Tank: "It's not my job to debuff." Yeah, right...

newtinmpls · November 2016

HeroOfNone wrote: »

I don't run what most guides run, since I typically have to bridge the gap between pugs that read some guide, PVP folks that don't have the gear, and new folks that have their first time in a dungeon. I love it though, spending an hour+ with a group trying hard to learn beats out the boring meta crowd that *** if we aren't in and out in under 15 minutes, like we're delivering a pizza. You can find a few examples on my youtube though.

Meanwhile, speaking about guides, I might put out another few discussing "adapting roles" since it seems to be an issue folks are running into again. That's the issue when most of these guides are having you memorize a method rather than teach a process.

High speed runs are just not fun for me, since I like playing with people and I like RP, so discussions of what we are going to do and how to do it are fun for me - in or out of character.

My gear is never going to be BiS since I don't do well with trial-flavored activities, never mind actual trials. I don't know how to explain it - I'm perfectly okay to run Spindelclutch I over and over (I kinda figure she's a deadra, she never stays dead for long) or the "rescue the civilians" in IC because these Make Sense To Me as recurring tasks that may never end.

I like the idea of "adapting to roles" because, weird or not there is probably a person who has done (or at least attempted) every role with every sort of character.

Frankly my favorite was "support dude" (see my post somewhere about leveling a Dunmer DK in IC with a pair of folks who were essentially complete on their own), but as someone pointed out - that's not an official "thing".

Destruent · November 2016

newtinmpls wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

Doesn't matter which class, all classes have the same tasks as a tank and you can use the same sets on all classes to help and support your group. I'm not playing DK-tank atm either...but still, gearing up is exactly the same like it is on DK. You just have to adjust your playstyle a little bit.

Since this is not true of any other role, it seems highly unlikely to be somehow miraculously true of tanking.

My Orsimer Stam Sorc has a very different build and very different equipment than my Altmer Mag Sorc Pet Build.

lol...nearly all DDs (if they go for max-DPS) use the same 3...5 magickasets or staminasets (ofc. it depends on if you are stam and magicka), same goes for tanking in optimized groups and for healing aswell.
I already tanked on all classes, and know what? Your tasks are exactly the same and you can use exactly the same gear on a stam-DK tank and a magicka-templar-tank. It just doesn't matter at all, bc your tasks are the same.
1. taunt boss
2. apply debuffs
3. use warhorns like crazy

noone cares about your tank-DPS in raids (for most dungeons you can basically tank with everything...it therefore doesn't matter at all what you do), bc supporting your group would definitely increase group-dps even more.
Tanking is a supportrole, your support will slightly change with the class (e.g. templartanks provides power of the light, dks provide igneous and so on), but you will always want to choose the sets with the best possible support. This is definetely not dependent on your class.

clv wrote: »

A tank without penetration is absolutely useless, a DPS could slot Harness and taunt and be just as effective

That's so true...but still some people won't belive it

runagate · November 2016

David Allan Coe wrote:

Tank this job and debuff it / I ain't working this role no more.

alainjbrennanb16_ESO · November 2016

i am in the view with a lot of my friends, that the you have to do this and that is now mute, tank nowadays not just have to tuant but also do damage, they have to become a battle tank, i dont use the skill you have said, thats because alot in my guild understand that to do things is just not down to you must have this and that, my tank runs in first when we are doing runs on mobs has mag detination on runs in tuants all to him holds all in place then the dd's run in and take them down, if your dd's have spell/weapon penitration its not needed, i could go on but what some say as you must have this gear or skills is not just wrong but no longer needed there is ways of doing things now since zos put in so many gear sets, if we take my mag dd dk i don't need buffs my my spell damage is 4300, crit 70% aND spell penetration is 3k i just need the healer to heal and the tank to tuant anything else is just a bonus

Asardes · November 2016

^punctuation needed to actually understand previous post.

newtinmpls · November 2016

Destruent wrote: »

Doesn't matter which class, all classes have the same tasks as a tank and you can use the same sets on all classes to help and support your group. I'm not playing DK-tank atm either...but still, gearing up is exactly the same like it is on DK. You just have to adjust your playstyle a little bit.

newtinmpls wrote: »

Since this is not true of any other role, it seems highly unlikely to be somehow miraculously true of tanking.

My Orsimer Stam Sorc has a very different build and very different equipment than my Altmer Mag Sorc Pet Build.

Destruent wrote: »

lol...nearly all DDs (if they go for max-DPS) use the same 3...5 magickasets or staminasets

There was more, but here is where you lost me.

I get that there are a limited number of Kewel BiS current "must have" meta builds. Many of them (such as Blazing Shield vs Stam-something vs Magicka-something) do have serious differences.

Toss in a player with actual creativity, and you get even more differences.

OTOH just as a challenge, I'd throw out - give me a:

Tank build, DPS build and a Healer

1-that can do most non-vet content WELL

and

wait for it

wait for it

2-Use NO class skills or class ultimates.

So that literally "anyone could do it".

.

Rev Rielle · November 2016

Honestly, if I meet a tank that knows how to taunt and interrupt & block the enemy's attacks when appropriate, I'm very happy with that. If they're also aware that continually kiting the enemy around and around for no reason just makes everything in the battle actually harder; I'm ecstatic.

SublimeSparo · November 2016

Flameheart wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

G0ku wrote: »

Tanks are useless in 4 man dungeons

Yep. I've heard that getting hit by Velidreth "corpulence" as 18K HP DD is totally survivable. And Xal-Nur the slaver does not even fear-break aggro-charge so why should anyone interrupt him? Not to mention the Overfiend and Abomination, whose cleave attacks are light as a feather

You don't need to mention just the DLC bosses, some of the "old/new" veteran instances in hardmode, will be "fun" too without a tank who has a taunt at least and is able to position a mob and adds. Debuffs and support might help too to burn down the 5m+ or even 7m+ healthbars, without blocking or rolldodging (or chainrez?) dozens of oneshot mechanics for 5min +.

...but maybe I am wrong and all PUGs consist of Flawless Conquerers nowadays :-)

Vet Wayrest sewers I *cough* try that with 4 stam dps. Easy peasy till final boss. Then it's a *** storm

KranderH · November 2016

If a tank doesn't use pierce armor... I just use piercing mark if needed and move on.

Sneaky-Snurr · November 2016

RazorCaltrops wrote: »

Ommamar wrote: »

Interesting perspective insisting something is someones job so they must play to the meta. Maybe think about your approach? As far as "jobs" go traditionally the tanks purpose has been to aggro mobs to absorb damage. That being said if you have an ability that does that and in addition debuffs a resistance it would make sense to help your group out by using it. Personally I try to use skills from both pools regardless of what build or role I am playing just because of the option it gives you. The off pool skill is usually weaker then someone who has the maxed out pool but since I am using it as a stop gap it doesn't need to be doing the max amount it is capable of.
Basically a pug is a gamble so would just keep that persons name as some one who you don't like to play with and move on.

Well said, pierce armor is fotm in PVE and one shotting players in PVP thanks to tremorscale and viper.

Nerf pierce armor. The time has come. Let unique tanks with dreugh king slayer/rattlecage burn the bosses. No more limitations !!!

Lol...

Speaking of Dreugh King Slayer set tank/dps, I'm already using one. I work my build around the principle which is 65% tanking & 35% DD. So at times, I can just concentrate more on one role than the other with that principle in mind in any situation.
I even go the extra mile to slot in vigour for myself (and for indirect heals for any group mates for that matter) just in case if the healer is somehow incapacitated from doing his/her job. I've tanked quite a fair amount of vet dungeon runs and trials to say that I am at least effective as a tank, that is to also say that I'm not the best tank either. Simply put, I'm just built strong enough to bring the whole group through one run without dying.

And all that is made easier with myself being a Templar. Just.. don't shout nerf on the forums. Enuff of de nurfs alreadyy! In conclusion, always adjust your build around your fundamental role but never sway too far out from it as well.

Asardes · November 2016

Dreugh King Slayer is a marginally useful set in general, and for a DK tank it's utterly useless, since that tank ought to be running ingenous weapons which grants both major and minor brutality - the latter from a class passive. And those are made available for the whole group. A tank's job is to provide utility. If he wants to add some DPS, a heavy crafted DD set combined with a 5 piece proc set and a monster set would probably work better.

I'm seriously pondering the deconning of all sets that grant major brutality/sorcery/prophecy/savagery as a 5th bonus, since I'm running low on storage space.

Destruent · November 2016

newtinmpls wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

Doesn't matter which class, all classes have the same tasks as a tank and you can use the same sets on all classes to help and support your group. I'm not playing DK-tank atm either...but still, gearing up is exactly the same like it is on DK. You just have to adjust your playstyle a little bit.

newtinmpls wrote: »

Since this is not true of any other role, it seems highly unlikely to be somehow miraculously true of tanking.

My Orsimer Stam Sorc has a very different build and very different equipment than my Altmer Mag Sorc Pet Build.

Destruent wrote: »

lol...nearly all DDs (if they go for max-DPS) use the same 3...5 magickasets or staminasets

There was more, but here is where you lost me.

I get that there are a limited number of Kewel BiS current "must have" meta builds. Many of them (such as Blazing Shield vs Stam-something vs Magicka-something) do have serious differences.

Toss in a player with actual creativity, and you get even more differences.

OTOH just as a challenge, I'd throw out - give me a:

Tank build, DPS build and a Healer

1-that can do most non-vet content WELL

and

wait for it

wait for it

2-Use NO class skills or class ultimates.

So that literally "anyone could do it".

.

easy....
You can do nonvet-content with anything.

Healer:
1st: rapid regen, combat prayer, healing springs/healing bubble, force siphon, magelight Ult: meteor
2nd: ele-drain, orbs, anythin, anything, entropy, magelight, Ulti: warhorn/healult

Mana-DPS:
1st: wall of elements, force pulse, entropy, impulse, magelight, shooting star
2nd: rearming trap, anything (doesn't matter), Ult: destrostaffultimate

for stam, just use any useful dw/bow-skills + trap and fill with fighters guild abilities

tank: pierce armor, heroic slash, absorb magic, immovable, warhorn or 1h/s-ultimate
fill with whatever you want...doesn't matter that much.

no idea, why you thought this could be difficult...

Personofsecrets · November 2016

- The tank wasn't carrying the group. There is no way to carry a group as a tank if you just keep the boss taunted. You just fulfill your most basic job.

wrong

WalksonGraves · November 2016

Personofsecrets wrote: »

- The tank wasn't carrying the group. There is no way to carry a group as a tank if you just keep the boss taunted. You just fulfill your most basic job.

wrong

Only time I "carry" a pug is when I'm constantly rezzing everyone because they cued for content they weren't ready for. Takes forever without proper dps, good healer is a bonus but the least important.

Mr_Apollo · November 2016

AtmaDarkwolf wrote: »

yup.

Don't sass the tank.

remember they are absolute kings of this game, and the simple fact one of them decided to grace us with their most godly presence, we should be handing them any and all valuable loot we find. Plus 500g per mob we kill.

Cuz' tanks.

I've had ENDLESS bad experiences with tanks, (to be fair i run a lot of dungeons and NOT 'most' are ***, but a LARGE percentage of tanks, compared to healers or dps, among their respective groups, feel they are doing us all a huge favor/service by tanking

I've had the op's story happen to me multiple times, have had tanks NOT taunt and have the above, have had tanks claim they have the best gear in the game (Example: tormentors set...lol) and claim they have 'three taunts' yet the bosses run all over the place, and kill everyone, have had tanks *** talk dps for dying to one shots BECAUSE the tank isn't keeping agro, and so on.

Its of course always YOUR fault if they die.

And yes, either you get a facefull of scathing venomous insults, or the said tank just drops group, if you DARE to suggest (EVEN in respectful NON insulting or pretentious manner)

And once more, just to be clear, i don't mean 'most' tanks, i simply mean, amount each the respective roles, the largest amount of people within each group with this attitude are tanks.

Ive not seen that "bad side" of tanks. I'm a tank myself and when learning the role, I actually had a LOT of support from both PUGs and guildies. Most tanks ive ran with were actually decent (did occurred with the sassy bad tanks though, even one who wouldn't stay OUT of werewolf form). It depends really I guess, or maybe I just had luck. But most tanks ive ran with are the complete opposite from yours

I do leave groups and will tell them a piece of my mind if DPS and healer offend me with their "Oh you should have more DPS" BS or "We need more dps tank"

daedalusAI · November 2016

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

daedalusAI wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

The only things that are needed for each role are for the Tank to hold Aggro and stay alive, the DPS to do damage and try not to stand where they shouldn't, and the healer to heal people and try not to stand where they shouldn't. People die sometimes but the only one who's job it is to actually stay alive is the Tank, if he's dying at all he's doing something wrong (which isn't to say I haven't died many times, I was being a bad Tank every time using sub-optimal flavor builds I thought might work and was disabused of that notion in the process of playing them, or just by being stupid and messing up). Everyone should try to stay alive of course, but if the Tank dies that's usually an automatic wipe moreso than with the other rolls, even the healer as long as the Tank has some ability to self-sustain.

I agree with what many others have said about the jobs of a tank with a long list of things to do, but that's for greatest possible effectiveness and that can often be boring to play, and if any game limits builds to a specific setup or else you're "doing it wrong" then that game has serious design issues. I have spent a great deal of time and effort devising different tanking builds, and the core of it is always to hold aggro and stay alive, I only feel like I'm failing if I fail at either of those tasks. That being said I'd never set foot in a hard mode Trial with a flavor build, that would be foolish. Maybe a few powers will be selected because they fit my style, but the rest are by necessity the standard things people expect the best Tanks to use, being optimal in this game usually means using cookie-cutter builds and that's just how it is.

You're not talking about a Hard Mode Trial though, or even a normal Trial, just a Dungeon. Unless the team is wiping (or someone isn't doing their job they assigned for themselves, like the DPS's are hitting like wet noodles, Tank not Taunting/dying a lot, or Healer not healing) there is no reason to ever criticize anyone for their build, if anything Dungeons are usually the place people go to test their builds and/or level up skills and skill lines they haven't used before. If they just aren't doing their job that's one thing, but there is absolutely zero reason to criticize any Tank so long as they're holding aggro and staying alive (of course excepting that they die last or die from being hit by an unbreakable CC or unavoidable attack that their team should be helping with and don't, you guys no the fights I mean, the Flesh Sculptor in ICP or the Atro on Kena in WGT, etc.).

Doing a PUG Dungeon run and holding it against people for being less than optimal is idiotic, it's a sandbox of experimentation and flavor builds and as long as people do their essential jobs then they don't need to be optimal. Speed running is for premade groups, PUGs take as long as they take and if it bothers you when they go long then that's your problem, no one else's. That said so long as you ask someone to do something differently and don't try to suggest they're doing something wrong for not being optimal, then that's fine, and only a jerk would take offense to that. This Tank the OP was talking about was right to say that wasn't his job and the OP was wrong for insisting it was, beyond that I can't comment on if he was being a good Tank or not without having been there. Not a big deal either way though, it was a bit rude to say someone's not doing their job just because they're not being perfect or using the most optimal setup but it's not some kind of serious unforgivable transgression, it's just something you shouldn't have done and hopefully won't again in the future.

I hope you realize ESO is a party game if you venture into group content.

If you only play solo I don't care if you run around naked in your underwear as a vampire with an empty bar and killing enemies with only light attacks with your resto staff - but the moment you step into a dungeon and you either don't do your job or only do the bare minimum I will point my finger at you and criticize you.

What do you mean with essential?
Essential as in taunting a mob as a tank and doing nothing else like the tank from the OP - or essential as this is ESO and buffs/debuffs are a huge part of party play and it's expected that you provide what you can(the only exception are new players which need to learn the game)?

I don't know if I can take you seriously when you agree with this thin-skinned tank from the OP who left after being pointed out he should to more than the bare minimum and even go so far as to put the blame on the OP for pointing that out.

Hey let's make a group for a vet dungeon when my now lvl 48 healer is higher: I will only heal with the essence drain resto staff passive and maybe throw a regeneration when you're < 15% hp.
Going by your logic that should suffice as doing my job.

You're entirely missing the point though, there's a difference between pulling your weight and being optimal, and as long as DPS's are doing decent damage (enough to clear any DPS checks and not get swarmed by adds), Healers are healing and Tanks are holding Aggro and staying alive, that's par for the course. If you want to do better than par then you need to optimize, but in the less challenging content of PUG Dungeons (compared to Trials or speedruns in either Dungeons or Trials) it's simply not necessary to be optimal as long as you're satisfactory.

And the fact is that satisfactory is all anyone needs to be for anything, but different content with different difficulty levels have different standards, and Dungeons can be managed just fine with any range of sub-optimal builds so long as the people using them are competent and know the fight. This is not a discussion about speedrunning Vet Hard Mode Trials, which have much higher standards and require maximally optimized builds for a player to be satisfactory. Suggesting relatively easy content should have the same standards as the hardest group content in the game is preposterous and laughable, and you need to l2p if you think otherwise.

If you want to set higher standards for your Dungeon runs then you're allowed to, but not when PUGing, that attitude belongs in premade groups and only premade groups. If they add Vet Hard Mode Trials to the group finder then sure that'd be different and even when PUGing you'd need to be fully optimized and should expect all others you get matched with to be also, but Dungeons are more about knowledge of mechanics than anything else and competent players don't need to be playing a superleet build to pull their weight just fine.

Are you honestly telling me that doing the bare minimum of your selected role is considered as pulling ones weight - but using 1 ability that debuffs a boss is considered optimal as in the ultimate theoycrafted build and thus impossible to demand in a PUG?

1 single ability more to press out of 12 abilities on 2 bars?

Zypheran · November 2016

Can somebody please post a link to these 'rules' for dungeons and trials that show the exact skills that everybody MUST have for these roles. I presume this link would also show the DPS a player MUST have in order to be eligible to use group finder . Oh, and I would be keen to see what it says about the minimum CP levels required for different dungeons.
A DPS should primarily do damage, a tank should primarily pull agro and a healer should primarily heal! Beyond that, all I've found are people's opinions on how best to play the game. Very valid opinions on what is optimal play style but no rules! Judging by the level of ire induced by non-compliance with these opinions, I can only assume that there must be a set of clear rules to which so many people are refusing to adhere.

newtinmpls · November 2016

Zypheran wrote: »

Can somebody please post a link to these 'rules' for dungeons and trials that show the exact skills that everybody MUST have for these roles. I presume this link would also show the DPS a player MUST have in order to eligible to use group finder . Oh, and I would be keen to what it says about the minimum CP levels required for different dungeons.
A DPS should primarily do damage, a tank should primarily pull agro and a healer should primarily heal! Beyond that, all I've found are peoples opinions on how best to play the game. Very valid opinions on what is optimal play style but no rules! Judging by the level of ire induced by non-compliance with these opinions, I can only assume that there must be a set of clear rules to which so many people are refusing to adhere.

don't know about skills.... but I got "notification" from one of my guilds that there will be mandatory equipment for trials. I'll try and track it down.

Zyrudin · November 2016

newtinmpls wrote: »

don't know about skills.... but I got "notification" from one of my guilds that there will be mandatory equipment for trials. I'll try and track it down.

newtinmpls · November 2016

I had been looking for a build for the basic roles that didn't use any class abilities but worked well.

Destruent wrote: »

easy....
You can do nonvet-content with anything.

Healer:
1st: rapid regen, combat prayer, healing springs/healing bubble, force siphon, magelight Ult: meteor
2nd: ele-drain, orbs, anythin, anything, entropy, magelight, Ulti: warhorn/healult

Mana-DPS:
1st: wall of elements, force pulse, entropy, impulse, magelight, shooting star
2nd: rearming trap, anything (doesn't matter), Ult: destrostaffultimate

for stam, just use any useful dw/bow-skills + trap and fill with fighters guild abilities

tank: pierce armor, heroic slash, absorb magic, immovable, warhorn or 1h/s-ultimate
fill with whatever you want...doesn't matter that much.

no idea, why you thought this could be difficult...

I thank you for your answer.

It doesn't really look like you are taking this seriously (and maybe you are the kind of player for whom this question could never be considered seriously - maybe you are just "too far away" from having to do actual work to get through non-vet content.

I still struggle with some of it.

Throwing "anything" on a bar, seems to indicate that it doesn't matter - and if that's the case, it's not going to be a useful build.

It seems especially weird to hear "doesn't matter" anywhere on a tank build after the intensity of this thread.

Destruent · November 2016

newtinmpls wrote: »

I had been looking for a build for the basic roles that didn't use any class abilities but worked well.

Destruent wrote: »

easy....
You can do nonvet-content with anything.

Healer:
1st: rapid regen, combat prayer, healing springs/healing bubble, force siphon, magelight Ult: meteor
2nd: ele-drain, orbs, anythin, anything, entropy, magelight, Ulti: warhorn/healult

Mana-DPS:
1st: wall of elements, force pulse, entropy, impulse, magelight, shooting star
2nd: rearming trap, anything (doesn't matter), Ult: destrostaffultimate

for stam, just use any useful dw/bow-skills + trap and fill with fighters guild abilities

tank: pierce armor, heroic slash, absorb magic, immovable, warhorn or 1h/s-ultimate
fill with whatever you want...doesn't matter that much.

no idea, why you thought this could be difficult...

I thank you for your answer.

It doesn't really look like you are taking this seriously (and maybe you are the kind of player for whom this question could never be considered seriously - maybe you are just "too far away" from having to do actual work to get through non-vet content.

I still struggle with some of it.

Throwing "anything" on a bar, seems to indicate that it doesn't matter - and if that's the case, it's not going to be a useful build.

It seems especially weird to hear "doesn't matter" anywhere on a tank build after the intensity of this thread.

This wasn't meant to be offensive, sry for that. At the free tank spots i just said it doesn't matter that much bc you have the most important things on your bar. A spot/debuff, debuff/ultireg-increase, passive decrease of blockcosts, armor buff. The rest can be filled with anything your group may need. But you should be able to fulfill your tankrole with those skills.
I didn't take it that seriously, bc you will always want to use class skills bc they open way more possibilities for upport, buffs and debuffs than nonclassskills could ever do.
Same for the DPS-slots, you should be able to do content without putting anything there, but it's ofc usefull to slot something which may help you. maybe harness magicka, blade cload or whatever to help you survive anything or mages guil/fightersguild skills to boost your stats. It's just not neccessary imo.

Woeler · November 2016

Some posts in this topic make khajiit cry.

Yolokin_Swagonborn · November 2016

Wow.

After nine pages of this, I am trying to figure out what we learned. People seem to have very specific and nuanced notions of what a tank "must" provide to the group beyond the basic definition of tanking. We are getting lost in the details here.

For basic Pugging, I tend to agree with @Silver_Strider

If the tank is holding aggro on big threats, that's all I care about.
If the healer is keeping everyone alive, that's all I care about.
Absolutely EVERYTHING else at that point is a bonus.

But that is not the REAL issue here. The real issue is ATTITUDE. A tank was asked by the group to provide a bit more utility and he responded very negatively.

But this can go both ways.

You can also have a group member DEMAND that your role run a certain skill and rage quit if you don't adjust your whole build to accommodate them. The details of "which skill" and what role should do what (beyond the basic definition of each role) are unimportant. The real issue is communication and kindness.

I tend to fulfill most "can you slot X skill" requests if they are reasonable and I can fit the skill in without compromising something that is "role critical" in my build. I will also suggest a certain role slot something different if I see a weakness in our group's composition that can be easily fixed by swapping one skill. But these are requests not demands and this dynamic only applies to PUG groups.

Autolycus · November 2016

Woeler wrote: »

Some posts in this topic make khajiit cry.

I'm right there with you. Lots of misinformation and ignorance on this one.

cbaudersub17_ESO · November 2016

I guess I just see a spectrum in all this:

First, there's the non-tank tank: this guy has zero taunts and checks the tank toggle. It can work in a lot of group content, but the ability to take and manage aggro (when one can since some mechanics ignore taunt) just is not there. The reality is that you do not really do your 'toggle' job, and it will ultimately limit which content you can successfully tank (unless you can one-man everything and can take the backlash from all the dead members of your group).

Second, there's the tank: this guy has a taunt and should be able to take and manage aggro. It really does not matter which, but Punture (or one of its morphs) is undoubtedly the easiest to get. Just doing your 'toggle' job may be enough and the content may take longer. Kind of depends on the content and the rest of the group. One reason for this is that a player might just be a getting started (purposefully kept NOT negative).

Third, there's the good-player tank: this guys meets all the prerequisites of a tank, but they will bring more to the group. Their generic build and usage will also offer some combination of DPS, healing other than self, and general group support utility; however, these function will take secondary status unless they directly benefit the primary responsibility...take and manage aggro. The better good-player tanks can and will adjust their build and skill load-out for the group and encounters (e.g., recognize that 'this' could really help the group succeed and slot it).

Fourth, there's the meta tank: this guy meets all the prerequisites of a good-player tank, although MAY show divergence from the better good-player tanks. After all, the meta is defined by other people, and it CAN change. If you do or don't do what others define as the meta, you may need to turn in your 'meta tank card'. From what I gathered recently, this means you are a DK (need Igneous Weapons; Unrelenting Grip/Choking Talons for trash mobs are the only acceptable morphs) , ensuring selection of and use of the Pierce Armor morph as taunt, ensuring selection of and use of Aggressive War Horn (to be safe, put on both bars because we would not want 'waste' your ultimate on something stupid), and making other choices to increase the frequency of casting Aggressive War Horn. Try to save room for Rapid Maneuver (or one of its morphs), as your slow butt in holding up the show. If you do not have room for Rapid Maneuver because you believe other skills provide benefit to your job (you are wrong, by the way), make potions that give you this speed boost.

Zypheran · November 2016

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Wow.

After nine pages of this, I am trying to figure out what we learned. People seem to have very specific and nuanced notions of what a tank "must" provide to the group beyond the basic definition of tanking. We are getting lost in the details here.

For basic Pugging, I tend to agree with @Silver_Strider

If the tank is holding aggro on big threats, that's all I care about.
If the healer is keeping everyone alive, that's all I care about.
Absolutely EVERYTHING else at that point is a bonus.

But that is not the REAL issue here. The real issue is ATTITUDE. A tank was asked by the group to provide a bit more utility and he responded very negatively.

But this can go both ways.

You can also have a group member DEMAND that your role run a certain skill and rage quit if you don't adjust your whole build to accommodate them. The details of "which skill" and what role should do what (beyond the basic definition of each role) are unimportant. The real issue is communication and kindness.

I tend to fulfill most "can you slot X skill" requests if they are reasonable and I can fit the skill in without compromising something that is "role critical" in my build. I will also suggest a certain role slot something different if I see a weakness in our group's composition that can be easily fixed by swapping one skill. But these are requests not demands and this dynamic only applies to PUG groups.

Yes, yes and double yes. You're spot on with regards to attitude. All I hear when I read a lot of these posts is "Look at me, I'm great, I'm the best player ever and I'm right and you're wrong" - must be read in a 5yr old girls voice and punctuated by blowing a raspberry!!

cbaudersub17_ESO · November 2016

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Wow.

After nine pages of this, I am trying to figure out what we learned. People seem to have very specific and nuanced notions of what a tank "must" provide to the group beyond the basic definition of tanking. We are getting lost in the details here.

For basic Pugging, I tend to agree with @Silver_Strider

If the tank is holding aggro on big threats, that's all I care about.
If the healer is keeping everyone alive, that's all I care about.
Absolutely EVERYTHING else at that point is a bonus.

But that is not the REAL issue here. The real issue is ATTITUDE. A tank was asked by the group to provide a bit more utility and he responded very negatively.

But this can go both ways.

You can also have a group member DEMAND that your role run a certain skill and rage quit if you don't adjust your whole build to accommodate them. The details of "which skill" and what role should do what (beyond the basic definition of each role) are unimportant. The real issue is communication and kindness.

I tend to fulfill most "can you slot X skill" requests if they are reasonable and I can fit the skill in without compromising something that is "role critical" in my build. I will also suggest a certain role slot something different if I see a weakness in our group's composition that can be easily fixed by swapping one skill. But these are requests not demands and this dynamic only applies to PUG groups.

If you read the OP (and the OP'ster's clarifying comments of the situation), slotting Pierce Armor would not have made a bit of difference. If I am that tank AND the exchange of which taunt I should use happens AND it has absolutely nothing to do with beating the objective, I would consider dropping group, too. Think Dranos Valedor in Cradle of Shadows, holding aggro and other members of your party do not know what to do at that very special time...again....and again...and again...and again.

I largely agree with the sentiment of your post. PUGing ain't always easy. People need to manage their own expectations. If one finds that the group is not for them, it's probably best to drop group compared to potentially stirring up drama.

Autolycus · November 2016

cbaudersub17_ESO wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Wow.

After nine pages of this, I am trying to figure out what we learned. People seem to have very specific and nuanced notions of what a tank "must" provide to the group beyond the basic definition of tanking. We are getting lost in the details here.

For basic Pugging, I tend to agree with @Silver_Strider

If the tank is holding aggro on big threats, that's all I care about.
If the healer is keeping everyone alive, that's all I care about.
Absolutely EVERYTHING else at that point is a bonus.

But that is not the REAL issue here. The real issue is ATTITUDE. A tank was asked by the group to provide a bit more utility and he responded very negatively.

But this can go both ways.

You can also have a group member DEMAND that your role run a certain skill and rage quit if you don't adjust your whole build to accommodate them. The details of "which skill" and what role should do what (beyond the basic definition of each role) are unimportant. The real issue is communication and kindness.

I tend to fulfill most "can you slot X skill" requests if they are reasonable and I can fit the skill in without compromising something that is "role critical" in my build. I will also suggest a certain role slot something different if I see a weakness in our group's composition that can be easily fixed by swapping one skill. But these are requests not demands and this dynamic only applies to PUG groups.

If you read the OP (and the OP'ster's clarifying comments of the situation), slotting Pierce Armor would not have made a bit of difference. If I am that tank AND the exchange of which taunt I should use happens AND it has absolutely nothing to do with beating the objective, I would consider dropping group, too. Think Dranos Valedor in Cradle of Shadows, holding aggro and other members of your party do not know what to do at that very special time...again....and again...and again...and again.

I largely agree with the sentiment of your post. PUGing ain't always easy. People need to manage their own expectations. If one finds that the group is not for them, it's probably best to drop group compared to potentially stirring up drama.

One should conform to the rules of the role they select. If you want to be a dps, then dps. If you want to be a tank, then your job is support. Just because veteran dungeons are relatively easy compared to competitive content does not change the nature of the role. I don't care if you're fighting a wolf in overland or hardmode Rhakkat, it doesn't change the fact that a tank's job is support.

If you believe that something as simple as Pierce Armor has little or no value to the group on the whole, you are simply wrong. It only takes a couple of buffs to enable your dps to far surpass what you can potentially crank out as a tank, and this is fact, not speculation. If you're cranking out more dps as a tank relative to the dps increase of running support skills/gear, then you are a dps, not a tank. Any build can put on Inner Fire and some sort of ward or self-heal and hold aggro. But if you think the tank's job is little more than holding aggro, you do not understand the role.

If you don't intend to conform to your role, then pick a different one. If you don't intend to do that either, then you don't belong in group content. One does not simply jump into a group dungeon and then not do their job. I would sooner see you leave, or not join up at all, if you are going to have this kind of mentality. Is it necessary to have a tank in veteran dungeons? For most of them, no, you can take in 3 dps in lieu of a support role. But to join a group as a tank, and then do nothing to support your group? Might as well have a 3rd real dps than an arrogant meat shield who will do nothing but stand there.

Zypheran · November 2016

'conform to your role' or 'conform to MY view of your role'
Also, where are these 'rules of the role'??

WalksonGraves · November 2016

Zypheran wrote: »

'conform to your role' or 'conform to MY view of your role'
Also, where are these 'rules of the role'??

In the wisdom of the elders