Dungeon difficulty scale is confusing

WalksonGraves · November 2016

So I was running the vet dailies as a tank and even low level vet dungeons are apparently too hard for most people. I've had to ditch two groups in vet elden root because they took over 5 minutes to get the boss to 90% hp or they stand in aoe until they die.

This is random pugs that had at least 1 max cp dps, I can't tell you how that is even possible to be max cp and do less damage than a 3 hour old stam sorc. It's mind blowing that you can spend that much time getting to that level and avoid learning to play.

Stop letting low cp dps cue for Vet dungeons, seems like 300+ is the minimum and even that isn't enough if their build sucks.

There needs to be a clear progression for difficulty, people have no idea what they can actually finish.

idk · November 2016

Unfortunately the issue is more to do with skill and gearing.

There are players who have much to learn. Others that think they've learned much and deal damage in this BiS sets of warlock and seducer so they never run out of magika. The list goes on.

Nothing Zos can do to prevent getting a random group like that, well, little they can do.

AlnilamE · November 2016

WalksonGraves wrote: »

So I was running the vet dailies as a tank and even low level vet dungeons are apparently too hard for most people. I've had to ditch two groups in vet elden root because they took over 5 minutes to get the boss to 90% hp or they stand in aoe until they die.

This is random pugs that had at least 1 max cp dps, I can't tell you how that is even possible to be max cp and do less damage than a 3 hour old stam sorc. It's mind blowing that you can spend that much time getting to that level and avoid learning to play.

Stop letting low cp dps cue for Vet dungeons, seems like 300+ is the minimum and even that isn't enough if their build sucks.

There needs to be a clear progression for difficulty, people have no idea what they can actually finish.

Well, the thing is, people need to start somewhere. You can't learn a vet dungeon without running it, and if every time they try to run a vet dungeon the group falls apart because some people expect a vet dungeon to be finished in 15 minutes, it's not going to happen and you will just keep encountering people like that.

There's really no need to learn mechanics outside of group content in this game, with the exception now of world bosses, so if people don't run dungeons (and many people don't because they are afraid of meeting rude people, which seems to happen quite often), then they won't learn the mechanics, won't learn to block and dodge and generally stay out of red.

When I started running vet dungeons, I was lucky to have some experienced guildies patiently guide me through stuff until I learned what I was supposed to do. If you are not going to give people a chance, that's never going to happen.

SolarCat02 · November 2016

Are you talking about Veteran Elden Hollow I? If so, she has that damage shield that is almost always up it seems. It's a small window to be able to damage her, and since you can't crit against shields and penetration doesn't do anything to them either the sharpened TBS Thief/Shadow meta is at a distinct disadvantage in burning her shield down to actually damage her.

The fight itself is very easy, but it's rather boring. Unless you just want to practice perfecting your rotation, then it's perfect.

We ran it a few times on Veteran Hardmode. With low dps, it took a half hour. When we ran it the next day with three solid dps and no tank it was about ten minutes or so.

It's a grind, but it's still very doable as long as everyone stays out of the red.

Asardes · November 2016

I've run VICP in a tad over 20 minutes on Saturday, with a group made of max CP people from the zone chat. I've failed miserably at the Overfiend with max CP people from zone and guild chats before because their DPS sucked and they lacked any knowledge of the mechanics. When people over 200 CP fail vanilla game veteran dungeons it's not the lack of CP, it's a purely L2P issue: mechanics, rotation, build, gear or all of them. Even max CP people can suck badly: met a max CP mag DK DD in full heavy armor that hit like a wet noodle. Was barely able to kill the trash mobs in VCSC2. The abundance of heavy armor is an indication that the guy didn't have a clue.

VinyParsley2016 · November 2016

WalksonGraves wrote: »

So I was running the vet dailies as a tank and even low level vet dungeons are apparently too hard for most people. I've had to ditch two groups in vet elden root because they took over 5 minutes to get the boss to 90% hp or they stand in aoe until they die.

This is random pugs that had at least 1 max cp dps, I can't tell you how that is even possible to be max cp and do less damage than a 3 hour old stam sorc. It's mind blowing that you can spend that much time getting to that level and avoid learning to play.

Stop letting low cp dps cue for Vet dungeons, seems like 300+ is the minimum and even that isn't enough if their build sucks.

There needs to be a clear progression for difficulty, people have no idea what they can actually finish.

Dont blame anyone. It is your fault. Why didnt u kick the guy at the beginning?
Next time, at the beginning, kick the lowest cp guy, kick the the bow dps, kick the non-Templar healer, kick the non-DK tank. If you do that, I guarantee you will find all dungeons are pretty easy.

WalksonGraves · November 2016

VinyParsley2016 wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

So I was running the vet dailies as a tank and even low level vet dungeons are apparently too hard for most people. I've had to ditch two groups in vet elden root because they took over 5 minutes to get the boss to 90% hp or they stand in aoe until they die.

This is random pugs that had at least 1 max cp dps, I can't tell you how that is even possible to be max cp and do less damage than a 3 hour old stam sorc. It's mind blowing that you can spend that much time getting to that level and avoid learning to play.

Stop letting low cp dps cue for Vet dungeons, seems like 300+ is the minimum and even that isn't enough if their build sucks.

There needs to be a clear progression for difficulty, people have no idea what they can actually finish.

Dont blame anyone. It is your fault. Why didnt u kick the guy at the beginning?
Next time, at the beginning, kick the lowest cp guy, kick the the bow dps, kick the non-Templar healer, kick the non-DK tank. If you do that, I guarantee you will find all dungeons are pretty easy.

lol you don't think I tried? People voted it down. Oh yeah as the tank its my job to dps 7m hp. Riiiiiight.

Your advice is garbage and your ignorant thinking is a scourge on this game. You are wrong about needing dk tank, templar heals etc.

Leaving a group before knowing if their build is effective because you lack the imagination to envision anything but cookie cutter builds is a *** move.

Asardes · November 2016

VinyParsley2016 wrote: »

Dont blame anyone. It is your fault. Why didnt u kick the guy at the beginning?
Next time, at the beginning, kick the lowest cp guy, kick the the bow dps, kick the non-Templar healer, kick the non-DK tank. If you do that, I guarantee you will find all dungeons are pretty easy.

Actually all you wrote at the end is plain wrong, bar some of the bow part, since some players do indeed spam bow attacks. Most stamina DDs will use a bow on the back bar for endless hail and poison injection, even doing light attacks in between to activate the passive.

As for:
- non DK tanks: all classes can tank even the hardest content, if they know their build and the content
- non Templar healers: actually some of the best dungeon runs I've had were with a friend that has a mage blade healer, and who rekt bosses with a vengeance, while healing the rest of the group just from siphoned damage
- low CP is a problem just in the 10-100 range from my experience because progress is very fast, people don't have time to learn and/or upgrade the gear. But I won't ever kick a CP200 guy from a group based just on his CP. Only if he sucks.

I would only kick players from groups if they are not fulfilling their designated role, regardless of CP. If a tank doesn't tank, a DD doesn't have DPS or a healer that doesn't heal.

AlnilamE · November 2016

VinyParsley2016 wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

So I was running the vet dailies as a tank and even low level vet dungeons are apparently too hard for most people. I've had to ditch two groups in vet elden root because they took over 5 minutes to get the boss to 90% hp or they stand in aoe until they die.

This is random pugs that had at least 1 max cp dps, I can't tell you how that is even possible to be max cp and do less damage than a 3 hour old stam sorc. It's mind blowing that you can spend that much time getting to that level and avoid learning to play.

Stop letting low cp dps cue for Vet dungeons, seems like 300+ is the minimum and even that isn't enough if their build sucks.

There needs to be a clear progression for difficulty, people have no idea what they can actually finish.

Dont blame anyone. It is your fault. Why didnt u kick the guy at the beginning?
Next time, at the beginning, kick the lowest cp guy, kick the the bow dps, kick the non-Templar healer, kick the non-DK tank. If you do that, I guarantee you will find all dungeons are pretty easy.

ROFL!!!
Yesterday I took my NB Healer to a random dungeon and both my DPS had bows. Never finished Blessed Crucible that quickly.
People really need to get out of these boxes they put themselves in.

Danksta · November 2016

WalksonGraves wrote: »

So I was running the vet dailies as a tank and even low level vet dungeons are apparently too hard for most people. I've had to ditch two groups in vet elden root because they took over 5 minutes to get the boss to 90% hp or they stand in aoe until they die.

This is random pugs that had at least 1 max cp dps, I can't tell you how that is even possible to be max cp and do less damage than a 3 hour old stam sorc. It's mind blowing that you can spend that much time getting to that level and avoid learning to play.

Stop letting low cp dps cue for Vet dungeons, seems like 300+ is the minimum and even that isn't enough if their build sucks.

There needs to be a clear progression for difficulty, people have no idea what they can actually finish.

Tell that to the guys that have beaten vMA with less than 300 CPs.

WalksonGraves · November 2016

Danksta wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

So I was running the vet dailies as a tank and even low level vet dungeons are apparently too hard for most people. I've had to ditch two groups in vet elden root because they took over 5 minutes to get the boss to 90% hp or they stand in aoe until they die.

This is random pugs that had at least 1 max cp dps, I can't tell you how that is even possible to be max cp and do less damage than a 3 hour old stam sorc. It's mind blowing that you can spend that much time getting to that level and avoid learning to play.

Stop letting low cp dps cue for Vet dungeons, seems like 300+ is the minimum and even that isn't enough if their build sucks.

There needs to be a clear progression for difficulty, people have no idea what they can actually finish.

Tell that to the guys that have beaten vMA with less than 300 CPs.

And those guys are your average player? Exactly.

SolarCat02 · November 2016

WalksonGraves wrote: »

Danksta wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

So I was running the vet dailies as a tank and even low level vet dungeons are apparently too hard for most people. I've had to ditch two groups in vet elden root because they took over 5 minutes to get the boss to 90% hp or they stand in aoe until they die.

This is random pugs that had at least 1 max cp dps, I can't tell you how that is even possible to be max cp and do less damage than a 3 hour old stam sorc. It's mind blowing that you can spend that much time getting to that level and avoid learning to play.

Stop letting low cp dps cue for Vet dungeons, seems like 300+ is the minimum and even that isn't enough if their build sucks.

There needs to be a clear progression for difficulty, people have no idea what they can actually finish.

Tell that to the guys that have beaten vMA with less than 300 CPs.

And those guys are your average player? Exactly.

"Those guys" have just as much right to play the game as you do.

I have run veteran dungeons with low CP players with no problems, and I have had headache runs with high CP players. (My favorite was the CP501 who kept blaming me as healer for the fact he kept dying in vWGT at the Planar Inhibitor. I am sorry, but if you want to melee the boss during blue phase I don't think anyone can possibly help you with that.)

WalksonGraves · November 2016

SolarCat02 wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

Danksta wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

So I was running the vet dailies as a tank and even low level vet dungeons are apparently too hard for most people. I've had to ditch two groups in vet elden root because they took over 5 minutes to get the boss to 90% hp or they stand in aoe until they die.

This is random pugs that had at least 1 max cp dps, I can't tell you how that is even possible to be max cp and do less damage than a 3 hour old stam sorc. It's mind blowing that you can spend that much time getting to that level and avoid learning to play.

Stop letting low cp dps cue for Vet dungeons, seems like 300+ is the minimum and even that isn't enough if their build sucks.

There needs to be a clear progression for difficulty, people have no idea what they can actually finish.

Tell that to the guys that have beaten vMA with less than 300 CPs.

And those guys are your average player? Exactly.

"Those guys" have just as much right to play the game as you do.

I have run veteran dungeons with low CP players with no problems, and I have had headache runs with high CP players. (My favorite was the CP501 who kept blaming me as healer for the fact he kept dying in vWGT at the Planar Inhibitor. I am sorry, but if you want to melee the boss during blue phase I don't think anyone can possibly help you with that.)

You missed my point. The fact that one person has done something doesn't mean everyone can do it. Your example was an outlier, you might as well say since someone solo'd wgt that anyone can do it.

SolarCat02 · November 2016

WalksonGraves wrote: »

SolarCat02 wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

Danksta wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

So I was running the vet dailies as a tank and even low level vet dungeons are apparently too hard for most people. I've had to ditch two groups in vet elden root because they took over 5 minutes to get the boss to 90% hp or they stand in aoe until they die.

This is random pugs that had at least 1 max cp dps, I can't tell you how that is even possible to be max cp and do less damage than a 3 hour old stam sorc. It's mind blowing that you can spend that much time getting to that level and avoid learning to play.

Stop letting low cp dps cue for Vet dungeons, seems like 300+ is the minimum and even that isn't enough if their build sucks.

There needs to be a clear progression for difficulty, people have no idea what they can actually finish.

Tell that to the guys that have beaten vMA with less than 300 CPs.

And those guys are your average player? Exactly.

"Those guys" have just as much right to play the game as you do.

I have run veteran dungeons with low CP players with no problems, and I have had headache runs with high CP players. (My favorite was the CP501 who kept blaming me as healer for the fact he kept dying in vWGT at the Planar Inhibitor. I am sorry, but if you want to melee the boss during blue phase I don't think anyone can possibly help you with that.)

You missed my point. The fact that one person has done something doesn't mean everyone can do it. Your example was an outlier, you might as well say since someone solo'd wgt that anyone can do it.

I could give you a list, if you want. The CP80 tank who did awesome on his first veteran Spindleclutch II run and, aside from aggroing half the nightblades at the boss with the husk (and successfully tanking them all once realizing his mistake), did a perfect job.
How about the CP110 healer for two speed runs through normal Sanctum Ophidia and one more through Aetherian Archive (with only one tank)?
Or the CP15 in her first veteran dungeon who put our other DPS to shame with her strong understanding of her character and abilities?

I love running with lower level players. They appreciate those who give them a chance, and tend to be a lot more fun.

Sure, I have run with others who still have a lot to learn, but we all have a lot to learn, and the lower level players in my experience are more open to admitting it and working to fix it. I have more fun running with them, because they tend to still enjoy the game for the sake of the game. It's not a numbers crunch, it's a game played for enjoyment.

s7732425ub17_ESO · November 2016

I ran with a 561 CP player yesterday. He was DPS, and he was pulling consistent 8k DPS on all the bosses.

I can't imagine getting a group with two players like that. Any Vet II dungeon would be unplayable.

ZOS greatly increased the difficulty of dungeons with this patch. It's much harder to take along bad players because of how much health everything has nowadays.

VinyParsley2016 · November 2016

AlnilamE wrote: »

VinyParsley2016 wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

So I was running the vet dailies as a tank and even low level vet dungeons are apparently too hard for most people. I've had to ditch two groups in vet elden root because they took over 5 minutes to get the boss to 90% hp or they stand in aoe until they die.

This is random pugs that had at least 1 max cp dps, I can't tell you how that is even possible to be max cp and do less damage than a 3 hour old stam sorc. It's mind blowing that you can spend that much time getting to that level and avoid learning to play.

Stop letting low cp dps cue for Vet dungeons, seems like 300+ is the minimum and even that isn't enough if their build sucks.

There needs to be a clear progression for difficulty, people have no idea what they can actually finish.

Dont blame anyone. It is your fault. Why didnt u kick the guy at the beginning?
Next time, at the beginning, kick the lowest cp guy, kick the the bow dps, kick the non-Templar healer, kick the non-DK tank. If you do that, I guarantee you will find all dungeons are pretty easy.

ROFL!!!
Yesterday I took my NB Healer to a random dungeon and both my DPS had bows. Never finished Blessed Crucible that quickly.
People really need to get out of these boxes they put themselves in.

An exception proves nothing

Mush55 · November 2016

WalksonGraves wrote: »

So I was running the vet dailies as a tank and even low level vet dungeons are apparently too hard for most people. I've had to ditch two groups in vet elden root because they took over 5 minutes to get the boss to 90% hp or they stand in aoe until they die.

This is random pugs that had at least 1 max cp dps, I can't tell you how that is even possible to be max cp and do less damage than a 3 hour old stam sorc. It's mind blowing that you can spend that much time getting to that level and avoid learning to play.

Stop letting low cp dps cue for Vet dungeons, seems like 300+ is the minimum and even that isn't enough if their build sucks.

There needs to be a clear progression for difficulty, people have no idea what they can actually finish.

Shhh they'll call you an Elitist....

SolidusPrime · November 2016

Sorry, but if you NEED a party of best gear, best rotation, top of the top meta to finish a run, it's you with the L2P issue, not the other people.

CultOfMMO · November 2016

@WalksonGraves I thought this was just another rant post and i was in agreement with you up till you suggested a "solution"

I'm sorry to break it to you but you're probably among those players you claim to be bad if you think 300+ is a sensible restriction and that it will solve the problem. Clearly you thought you were worthless before having 300 cp. Plenty of people out there have done impressive feats prior to 300 cp. As many people pointed out, its a skill/gear/rotation problem, and that makes it near impossible to solve.

WalksonGraves · November 2016

Look I understand that cp isn't everything, it's just been my experience that under 300 can't beat vet content in an acceptable amount of time. Yes having no idea what you are doing is a bigger factor but you can't filter out human stupidity.

When I was below 300 the game was drastically different, even then I wasn't jumping into endgame content I worked down the list.

Jimbullbee85 · November 2016

WalksonGraves wrote: »

So I was running the vet dailies as a tank and even low level vet dungeons are apparently too hard for most people. I've had to ditch two groups in vet elden root because they took over 5 minutes to get the boss to 90% hp or they stand in aoe until they die.

This is random pugs that had at least 1 max cp dps, I can't tell you how that is even possible to be max cp and do less damage than a 3 hour old stam sorc. It's mind blowing that you can spend that much time getting to that level and avoid learning to play.

Stop letting low cp dps cue for Vet dungeons, seems like 300+ is the minimum and even that isn't enough if their build sucks.

There needs to be a clear progression for difficulty, people have no idea what they can actually finish.

I've had the same problem when trying to farm for the undaunted bastion set in eldon hollow. I think some players are confusing the difficulty of these dungeons. Tbh it's not a hard dungeon when the group learns the dynamics of it. It's just a slog trying to grind down the 6-7 million health bar on that final boss. It requires either alot of dps or alot of patience. But I agree, I think some lower level players are going into these dungeons not knowing what to expect. It's pretty new still and difficult to work out the new system.

CaptainVenom · November 2016

AlnilamE wrote: »

Well, the thing is, people need to start somewhere. You can't learn a vet dungeon without running it, and if every time they try to run a vet dungeon the group falls apart because some people expect a vet dungeon to be finished in 15 minutes, it's not going to happen and you will just keep encountering people like that.

Couldn't agree more. However, since we have the old vet as II, some low level or somewhat newbie people could try normal mode first. Monsters are easier to kill, but the dungeon itself is pretty much the same. If I was a lvl45~CP159, I wouldn't try vet mode for two reasons: hard for ppl with gear lower than 160 AND Epic (purple) and monster helms and shoulders wouldn't be 160.

So I also agree with @WalksonGraves. Zenimax could make Veteran Dungeons for 160CP+ only, since there is no point in doing vet before said CP and dropped sets are still available, only in Superior (blue) quality. Let's be honest: it's easy to get to CP160.

Danksta · November 2016

WalksonGraves wrote: »

SolarCat02 wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

Danksta wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

So I was running the vet dailies as a tank and even low level vet dungeons are apparently too hard for most people. I've had to ditch two groups in vet elden root because they took over 5 minutes to get the boss to 90% hp or they stand in aoe until they die.

This is random pugs that had at least 1 max cp dps, I can't tell you how that is even possible to be max cp and do less damage than a 3 hour old stam sorc. It's mind blowing that you can spend that much time getting to that level and avoid learning to play.

Stop letting low cp dps cue for Vet dungeons, seems like 300+ is the minimum and even that isn't enough if their build sucks.

There needs to be a clear progression for difficulty, people have no idea what they can actually finish.

Tell that to the guys that have beaten vMA with less than 300 CPs.

And those guys are your average player? Exactly.

"Those guys" have just as much right to play the game as you do.

I have run veteran dungeons with low CP players with no problems, and I have had headache runs with high CP players. (My favorite was the CP501 who kept blaming me as healer for the fact he kept dying in vWGT at the Planar Inhibitor. I am sorry, but if you want to melee the boss during blue phase I don't think anyone can possibly help you with that.)

You missed my point. The fact that one person has done something doesn't mean everyone can do it. Your example was an outlier, you might as well say since someone solo'd wgt that anyone can do it.

You know what's not an outlier? The max CP player that doesn't have a clue about their role or class.

Besides, I PUG quite a bit and usually have no problems while you seem to have more than your share of issues with them. Maybe it's time to look in the mirror when assigning blame to why your groups can't complete a dungeon.

Danksta · November 2016

CaptainVenom wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

Well, the thing is, people need to start somewhere. You can't learn a vet dungeon without running it, and if every time they try to run a vet dungeon the group falls apart because some people expect a vet dungeon to be finished in 15 minutes, it's not going to happen and you will just keep encountering people like that.

Couldn't agree more. However, since we have the old vet as II, some low level or somewhat newbie people could try normal mode first. Monsters are easier to kill, but the dungeon itself is pretty much the same. If I was a lvl45~CP159, I wouldn't try vet mode for two reasons: hard for ppl with gear lower than 160 AND Epic (purple) and monster helms and shoulders wouldn't be 160.

So I also agree with @WalksonGraves. Zenimax could make Veteran Dungeons for 160CP+ only, since there is no point in doing vet before said CP and dropped sets are still available, only in Superior (blue) quality. Let's be honest: it's easy to get to CP160.

Yea, because saving keys isn't a thing...

WalksonGraves · November 2016

Danksta wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

SolarCat02 wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

Danksta wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

So I was running the vet dailies as a tank and even low level vet dungeons are apparently too hard for most people. I've had to ditch two groups in vet elden root because they took over 5 minutes to get the boss to 90% hp or they stand in aoe until they die.

This is random pugs that had at least 1 max cp dps, I can't tell you how that is even possible to be max cp and do less damage than a 3 hour old stam sorc. It's mind blowing that you can spend that much time getting to that level and avoid learning to play.

Stop letting low cp dps cue for Vet dungeons, seems like 300+ is the minimum and even that isn't enough if their build sucks.

There needs to be a clear progression for difficulty, people have no idea what they can actually finish.

Tell that to the guys that have beaten vMA with less than 300 CPs.

And those guys are your average player? Exactly.

"Those guys" have just as much right to play the game as you do.

I have run veteran dungeons with low CP players with no problems, and I have had headache runs with high CP players. (My favorite was the CP501 who kept blaming me as healer for the fact he kept dying in vWGT at the Planar Inhibitor. I am sorry, but if you want to melee the boss during blue phase I don't think anyone can possibly help you with that.)

You missed my point. The fact that one person has done something doesn't mean everyone can do it. Your example was an outlier, you might as well say since someone solo'd wgt that anyone can do it.

You know what's not an outlier? The max CP player that doesn't have a clue about their role or class.

Besides, I PUG quite a bit and usually have no problems while you seem to have more than your share of issues with them. Maybe it's time to look in the mirror when assigning blame to why your groups can't complete a dungeon.

You realize as a tank if the dps can't burn the boss with regular warhorns there is nothing much I can do. The dps and heals aren't dying, nice try shifting the blame though. Feeling guilty about poor dps?

SolarCat02 · November 2016

Danksta wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

SolarCat02 wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

Danksta wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

So I was running the vet dailies as a tank and even low level vet dungeons are apparently too hard for most people. I've had to ditch two groups in vet elden root because they took over 5 minutes to get the boss to 90% hp or they stand in aoe until they die.

This is random pugs that had at least 1 max cp dps, I can't tell you how that is even possible to be max cp and do less damage than a 3 hour old stam sorc. It's mind blowing that you can spend that much time getting to that level and avoid learning to play.

Stop letting low cp dps cue for Vet dungeons, seems like 300+ is the minimum and even that isn't enough if their build sucks.

There needs to be a clear progression for difficulty, people have no idea what they can actually finish.

Tell that to the guys that have beaten vMA with less than 300 CPs.

And those guys are your average player? Exactly.

"Those guys" have just as much right to play the game as you do.

I have run veteran dungeons with low CP players with no problems, and I have had headache runs with high CP players. (My favorite was the CP501 who kept blaming me as healer for the fact he kept dying in vWGT at the Planar Inhibitor. I am sorry, but if you want to melee the boss during blue phase I don't think anyone can possibly help you with that.)

You missed my point. The fact that one person has done something doesn't mean everyone can do it. Your example was an outlier, you might as well say since someone solo'd wgt that anyone can do it.

You know what's not an outlier? The max CP player that doesn't have a clue about their role or class.

Besides, I PUG quite a bit and usually have no problems while you seem to have more than your share of issues with them. Maybe it's time to look in the mirror when assigning blame to why your groups can't complete a dungeon.

It's tough for a tank to carry a group with low DPS, so I don't think that is the OP's problem. My low level sap tank can give an edge to groups who need some help with dps but carrying groups with terrible dps is not feasible, so I wouldn't blame the OP for this either.

I do believe Elden Hollow I is a very bad example for low dps though. The only people I have seen finish this final boss in less than ten minutes are veteran trials build dps, and only without a tank.

I personally think her damage shield should be tweaked. It is not a difficult fight at all! I have played with people who have been surfing the Internet or answering the door or watching a movie while fighting her, it's really stupid. It's just a boring and tedious fight, and I think that's bad design, rather than a good challenge.

CaptainVenom · November 2016

Danksta wrote: »

CaptainVenom wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

Well, the thing is, people need to start somewhere. You can't learn a vet dungeon without running it, and if every time they try to run a vet dungeon the group falls apart because some people expect a vet dungeon to be finished in 15 minutes, it's not going to happen and you will just keep encountering people like that.

Couldn't agree more. However, since we have the old vet as II, some low level or somewhat newbie people could try normal mode first. Monsters are easier to kill, but the dungeon itself is pretty much the same. If I was a lvl45~CP159, I wouldn't try vet mode for two reasons: hard for ppl with gear lower than 160 AND Epic (purple) and monster helms and shoulders wouldn't be 160.

So I also agree with @WalksonGraves. Zenimax could make Veteran Dungeons for 160CP+ only, since there is no point in doing vet before said CP and dropped sets are still available, only in Superior (blue) quality. Let's be honest: it's easy to get to CP160.

Yea, because saving keys isn't a thing...

Greed is bad. They can save 1 key per pledge/3 per day at least anyways...

Jimbullbee85 · November 2016

Danksta wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

SolarCat02 wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

Danksta wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

So I was running the vet dailies as a tank and even low level vet dungeons are apparently too hard for most people. I've had to ditch two groups in vet elden root because they took over 5 minutes to get the boss to 90% hp or they stand in aoe until they die.

This is random pugs that had at least 1 max cp dps, I can't tell you how that is even possible to be max cp and do less damage than a 3 hour old stam sorc. It's mind blowing that you can spend that much time getting to that level and avoid learning to play.

Stop letting low cp dps cue for Vet dungeons, seems like 300+ is the minimum and even that isn't enough if their build sucks.

There needs to be a clear progression for difficulty, people have no idea what they can actually finish.

Tell that to the guys that have beaten vMA with less than 300 CPs.

And those guys are your average player? Exactly.

"Those guys" have just as much right to play the game as you do.

I have run veteran dungeons with low CP players with no problems, and I have had headache runs with high CP players. (My favorite was the CP501 who kept blaming me as healer for the fact he kept dying in vWGT at the Planar Inhibitor. I am sorry, but if you want to melee the boss during blue phase I don't think anyone can possibly help you with that.)

You missed my point. The fact that one person has done something doesn't mean everyone can do it. Your example was an outlier, you might as well say since someone solo'd wgt that anyone can do it.

You know what's not an outlier? The max CP player that doesn't have a clue about their role or class.

Besides, I PUG quite a bit and usually have no problems while you seem to have more than your share of issues with them. Maybe it's time to look in the mirror when assigning blame to why your groups can't complete a dungeon.

The OP isn't blaming players! The OP is blaming the new and confusing dungeon setup. That's pretty low what you're suggesting. I hope the OP doesnt allow you to bait him. At any point since the imperial city update most if not all groups had to be high level to complete the WGT and ICP dungeons. Lower level players like myself back in time (because we were all noobs once) wouldn't even bother trying until our chars had developed alot more. I don't think anyone is blaming players for testing the waters though.

UrQuan · November 2016

SolarCat02 wrote: »

Danksta wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

SolarCat02 wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

Danksta wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

So I was running the vet dailies as a tank and even low level vet dungeons are apparently too hard for most people. I've had to ditch two groups in vet elden root because they took over 5 minutes to get the boss to 90% hp or they stand in aoe until they die.

This is random pugs that had at least 1 max cp dps, I can't tell you how that is even possible to be max cp and do less damage than a 3 hour old stam sorc. It's mind blowing that you can spend that much time getting to that level and avoid learning to play.

Stop letting low cp dps cue for Vet dungeons, seems like 300+ is the minimum and even that isn't enough if their build sucks.

There needs to be a clear progression for difficulty, people have no idea what they can actually finish.

Tell that to the guys that have beaten vMA with less than 300 CPs.

And those guys are your average player? Exactly.

"Those guys" have just as much right to play the game as you do.

I have run veteran dungeons with low CP players with no problems, and I have had headache runs with high CP players. (My favorite was the CP501 who kept blaming me as healer for the fact he kept dying in vWGT at the Planar Inhibitor. I am sorry, but if you want to melee the boss during blue phase I don't think anyone can possibly help you with that.)

You missed my point. The fact that one person has done something doesn't mean everyone can do it. Your example was an outlier, you might as well say since someone solo'd wgt that anyone can do it.

You know what's not an outlier? The max CP player that doesn't have a clue about their role or class.

Besides, I PUG quite a bit and usually have no problems while you seem to have more than your share of issues with them. Maybe it's time to look in the mirror when assigning blame to why your groups can't complete a dungeon.

It's tough for a tank to carry a group with low DPS, so I don't think that is the OP's problem. My low level sap tank can give an edge to groups who need some help with dps but carrying groups with terrible dps is not feasible, so I wouldn't blame the OP for this either.

I do believe Elden Hollow II is a very bad example for low dps though. The only people I have seen finish this final boss in less than ten minutes are veteran trials build dps, and only without a tank.

I personally think her damage shield should be tweaked. It is not a difficult fight at all! I have played with people who have been surfing the Internet or answering the door or watching a movie while fighting her, it's really stupid. It's just a boring and tedious fight, and I think that's bad design, rather than a good challenge.

Wait... Now I'm confused between the 2 versions of the dungeon (this regularly happens to me with several of the dungeons). Isn't it vet Elden Hollow 1 that has the final boss with the damage shield? I didn't think there was a damage shield in EH2, just heals.

Either way, I've done the final boss fight on hard mode in under 10 minutes several times with a traditional group (1 tank, 1 healer, 2 DPS) and without vet trials build DPS (sometimes I've been one of the DPS, and I'm definitely not a vet trials build DPS). But I'm not exactly talking about PUGs here either. I'm talking about groups of friends and guildies who are all pretty experienced with vet dungeons.

vyndral13preub18_ESO · November 2016

WalksonGraves wrote: »

Danksta wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

SolarCat02 wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

Danksta wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

So I was running the vet dailies as a tank and even low level vet dungeons are apparently too hard for most people. I've had to ditch two groups in vet elden root because they took over 5 minutes to get the boss to 90% hp or they stand in aoe until they die.

This is random pugs that had at least 1 max cp dps, I can't tell you how that is even possible to be max cp and do less damage than a 3 hour old stam sorc. It's mind blowing that you can spend that much time getting to that level and avoid learning to play.

Stop letting low cp dps cue for Vet dungeons, seems like 300+ is the minimum and even that isn't enough if their build sucks.

There needs to be a clear progression for difficulty, people have no idea what they can actually finish.

Tell that to the guys that have beaten vMA with less than 300 CPs.

And those guys are your average player? Exactly.

"Those guys" have just as much right to play the game as you do.

I have run veteran dungeons with low CP players with no problems, and I have had headache runs with high CP players. (My favorite was the CP501 who kept blaming me as healer for the fact he kept dying in vWGT at the Planar Inhibitor. I am sorry, but if you want to melee the boss during blue phase I don't think anyone can possibly help you with that.)

You missed my point. The fact that one person has done something doesn't mean everyone can do it. Your example was an outlier, you might as well say since someone solo'd wgt that anyone can do it.

You know what's not an outlier? The max CP player that doesn't have a clue about their role or class.

Besides, I PUG quite a bit and usually have no problems while you seem to have more than your share of issues with them. Maybe it's time to look in the mirror when assigning blame to why your groups can't complete a dungeon.

You realize as a tank if the dps can't burn the boss with regular warhorns there is nothing much I can do. The dps and heals aren't dying, nice try shifting the blame though. Feeling guilty about poor dps?

So you can do like 90% of the dungeons? Because only a few of them have a dps race in them. Some of them might take awhile but are doable it doesnt matter what your dps is.

I get it, you are in a hurry. But if the dps and the healer aint dying, the only reason your bailing is because your in a hurry, not because the dungeon wont get done.

SolarCat02 · November 2016

UrQuan wrote: »

SolarCat02 wrote: »

Danksta wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

SolarCat02 wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

Danksta wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

So I was running the vet dailies as a tank and even low level vet dungeons are apparently too hard for most people. I've had to ditch two groups in vet elden root because they took over 5 minutes to get the boss to 90% hp or they stand in aoe until they die.

This is random pugs that had at least 1 max cp dps, I can't tell you how that is even possible to be max cp and do less damage than a 3 hour old stam sorc. It's mind blowing that you can spend that much time getting to that level and avoid learning to play.

Stop letting low cp dps cue for Vet dungeons, seems like 300+ is the minimum and even that isn't enough if their build sucks.

There needs to be a clear progression for difficulty, people have no idea what they can actually finish.

Tell that to the guys that have beaten vMA with less than 300 CPs.

And those guys are your average player? Exactly.

"Those guys" have just as much right to play the game as you do.

I have run veteran dungeons with low CP players with no problems, and I have had headache runs with high CP players. (My favorite was the CP501 who kept blaming me as healer for the fact he kept dying in vWGT at the Planar Inhibitor. I am sorry, but if you want to melee the boss during blue phase I don't think anyone can possibly help you with that.)

You missed my point. The fact that one person has done something doesn't mean everyone can do it. Your example was an outlier, you might as well say since someone solo'd wgt that anyone can do it.

You know what's not an outlier? The max CP player that doesn't have a clue about their role or class.

Besides, I PUG quite a bit and usually have no problems while you seem to have more than your share of issues with them. Maybe it's time to look in the mirror when assigning blame to why your groups can't complete a dungeon.

It's tough for a tank to carry a group with low DPS, so I don't think that is the OP's problem. My low level sap tank can give an edge to groups who need some help with dps but carrying groups with terrible dps is not feasible, so I wouldn't blame the OP for this either.

I do believe Elden Hollow II is a very bad example for low dps though. The only people I have seen finish this final boss in less than ten minutes are veteran trials build dps, and only without a tank.

I personally think her damage shield should be tweaked. It is not a difficult fight at all! I have played with people who have been surfing the Internet or answering the door or watching a movie while fighting her, it's really stupid. It's just a boring and tedious fight, and I think that's bad design, rather than a good challenge.

Wait... Now I'm confused between the 2 versions of the dungeon (this regularly happens to me with several of the dungeons). Isn't it vet Elden Hollow 1 that has the final boss with the damage shield? I didn't think there was a damage shield in EH2, just heals.

Either way, I've done the final boss fight on hard mode in under 10 minutes several times with a traditional group (1 tank, 1 healer, 2 DPS) and without vet trials build DPS (sometimes I've been one of the DPS, and I'm definitely not a vet trials build DPS). But I'm not exactly talking about PUGs here either. I'm talking about groups of friends and guildies who are all pretty experienced with vet dungeons.

I meant 1, not 2,sorry! I edited to prevent my confusion from passing on to others. Still adjusting to the whole I/II thing and talking veteran I sometimes automatically add the two.

We have beat it under ten minutes with a more traditional group, too, in the guild, so it's definitely possible! But if I am not mistaken, the speed run achievement is still for under 20 minutes for the whole dungeon, and I don't think the final boss was ever meant to average half the speed run time. (If the speed run omits the final boss however, like Banished Cells' does, then my apologies. I am not near my console st the moment and can't check).