What Happen to the other half of the justice system?

sirston · November 2016

I never understood what ever happen to the second part of the justice system. first part you get to be a thief Neat! and the second part was to be a Guard. What happen to the second part? what happen to the full idea?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAFdcsmJlKE
at 2:44
No one ever explained if it was dropped because of limitations? or lag? I mean there dueling in the city's now which yes drops the fps of Mournhold down to 30, when there duels going on at the wayshine. But was is scraped because they were scared of the amount of crying? was it canceled because they didn't think it would fit the theme?

PS. Yeh I Know they talked about it in the year to come thread. but lets be honest they also say they know about pvp lag since one of them play in azura's which I suggest they play in trueflame.The system feels half there only two options, for the guards and it feels kinda empty to go murder an npc or steal something as its not rewarding.

PSS. Mods don't kill me for bringing up @ZOS_PaulSage in a video I know it's taboo.

Kodrac · November 2016

Use the search

STEVIL · November 2016

They explained on their website it was cancelled because of problems they encountered going from idea to design to implementation and would not be done.

Tryxus · November 2016

It's transformed into a dead horse, and Sheogorath gives us the sticks to beat it

BenLocoDete · November 2016

sirston wrote: »

I never understood what ever happen to the second part of the justice system. first part you get to be a thief Neat! and the second part was to be a Guard. What happen to the second part? what happen to the full idea?

They are only present in the forums now. You mention "justice system", the "no-pvp in my game" Enforcers will grief and chew you out.

sirston · November 2016

BenLocoDete wrote: »

sirston wrote: »

I never understood what ever happen to the second part of the justice system. first part you get to be a thief Neat! and the second part was to be a Guard. What happen to the second part? what happen to the full idea?

They are only present in the forums now. You mention "justice system", the "no-pvp in my game" Enforcers will grief and chew you out.

they already took away decent pvp in the game what else can they take?

Nestor · November 2016

They could not come up with a system that would add play to the game without being something that would either cause grief to most players, or cause most players to opt out of it, so nobody would do it anyway. If you think about it, you can see why.

Instead, you have Duels. So, just RP that your challenging a Criminal Scumlord.

Solus · November 2016

Seems like an interesting idea, I like it. But looking at it now, i could see where it wouldnt work. Everyone going around and trying to catch people. Would be a nightmare.

I would however like to see a jail system, and breaking out of said jail and re-obtaining your loot.

Tandor · November 2016

"We will not be adding in the previously discussed PvP component of the Justice System. We caveated this many times - as I said at the ESO QuakeCon presentation in 2014, it was always going to be very difficult making it fun, but not exploitable. When introducing new systems to the game, our number one goal is to make sure that we don't introduce new problems. Having players enforce justice on the criminal activity of other players has the potential to introduce imbalances and other issues that greatly outweigh any potential gameplay benefits. The game's central concept of "PvP in PvP areas and be safe in safe areas" needs to stay the way it is.

http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-gb/news/post/2016/01/12/eso--the-year-ahead

Every topic raised on this subject since their decision has ended up underlining the wisdom of the decision.

Solus · November 2016

Tandor wrote: »

"our number one goal is to make sure that we don't introduce new problems.

http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-gb/news/post/2016/01/12/eso--the-year-ahead

They already failed *cough* proc sets *cough cough* PVP *cough cough cough*

BenLocoDete · November 2016

Nestor wrote: »

They could not come up with a system that would add play to the game without being something that would either cause grief to most players, or cause most players to opt out of it, so nobody would do it anyway. If you think about it, you can see why.

Instead, you have Duels. So, just RP that your challenging a Criminal Scumlord.

Only problem is that if that scumlord has accept duels requests turned off you roleplay that he's the son of a king and shouldn't be bothered about his devious acts.

vyndral13preub18_ESO · November 2016

To hard. Much like making buff trackers, a decent search fuction for the guild stores, or a customizable ui.

STEVIL · November 2016

Solus wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

"our number one goal is to make sure that we don't introduce new problems.

http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-gb/news/post/2016/01/12/eso--the-year-ahead

They already failed *cough* proc sets *cough cough* PVP *cough cough cough*

As i understand it a lot of folks like procs sets enough to use them.

Honey and lemon may help.

Solus · November 2016

STEVIL wrote: »

Solus wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

"our number one goal is to make sure that we don't introduce new problems.

http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-gb/news/post/2016/01/12/eso--the-year-ahead

They already failed *cough* proc sets *cough cough* PVP *cough cough cough*

As i understand it a lot of folks like procs sets enough to use them.

Honey and lemon may help.

I ricola-ed a bit ago.

But no, I only use proc sets mostly because the people killing me are armed to the teeth with proc sets as well. When I initially started PVPing i was using hundings and stuff that i crafted, realized that i was being killed by something, googled the ability, found out that it was a set that was killing me not the player. and so started the slippery slope to proc addiction.

Kill or be killed

Nestor · November 2016

BenLocoDete wrote: »

[

Only problem is that if that scumlord has accept duels requests turned off you roleplay that he's the son of a king and shouldn't be bothered about his devious acts.

@BenLocoDete

And, this in a nutshell is why we don't have the Player Guard part of this, people who don't want PvP forced on them would also opt out of the system, so you would have a bunch of players running around looking for people to arrest. Not allowing an Opt out would probably depopulate the game. I know I would stop playing the moment some player ganked me for stealing something. And, I love this game.

Tandor · November 2016

Nestor wrote: »

BenLocoDete wrote: »

[

Only problem is that if that scumlord has accept duels requests turned off you roleplay that he's the son of a king and shouldn't be bothered about his devious acts.

@BenLocoDete

And, this in a nutshell is why we don't have the Player Guard part of this, people who don't want PvP forced on them would also opt out of the system, so you would have a bunch of players running around looking for people to arrest. Not allowing an Opt out would probably depopulate the game. I know I would stop playing the moment some player ganked me for stealing something. And, I love this game.

This is why all the threads on adding PvP to the Justice System have ultimately failed to deliver a workable solution. Most PvPers weren't willing to accept the concept of PvEers having an unconditional opt-out mechanism for PvP penalties for PvE crimes in PvE areas as there is with dueling, and the few that were willing to accept it did so too many pages into the thread for it to mean anything.

idk · November 2016

Devs chose to not do it since it would be more trouble than if was worth to build a system that kept most players relatively happy and didn't cause more issues than it was worth.

Enodoc · November 2016

The PvP was cancelled, but they never explained why the PvE aspect of Enforcers was cancelled.

sirston · November 2016

Enodoc wrote: »

The PvP was cancelled, but they never explained why the PvE aspect of Enforcers was cancelled.

Bing! there you go.

Wollust · November 2016

It got rekt by the casual playerbase I guess

Mitoice · November 2016

It got axes just like spellcrafting and the inclusion of other class, seems to me that every expansion is gonna be add 5 sets and a new small zone, its sad but no new ideas or new changes... i mean pvp hasnt been changed since imperial city (a year ago)even though ZOS has an area devoted just to pvp, they must be laid off

Enodoc · November 2016

Mitoice wrote: »

i mean pvp hasnt been changed since imperial city (a year ago)

Except... y'know, district capture (Update 10) and town capture (Update 11).

Tandor · November 2016

Mitoice wrote: »

It got axes just like spellcrafting and the inclusion of other class, seems to me that every expansion is gonna be add 5 sets and a new small zone, its sad but no new ideas or new changes... i mean pvp hasnt been changed since imperial city (a year ago)even though ZOS has an area devoted just to pvp, they must be laid off

I don't know why people seem to need to make things up all the time.

PvP has just had dueling added, and we know that they are working on small-scale battlegrounds/arenas.

As for "no new ideas or new changes", I guess you don't think One Tamriel counts, or that they are working on housing for the first update next year.

LaiTash · November 2016

Ar u mad? I've just made 80k in 2 hours by doing TD repeatables

Solus wrote: »

Seems like an interesting idea, I like it. But looking at it now, i could see where it wouldnt work. Everyone going around and trying to catch people. Would be a nightmare.

Me doing 40 to 80k/hour just by doing TG repeatables with no risk involved is a true nightmare. But that's a general state of mind of a general ESO player - get everything, get it fast, and get it without any risk.

Ghost-Shot · November 2016

The care bears were victorious, this is why we can't have nice things.

Mitoice · November 2016

Enodoc wrote: »

Mitoice wrote: »

i mean pvp hasnt been changed since imperial city (a year ago)

Except... y'know, district capture (Update 10) and town capture (Update 11).

@Enodoc
ohh right, those things no one ever uses or plays cause it was a bad idea since the start?? no wonder I forgot about them.

theyve announced battlegrounds and arenas years ago.... we been waiting and no luck so dont keep your fingers crossed for this one, a week ago the leader of developer in pvp on zos didnt mention any changes to pvp except a change in siege weapons.... seriously, why ZOS has a pvp developer section is just beyond me

idk · November 2016

Wollust wrote: »

It got rekt by the casual playerbase I guess

I'm not that casual, but did not see a good way it could have been implemented. Was glad they didn't include it.

Tandor · November 2016

LaiTash wrote: »

Ar u mad? I've just made 80k in 2 hours by doing TD repeatables

Solus wrote: »

Seems like an interesting idea, I like it. But looking at it now, i could see where it wouldnt work. Everyone going around and trying to catch people. Would be a nightmare.

Me doing 40 to 80k/hour just by doing TG repeatables with no risk involved is a true nightmare. But that's a general state of mind of a general ESO player - get everything, get it fast, and get it without any risk.

We mustn't confuse having PvP penalties for PvE crimes in PvE areas with increasing the scale of the PvE penalties for those crimes, whenever this topic comes up pretty well everyone is happy with the idea of making the PvE element of the Justice System/Thieves Guild more difficult. Actually, most are reasonably happy with the idea of adding in some element of PvP - the disagreements are always over the issue of whether any opt-out mechanism for PvP in PvE content should be conditional or unconditional. It isn't to do with the level of risk.

LaiTash · November 2016

Tandor wrote: »

LaiTash wrote: »

Ar u mad? I've just made 80k in 2 hours by doing TD repeatables

Solus wrote: »

Seems like an interesting idea, I like it. But looking at it now, i could see where it wouldnt work. Everyone going around and trying to catch people. Would be a nightmare.

Me doing 40 to 80k/hour just by doing TG repeatables with no risk involved is a true nightmare. But that's a general state of mind of a general ESO player - get everything, get it fast, and get it without any risk.

We mustn't confuse having PvP penalties for PvE crimes in PvE areas with increasing the scale of the PvE penalties for those crimes, whenever this topic comes up pretty well everyone is happy with the idea of making the PvE element of the Justice System/Thieves Guild more difficult. Actually, most are reasonably happy with the idea of adding in some element of PvP - the disagreements are always over the issue of whether any opt-out mechanism for PvP in PvE content should be conditional or unconditional. It isn't to do with the level of risk.

No i don't want to participate in this again. But honestly, if i had a choice to make my dozens of kk / hour with or without risk of getting killed i'd prefer the latter. So i don't see any sense in opt-out mechanism. And no, you can't make PvE element of the justice system more difficult. Guards are too stupid for that and will stay stupid until some smarthead makes a computer program pass the Turing test. And most likely it won't help guards much as well.

But alas, as i said most people just want to faceroll through the game.

Dubhliam · November 2016

Tandor wrote: »

LaiTash wrote: »

Ar u mad? I've just made 80k in 2 hours by doing TD repeatables

Solus wrote: »

Seems like an interesting idea, I like it. But looking at it now, i could see where it wouldnt work. Everyone going around and trying to catch people. Would be a nightmare.

Me doing 40 to 80k/hour just by doing TG repeatables with no risk involved is a true nightmare. But that's a general state of mind of a general ESO player - get everything, get it fast, and get it without any risk.

We mustn't confuse having PvP penalties for PvE crimes in PvE areas with increasing the scale of the PvE penalties for those crimes, whenever this topic comes up pretty well everyone is happy with the idea of making the PvE element of the Justice System/Thieves Guild more difficult. Actually, most are reasonably happy with the idea of adding in some element of PvP - the disagreements are always over the issue of whether any opt-out mechanism for PvP in PvE content should be conditional or unconditional. It isn't to do with the level of risk.

Yes, the topic always boils down to disagreements whether it should be unconditional or not.

But the majority of players advocating for PvP Justice don't care about "opt-out" mechanics, as long as ESO gets a PvP Justice system.
The debate always revolves around that one or two advocates that don't want to see it fully consensual.

In the end, it comes down to ZOS.
They'll eventually look at the numbers, and decide if the participation in Justice activities are satisfactory or not.
Then if they think the current Justice System is lacking participation, they maybe think of making a workable PvP Justice addition.
Or they will pump in a new PvE addition.
Or neither.
We'll just have to wait and see.

In the meantime, we'll see a PvP justice system thread pop out on the forum every month or so.
It is inevitable.

Rune_Relic · November 2016

LaiTash wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

LaiTash wrote: »

Ar u mad? I've just made 80k in 2 hours by doing TD repeatables

Solus wrote: »

Seems like an interesting idea, I like it. But looking at it now, i could see where it wouldnt work. Everyone going around and trying to catch people. Would be a nightmare.

Me doing 40 to 80k/hour just by doing TG repeatables with no risk involved is a true nightmare. But that's a general state of mind of a general ESO player - get everything, get it fast, and get it without any risk.

We mustn't confuse having PvP penalties for PvE crimes in PvE areas with increasing the scale of the PvE penalties for those crimes, whenever this topic comes up pretty well everyone is happy with the idea of making the PvE element of the Justice System/Thieves Guild more difficult. Actually, most are reasonably happy with the idea of adding in some element of PvP - the disagreements are always over the issue of whether any opt-out mechanism for PvP in PvE content should be conditional or unconditional. It isn't to do with the level of risk.

No i don't want to participate in this again. But honestly, if i had a choice to make my dozens of kk / hour with or without risk of getting killed i'd prefer the latter. So i don't see any sense in opt-out mechanism. And no, you can't make PvE element of the justice system more difficult. Guards are too stupid for that and will stay stupid until some smarthead makes a computer program pass the Turing test. And most likely it won't help guards much as well.

But alas, as i said most people just want to faceroll through the game.

I don't think it so much about decently smart AI as the amount of code needed to make a smart AI.
Especially when that needs to be multiplied n-fold by the number of NPCs
Smarter AI need to make more conditional decision.
You need to make lots of alternative scenarios (branches) to remove predictability.
And god help us leaving that choice under the control of the mighty RNG