of support are "not good enough." And as Destruent pointed out, said tank could have used Pierce Armor in addition to any number of support buffs.

If you want to get specific about Pierce Armor, I said: "If you believe that something as simple as Pierce Armor has little or no value to the group on the whole, you are simply wrong." Do you believe Pierce Armor has no value? If so, I say you're wrong. It's value is easily measurable.

What game are you playing in which asking for a tank to provide support is considered a "high standard" of tanking? You are literally putting words into my mouth, and I shame you for it. If I enter a PUG with a tank that uses only Inner Fire and just stands there, I would rather have literally any other role to replace him/her. I would much rather have my healer put on Inner Fire and pull in a third dps. That individual is trying to do group content but is doing nothing for their group.

And you are ASSUMING the tank was just standing there using inner fire and nothing else. Also, you act as though it is impossible to replicate the debuffs that Pierce Armor provides; I do it all the time with my NB and just throwing on Piercing Mark. Is it easier for the Tank to do it? Yes but it isn't outright mandatory either, as you are assuming it is. Shame me for assuming I don't understand the value of Pierce Armor, which is another assumption you are wrong on btw, but the fact of the matter is this.

In group content, it is the job of the GROUP to get thru the content, not just 1 person.

Zypheran wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Zypheran wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

Zypheran wrote: »

'conform to your role' or 'conform to MY view of your role'
Also, where are these 'rules of the role'??

In the wisdom of the elders

Ah, I didn't check there. I had a quick look in 'The Opinions of the Elite' but didn't see it

So everyone with common sense is an elitist, got it. Thanks for sharing.

No thankfully. Elitism and common sense are usually on opposite ends of spectrum.
I do however stand by what I actually said which is that there is a difference between conforming to a role and conforming to somebodies opinion of what a role should be. There are no such official rules that dictate what people should or should not do in a dungeon. Yes, common sense as you mentioned should allow us all to agree with the GENERAL roles of tank, DD and healer. But I don't agree with the presumption that it is an unassailable rule that a tank must debuff the boss. I think it's a good idea certainly but beyond that ... just opinion. Too many people take the joy out of game by believing that anybody not conforming to their notions on how another player should or should not play their role, should not be allowed to play group content.

Zypheran wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Zypheran wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

Zypheran wrote: »

'conform to your role' or 'conform to MY view of your role'
Also, where are these 'rules of the role'??

In the wisdom of the elders

Ah, I didn't check there. I had a quick look in 'The Opinions of the Elite' but didn't see it

So everyone with common sense is an elitist, got it. Thanks for sharing.

No thankfully. Elitism and common sense are usually on opposite ends of spectrum.
I do however stand by what I actually said which is that there is a difference between conforming to a role and conforming to somebodies opinion of what a role should be. There are no such official rules that dictate what people should or should not do in a dungeon. Yes, common sense as you mentioned should allow us all to agree with the GENERAL roles of tank, DD and healer. But I don't agree with the presumption that it is an unassailable rule that a tank must debuff the boss. I think it's a good idea certainly but beyond that ... just opinion. Too many people take the joy out of game by believing that anybody not conforming to their notions on how another player should or should not play their role, should not be allowed to play group content.

Autolycus wrote: »

cbaudersub17_ESO wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

cbaudersub17_ESO wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Wow.

After nine pages of this, I am trying to figure out what we learned. People seem to have very specific and nuanced notions of what a tank "must" provide to the group beyond the basic definition of tanking. We are getting lost in the details here.

For basic Pugging, I tend to agree with @Silver_Strider

If the tank is holding aggro on big threats, that's all I care about.
If the healer is keeping everyone alive, that's all I care about.
Absolutely EVERYTHING else at that point is a bonus.

But that is not the REAL issue here. The real issue is ATTITUDE. A tank was asked by the group to provide a bit more utility and he responded very negatively.

But this can go both ways.

You can also have a group member DEMAND that your role run a certain skill and rage quit if you don't adjust your whole build to accommodate them. The details of "which skill" and what role should do what (beyond the basic definition of each role) are unimportant. The real issue is communication and kindness.

I tend to fulfill most "can you slot X skill" requests if they are reasonable and I can fit the skill in without compromising something that is "role critical" in my build. I will also suggest a certain role slot something different if I see a weakness in our group's composition that can be easily fixed by swapping one skill. But these are requests not demands and this dynamic only applies to PUG groups.

If you read the OP (and the OP'ster's clarifying comments of the situation), slotting Pierce Armor would not have made a bit of difference. If I am that tank AND the exchange of which taunt I should use happens AND it has absolutely nothing to do with beating the objective, I would consider dropping group, too. Think Dranos Valedor in Cradle of Shadows, holding aggro and other members of your party do not know what to do at that very special time...again....and again...and again...and again.

I largely agree with the sentiment of your post. PUGing ain't always easy. People need to manage their own expectations. If one finds that the group is not for them, it's probably best to drop group compared to potentially stirring up drama.

One should conform to the rules of the role they select. If you want to be a dps, then dps. If you want to be a tank, then your job is support. Just because veteran dungeons are relatively easy compared to competitive content does not change the nature of the role. I don't care if you're fighting a wolf in overland or hardmode Rhakkat, it doesn't change the fact that a tank's job is support.

If you believe that something as simple as Pierce Armor has little or no value to the group on the whole, you are simply wrong. It only takes a couple of buffs to enable your dps to far surpass what you can potentially crank out as a tank, and this is fact, not speculation. If you're cranking out more dps as a tank relative to the dps increase of running support skills/gear, then you are a dps, not a tank. Any build can put on Inner Fire and some sort of ward or self-heal and hold aggro. But if you think the tank's job is little more than holding aggro, you do not understand the role.

If you don't intend to conform to your role, then pick a different one. If you don't intend to do that either, then you don't belong in group content. One does not simply jump into a group dungeon and then not do their job. I would sooner see you leave, or not join up at all, if you are going to have this kind of mentality. Is it necessary to have a tank in veteran dungeons? For most of them, no, you can take in 3 dps in lieu of a support role. But to join a group as a tank, and then do nothing to support your group? Might as well have a 3rd real dps than an arrogant meat shield who will do nothing but stand there.

...and you presume that those that would challenge the idea that a tank MUST be race W, class X, wear armor Y, and slot Z abilities beside taking and managing aggro provide no additional support to the group.

...if you believe Pierce Armor would have made a difference in the situation that this thread was predicated, you clearly did not read the OP or any of the OP'ster's clarifying comments.

...your 'fact' is NOT true for all groups and situations. Crap DPS buffed can still be crap.

A PUG group is not going to form then magically dominate the leaderboards. Defining 99% of the game because of what may or is believed to be required for 1% of the game is just a tad disingenuous.

Um... what? You are just making stuff up. I didn't say any of that. I said the tank should do their job, and their job is support. For someone who claims I "didn't read the OP" (and btw, I didn't criticize the OP), you sure seem to have difficulties reading my post for what it actually says.

I never have and never will presume to tell anyone that metagaming and min/maxing are necessary for vet dungeons. That's ridiculous, and those are your words, not mine. This isn't about competitive content. So let's try to stay on topic, okay?

P.S.
1. There are no leaderboards for vet dungeons.
2. Buffed "crap" dps is still better than unbuffed "crap" dps.

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

cbaudersub17_ESO wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Wow.

After nine pages of this, I am trying to figure out what we learned. People seem to have very specific and nuanced notions of what a tank "must" provide to the group beyond the basic definition of tanking. We are getting lost in the details here.

For basic Pugging, I tend to agree with @Silver_Strider

If the tank is holding aggro on big threats, that's all I care about.
If the healer is keeping everyone alive, that's all I care about.
Absolutely EVERYTHING else at that point is a bonus.

But that is not the REAL issue here. The real issue is ATTITUDE. A tank was asked by the group to provide a bit more utility and he responded very negatively.

But this can go both ways.

You can also have a group member DEMAND that your role run a certain skill and rage quit if you don't adjust your whole build to accommodate them. The details of "which skill" and what role should do what (beyond the basic definition of each role) are unimportant. The real issue is communication and kindness.

I tend to fulfill most "can you slot X skill" requests if they are reasonable and I can fit the skill in without compromising something that is "role critical" in my build. I will also suggest a certain role slot something different if I see a weakness in our group's composition that can be easily fixed by swapping one skill. But these are requests not demands and this dynamic only applies to PUG groups.

If you read the OP (and the OP'ster's clarifying comments of the situation), slotting Pierce Armor would not have made a bit of difference. If I am that tank AND the exchange of which taunt I should use happens AND it has absolutely nothing to do with beating the objective, I would consider dropping group, too. Think Dranos Valedor in Cradle of Shadows, holding aggro and other members of your party do not know what to do at that very special time...again....and again...and again...and again.

I largely agree with the sentiment of your post. PUGing ain't always easy. People need to manage their own expectations. If one finds that the group is not for them, it's probably best to drop group compared to potentially stirring up drama.

One should conform to the rules of the role they select. If you want to be a dps, then dps. If you want to be a tank, then your job is support. Just because veteran dungeons are relatively easy compared to competitive content does not change the nature of the role. I don't care if you're fighting a wolf in overland or hardmode Rhakkat, it doesn't change the fact that a tank's job is support.

If you believe that something as simple as Pierce Armor has little or no value to the group on the whole, you are simply wrong. It only takes a couple of buffs to enable your dps to far surpass what you can potentially crank out as a tank, and this is fact, not speculation. If you're cranking out more dps as a tank relative to the dps increase of running support skills/gear, then you are a dps, not a tank. Any build can put on Inner Fire and some sort of ward or self-heal and hold aggro. But if you think the tank's job is little more than holding aggro, you do not understand the role.

If you don't intend to conform to your role, then pick a different one. If you don't intend to do that either, then you don't belong in group content. One does not simply jump into a group dungeon and then not do their job. I would sooner see you leave, or not join up at all, if you are going to have this kind of mentality. Is it necessary to have a tank in veteran dungeons? For most of them, no, you can take in 3 dps in lieu of a support role. But to join a group as a tank, and then do nothing to support your group? Might as well have a 3rd real dps than an arrogant meat shield who will do nothing but stand there.

Narrowminded view is narrowminded. Support can be provided in a number of different ways. We don't have the entire story in the OP, just that the tank wasn't using Piercing Armor. What if they were using Repentence/Shards so healer didn't have to? That would be classified support, wouldn't it? What if they were using Warhorn? Using Ebon/Alkosh? Where do you cut the line on how much support someone needs to use before it meets YOUR criteria of "his role is support"? Do you hold this high a standard for all PUG tanks?

Seriously, this type of mentality is terrible to have, especially for PUG groups.

Let's see if I understand you correctly.

To summarize my previous post: I believe that everyone in the group should do their job. If a tank is not providing support, they are not doing their job.

So not only did I not criticize the OP, but I also made no claims to suggest that other types of support are "not good enough." And as Destruent pointed out, said tank could have used Pierce Armor in addition to any number of support buffs.

If you want to get specific about Pierce Armor, I said: "If you believe that something as simple as Pierce Armor has little or no value to the group on the whole, you are simply wrong." Do you believe Pierce Armor has no value? If so, I say you're wrong. It's value is easily measurable.

What game are you playing in which asking for a tank to provide support is considered a "high standard" of tanking? You are literally putting words into my mouth, and I shame you for it. If I enter a PUG with a tank that uses only Inner Fire and just stands there, I would rather have literally any other role to replace him/her. I would much rather have my healer put on Inner Fire and pull in a third dps. That individual is trying to do group content but is doing nothing for their group.

And you are ASSUMING the tank was just standing there using inner fire and nothing else. Also, you act as though it is impossible to replicate the debuffs that Pierce Armor provides; I do it all the time with my NB and just throwing on Piercing Mark. Is it easier for the Tank to do it? Yes but it isn't outright mandatory either, as you are assuming it is. Shame me for assuming I don't understand the value of Pierce Armor, which is another assumption you are wrong on btw, but the fact of the matter is this.

In group content, it is the job of the GROUP to get thru the content, not just 1 person.

Yeah, duh. Of course it's easy to replicate some buffs/debuffs. What's your deal, anyway? I said IF the tank is just standing there using only Inner Fire. Forget your specific scenario. I made a general statement. Tanking is a support role. If you aren't prepared to provide some kind of support, then you shouldn't tank. It's not a difficult concept. Quit taking things out of context.

And yeah, it is the group's job to complete group content. It's also the individual's job to carry their own weight, at least. In a run with guildmates or friends, we're all prepared to pick up the slack if one of our group members is a little undergeared or whatever. If you join a PUG with zero intention of at least trying to pull your weight, then maybe you shouldn't be joining PUGs.

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

cbaudersub17_ESO wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

cbaudersub17_ESO wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Wow.

After nine pages of this, I am trying to figure out what we learned. People seem to have very specific and nuanced notions of what a tank "must" provide to the group beyond the basic definition of tanking. We are getting lost in the details here.

For basic Pugging, I tend to agree with @Silver_Strider

If the tank is holding aggro on big threats, that's all I care about.
If the healer is keeping everyone alive, that's all I care about.
Absolutely EVERYTHING else at that point is a bonus.

But that is not the REAL issue here. The real issue is ATTITUDE. A tank was asked by the group to provide a bit more utility and he responded very negatively.

But this can go both ways.

You can also have a group member DEMAND that your role run a certain skill and rage quit if you don't adjust your whole build to accommodate them. The details of "which skill" and what role should do what (beyond the basic definition of each role) are unimportant. The real issue is communication and kindness.

I tend to fulfill most "can you slot X skill" requests if they are reasonable and I can fit the skill in without compromising something that is "role critical" in my build. I will also suggest a certain role slot something different if I see a weakness in our group's composition that can be easily fixed by swapping one skill. But these are requests not demands and this dynamic only applies to PUG groups.

If you read the OP (and the OP'ster's clarifying comments of the situation), slotting Pierce Armor would not have made a bit of difference. If I am that tank AND the exchange of which taunt I should use happens AND it has absolutely nothing to do with beating the objective, I would consider dropping group, too. Think Dranos Valedor in Cradle of Shadows, holding aggro and other members of your party do not know what to do at that very special time...again....and again...and again...and again.

I largely agree with the sentiment of your post. PUGing ain't always easy. People need to manage their own expectations. If one finds that the group is not for them, it's probably best to drop group compared to potentially stirring up drama.

One should conform to the rules of the role they select. If you want to be a dps, then dps. If you want to be a tank, then your job is support. Just because veteran dungeons are relatively easy compared to competitive content does not change the nature of the role. I don't care if you're fighting a wolf in overland or hardmode Rhakkat, it doesn't change the fact that a tank's job is support.

If you believe that something as simple as Pierce Armor has little or no value to the group on the whole, you are simply wrong. It only takes a couple of buffs to enable your dps to far surpass what you can potentially crank out as a tank, and this is fact, not speculation. If you're cranking out more dps as a tank relative to the dps increase of running support skills/gear, then you are a dps, not a tank. Any build can put on Inner Fire and some sort of ward or self-heal and hold aggro. But if you think the tank's job is little more than holding aggro, you do not understand the role.

If you don't intend to conform to your role, then pick a different one. If you don't intend to do that either, then you don't belong in group content. One does not simply jump into a group dungeon and then not do their job. I would sooner see you leave, or not join up at all, if you are going to have this kind of mentality. Is it necessary to have a tank in veteran dungeons? For most of them, no, you can take in 3 dps in lieu of a support role. But to join a group as a tank, and then do nothing to support your group? Might as well have a 3rd real dps than an arrogant meat shield who will do nothing but stand there.

...and you presume that those that would challenge the idea that a tank MUST be race W, class X, wear armor Y, and slot Z abilities beside taking and managing aggro provide no additional support to the group.

...if you believe Pierce Armor would have made a difference in the situation that this thread was predicated, you clearly did not read the OP or any of the OP'ster's clarifying comments.

...your 'fact' is NOT true for all groups and situations. Crap DPS buffed can still be crap.

A PUG group is not going to form then magically dominate the leaderboards. Defining 99% of the game because of what may or is believed to be required for 1% of the game is just a tad disingenuous.

Um... what? You are just making stuff up. I didn't say any of that. I said the tank should do their job, and their job is support. For someone who claims I "didn't read the OP" (and btw, I didn't criticize the OP), you sure seem to have difficulties reading my post for what it actually says.

I never have and never will presume to tell anyone that metagaming and min/maxing are necessary for vet dungeons. That's ridiculous, and those are your words, not mine. This isn't about competitive content. So let's try to stay on topic, okay?

P.S.
1. There are no leaderboards for vet dungeons.
2. Buffed "crap" dps is still better than unbuffed "crap" dps.

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

cbaudersub17_ESO wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Wow.

After nine pages of this, I am trying to figure out what we learned. People seem to have very specific and nuanced notions of what a tank "must" provide to the group beyond the basic definition of tanking. We are getting lost in the details here.

For basic Pugging, I tend to agree with @Silver_Strider

If the tank is holding aggro on big threats, that's all I care about.
If the healer is keeping everyone alive, that's all I care about.
Absolutely EVERYTHING else at that point is a bonus.

But that is not the REAL issue here. The real issue is ATTITUDE. A tank was asked by the group to provide a bit more utility and he responded very negatively.

But this can go both ways.

You can also have a group member DEMAND that your role run a certain skill and rage quit if you don't adjust your whole build to accommodate them. The details of "which skill" and what role should do what (beyond the basic definition of each role) are unimportant. The real issue is communication and kindness.

I tend to fulfill most "can you slot X skill" requests if they are reasonable and I can fit the skill in without compromising something that is "role critical" in my build. I will also suggest a certain role slot something different if I see a weakness in our group's composition that can be easily fixed by swapping one skill. But these are requests not demands and this dynamic only applies to PUG groups.

If you read the OP (and the OP'ster's clarifying comments of the situation), slotting Pierce Armor would not have made a bit of difference. If I am that tank AND the exchange of which taunt I should use happens AND it has absolutely nothing to do with beating the objective, I would consider dropping group, too. Think Dranos Valedor in Cradle of Shadows, holding aggro and other members of your party do not know what to do at that very special time...again....and again...and again...and again.

I largely agree with the sentiment of your post. PUGing ain't always easy. People need to manage their own expectations. If one finds that the group is not for them, it's probably best to drop group compared to potentially stirring up drama.

One should conform to the rules of the role they select. If you want to be a dps, then dps. If you want to be a tank, then your job is support. Just because veteran dungeons are relatively easy compared to competitive content does not change the nature of the role. I don't care if you're fighting a wolf in overland or hardmode Rhakkat, it doesn't change the fact that a tank's job is support.

If you believe that something as simple as Pierce Armor has little or no value to the group on the whole, you are simply wrong. It only takes a couple of buffs to enable your dps to far surpass what you can potentially crank out as a tank, and this is fact, not speculation. If you're cranking out more dps as a tank relative to the dps increase of running support skills/gear, then you are a dps, not a tank. Any build can put on Inner Fire and some sort of ward or self-heal and hold aggro. But if you think the tank's job is little more than holding aggro, you do not understand the role.

If you don't intend to conform to your role, then pick a different one. If you don't intend to do that either, then you don't belong in group content. One does not simply jump into a group dungeon and then not do their job. I would sooner see you leave, or not join up at all, if you are going to have this kind of mentality. Is it necessary to have a tank in veteran dungeons? For most of them, no, you can take in 3 dps in lieu of a support role. But to join a group as a tank, and then do nothing to support your group? Might as well have a 3rd real dps than an arrogant meat shield who will do nothing but stand there.

Narrowminded view is narrowminded. Support can be provided in a number of different ways. We don't have the entire story in the OP, just that the tank wasn't using Piercing Armor. What if they were using Repentence/Shards so healer didn't have to? That would be classified support, wouldn't it? What if they were using Warhorn? Using Ebon/Alkosh? Where do you cut the line on how much support someone needs to use before it meets YOUR criteria of "his role is support"? Do you hold this high a standard for all PUG tanks?

Seriously, this type of mentality is terrible to have, especially for PUG groups.

Let's see if I understand you correctly.

To summarize my previous post: I believe that everyone in the group should do their job. If a tank is not providing support, they are not doing their job.

So not only did I not criticize the OP, but I also made no claims to suggest that other types of support are "not good enough." And as Destruent pointed out, said tank could have used Pierce Armor in addition to any number of support buffs.

If you want to get specific about Pierce Armor, I said: "If you believe that something as simple as Pierce Armor has little or no value to the group on the whole, you are simply wrong." Do you believe Pierce Armor has no value? If so, I say you're wrong. It's value is easily measurable.

What game are you playing in which asking for a tank to provide support is considered a "high standard" of tanking? You are literally putting words into my mouth, and I shame you for it. If I enter a PUG with a tank that uses only Inner Fire and just stands there, I would rather have literally any other role to replace him/her. I would much rather have my healer put on Inner Fire and pull in a third dps. That individual is trying to do group content but is doing nothing for their group.

And you are ASSUMING the tank was just standing there using inner fire and nothing else. Also, you act as though it is impossible to replicate the debuffs that Pierce Armor provides; I do it all the time with my NB and just throwing on Piercing Mark. Is it easier for the Tank to do it? Yes but it isn't outright mandatory either, as you are assuming it is. Shame me for assuming I don't understand the value of Pierce Armor, which is another assumption you are wrong on btw, but the fact of the matter is this.

In group content, it is the job of the GROUP to get thru the content, not just 1 person.

Yeah, duh. Of course it's easy to replicate some buffs/debuffs. What's your deal, anyway? I said IF the tank is just standing there using only Inner Fire. Forget your specific scenario. I made a general statement. Tanking is a support role. If you aren't prepared to provide some kind of support, then you shouldn't tank. It's not a difficult concept. Quit taking things out of context.

And yeah, it is the group's job to complete group content. It's also the individual's job to carry their own weight, at least. In a run with guildmates or friends, we're all prepared to pick up the slack if one of our group members is a little undergeared or whatever. If you join a PUG with zero intention of at least trying to pull your weight, then maybe you shouldn't be joining PUGs.

Support is a role EVERYONE should participate in equally is what I'm trying to get across here. It's not solely the Tank/Healers role to do, despite what everyone seems to believe. The tank might not have been doing his utmost to be supportive but again, we aren't aware of the full story either, such as what other forms of support he might have been offering. The tank was holding aggro so it's not like they were a 2h/bow wielding DPS disguised as a Tank for a quicker queue time so it's not as though they weren't trying to hinder the group.

Autolycus wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

cbaudersub17_ESO wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

cbaudersub17_ESO wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Wow.

After nine pages of this, I am trying to figure out what we learned. People seem to have very specific and nuanced notions of what a tank "must" provide to the group beyond the basic definition of tanking. We are getting lost in the details here.

For basic Pugging, I tend to agree with @Silver_Strider

If the tank is holding aggro on big threats, that's all I care about.
If the healer is keeping everyone alive, that's all I care about.
Absolutely EVERYTHING else at that point is a bonus.

But that is not the REAL issue here. The real issue is ATTITUDE. A tank was asked by the group to provide a bit more utility and he responded very negatively.

But this can go both ways.

You can also have a group member DEMAND that your role run a certain skill and rage quit if you don't adjust your whole build to accommodate them. The details of "which skill" and what role should do what (beyond the basic definition of each role) are unimportant. The real issue is communication and kindness.

I tend to fulfill most "can you slot X skill" requests if they are reasonable and I can fit the skill in without compromising something that is "role critical" in my build. I will also suggest a certain role slot something different if I see a weakness in our group's composition that can be easily fixed by swapping one skill. But these are requests not demands and this dynamic only applies to PUG groups.

If you read the OP (and the OP'ster's clarifying comments of the situation), slotting Pierce Armor would not have made a bit of difference. If I am that tank AND the exchange of which taunt I should use happens AND it has absolutely nothing to do with beating the objective, I would consider dropping group, too. Think Dranos Valedor in Cradle of Shadows, holding aggro and other members of your party do not know what to do at that very special time...again....and again...and again...and again.

I largely agree with the sentiment of your post. PUGing ain't always easy. People need to manage their own expectations. If one finds that the group is not for them, it's probably best to drop group compared to potentially stirring up drama.

One should conform to the rules of the role they select. If you want to be a dps, then dps. If you want to be a tank, then your job is support. Just because veteran dungeons are relatively easy compared to competitive content does not change the nature of the role. I don't care if you're fighting a wolf in overland or hardmode Rhakkat, it doesn't change the fact that a tank's job is support.

If you believe that something as simple as Pierce Armor has little or no value to the group on the whole, you are simply wrong. It only takes a couple of buffs to enable your dps to far surpass what you can potentially crank out as a tank, and this is fact, not speculation. If you're cranking out more dps as a tank relative to the dps increase of running support skills/gear, then you are a dps, not a tank. Any build can put on Inner Fire and some sort of ward or self-heal and hold aggro. But if you think the tank's job is little more than holding aggro, you do not understand the role.

If you don't intend to conform to your role, then pick a different one. If you don't intend to do that either, then you don't belong in group content. One does not simply jump into a group dungeon and then not do their job. I would sooner see you leave, or not join up at all, if you are going to have this kind of mentality. Is it necessary to have a tank in veteran dungeons? For most of them, no, you can take in 3 dps in lieu of a support role. But to join a group as a tank, and then do nothing to support your group? Might as well have a 3rd real dps than an arrogant meat shield who will do nothing but stand there.

...and you presume that those that would challenge the idea that a tank MUST be race W, class X, wear armor Y, and slot Z abilities beside taking and managing aggro provide no additional support to the group.

...if you believe Pierce Armor would have made a difference in the situation that this thread was predicated, you clearly did not read the OP or any of the OP'ster's clarifying comments.

...your 'fact' is NOT true for all groups and situations. Crap DPS buffed can still be crap.

A PUG group is not going to form then magically dominate the leaderboards. Defining 99% of the game because of what may or is believed to be required for 1% of the game is just a tad disingenuous.

Um... what? You are just making stuff up. I didn't say any of that. I said the tank should do their job, and their job is support. For someone who claims I "didn't read the OP" (and btw, I didn't criticize the OP), you sure seem to have difficulties reading my post for what it actually says.

I never have and never will presume to tell anyone that metagaming and min/maxing are necessary for vet dungeons. That's ridiculous, and those are your words, not mine. This isn't about competitive content. So let's try to stay on topic, okay?

P.S.
1. There are no leaderboards for vet dungeons.
2. Buffed "crap" dps is still better than unbuffed "crap" dps.

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

cbaudersub17_ESO wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Wow.

After nine pages of this, I am trying to figure out what we learned. People seem to have very specific and nuanced notions of what a tank "must" provide to the group beyond the basic definition of tanking. We are getting lost in the details here.

For basic Pugging, I tend to agree with @Silver_Strider

If the tank is holding aggro on big threats, that's all I care about.
If the healer is keeping everyone alive, that's all I care about.
Absolutely EVERYTHING else at that point is a bonus.

But that is not the REAL issue here. The real issue is ATTITUDE. A tank was asked by the group to provide a bit more utility and he responded very negatively.

But this can go both ways.

You can also have a group member DEMAND that your role run a certain skill and rage quit if you don't adjust your whole build to accommodate them. The details of "which skill" and what role should do what (beyond the basic definition of each role) are unimportant. The real issue is communication and kindness.

I tend to fulfill most "can you slot X skill" requests if they are reasonable and I can fit the skill in without compromising something that is "role critical" in my build. I will also suggest a certain role slot something different if I see a weakness in our group's composition that can be easily fixed by swapping one skill. But these are requests not demands and this dynamic only applies to PUG groups.

If you read the OP (and the OP'ster's clarifying comments of the situation), slotting Pierce Armor would not have made a bit of difference. If I am that tank AND the exchange of which taunt I should use happens AND it has absolutely nothing to do with beating the objective, I would consider dropping group, too. Think Dranos Valedor in Cradle of Shadows, holding aggro and other members of your party do not know what to do at that very special time...again....and again...and again...and again.

I largely agree with the sentiment of your post. PUGing ain't always easy. People need to manage their own expectations. If one finds that the group is not for them, it's probably best to drop group compared to potentially stirring up drama.

One should conform to the rules of the role they select. If you want to be a dps, then dps. If you want to be a tank, then your job is support. Just because veteran dungeons are relatively easy compared to competitive content does not change the nature of the role. I don't care if you're fighting a wolf in overland or hardmode Rhakkat, it doesn't change the fact that a tank's job is support.

If you believe that something as simple as Pierce Armor has little or no value to the group on the whole, you are simply wrong. It only takes a couple of buffs to enable your dps to far surpass what you can potentially crank out as a tank, and this is fact, not speculation. If you're cranking out more dps as a tank relative to the dps increase of running support skills/gear, then you are a dps, not a tank. Any build can put on Inner Fire and some sort of ward or self-heal and hold aggro. But if you think the tank's job is little more than holding aggro, you do not understand the role.

If you don't intend to conform to your role, then pick a different one. If you don't intend to do that either, then you don't belong in group content. One does not simply jump into a group dungeon and then not do their job. I would sooner see you leave, or not join up at all, if you are going to have this kind of mentality. Is it necessary to have a tank in veteran dungeons? For most of them, no, you can take in 3 dps in lieu of a support role. But to join a group as a tank, and then do nothing to support your group? Might as well have a 3rd real dps than an arrogant meat shield who will do nothing but stand there.

Narrowminded view is narrowminded. Support can be provided in a number of different ways. We don't have the entire story in the OP, just that the tank wasn't using Piercing Armor. What if they were using Repentence/Shards so healer didn't have to? That would be classified support, wouldn't it? What if they were using Warhorn? Using Ebon/Alkosh? Where do you cut the line on how much support someone needs to use before it meets YOUR criteria of "his role is support"? Do you hold this high a standard for all PUG tanks?

Seriously, this type of mentality is terrible to have, especially for PUG groups.

Let's see if I understand you correctly.

To summarize my previous post: I believe that everyone in the group should do their job. If a tank is not providing support, they are not doing their job.

So not only did I not criticize the OP, but I also made no claims to suggest that other types of support are "not good enough." And as Destruent pointed out, said tank could have used Pierce Armor in addition to any number of support buffs.

If you want to get specific about Pierce Armor, I said: "If you believe that something as simple as Pierce Armor has little or no value to the group on the whole, you are simply wrong." Do you believe Pierce Armor has no value? If so, I say you're wrong. It's value is easily measurable.

What game are you playing in which asking for a tank to provide support is considered a "high standard" of tanking? You are literally putting words into my mouth, and I shame you for it. If I enter a PUG with a tank that uses only Inner Fire and just stands there, I would rather have literally any other role to replace him/her. I would much rather have my healer put on Inner Fire and pull in a third dps. That individual is trying to do group content but is doing nothing for their group.

And you are ASSUMING the tank was just standing there using inner fire and nothing else. Also, you act as though it is impossible to replicate the debuffs that Pierce Armor provides; I do it all the time with my NB and just throwing on Piercing Mark. Is it easier for the Tank to do it? Yes but it isn't outright mandatory either, as you are assuming it is. Shame me for assuming I don't understand the value of Pierce Armor, which is another assumption you are wrong on btw, but the fact of the matter is this.

In group content, it is the job of the GROUP to get thru the content, not just 1 person.

Yeah, duh. Of course it's easy to replicate some buffs/debuffs. What's your deal, anyway? I said IF the tank is just standing there using only Inner Fire. Forget your specific scenario. I made a general statement. Tanking is a support role. If you aren't prepared to provide some kind of support, then you shouldn't tank. It's not a difficult concept. Quit taking things out of context.

And yeah, it is the group's job to complete group content. It's also the individual's job to carry their own weight, at least. In a run with guildmates or friends, we're all prepared to pick up the slack if one of our group members is a little undergeared or whatever. If you join a PUG with zero intention of at least trying to pull your weight, then maybe you shouldn't be joining PUGs.

Support is a role EVERYONE should participate in equally is what I'm trying to get across here. It's not solely the Tank/Healers role to do, despite what everyone seems to believe. The tank might not have been doing his utmost to be supportive but again, we aren't aware of the full story either, such as what other forms of support he might have been offering. The tank was holding aggro so it's not like they were a 2h/bow wielding DPS disguised as a Tank for a quicker queue time so it's not as though they weren't trying to hinder the group.

Sure, that's a fair point. But I was not talking about that specific tank. It was a general example, and should be treated as such. No reason to get on my case about "knowing the full story" when I wasn't even commenting on that story. My point is that a tank's job is support. I did not speak to the level of support (or lack thereof) provided by other roles. I have made very basic statements, and a number of people have pulled those statements out of context for no good reason. This isn't a discussion about min/maxing or competitive content.