WalksonGraves wrote: »

Tonnopesce wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

Tonnopesce wrote: »

If i see a 50k healt tank i roll my eyes regardess the use of debuffs or not.

You realize how stupid that sounds? Hp only takes away from resource pools. Most tank abilities only scale in damage so if you have resource management handled you can use hp as a dump stat. Don't assume you know every build.

And resource pools don't matter?! Stamina for blocking. Max stamina governs how much stamina is returned by Helping Hands for DKs. But the resource that too many tanks overlook is magicka: chains, talons, etc. My DK tank runs with 28K magicka. What that means is that I can chain a lot of enemies. It means I can liberally cast Deep Breath for AoE interrupts. It means that I can spam Igneous, which allows me to sustain stamina with zero help from the healer, allows me to stay alive even if the healer is down (I can basically eat damage equivalent to my shield with every cast, and I can do a lot of casts because of a deep magicka pool, and that gives me better survivability than a tank with a large static health pool), and Igneous spam also keeps those around the tank alive too.

I run with robust resource pools--28K magicka, 19K stamina, and 30K health--which means that I can provide a lot of utility without any hand-holding from the healer. Tanks who cripple their resource pools not only lack the resources to be useful, but also require more resource sustain help from the healer.

Tanking in ESO is a resource game. You can be an adequate tank with an oversized health pool. But you can't be a good tank.

Your mistake is thinking tank = dk. Dks have *** resource management.

Agree that tanks are not only DK's but as i read the only tank that benefits from a large health pool are templars But what group support skills this type of tank have?
As a dk i can give a lot of buffs/debuffs and with a single warhorn cast i can refill my resource pool entirely while helping the whole group.
A mag Templar tank can stay alive ok but then?

NB tanks have far better resource generation, max hp and tri stat food give you deep enough pools to hold aggro and keep buff/debuffs up.
A lot of skills useful to tanks scale with max hp, so does the effectiveness of dr.

Not the answer i was searching.

Pierce Armor costs 1.7K stamina
Inner Fire costs 4.1K magicka (almost 3x as expensive)
The guy had 48K health so he had probably 50+ points there, plus set bonuses and health glyphs on everything to reach that number. That leaves 14 points for his magicka pool, which should be around 10-12K. Stamina a bit lower, 9.5-10K.
Using 1.7 out of 10 is way better than 4 out of 12, regardless of any regeneration. On that boss there's ample time to weave heavy attacks and recoup that stamina. And 48K health is overkill for any content in this game. 30K suffices for vet trials, and 25-27K for veteran dungeons and normal trials. It might look impressive, but the fact is that anything that hits over 30K is probably a scripted one shot anyway and should be roll dodged (sometimes with a break snare ex. Votary of Velidreth), which takes stamina.

Ransack is a good skill only for PvP. In PvE the resistance bonus should be granted by the healer trough frequent use of Combat Prayer. And that grant equivalent spell resistance and, most importantly 8% more damage that's very useful to DDs. In static So pierce armor should be a tank's main taunt, the one that's used for 95% of the fights. The other one should be used sparingly, because it's so expensive. I only use it for a handful of fights, the ones where the boss moves a lot, where there are adds that spawn far and have to be brought and AoEd etc. The only boss where it's necessary in FG2 is the last one, which has to be stood far from for longer than 15s because if the black circles on the ground. An I only need to use that taunt once per phase, since I make sure to melee taunt her just before I break contact due to the expanding circles. In the Bandu fight the tank needs to taunt the ghost adds while they are mobile, and debuff one when they chain down one player. Otherwise, if the rest of the group doesn't have good DPS, it's impossible to kill that add fast enough to free the chained player. I've seen that happen plenty of times, especially when one of the DDs gets caught.

Also pierce armor is not the only debuff a tank should use on bosses and bigger mobs. The other one is heroic slash, that applies 15% damage reduction and a snares. It also grants minor heroism, which regenerates ultimate - a tank that doesn't generate utilmate effectively is not that useful for the group. The effect applies regardless of immunity messages displayed on screen, because that message is about the snare effect, that of course does not affect bosses; the damage reduction applies though. A finer point is the crusher enchantment on weapon, that substracts another 1.6K resistance or so. You can proc that enchantments from any weapon attack, including heavy, light and any weapon skill, but not from class or guild skills.

Smashington357 wrote: »

Honestly if you couldn't burn the boss without that minor debuff and had to make a forum post about this i feel sorry for your dps. You're talking about Fungal Grotto thats faceroll easy get over it. Most tanks use the morph that buff their physical resistance and most DPS i run with are magika so i'm not even sure how it helps you.

rofl - You must be the tank this thread is about. Totally competent post!

*not*

I have mixed feelings about this thread as i'm enjoying my tank quite a lot but i can only use her when I have friends online to do pledges with because it's still a learnign process for me even though i have 561CP i got those on a magsorc dps .

Not defending the tank OP is referring too but i do understand he/she left the group if this "do your job" message was send in public chat and to be fair the dps's might have been a bigger problem if you stranded on the chain boss in fungul grotto then the tank not debuffing her imo.

off topic: Is 32k health for a stam dk tank too low?
I use ebon + hist bark (consider switching to tavas but not sure about resist loss) with engine guardian.

edit: nvm @asardes already answered it while i was typing this.

pattyLtd wrote: »

off topic: Is 32k health for a stam dk tank too low?
I use ebon + hist bark (consider switching to tavas but not sure about resist loss) with engine guardian.

32K HP is fine. And yes, try to switch to Tavas since it's one of the best tank sets out there due to the Ultimate generation.

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Honestly I run Ransack on my tank, but only because with it I reach armorcap with monster helms.

Armor cap is overrated. No tank needs armor cap, and this is especially true after Thieves Guild. The CP revamp in that update means that there is now so much mitigation from the red tree that tanks can be well below the armor cap and be just fine. Furthermore, the most taxing trial--vMoL--has mechanics that will completely ignore your armor rating and kill you if you fail the mechanic.

The result of all this is that nobody cares about reaching the armor cap any more. You don't need it for any content in the game, and the opportunity cost of reaching the armor cap in terms of gear and skill choices is too high to justify the negligible benefit.

@code65536

So what would you say is around the armor to shoot for while going all in on hardy and elemental defender? I'm just curious. I like second opinions.

I'm just talking general ballpark, 30 K, 31 K, what? What's the armor point where you should start going all in on Hardy and Elemental Defender?

Don't care about your resistances at all, with 5 heavy you will always have enough. Just use sets which benefit your group the most. for example Alkosh, Eben armory, lunar bastion, brands of imperium, tava and so on...just whatever your group needs
For CP just put some points in healing received (i use 30 there) and put the rest into ele-defender, hardy and a little bit into thick skinned. Maybe swap them around depending on the content.

PS: woeler made a nice video about tanking, where he explains different setups/sets/skills/whatever.

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Honestly I run Ransack on my tank, but only because with it I reach armorcap with monster helms.

Armor cap is overrated. No tank needs armor cap, and this is especially true after Thieves Guild. The CP revamp in that update means that there is now so much mitigation from the red tree that tanks can be well below the armor cap and be just fine. Furthermore, the most taxing trial--vMoL--has mechanics that will completely ignore your armor rating and kill you if you fail the mechanic.

The result of all this is that nobody cares about reaching the armor cap any more. You don't need it for any content in the game, and the opportunity cost of reaching the armor cap in terms of gear and skill choices is too high to justify the negligible benefit.

@code65536

So what would you say is around the armor to shoot for while going all in on hardy and elemental defender? I'm just curious. I like second opinions.

I'm just talking general ballpark, 30 K, 31 K, what? What's the armor point where you should start going all in on Hardy and Elemental Defender?

Don't care about your resistances at all, with 5 heavy you will always have enough. Just use sets which benefit your group the most. for example Alkosh, Eben armory, lunar bastion, brands of imperium, tava and so on...just whatever your group needs
For CP just put some points in healing received (i use 30 there) and put the rest into ele-defender, hardy and a little bit into thick skinned. Maybe swap them around depending on the content.

PS: woeler made a nice video about tanking, where he explains different setups/sets/skills/whatever.

Exept I dont use those sets because my build is not exactly orthodox. I have around 30 K resistances and just switched to full Hardy/Ele defend and it did pretty well, so that's what I'm goin' with. I just wanted a ballpark.

PS: I dont trust Woeler's opinion for crap. Besides, his video is about DK tanking. Mine isn't a DK.

Doesn't matter which class, all classes have the same tasks as a tank and you can use the same sets on all classes to help and support your group. I'm not playing DK-tank atm either...but still, gearing up is exactly the same like it is on DK. You just have to adjust your playstyle a little bit.

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Honestly I run Ransack on my tank, but only because with it I reach armorcap with monster helms.

Armor cap is overrated. No tank needs armor cap, and this is especially true after Thieves Guild. The CP revamp in that update means that there is now so much mitigation from the red tree that tanks can be well below the armor cap and be just fine. Furthermore, the most taxing trial--vMoL--has mechanics that will completely ignore your armor rating and kill you if you fail the mechanic.

The result of all this is that nobody cares about reaching the armor cap any more. You don't need it for any content in the game, and the opportunity cost of reaching the armor cap in terms of gear and skill choices is too high to justify the negligible benefit.

@code65536

So what would you say is around the armor to shoot for while going all in on hardy and elemental defender? I'm just curious. I like second opinions.

I'm just talking general ballpark, 30 K, 31 K, what? What's the armor point where you should start going all in on Hardy and Elemental Defender?

Don't care about your resistances at all, with 5 heavy you will always have enough. Just use sets which benefit your group the most. for example Alkosh, Eben armory, lunar bastion, brands of imperium, tava and so on...just whatever your group needs
For CP just put some points in healing received (i use 30 there) and put the rest into ele-defender, hardy and a little bit into thick skinned. Maybe swap them around depending on the content.

PS: woeler made a nice video about tanking, where he explains different setups/sets/skills/whatever.

Exept I dont use those sets because my build is not exactly orthodox. I have around 30 K resistances and just switched to full Hardy/Ele defend and it did pretty well, so that's what I'm goin' with. I just wanted a ballpark.

PS: I dont trust Woeler's opinion for crap. Besides, his video is about DK tanking. Mine isn't a DK.

Doesn't matter which class, all classes have the same tasks as a tank and you can use the same sets on all classes to help and support your group. I'm not playing DK-tank atm either...but still, gearing up is exactly the same like it is on DK. You just have to adjust your playstyle a little bit.

Thanks, but no thanks. I asked an extremely specific question. if you'd like to answer that, great. If you'd like to reccomend I run an entirely new build because meta, no. Just dont.

Oh, i don't want to dictate you a build or whatever, just wear what benefits your group the most on this specific encounter. Good tanks will usually swap gear for different bosses to maximize their effectiveness. There are also more usefull sets than those i mentioned. It all depends on what you and your group need. I also don't really understand this "tank-meta-blabla"...there's no real meta for tanking, there are just usefull and useless sets. Why should i (or anyone) use a set which doesn't benefit the group at all?

Oh, and there is no reason to buff your resistances through CP, hardy and ele defender are a lot stronger...if that was your question...

Tanking seems to have some pretty big issues.

For one thing they are rare, don't believe me? Pick any city centre at random and count em up, I guarantee it's not the 25 percent you would need to reduce the group finder Queues.

I use to do it but it gets tiresome when a pure tank with nearly 50000 health, 1200 wd and maxed out resistances is doing more damage than both dps combined, still haven't figure that one out, yet still gets the blame for a fail despite keeping bosses taunted, aggroed and throwing out buffs and debuffs left right and centre.

Also you need to be willing to be a buff debuff spamming punching bag and I just got bored, that's the truth, it was dull. Real life has quite enough of being on the receiving end of things without doing the same thing in a game

I saw a lot of people claiming that the blazing shield full health build tank is "amazing". At 60K health, that blazing shield will absorb up to 31% of max HP, which is 18.6K. Half of that is dished out as damage to enemies in melee range when that shield expires, so we are looking at 9.3K base damage. Each enemy will increase the shield strength by 4%. Assuming there are 10 enemies around (ex. very dense trash packs), that means an increase of 40% on both shield and reflected damage. With 100 points in bastion, which is unlikely because a tank needs more points in hardy, elemental defender & thick skinned, both shield strenght and damage is increased a further 25%. So an extra 65% shield strength and damage. So the maximum value for shield when surrounded by 10 enemies is 30.1K, with 15K that can be dished out as damage every 6 seconds if the tank actually takes that amount of damage during the shield's duration. Let's say it expires in 2 seconds, after the mobs hit for 6K five times, that will be about 7.5K DPS up front damage, and something like 4-5K DPS once the mobs resistance is taken into account. The actual value will be actually lower, since there might not be than many adds around, or they don't do that much damage to break it and make it blow up. It's not negligible, but does not really amount to much because mobs in dungeons have 50-100K health, sometimes 400K health if we are talking about certain elite mobs in DLC veteran dungeons. Bosses have anywhere from 4-7M health and few of them actually have that many adds, to increase the shield's strength to the theoretical value.

By comparison, a fully charged heavy attack from my full stamina DK tank can hit for 4.5K and a heroic slash for 6K. My crit is around 25% and I have a few points in precise strikes. And I can do that combo relentlessly, every second or so, only stopping when the boss does a heavy attack. So the actual DPS will be something like ~5.5K, higher than the potential reflected damage from a blazing shield. By that time I would have generated enough ultimate to pump another war horn or drop a standard of might on the boss and his adds - I can average one of those every 50s in intense fights. The former will of course boost group DPS by far more than a paltry 5K. A tank's ultimates won't do much damage, because usually the damage scales of maximum stamina/magicka and weapon/spell damage. A tank has to have balanced resource pools and regeneration, not spell/weapon damage. So if he drops a solar prison, standard of might, veil of blades or suppression field he will do it primarily for the added utility, and not actual damage. And in really hard fights, especially those who are dynamic, war horn beats every of the above in terms of sheer utility.

A blazing shield build will be more effective in trolling large zergs of inexperienced players in PvP than dishing out damage in PvE dungeons, even to trash mobs. If anyone is actually dumb enough to melee a heavy armor Templar surrounded by an egg shaped yellow halo. If he actually breaks the shield and the Templar has a certain horned helmet he might get a blue tendril as bonus, on top of the reflected damage

The only things that are needed for each role are for the Tank to hold Aggro and stay alive, the DPS to do damage and try not to stand where they shouldn't, and the healer to heal people and try not to stand where they shouldn't. People die sometimes but the only one who's job it is to actually stay alive is the Tank, if he's dying at all he's doing something wrong (which isn't to say I haven't died many times, I was being a bad Tank every time using sub-optimal flavor builds I thought might work and was disabused of that notion in the process of playing them, or just by being stupid and messing up). Everyone should try to stay alive of course, but if the Tank dies that's usually an automatic wipe moreso than with the other rolls, even the healer as long as the Tank has some ability to self-sustain.

I agree with what many others have said about the jobs of a tank with a long list of things to do, but that's for greatest possible effectiveness and that can often be boring to play, and if any game limits builds to a specific setup or else you're "doing it wrong" then that game has serious design issues. I have spent a great deal of time and effort devising different tanking builds, and the core of it is always to hold aggro and stay alive, I only feel like I'm failing if I fail at either of those tasks. That being said I'd never set foot in a hard mode Trial with a flavor build, that would be foolish. Maybe a few powers will be selected because they fit my style, but the rest are by necessity the standard things people expect the best Tanks to use, being optimal in this game usually means using cookie-cutter builds and that's just how it is.

You're not talking about a Hard Mode Trial though, or even a normal Trial, just a Dungeon. Unless the team is wiping (or someone isn't doing their job they assigned for themselves, like the DPS's are hitting like wet noodles, Tank not Taunting/dying a lot, or Healer not healing) there is no reason to ever criticize anyone for their build, if anything Dungeons are usually the place people go to test their builds and/or level up skills and skill lines they haven't used before. If they just aren't doing their job that's one thing, but there is absolutely zero reason to criticize any Tank so long as they're holding aggro and staying alive (of course excepting that they die last or die from being hit by an unbreakable CC or unavoidable attack that their team should be helping with and don't, you guys no the fights I mean, the Flesh Sculptor in ICP or the Atro on Kena in WGT, etc.).

Doing a PUG Dungeon run and holding it against people for being less than optimal is idiotic, it's a sandbox of experimentation and flavor builds and as long as people do their essential jobs then they don't need to be optimal. Speed running is for premade groups, PUGs take as long as they take and if it bothers you when they go long then that's your problem, no one else's. That said so long as you ask someone to do something differently and don't try to suggest they're doing something wrong for not being optimal, then that's fine, and only a jerk would take offense to that. This Tank the OP was talking about was right to say that wasn't his job and the OP was wrong for insisting it was, beyond that I can't comment on if he was being a good Tank or not without having been there. Not a big deal either way though, it was a bit rude to say someone's not doing their job just because they're not being perfect or using the most optimal setup but it's not some kind of serious unforgivable transgression, it's just something you shouldn't have done and hopefully won't again in the future.

Both tank and healer's role includes support skills. That means running group buffs and debuffs that the DDs can't access otherwise, or they would take up a slot that would be used more effectively for a DPS skill. If a player from the group asks the tank or healer to run a skill, he should do it, unless he has a very good reason not to - ex. not having that skill unlocked, or slotting another buff that helps in other ways and it's considered more effective in the given situation and/or group makeup. And the claim that "buffs and debuffs don't matter in 4 man dungeons" is plain wrong. They might not matter that much when all people have max CP, BiS gear, are able to sustain and have good damage, facerolling everything, but in a weaker group not running those buffs and debuffs might mean the group will wipe instead of beating the boss. I gave the example with the chain add at Bandu. I used to PuG veteran dungeons a lot when I was 300-500 CP, mainly because I can't stand straight grinding and I wanted to benefit from the XP bonus from random dungeons instead, and farm the monster at the same time.

I've seen a lot of failures at that boss, both failure to break the tendril by running apart, and to kill the add that holds the chain. If you have a DD that dies because he wants to melee the boss and gets tendril with the tank, then doesn't run fast enough, he will die because he has the lower health. Next the boss will chain the other DD and the tank and healer are left to save him. If they can't do enough damage to kill the add, partly because tank doesn't debuff it and/or does not have enough in one of his resource pools to pull some actual DPS, they will have 2 down and most likely wipe. The mechanics is really simple, but people will wipe again and again making the same mistake.

So the adequate support actually matters even more when the group is weak, not just when the content is objectively hard. And most PUGs are really bad, especially in terms of DPS.

Asardes wrote: »

G0ku wrote: »

Tanks are useless in 4 man dungeons

Yep. I've heard that getting hit by Velidreth "corpulence" as 18K HP DD is totally survivable. And Xal-Nur the slaver does not even fear-break aggro-charge so why should anyone interrupt him? Not to mention the Overfiend and Abomination, whose cleave attacks are light as a feather

You don't need to mention just the DLC bosses, some of the "old/new" veteran instances in hardmode, will be "fun" too without a tank who has a taunt at least and is able to position a mob and adds. Debuffs and support might help too to burn down the 5m+ or even 7m+ healthbars, without blocking or rolldodging (or chainrez?) dozens of oneshot mechanics for 5min +.

...but maybe I am wrong and all PUGs consist of Flawless Conquerers nowadays :-)

Asardes wrote: »

If a player from the group asks the tank or healer to run a skill, he should do it, unless he has a very good reason not to - ex. not having that skill unlocked, or slotting another buff that helps in other ways and it's considered more effective in the given situation and/or group makeup.

i would even consider "i cant handle bar switch so i can only slot 5 skills" as an acceptable reason.

raj72616a wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

If a player from the group asks the tank or healer to run a skill, he should do it, unless he has a very good reason not to - ex. not having that skill unlocked, or slotting another buff that helps in other ways and it's considered more effective in the given situation and/or group makeup.

i would even consider "i cant handle bar switch so i can only slot 5 skills" as an acceptable reason.

I'm pretty sure "This would ruin my rotation and make me slightly less good and confident with my skills" as an acceptable reason