Tank: "It's not my job to debuff." Yeah, right...

DoccEff · November 2016

Just another rant about a bad pug...

Yesterday's pledge, Vet-Fungal 2, me playing as a healer.
My group: 2 dds, cp around 250, doing the dungeon for the first time, and a tank with 580cp and 48k Hp.

At the second boss, Gamyne Bandu (the one that chains you down), I notice that she boss doesn't get the armour debuff. One DD was stam-based, and my ele drain was just debuffing her spell resistance.

After that I asked the tank, if he could please use pierce armour to debuff the boss.

--> EDIT: The phrase I was using (don't have this part screenshotted so I can't quote it 1 to 1) was something like: "can you pls use the other taunt to debuff the boss?" Imo when you say "can you please", it's not dictating, it's just asking, and I have no idea how some people seem to think that I offended the tank here, by asking him to use a certain skill to support the group better.

The following dialogue, transcribed from the screenshot I took:

- Tank: "whick skill should i need to debuff xD?"
- Me: "the one hand shield taunt?"
- Tank: "mag tank"
- Tank: "its not my job to debuf"
- Me: "it is your job"
- Tank: "i also can deal damage"
- Tank: "but thats not my job"
- Me: "it is" (was refering to debuffing)
- Me: "all tanks in this game use it"
- Me: "i give you stam back with shards"
- Tank: "ok then have fun to find a real tank "

Then he left the group.

This guy had 580cp, which means he must have played this game for quite a while. But still, he obviously thought that he was right, when he said it's not the tanks job to debuff.
Usually, Hp numbers like 48k already make me cringe. But this guy topped it. gg.

Just to make it clear: He was just holding aggro with the magicka taunt and didn't debuff the boss, nor did he do any dps that would be worth mentioning. Yes, we could habe probably still completed the dungeon, and we didn't kick him, it was him who left, probably thinking what a fool that healer (me) must have been.

We then got a new tank pretty quick (also around 250cp and new to the dungeon), and completed the dungeon together. It wasn't the fastest run, since the others weren't that experienced, but it was still fun, because I saw that they were trying to follow the hints I gave them. If one of you reads this, thanks again.

Some edits here after all the hate I got:

- Read at least this single post before blaming me for something I have never done. I hate to repeat myself over and over.

- The tank wasn't carrying the group. There is no way to carry a group as a tank if you just keep the boss taunted. You just fulfill your most basic job.

- Neither the tank nor me had a problem with the DDs being inexperienced. The tank left because I dared to ask him for some group support.

- We didn't kick the tank, nor tell him to leave. We could have still done this dungeon together. But it was him who decided to leave us standing there.

- The two DDs didn't say anything bad against the tank. But still, he left without them having done any harm to him.

- There are many answers to my demand that I would have accepted. For example:
"I have problems managing my stamina ressources."
"I'm using a dd/tank-hybrid setup and I prefer to do some additional damage instead of using this debuff."
"I didn't know that skill would be better for group support."
etc.
- Answers I can't accept that easily: "It's not my job."

- It was a group from zone chat, not from dungeon finder. Since PUG means "pick up group" I thought it would include this type of group as well. I don't use dungeon finder, if I'm not sure that I can solo the dungeon. When using the dungeon finder, I agree, you need to be prepared for the worst of the worst.

- There were many situations when people were thankful for my advice. For example, I once had a typical bow-light-attack user in my group. I simply told him, that using steel tornado on groups and flurry on single target would do better damage. He followed my advice, although he was curious at first, but then later thanked me for the help.

Thanks to all the people who disagree with me, but still don't blame me for things I've never done, and criticise me without any insulting.
To the people who say what a terrible person I am and how they hate me, feel free to send me a PM with your @Name, so I can put you on my ignore-list and we will never have to play together.

But why did I even create this thread in the first place?

I wanted to show, in what a bad state big parts of the community are. You can't blame DDs to not do 30k dps, when you as a tank or healer don't do sh** to support them.
It's frustrating to see how many upvotes some people here got, who think that sharpened weapons are enough to reduce the bosses resistance, that major fracture does reduce the resistance by absurd numbers, and claiming that as a support role, which the tank simply is, it's not your job to support your group by using debuffs. Seriously, mates, wtf. You don't even know about the simpliest buffs and debuffs but think you are better people than me, just because I asked someone in my group for something?

There has been a similar thread, where someone was complaining about healers not supporting the group. The reactions there are similar frustating to read. I commented there, that I would never decline using certain skills to support my group. No matter if I play tank or healer.

After all, both these threads just show how many people in this game fail to even understand the basics of your role.
Yes, that's said, but on the other hand there are so many players who are fun to play with, even if they have no optimal setup. People who will thank you for your advice, and get better because of it, instead of blocking it out completely. Thanks to all of you. You da real MVPs.

--->TLDR:
Removed this part. If you don't have the time to read this *** post you better don't comment on it.

JamieAubrey · November 2016

I'm a DD and I have Weakness to Elements slotted on my main bar, I got no idea if it helps using it on bosses lowering their spell resistance but I apply it anyway

Nestor · November 2016

Wait, someone queued as a Tank and did not want to use one of the only two Taunting Skills in the game?

It only has to be applied every 14 seconds, so it's not a Stamina Drain.

Tryxus · November 2016

I have a Magicka Sap Tank, and he thinks that guy's an idiot

RazorCaltrops · November 2016

Symptoms of play the way you want disease. Bless his anti-meta heart !!!!!

SHADOW2KK · November 2016

Tryxus wrote: »

I have a Magicka Sap Tank, and he thinks that guy's an idiot

It is a joy running dungeons with you mate, and agreed hehe

DoccEff · November 2016

JamieAubrey wrote: »

I'm a DD and I have Weakness to Elements slotted on my main bar, I got no idea if it helps using it on bosses lowering their spell resistance but I apply it anyway

It debuffs spell resistance, yes. Usually the healer should use that skill (elemental drain morph), and the tank should run pierce armour or ransack, to debuff the physical resistance too.

Woeler · November 2016

There are too many "tanks" in this game that have no clue.

Oh and ransack is for dummies. Be a man, use pierce armor ffs.

Smashington357 · November 2016

Honestly if you couldn't burn the boss without that minor debuff and had to make a forum post about this i feel sorry for your dps. You're talking about Fungal Grotto thats faceroll easy get over it. Most tanks use the morph that buff their physical resistance and most DPS i run with are magika so i'm not even sure how it helps you.

rustic_potato · November 2016

Woeler wrote: »

There are too many "tanks" in this game that have no clue.

Oh and ransack is for dummies. Be a man, use pierce armor ffs.

Doesn't pierce armor override Ele Drain? Healers don't tend to like that.

Jamini · November 2016

> Honestly if you couldn't burn the boss without that minor debuff and had to make a forum post about this i feel sorry for your dps.

Eh, it's not exactly a minor debuff.

-30% Armor reduction, 30% magic armor reduction if you take pierce over ranksack.
-One of two taunts in the game
-Lasts for 15s
It's part of the S+B line, which is most common for tanks due to the amazing blocking passives.

I occasionally use the ranged taunt for enemies that aren't safe to approach. (Volenfall last boss, Ash II Titan boss) but Pierce Armor/Ransack is Substantially better than Inner Fire/Inner Beast.

Ommamar · November 2016

Interesting perspective insisting something is someones job so they must play to the meta. Maybe think about your approach? As far as "jobs" go traditionally the tanks purpose has been to aggro mobs to absorb damage. That being said if you have an ability that does that and in addition debuffs a resistance it would make sense to help your group out by using it. Personally I try to use skills from both pools regardless of what build or role I am playing just because of the option it gives you. The off pool skill is usually weaker then someone who has the maxed out pool but since I am using it as a stop gap it doesn't need to be doing the max amount it is capable of.
Basically a pug is a gamble so would just keep that persons name as some one who you don't like to play with and move on.

Ir0nB34r · November 2016

Mag Sorc Tank here.. If you got the shards I got the Ransack.

Well, I have Ransack regardless. I spam it probably more often than I need to.

I would kill for an AOE taunt. Seriously.

DoccEff · November 2016

Smashington357 wrote: »

Honestly if you couldn't burn the boss without that minor debuff and had to make a forum post about this i feel sorry for your dps. You're talking about Fungal Grotto thats faceroll easy get over it. Most tanks use the morph that buff their physical resistance and most DPS i run with are magika so i'm not even sure how it helps you.

DoccEff wrote: »

Yes, we could habe probably still completed the dungeon, and we didn't kick him, it was him who left, [...].

We then got a new tank pretty quick (also around 250cp and new to the dungeon), and completed the dungeon together. It wasn't the fastest run, since the others weren't that experienced, but it was still fun, because I saw that they were trying to follow the hints I gave them. If one of you reads this, thanks again.

Smashington357 · November 2016

Jamini wrote: »

> Honestly if you couldn't burn the boss without that minor debuff and had to make a forum post about this i feel sorry for your dps.

Eh, it's not exactly a minor debuff.

-30% Armor reduction, 30% magic armor reduction if you take pierce over ranksack.
-One of two taunts in the game
-Lasts for 15s
It's part of the S+B line, which is most common for tanks due to the amazing blocking passives.

I occasionally use the ranged taunt for enemies that aren't safe to approach. (Volenfall last boss, Ash II Titan boss) but Pierce Armor/Ransack is Substantially better than Inner Fire/Inner Beast.

Where are you getting 30%? Its a 8k debuff do you have a list of every bosses physical and spell resist? Because Ive never seen one. And at what point do you reach the armor penetration cap? I know there is one and factoring in my spell and armor penetration I'm sure im well past it and it becomes useless. I run sharpened as do most DPS plus CP and destruction staff passives I honestly don't see the debuff are useful. Not to the point of creating a forum post over a single pug if he held aggro then he did fine.

RazorCaltrops · November 2016

Ommamar wrote: »

Interesting perspective insisting something is someones job so they must play to the meta. Maybe think about your approach? As far as "jobs" go traditionally the tanks purpose has been to aggro mobs to absorb damage. That being said if you have an ability that does that and in addition debuffs a resistance it would make sense to help your group out by using it. Personally I try to use skills from both pools regardless of what build or role I am playing just because of the option it gives you. The off pool skill is usually weaker then someone who has the maxed out pool but since I am using it as a stop gap it doesn't need to be doing the max amount it is capable of.
Basically a pug is a gamble so would just keep that persons name as some one who you don't like to play with and move on.

Well said, pierce armor is fotm in PVE and one shotting players in PVP thanks to tremorscale and viper.

Nerf pierce armor. The time has come. Let unique tanks with dreugh king slayer/rattlecage burn the bosses. No more limitations !!!

Lol...

DoccEff · November 2016

And there they are, the people who probably didn't even read all of my post and defend a player who has obviously no idea how to play, doesn't take any advice on it, and then leaves the group with a cheeky wink-smiley...

Smashington357 · November 2016

DoccEff wrote: »

And there they are, the people who probably didn't even read all of my post and defend a player who has obviously no idea how to play, doesn't take any advice on it, and then leaves the group with a cheeky wink-smiley...

Its an easy dungeon you didn't have to try and dictate everything the guy does. IF he held aggro you were just power tripping. I've seen tanks that don't even taunt count your blessings

cbaudersub17_ESO · November 2016

Uhm...I hate to break it to you; but the tank was right. It may be what you expect or even customary; but puncture (and its morphs) are not the only source of Major Fracture in the game.

Whether Major Fracture is needed or simply desired is another matter entirely.

...And, I read all of the post.

RajinPVP · November 2016

Tank maybe A jerk for leaving the group .. but telling someone how to play their game the way you want to or what he/she supposed to be doing is not any better... its clearly you have a low dps or below average dps to be even complaining about the tank is not debuffing anything... atleast hes doing hes/her main job which is taunting.

DoccEff · November 2016

All right, I give up, you won guys!
It's completely okay, when a tank doesn't use one of the two taunts in the game, and then he leaves the group, when I politely ask him to do it.
I'm going to create a DD build now, using light bow attacks only, because F*** THE META! I'm so special, that's what my mom tells me all the time!

VinyParsley2016 · November 2016

If mag tank can beat BOSS without debuff, why he needs to use stamina debuff skill? I guess the tank just didn't want to play with low cp guys, especially 2 low cp newbies who dont know anything in vFungal 2.

He gave you guys a chance, but you failed at the 2nd BOSS, and have lot of complaints. That's why he left.
BTW, you didn't mention your cp. Maybe, your cp is not high, either.

DoccEff wrote: »

Just another rant about a bad pug...

Yesterday's pledge, Fungal 2, me playing as a healer.
My group: 2 dds, cp around 250, doing the dungeon for the first time, and a tank with 580cp and 48k Hp.

At the second boss, Gamyne Bandu (the one that chains you down), I notice that she boss doesn't get the armour debuff. One DD was stam-based, and my ele drain was just debuffing her spell resistance.

After that I asked the tank, if he could please use pierce armour to debuff the boss.

The following dialogue, transcribed from the screenshot I took:

- Tank: "whick skill should i need to debuff xD?"
- Me: "the one hand shield taunt?"
- Tank: "mag tank"
- Tank: "its not my job to debuf"
- Me: "it is your job"
- Tank: "i also can deal damage"
- Tank: "but thats not my job"
- Me: "it is" (was refering to debuffing)
- Me: "all tanks in this game use it"
- Me: "i give you stam back with shards"
- Tank: "ok then have fun to find a real tank "

Then he left the group.

This guy had 580cp, which means he must have played this game for quite a while. But still, he obviously thought that he was right, when he said it's not the tanks job to debuff.
Usually, Hp numbers like 48k already make me cringe. But this guy topped it. gg.

Just to make it clear: He was just holding aggro with the magicka taunt and didn't debuff the boss, nor did he do any dps that would be worth mentioning. Yes, we could habe probably still completed the dungeon, and we didn't kick him, it was him who left, probably thinking what a fool that healer (me) must have been.

We then got a new tank pretty quick (also around 250cp and new to the dungeon), and completed the dungeon together. It wasn't the fastest run, since the others weren't that experienced, but it was still fun, because I saw that they were trying to follow the hints I gave them. If one of you reads this, thanks again.

--->TLDR:
Tank with 580cp and 48k hp said it wasn't his job to use pierce armour to debuff the boss' resistance. Then he left the group by himself, and I got just another bad pug-experience to share here.

If mag tank can beat BOSS without debuff, why he needs to use stamina debuff skill? I guess the tank just didn't want to play with low cp guys, especially 2 low cp newbies who dont know anything in vFungal 2.

He gave you guys a chance, but you failed at the 2nd BOSS, and have lot of complaints. That's why he left.
BTW, you didn't mention your cp. Maybe, your cp is not high, either.

Rex-Umbra · November 2016

As long as Tank taunts in a pug and doesn't die focus on your role.

ValkynSketha · November 2016

I don't understand how there is who on this post defend the tank mentioned, there is not a single usefulness of tank if what he only do is holding block with aggro and didn't buff group/debuff enemy/stacking trash, it is better just getting another dd.

rustic_potato · November 2016

ValkynSketha wrote: »

I don't understand how there is who on this post defend the tank mentioned, there is not a single usefulness of tank if what he only do is holding block with aggro and didn't buff group/debuff enemy/stacking trash, it is better just getting another dd.

Obviously you have not run with tanks who cant taunt.. Something is better than nothing in case of PUGs..

DoccEff · November 2016

VinyParsley2016 wrote: »

If mag tank can beat BOSS without debuff, why he needs to use stamina debuff skill? I guess the tank just didn't want to play with low cp guys, especially 2 low cp newbies who dont know anything in vFungal 2.

He gave you guys a chance, but you failed at the 2nd BOSS, and have lot of complaints. That's why he left.
BTW, you didn't mention your cp. Maybe, your cp is not high, either.

I have 650cp, but actually I saw no reason to mention it here. He didn't have any problems with the other guys being new to the dungeon btw.

Jamini · November 2016

Smashington357 wrote: »

Jamini wrote: »

> Honestly if you couldn't burn the boss without that minor debuff and had to make a forum post about this i feel sorry for your dps.

Eh, it's not exactly a minor debuff.

-30% Armor reduction, 30% magic armor reduction if you take pierce over ranksack.
-One of two taunts in the game
-Lasts for 15s
It's part of the S+B line, which is most common for tanks due to the amazing blocking passives.

I occasionally use the ranged taunt for enemies that aren't safe to approach. (Volenfall last boss, Ash II Titan boss) but Pierce Armor/Ransack is Substantially better than Inner Fire/Inner Beast.

Where are you getting 30%? Its a 8k debuff do you have a list of every bosses physical and spell resist? Because Ive never seen one. And at what point do you reach the armor penetration cap? I know there is one and factoring in my spell and armor penetration I'm sure im well past it and it becomes useless. I run sharpened as do most DPS plus CP and destruction staff passives I honestly don't see the debuff are useful. Not to the point of creating a forum post over a single pug if he held aggro then he did fine.

Ah, you are right. I forgot it was a direct reduction to armor rather than a percentage (Most Major X abilites gives a 30% boost. Fracture and Breach are different)

That said, let's use this handy thread as a guide!

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/289430/new-mob-mitigation-values-for-one-tamriel

This is a dungeon mob. So we are looking at roughly 18200

That is about 36.4% damage reduction, (500 = 1%)

A taunt will reduce this by 8,000, or 16% additional damage taken.
In order for you to go over the armor cap value in penetration, you would need over 10,000 penetration from all sources yourself. Keep in mind, your pen only applies to your attacks, not necessarily to other players in the group. Sharpened takes off about 2.5k of the penetration if I remember right. The destruction passive gives you another 10%, which is 5,000.

That means from CP you need 2,700 penetration, or ~6%, in order to go over the armor cap when a mob has Major Breach/Major Fracture on it. You need over 10,700 penetration (~22%) in order to deal full damage to a mob without it.

It's certainly possible, especially if you take the spinner's set, but why not just hit that magic value of 18200 and focus on other sources of damage instead of trying to save your tank a tiny, tiny bit of stamina?

Oh, also bosses have more resistances.

idk · November 2016

It was a 4 man dungeon. One of the older/easier ones. Was a he debuff of puncture really that important?

Jamini · November 2016

Oh also, it appears I was wrong. Against most targets Major Fracture/Major Breach is closer to 45% armor reduction. My bad.

Smashington357 · November 2016

Jamini wrote: »

Smashington357 wrote: »

Jamini wrote: »

> Honestly if you couldn't burn the boss without that minor debuff and had to make a forum post about this i feel sorry for your dps.

Eh, it's not exactly a minor debuff.

-30% Armor reduction, 30% magic armor reduction if you take pierce over ranksack.
-One of two taunts in the game
-Lasts for 15s
It's part of the S+B line, which is most common for tanks due to the amazing blocking passives.

I occasionally use the ranged taunt for enemies that aren't safe to approach. (Volenfall last boss, Ash II Titan boss) but Pierce Armor/Ransack is Substantially better than Inner Fire/Inner Beast.

Where are you getting 30%? Its a 8k debuff do you have a list of every bosses physical and spell resist? Because Ive never seen one. And at what point do you reach the armor penetration cap? I know there is one and factoring in my spell and armor penetration I'm sure im well past it and it becomes useless. I run sharpened as do most DPS plus CP and destruction staff passives I honestly don't see the debuff are useful. Not to the point of creating a forum post over a single pug if he held aggro then he did fine.

Ah, you are right. I forgot it was a direct reduction to armor rather than a percentage (Most Major X abilites gives a 30% boost. Fracture and Breach are different)

That said, let's use this handy thread as a guide!

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/289430/new-mob-mitigation-values-for-one-tamriel

This is a dungeon mob. So we are looking at roughly 18200

That is about 36.4% damage reduction, (500 = 1%)

A taunt will reduce this by 8,000, or 16% additional damage taken.
In order for you to go over the armor cap value in penetration, you would need over 10,000 penetration from all sources yourself. Keep in mind, your pen only applies to your attacks, not necessarily to other players in the group. Sharpened takes off about 2.5k of the penetration if I remember right. The destruction passive gives you another 10%, which is 5,000.

That means from CP you need 2,700 penetration, or ~6%, in order to go over the armor cap when a mob has Major Breach/Major Fracture on it. You need over 10,700 penetration (~22%) in order to deal full damage to a mob without it.

It's certainly possible, especially if you take the spinner's set, but why not just hit that magic value of 18200 and focus on other sources of damage instead of trying to save your tank a tiny, tiny bit of stamina?

Oh, also bosses have more resistances.

10k penetration okay i have that with sharpened and my destro staff passives. Done. His debuff is useless and so are the points i have in CP penetration.

Woeler · November 2016

Jamini wrote: »

Smashington357 wrote: »

Jamini wrote: »

> Honestly if you couldn't burn the boss without that minor debuff and had to make a forum post about this i feel sorry for your dps.

Eh, it's not exactly a minor debuff.

-30% Armor reduction, 30% magic armor reduction if you take pierce over ranksack.
-One of two taunts in the game
-Lasts for 15s
It's part of the S+B line, which is most common for tanks due to the amazing blocking passives.

I occasionally use the ranged taunt for enemies that aren't safe to approach. (Volenfall last boss, Ash II Titan boss) but Pierce Armor/Ransack is Substantially better than Inner Fire/Inner Beast.

Where are you getting 30%? Its a 8k debuff do you have a list of every bosses physical and spell resist? Because Ive never seen one. And at what point do you reach the armor penetration cap? I know there is one and factoring in my spell and armor penetration I'm sure im well past it and it becomes useless. I run sharpened as do most DPS plus CP and destruction staff passives I honestly don't see the debuff are useful. Not to the point of creating a forum post over a single pug if he held aggro then he did fine.

A taunt will reduce this by 8,000, or 16% additional damage taken.

1. Major Fracture and Breach a 5,2k, not 8000
2. Destruction staff passives are ONLY for destro staff abilities

Nevertheless is any tank not running these debufs in pve completely useless.