Tank: "It's not my job to debuff." Yeah, right...

david_m_18b16_ESO · November 2016

I don't get how you can claim it is his job to do anything beside keeping aggro and stay alive.

I mean even if it would help the group, poeple should be able to play liek they anjoy it. otherwise role tank and do it yourself.

I mean everyone want to role DPS and deal the big flashy DMG and expect everyone else to do the "support job".

Kinda that mentality that made me stop tanking randoms in MMO's

idk · November 2016

xblackroxe wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

Jamini wrote: »

Smashington357 wrote: »

Jamini wrote: »

> Honestly if you couldn't burn the boss without that minor debuff and had to make a forum post about this i feel sorry for your dps.

Eh, it's not exactly a minor debuff.

-30% Armor reduction, 30% magic armor reduction if you take pierce over ranksack.
-One of two taunts in the game
-Lasts for 15s
It's part of the S+B line, which is most common for tanks due to the amazing blocking passives.

I occasionally use the ranged taunt for enemies that aren't safe to approach. (Volenfall last boss, Ash II Titan boss) but Pierce Armor/Ransack is Substantially better than Inner Fire/Inner Beast.

Where are you getting 30%? Its a 8k debuff do you have a list of every bosses physical and spell resist? Because Ive never seen one. And at what point do you reach the armor penetration cap? I know there is one and factoring in my spell and armor penetration I'm sure im well past it and it becomes useless. I run sharpened as do most DPS plus CP and destruction staff passives I honestly don't see the debuff are useful. Not to the point of creating a forum post over a single pug if he held aggro then he did fine.

A taunt will reduce this by 8,000, or 16% additional damage taken.

1. Major Fracture and Breach a 5,2k, not 8000
2. Destruction staff passives are ONLY for destro staff abilities

Nevertheless is any tank not running these debufs in pve completely useless.

Again, we are talking about Fungal 2. His important is the debuff for such short boss fights.

We aren't talking about a leaderboard run in a vet trial. Most groups do not have those debuffs on the mage in vAA. Well, I expext most do not.

Are you for real?

I would not expect some pug tank to run alkosh/ebon or the healer to apply infallible or powerof the light on rach mob but a tank not running pierce armor? You sacrifice nothing using this skill as you need a taunt anyways so please.
Major Breach and Major Fracture are the most basic debuff that id expect even from a pug tank.

@xblackroxe

Umm yes, for real. I think the discussion the OP had is rather silly.

Ij a game that many 4 man dungeons do. It require a tank it's silly to have such a discussion about which which taunt a tank NEEDS to use in fungal grotto.

Good dps ain't gonna really care which taunt is used in fungal grotto. The. OSS is going to die fast regardless.

@cbaudersub17_ESO my statement is correct that the person you quoted is correct. It's easy to make a generalization like you did that covers the one in a million one off but it's also not very relevant to the conversation

UrQuan · November 2016

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

xblackroxe wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

Jamini wrote: »

Smashington357 wrote: »

Jamini wrote: »

> Honestly if you couldn't burn the boss without that minor debuff and had to make a forum post about this i feel sorry for your dps.

Eh, it's not exactly a minor debuff.

-30% Armor reduction, 30% magic armor reduction if you take pierce over ranksack.
-One of two taunts in the game
-Lasts for 15s
It's part of the S+B line, which is most common for tanks due to the amazing blocking passives.

I occasionally use the ranged taunt for enemies that aren't safe to approach. (Volenfall last boss, Ash II Titan boss) but Pierce Armor/Ransack is Substantially better than Inner Fire/Inner Beast.

Where are you getting 30%? Its a 8k debuff do you have a list of every bosses physical and spell resist? Because Ive never seen one. And at what point do you reach the armor penetration cap? I know there is one and factoring in my spell and armor penetration I'm sure im well past it and it becomes useless. I run sharpened as do most DPS plus CP and destruction staff passives I honestly don't see the debuff are useful. Not to the point of creating a forum post over a single pug if he held aggro then he did fine.

A taunt will reduce this by 8,000, or 16% additional damage taken.

1. Major Fracture and Breach a 5,2k, not 8000
2. Destruction staff passives are ONLY for destro staff abilities

Nevertheless is any tank not running these debufs in pve completely useless.

Again, we are talking about Fungal 2. His important is the debuff for such short boss fights.

We aren't talking about a leaderboard run in a vet trial. Most groups do not have those debuffs on the mage in vAA. Well, I expext most do not.

Are you for real?

I would not expect some pug tank to run alkosh/ebon or the healer to apply infallible or powerof the light on rach mob but a tank not running pierce armor? You sacrifice nothing using this skill as you need a taunt anyways so please.
Major Breach and Major Fracture are the most basic debuff that id expect even from a pug tank.

@xblackroxe

Umm yes, for real. I think the discussion the OP had is rather silly.

Ij a game that many 4 man dungeons do. It require a tank it's silly to have such a discussion about which which taunt a tank NEEDS to use in fungal grotto.

Good dps ain't gonna really care which taunt is used in fungal grotto. The. OSS is going to die fast regardless.

@cbaudersub17_ESO my statement is correct. I disregard generalizations. Bring real examples please. Enlighten us. (Of course with examples an reasonably experienced tank would come deal with).

idk · November 2016

UrQuan wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

xblackroxe wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

Jamini wrote: »

Smashington357 wrote: »

Jamini wrote: »

> Honestly if you couldn't burn the boss without that minor debuff and had to make a forum post about this i feel sorry for your dps.

Eh, it's not exactly a minor debuff.

-30% Armor reduction, 30% magic armor reduction if you take pierce over ranksack.
-One of two taunts in the game
-Lasts for 15s
It's part of the S+B line, which is most common for tanks due to the amazing blocking passives.

I occasionally use the ranged taunt for enemies that aren't safe to approach. (Volenfall last boss, Ash II Titan boss) but Pierce Armor/Ransack is Substantially better than Inner Fire/Inner Beast.

Where are you getting 30%? Its a 8k debuff do you have a list of every bosses physical and spell resist? Because Ive never seen one. And at what point do you reach the armor penetration cap? I know there is one and factoring in my spell and armor penetration I'm sure im well past it and it becomes useless. I run sharpened as do most DPS plus CP and destruction staff passives I honestly don't see the debuff are useful. Not to the point of creating a forum post over a single pug if he held aggro then he did fine.

A taunt will reduce this by 8,000, or 16% additional damage taken.

1. Major Fracture and Breach a 5,2k, not 8000
2. Destruction staff passives are ONLY for destro staff abilities

Nevertheless is any tank not running these debufs in pve completely useless.

Again, we are talking about Fungal 2. His important is the debuff for such short boss fights.

We aren't talking about a leaderboard run in a vet trial. Most groups do not have those debuffs on the mage in vAA. Well, I expext most do not.

Are you for real?

I would not expect some pug tank to run alkosh/ebon or the healer to apply infallible or powerof the light on rach mob but a tank not running pierce armor? You sacrifice nothing using this skill as you need a taunt anyways so please.
Major Breach and Major Fracture are the most basic debuff that id expect even from a pug tank.

@xblackroxe

Umm yes, for real. I think the discussion the OP had is rather silly.

Ij a game that many 4 man dungeons do. It require a tank it's silly to have such a discussion about which which taunt a tank NEEDS to use in fungal grotto.

Good dps ain't gonna really care which taunt is used in fungal grotto. The. OSS is going to die fast regardless.

@cbaudersub17_ESO my statement is correct. I disregard generalizations. Bring real examples please. Enlighten us. (Of course with examples an reasonably experienced tank would come deal with).

Lol

UrQuan · November 2016

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

xblackroxe wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

Jamini wrote: »

Smashington357 wrote: »

Jamini wrote: »

> Honestly if you couldn't burn the boss without that minor debuff and had to make a forum post about this i feel sorry for your dps.

Eh, it's not exactly a minor debuff.

-30% Armor reduction, 30% magic armor reduction if you take pierce over ranksack.
-One of two taunts in the game
-Lasts for 15s
It's part of the S+B line, which is most common for tanks due to the amazing blocking passives.

I occasionally use the ranged taunt for enemies that aren't safe to approach. (Volenfall last boss, Ash II Titan boss) but Pierce Armor/Ransack is Substantially better than Inner Fire/Inner Beast.

Where are you getting 30%? Its a 8k debuff do you have a list of every bosses physical and spell resist? Because Ive never seen one. And at what point do you reach the armor penetration cap? I know there is one and factoring in my spell and armor penetration I'm sure im well past it and it becomes useless. I run sharpened as do most DPS plus CP and destruction staff passives I honestly don't see the debuff are useful. Not to the point of creating a forum post over a single pug if he held aggro then he did fine.

A taunt will reduce this by 8,000, or 16% additional damage taken.

1. Major Fracture and Breach a 5,2k, not 8000
2. Destruction staff passives are ONLY for destro staff abilities

Nevertheless is any tank not running these debufs in pve completely useless.

Again, we are talking about Fungal 2. His important is the debuff for such short boss fights.

We aren't talking about a leaderboard run in a vet trial. Most groups do not have those debuffs on the mage in vAA. Well, I expext most do not.

Are you for real?

I would not expect some pug tank to run alkosh/ebon or the healer to apply infallible or powerof the light on rach mob but a tank not running pierce armor? You sacrifice nothing using this skill as you need a taunt anyways so please.
Major Breach and Major Fracture are the most basic debuff that id expect even from a pug tank.

@xblackroxe

Umm yes, for real. I think the discussion the OP had is rather silly.

Ij a game that many 4 man dungeons do. It require a tank it's silly to have such a discussion about which which taunt a tank NEEDS to use in fungal grotto.

Good dps ain't gonna really care which taunt is used in fungal grotto. The. OSS is going to die fast regardless.

@cbaudersub17_ESO my statement is correct. I disregard generalizations. Bring real examples please. Enlighten us. (Of course with examples an reasonably experienced tank would come deal with).

Lol

The funny thing is I totally agree with your sentiment on that, but the way you phrased it meant that I just had to create that image... And now I kind of feel like I could use that image in a ton of different threads

DoccEff · November 2016

david_m_18b16_ESO wrote: »

I don't get how you can claim it is his job to do anything beside keeping aggro and stay alive.

I mean even if it would help the group, poeple should be able to play liek they anjoy it. otherwise role tank and do it yourself.

I mean everyone want to role DPS and deal the big flashy DMG and expect everyone else to do the "support job".

Kinda that mentality that made me stop tanking randoms in MMO's

Comments like yours make me sort of sad.
I do tank a lot, and I do everything to support my group. When someone says, "hey, nice support!" just because I used warhorn in a fight, I have mixed feelings. On the one hand, I'm glad that my work is appreciated. On the other hand I think, shouldn't it be standard to optimize your group support when playing a support role, like healer and tank?

I understand that for newer players it is not that clear that the job of a tank is more than just taunting mobs. But when you have done some dungeons and realise that just standing there, perma-blocking and using a taunt every 15 seconds isn't the optimal thing to do, then you can go on to further support your group.

"poeple should be able to play liek they anjoy it" is just other words for "play as you want". And I don't wanna say much about this slogan, other than that it's total bs when you play in a group...

Izaki · November 2016

Jamini wrote: »

Smashington357 wrote: »

Jamini wrote: »

> Honestly if you couldn't burn the boss without that minor debuff and had to make a forum post about this i feel sorry for your dps.

Eh, it's not exactly a minor debuff.

-30% Armor reduction, 30% magic armor reduction if you take pierce over ranksack.
-One of two taunts in the game
-Lasts for 15s
It's part of the S+B line, which is most common for tanks due to the amazing blocking passives.

I occasionally use the ranged taunt for enemies that aren't safe to approach. (Volenfall last boss, Ash II Titan boss) but Pierce Armor/Ransack is Substantially better than Inner Fire/Inner Beast.

Where are you getting 30%? Its a 8k debuff do you have a list of every bosses physical and spell resist? Because Ive never seen one. And at what point do you reach the armor penetration cap? I know there is one and factoring in my spell and armor penetration I'm sure im well past it and it becomes useless. I run sharpened as do most DPS plus CP and destruction staff passives I honestly don't see the debuff are useful. Not to the point of creating a forum post over a single pug if he held aggro then he did fine.

Ah, you are right. I forgot it was a direct reduction to armor rather than a percentage (Most Major X abilites gives a 30% boost. Fracture and Breach are different)

That said, let's use this handy thread as a guide!

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/289430/new-mob-mitigation-values-for-one-tamriel

This is a dungeon mob. So we are looking at roughly 18200

That is about 36.4% damage reduction, (500 = 1%)

A taunt will reduce this by 8,000, or 16% additional damage taken.
In order for you to go over the armor cap value in penetration, you would need over 10,000 penetration from all sources yourself. Keep in mind, your pen only applies to your attacks, not necessarily to other players in the group. Sharpened takes off about 2.5k of the penetration if I remember right. The destruction passive gives you another 10%, which is 5,000.

That means from CP you need 2,700 penetration, or ~6%, in order to go over the armor cap when a mob has Major Breach/Major Fracture on it. You need over 10,700 penetration (~22%) in order to deal full damage to a mob without it.

It's certainly possible, especially if you take the spinner's set, but why not just hit that magic value of 18200 and focus on other sources of damage instead of trying to save your tank a tiny, tiny bit of stamina?

Oh, also bosses have more resistances.

You have no idea of what you are talking about...

xblackroxe · November 2016

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

xblackroxe wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

Jamini wrote: »

Smashington357 wrote: »

Jamini wrote: »

> Honestly if you couldn't burn the boss without that minor debuff and had to make a forum post about this i feel sorry for your dps.

Eh, it's not exactly a minor debuff.

-30% Armor reduction, 30% magic armor reduction if you take pierce over ranksack.
-One of two taunts in the game
-Lasts for 15s
It's part of the S+B line, which is most common for tanks due to the amazing blocking passives.

I occasionally use the ranged taunt for enemies that aren't safe to approach. (Volenfall last boss, Ash II Titan boss) but Pierce Armor/Ransack is Substantially better than Inner Fire/Inner Beast.

Where are you getting 30%? Its a 8k debuff do you have a list of every bosses physical and spell resist? Because Ive never seen one. And at what point do you reach the armor penetration cap? I know there is one and factoring in my spell and armor penetration I'm sure im well past it and it becomes useless. I run sharpened as do most DPS plus CP and destruction staff passives I honestly don't see the debuff are useful. Not to the point of creating a forum post over a single pug if he held aggro then he did fine.

A taunt will reduce this by 8,000, or 16% additional damage taken.

1. Major Fracture and Breach a 5,2k, not 8000
2. Destruction staff passives are ONLY for destro staff abilities

Nevertheless is any tank not running these debufs in pve completely useless.

Again, we are talking about Fungal 2. His important is the debuff for such short boss fights.

We aren't talking about a leaderboard run in a vet trial. Most groups do not have those debuffs on the mage in vAA. Well, I expext most do not.

Are you for real?

I would not expect some pug tank to run alkosh/ebon or the healer to apply infallible or powerof the light on rach mob but a tank not running pierce armor? You sacrifice nothing using this skill as you need a taunt anyways so please.
Major Breach and Major Fracture are the most basic debuff that id expect even from a pug tank.

@xblackroxe

Umm yes, for real. I think the discussion the OP had is rather silly.

Ij a game that many 4 man dungeons do. It require a tank it's silly to have such a discussion about which which taunt a tank NEEDS to use in fungal grotto.

Good dps ain't gonna really care which taunt is used in fungal grotto. The. OSS is going to die fast regardless.

@cbaudersub17_ESO my statement is correct that the person you quoted is correct. It's easy to make a generalization like you did that covers the one in a million one off but it's also not very relevant to the conversation

This is not about neither about Fungal or vet dungeons or normal dungeons or whatever. Its also not about the dps being good or bad.

This is soley about tanks. And there is zero reason to run Inner Fire/Rage over Pierce Armor. And if you like Inner Fire/Rage soo much then use both. If a tank is only required to taunt and survive from your perspective than they will have enough spots on their bar for both anyways.

HeroOfNone · November 2016

Did he keep the boss taunted?
Did you kill the boss?

I don't see thst much of an issue here.

He might not run the debuff to give your team a damage boost, but most of us can adapt to different builds. Some bosses may take longer due to group makeup and mechanics, but as long as they die I'm the end it really doesn't matter too much.

I also don't know what the OP'S attitude to this player was but I would give a word of caution to anyone brow beating folks into a meta. Be kind and offer help when folks ask for help, adjust your builds to suit the group, and don't tell folks "how" to play unsolicited, you're being toxic and it sucks to deal with you.

We're here to have fun after all, not to be micromanaged because you red a guide or because your friends did it in a certain way.

newtinmpls · November 2016

Tonnopesce wrote: »

If i see a 50k healt tank i roll my eyes regardess the use of debuffs or not.

I'm guessing you aren't familiar with the Blazing Shield builds.

UrQuan · November 2016

DoccEff wrote: »

"poeple should be able to play liek they anjoy it" is just other words for "play as you want". And I don't wanna say much about this slogan, other than that it's total bs when you play in a group...

I'll say something else about it. The original context of "play as you want" was "you can play solo or you can play in a group". That's it. It never meant anything close to "play with whatever mismatched build you feel like cobbling together and you'll be able to do all content just fine".

Mind you, I'm not one to tell people how to set up their builds. I'll give whatever advice I can if I'm asked, but I don't have a problem playing with people using totally non-optimal setups.

cbaudersub17_ESO · November 2016

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

@cbaudersub17_ESO my statement is correct that the person you quoted is correct. It's easy to make a generalization like you did that covers the one in a million one off but it's also not very relevant to the conversation

Uhm, no. Absolutes are either always true or not true at all...

Quite choice of accusing me of making the generalization when I challenged a general statement saying that only one taunt should be used except in only one circumstance...

and hyberbole? Really?

One of the cruxes behind this thread was whether use of the undaunted taunt was sufficient for fulfilling tanking obligations. I would say that assertions of and assertions to the contrary are very relevant.

DoccEff · November 2016

HeroOfNone wrote: »

Did he keep the boss taunted?
Did you kill the boss?

I don't see thst much of an issue here.

He might not run the debuff to give your team a damage boost, but most of us can adapt to different builds. Some bosses may take longer due to group makeup and mechanics, but as long as they die I'm the end it really doesn't matter too much.

I also don't know what the OP'S attitude to this player was but I would give a word of caution to anyone brow beating folks into a meta. Be kind and offer help when folks ask for help, adjust your builds to suit the group, and don't tell folks "how" to play unsolicited, you're being toxic and it sucks to deal with you.

We're here to have fun after all, not to be micromanaged because you red a guide or because your friends did it in a certain way.

Another guy who didn't read or understand any of my comments...

Artis · November 2016

Smashington357 wrote: »

You are wrong. It is not a tanks job to debuff. It is a tanks job to pull agro. Everything else is nice, but not part of the job's description. Just like it is not part of a healers job to restore resources. A healers job is to heal. Anything on top of that is nice, and a good healer will offer other perks, just like a good tank will offer other support to the group, but what that support is, well, that's up to the tank (or healer etc.)

The fact that you are unable to play in a group unless all members follow your idea of what they should do says a lot about you (nothing nice) and little about them. Was he holding agro? Was he holding agro on the archers and mages on the outskirts of the mobs? Then he was doing his job.

One has to ask, micro manage much?

No that's not how job markets work. It's a job of a good tank. If a tank is not doing that - then he's a bad tank and the group has moral right to - and will - complain.

Other than that, you are right. That's not something that makes the clear impossible. It's just a sign of a bad tank.

DoccEff wrote: »

Since there are still people commenting here, who didn't read or understand my whole comment, here's another summary:

- The tank never lost aggro on the boss. He even aggroed all the four adds that spawn sometimes, so I could res the dead dds. Nothing to criticise about this part.
.

Not so fast, maybe there's something to criticize about. Why were DDs dead by the time adds spawned??

DoccEff · November 2016

UrQuan wrote: »

DoccEff wrote: »

"poeple should be able to play liek they anjoy it" is just other words for "play as you want". And I don't wanna say much about this slogan, other than that it's total bs when you play in a group...

I'll say something else about it. The original context of "play as you want" was "you can play solo or you can play in a group". That's it. It never meant anything close to "play with whatever mismatched build you feel like cobbling together and you'll be able to do all content just fine".

Mind you, I'm not one to tell people how to set up their builds. I'll give whatever advice I can if I'm asked, but I don't have a problem playing with people using totally non-optimal setups.

My problem wasn't his non-optimal setup, my problem was his pure ignorance. How am I supposed to help someone who refuses to help the group? I didn't ask him to change his build (which was probably crap too), I asked him to use one single skill to provide better group support, that's pretty much the basic skill all tanks should use, I offered him stamina support, which again, is my job as a healer, but he still refused to. At this point there was not a single reason that would have stopped him from using pierce armour, but he simply didn't want to and didn't even seem to know that skill. And it doesn't matter that we could have done this dungeon anyway because he left to group.
I am so tired of writing to same arguments and describing the incident over and over. I am so tried of this crap.
I asked for him to run one single skill. One single skill. I asked him friendly first. I said "can you please". I didn't dictate anything, but still some people are blaming me for doing that. I asked. He refused. He had 580cp but didn't even know his role completely. He left the group. We didn't kick him. We didn't tell him to leave. He left us standing there, in the middle of the dungeon, with two out of three people who didn't do him any harm. But I am supposed to be the bad guy, the aggressor. I'm so tired of justifying myself here over and over. I'm so tired of people who didn't even read my comments completely but still blame me for things I have never done. If I could, I would close this thread right now, since everything has been said from my side.
Enough forum-posting for me today. I'm outta here.

UrQuan · November 2016

Artis wrote: »

Smashington357 wrote: »

You are wrong. It is not a tanks job to debuff. It is a tanks job to pull agro. Everything else is nice, but not part of the job's description. Just like it is not part of a healers job to restore resources. A healers job is to heal. Anything on top of that is nice, and a good healer will offer other perks, just like a good tank will offer other support to the group, but what that support is, well, that's up to the tank (or healer etc.)

The fact that you are unable to play in a group unless all members follow your idea of what they should do says a lot about you (nothing nice) and little about them. Was he holding agro? Was he holding agro on the archers and mages on the outskirts of the mobs? Then he was doing his job.

One has to ask, micro manage much?

No that's not how job markets work. It's a job of a good tank. If a tank is not doing that - then he's a bad tank and the group has moral right to - and will - complain.

Other than that, you are right. That's not something that makes the clear impossible. It's just a sign of a bad tank.

DoccEff wrote: »

Since there are still people commenting here, who didn't read or understand my whole comment, here's another summary:

- The tank never lost aggro on the boss. He even aggroed all the four adds that spawn sometimes, so I could res the dead dds. Nothing to criticise about this part.
.

Not so fast, maybe there's something to criticize about. Why were DDs dead by the time adds spawned??

Knowing the fight I'd guess the 2 DPS got tethered together, didn't run away from each other quick enough and went boom. @DoccEff am I right?

Hurika · November 2016

If you ask him to debuff and he says it's not his job, don't proceed to tell him what his job is (even if you're right). Convince him of the benefit to others and to him. Finishing faster so you can move to the next boss or dungeon and how it would benefit the group. If he still won't, then you need to decide if it's more of a hassle to just live with it or find another tank based on the group setup, what content you're doing, etc. Though posting on a forum probably isn't going to change their style.

Whether you're right or wrong, telling someone to do something because you said so rarely works. Selling them on why it will benefit them (save some of their time by helping out the DPS) tends to work better.

Point it out as a way to improve the group dynamic, not as what they are doing wrong.

UrQuan · November 2016

DoccEff wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

DoccEff wrote: »

"poeple should be able to play liek they anjoy it" is just other words for "play as you want". And I don't wanna say much about this slogan, other than that it's total bs when you play in a group...

I'll say something else about it. The original context of "play as you want" was "you can play solo or you can play in a group". That's it. It never meant anything close to "play with whatever mismatched build you feel like cobbling together and you'll be able to do all content just fine".

Mind you, I'm not one to tell people how to set up their builds. I'll give whatever advice I can if I'm asked, but I don't have a problem playing with people using totally non-optimal setups.

My problem wasn't his non-optimal setup, my problem was his pure ignorance. How am I supposed to help someone who refuses to help the group? I didn't ask him to change his build (which was probably crap too), I asked him to use one single skill to provide better group support, that's pretty much the basic skill all tanks should use, I offered him stamina support, which again, is my job as a healer, but he still refused to. At this point there was not a single reason that would have stopped him from using pierce armour, but he simply didn't want to and didn't even seem to know that skill. And it doesn't matter that we could have done this dungeon anyway because he left to group.
I am so tired of writing to same arguments and describing the incident over and over. I am so tried of this crap.
I asked for him to run one single skill. One single skill. I asked him friendly first. I said "can you please". I didn't dictate anything, but still some people are blaming me for doing that. I asked. He refused. He had 580cp but didn't even know his role completely. He left the group. We didn't kick him. We didn't tell him to leave. He left us standing there, in the middle of the dungeon, with two out of three people who didn't do him any harm. But I am supposed to be the bad guy, the aggressor. I'm so tired of justifying myself here over and over. I'm so tired of people who didn't even read my comments completely but still blame me for things I have never done. If I could, I would close this thread right now, since everything has been said from my side.
Enough forum-posting for me today. I'm outta here.

I wasn't criticizing you. I was just adding context to the "play as you want" thing and why the manner in which it's usually used is totally BS (in other words, agreeing with you on that). And my comment about me not being one to tell people how to set up their builds also wasn't directed at you - it was just clarifying the way I approach playing with people who don't optimize their setups.

In other words all I was saying is that "play as you want" shouldn't be an excuse for having a crappy build that drags down the rest of the people that you're grouped with, but at the same time I'm usually fine playing with people who have crappy builds that drag down the group. Not a criticism of you or the way you approached the situation. I read your original post, and I don't see anything wrong with the way you approached it. Personally I probably wouldn't have mentioned anything as long as we were doing fine, but that's not to say that it was wrong of you to say something. From what you describe I think it was fine how you approached it, and it sounded like he was just over-sensitive.

cbaudersub17_ESO · November 2016

UrQuan wrote: »

Knowing the fight I'd guess the 2 DPS got tethered together, didn't run away from each other quick enough and went boom.

...and if the four add spawns were out, who was tethered on the ground if the DPS was dead?...

UrQuan · November 2016

cbaudersub17_ESO wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Knowing the fight I'd guess the 2 DPS got tethered together, didn't run away from each other quick enough and went boom.

...and if the four add spawns were out, who was tethered on the ground if the DPS was dead?...

By the "four add spawns" I figured he was talking about when the boss splits into 4 obsidian aspects, not the 4 adds that chain someone down. I could be wrong though.

Baconfat79 · November 2016

Francis_Toliver wrote: »

Baconfat79 wrote: »

In these 4-man dungeons, it absolutely is the tank's job to provide debuffs...and also to provide Warhorn as often as possible. Tanking is more than just taunting the boss and staying alive. If you disagree with that, you are a bad tank. Why would you not want to do everything possible to help your group perform better?

Your assumption that the only support a tank can give are those things you have listed is erroneous. Yes, a good tank will offer more support then simply taunting enemies, but the fact that you think you have the one true and only right way to offer that support is....funny.

When did I say that those things are the only support a tank can give? Oh, right...I didn't. Learn to read.

Jeremy · November 2016

DoccEff wrote: »

Just another rant about a bad pug...

Yesterday's pledge, Fungal 2, me playing as a healer.
My group: 2 dds, cp around 250, doing the dungeon for the first time, and a tank with 580cp and 48k Hp.

At the second boss, Gamyne Bandu (the one that chains you down), I notice that she boss doesn't get the armour debuff. One DD was stam-based, and my ele drain was just debuffing her spell resistance.

After that I asked the tank, if he could please use pierce armour to debuff the boss.

The following dialogue, transcribed from the screenshot I took:

- Tank: "whick skill should i need to debuff xD?"
- Me: "the one hand shield taunt?"
- Tank: "mag tank"
- Tank: "its not my job to debuf"
- Me: "it is your job"
- Tank: "i also can deal damage"
- Tank: "but thats not my job"
- Me: "it is" (was refering to debuffing)
- Me: "all tanks in this game use it"
- Me: "i give you stam back with shards"
- Tank: "ok then have fun to find a real tank "

Then he left the group.

This guy had 580cp, which means he must have played this game for quite a while. But still, he obviously thought that he was right, when he said it's not the tanks job to debuff.
Usually, Hp numbers like 48k already make me cringe. But this guy topped it. gg.

Just to make it clear: He was just holding aggro with the magicka taunt and didn't debuff the boss, nor did he do any dps that would be worth mentioning. Yes, we could habe probably still completed the dungeon, and we didn't kick him, it was him who left, probably thinking what a fool that healer (me) must have been.

We then got a new tank pretty quick (also around 250cp and new to the dungeon), and completed the dungeon together. It wasn't the fastest run, since the others weren't that experienced, but it was still fun, because I saw that they were trying to follow the hints I gave them. If one of you reads this, thanks again.

--->TLDR:
Tank with 580cp and 48k hp said it wasn't his job to use pierce armour to debuff the boss' resistance. Then he left the group by himself, and I got just another bad pug-experience to share here.

I am going to side with the tank here.

Its' not his job to play his character like you think he should, which is essentially what you are saying in this post . The role of a tank is to redirect enemy attacks or attention toward themselves in order to protect other characters. How he goes about accomplishing that is up to him and not anyone else.

I also think you are putting way too much emphasis on this debuff anyway. It doesn't sound like it would have made much difference to me. In other words: you made a mountain out of a mole hill.

Francis_Toliver · November 2016

WalksonGraves wrote: »

Tonnopesce wrote: »

If i see a 50k healt tank i roll my eyes regardess the use of debuffs or not.

You realize how stupid that sounds? Hp only takes away from resource pools. Most tank abilities only scale in damage so if you have resource management handled you can use hp as a dump stat. Don't assume you know every build.

Ever see a blazing shield tank? 65k hp and can tank just about any dungeon just fine. Walks through red like it wasn't there. Very interesting build, and very effective for tanking.

I agree with you, just because someone hasn't seen it, doesn't make it ineffective.

Francis_Toliver · November 2016

Tonnopesce wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

Tonnopesce wrote: »

If i see a 50k healt tank i roll my eyes regardess the use of debuffs or not.

You realize how stupid that sounds? Hp only takes away from resource pools. Most tank abilities only scale in damage so if you have resource management handled you can use hp as a dump stat. Don't assume you know every build.

When i use the cheese trial build (bloodspawn +tava's + ebon) i have 31k healt, and when i use the dungeon "tank need to stay alive " (bloodspawn +tava's + pariah) build i have 28k.

You don't need damage even if is welcome, Since the tank abilities are first of all group utilities or selfbuffs...
And as you said hp takes away resources... Stamina for BLOCK, you know is what a tank does most of the time.
Magica for SUSTAIN, resources conversion and utilities.
I don't know all the builds but not everything works you know.

Again, it depends on the build. A Blazing Shield tank will often choose NOT to block simply because his shield is so strong he doesn't need to, and more importantly, the more damage he takes the more damage is reflected when the shield pops. So Stamina is not the primary requirement for that build. Likewise that build uses Magicka regen for sustain so that build can walk around with 9.5k Magicka without any worries.

Leaves a lot of points for health.

The higher the health the more powerful the Blazing Shield and the safer the tank.

Now, you were saying?

Francis_Toliver · November 2016

WalksonGraves wrote: »

Kidly wrote: »

I'm an inner fire magicka heal tank. Is it my job to debuff or when I'm running dungeons can I just leave it to one of my 3 dps that I'm supporting with buffs?

Pretty much. No one else is expecting to have to use skills to accomplish something that is one the basic function of the tank. Ps is the cheapest and most efficient way to go about both.

Really? What about a nightblades Mark? Double the time and double the cost (approximately), which makes it as good a debuff as pierce. Actually better IMO because it doesn't need to be applied as often. I realize that it does not taunt, but combined with a taunt on the part of a tank, it works just as well.

The idea that a tank MUST debuff is simple stupidity. Others can, just as effectively and if they don't WANT to, then they can do what you are doing, complain, complain, complain.

Ask nicely and wait for an answer. But if you expect it like its a right...

Well, learn to live with disappointment.

Attackopsn · November 2016

Tanks don't need to debuff, I am a dps that uses one sword with no offhand, medium kagrenacs hope so I can Rez fast, and I also have a back bar resto staff where I slot rapid maneuvers and trapping webs while I heavy pull. Okay but in the real world, if you're a tank, it is literally your job to buff the group and debuff the adds, taunting the boss is something that shouldn't even need to be discussed or you probably shouldn't be tanking

Francis_Toliver · November 2016

HeroOfNone wrote: »

Did he keep the boss taunted?
Did you kill the boss?

I don't see thst much of an issue here.

He might not run the debuff to give your team a damage boost, but most of us can adapt to different builds. Some bosses may take longer due to group makeup and mechanics, but as long as they die I'm the end it really doesn't matter too much.

I also don't know what the OP'S attitude to this player was but I would give a word of caution to anyone brow beating folks into a meta. Be kind and offer help when folks ask for help, adjust your builds to suit the group, and don't tell folks "how" to play unsolicited, you're being toxic and it sucks to deal with you.

We're here to have fun after all, not to be micromanaged because you red a guide or because your friends did it in a certain way.

Awesome....just so correct in such a succinct post.

You're my hero

Soundwave · November 2016

I love to tank, but never got use to blocking attacks. I rather just stAnd there and take it, or just play my dps or healer.

heng14rwb17_ESO · November 2016

For non-dlc vet dung daily pledge,tank & healer can be 200+ cp.
As long as tank/healer is the NOT first to die.

But 2 dps have to be at max cp.

newtinmpls · November 2016

DoccEff wrote: »

I asked for him to run one single skill. One single skill. I asked him friendly first. I said "can you please". I didn't dictate anything.

I'm sorry that you are having a hard time.

I would warn anyone posting on these forums that all actions in a story, all players in a group come under scrutiny.

And asking for one thing with a "you have to do it or else" flavor (no, I'm not meaning you said those exact words) is dictating.

I find it fascinating that now we get to the meat of it - this conversation was happening because the DPS's were dying. One possible solution is that not enough buffs and debuffs were going on - and that is on everyone. There are many ways to get major and minor this or that, which is why not every build fits in every group.

This is also why, when wiping on a boss, it can be helpful to ask in general has anyone got any ideas - or say 'I know we are getting this or that buff/debuff from X cause I'm doing it/seeing it/whatever' is there any duplication? Can we be more efficient?

I've played this game for years (literally) and I'm still learning. Add to that the "change the meta" major patches/upgrades and I am aware I'll never know all of it. So I get there is always room for improvement.

The point I am trying to make (and feel free to insert the "beating a dead horse" gif of your choice) is that discussing things as a group will likely garner a more positive reaction than starting a "you should" flavored shaming conversation.