[edit: nevermind]

Sharee wrote: »

BuddyAces wrote: »

summitxho wrote: »

Callous2208 wrote: »

If they succeed, they will be the first MMO to maintain a quality product after implementation of such systems. It will be interesting to see indeed. History would seem to show that it can't be done, or perhaps will not be done. These are businesses after all, and it is by far easier and more profitable to run a skinner box/gambling system, than it is to produce and maintain a fine product.

Very true, but we would be living in a very different world if we all gave up where others failed, one persons failure is another persons success, that has driven human innovation. So far I have seen these crates implemented in a way that suggests they are taking some of these past failures into consideration, avoiding the pay to win, to me that's a good sign. Will it change in the future? Perhaps, but I am not one to make a prediction based on other companies failings. I take a wait and see approach as I like to work from facts, but I like to think they have some smart experienced people making the calls on an MMO this size, that would be smart for profits and business after all which is why they made the game to begin with. Part of business is to learn from past mistakes, improve and try again if there is a potential for a return, a smart business does not put all revenue generation in one basket, if this is where they felt they could make an improvement over the long term profitability, I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt until I see otherwise, not from other MMO's, but from ESO itself.

In business you always have people telling you how you should run it, listen to them, but as the business owner you should know how to run it best and not be afraid to ruffle some feathers as you will never appease everyone. If they fail in showing me they can run this thing over a long term by making smart business decisions then its not going to be crates that does it in, but in mismanagement as a whole.

Hitting yourself on the head 25 times with a hammer and then passing the hammer to someone else and hoping that the next blow won't hurt....that's where everyone who has played a game(s) that has introduced these ridiculous things are at. We know what's coming because we've been through it before. Every game had people like you saying the same stuff "Well hopefully this company is better than that and they know what they are doing because 'X' reason." It always ends the same. A-L-W-A-Y-S.

I am all for criticizing ZOS for things they did wrong, but man, bashing them for things they didn't do yet, that's a step too far IMHO.

Do you think the chances of something changing are higher once it is implemented or before it is implemented?

I believe it is always easier to change them before they are implemented.

And there are a few changes that can be made that would make a lot of people at least be able to stomach the crates, including me. These are, to me, the bare minimum changes that need to be made for me to shut up about this and go back to only complaining about the lack of soft caps and black hair for Altmer:

1 - Make so that the only exclusives are the collectibles that match the theme of the crate.
2 - Make it possible to trade unwanted collectibles for gems, not only the repeated ones.
3 - Make repeated collectibles return at least half the gems an item of that tier of rewards would cost (ideally, it would be a full refund, but with the "1/3 plus one gem" thing that makes you have to drop the same item FIVE TIMES to be able to afford an item of that same tier, I doubt that ZOS would do it).

I think I never explained why I think these changes help with the issue. One of the reasons is precisely why I think ZOS won't make these changes: Crates working on the way I described are much, MUCH less profitable than the current model they have planned. If the crates are not responsible for a too big of a chunk of their income, I imagine the development shift will happen more slowly or maybe not at all (wishful thinking). This is speculation on my part.
The other reason is that, hopefully, with a system that is more consumer-friendly, less players will quit over the implementation of the crates. Hopefully, not as many that will make an actual difference.

How do I join PAWS?

mommadani907 wrote: »

PAWS was started by our most favorite Santie Claws, and the instructions were to just add it to your signature. That is all.

You forgot the cat mask!

alexkdd99 wrote: »

I believe about 25% of threads on here are meant solely to inflame or get a negative reaction from people.

Also I was unaware this community had so many people that are able to tell the future or are game developers for major gaming companies.

I guess everyone here is an expert in game developing, marketing, and seeing into the future though. Maybe if I hang out here long enough I can become all these things also.

Not an expert at game devving, marketing, or fortune telling. Don't need to be an expert to see that every single game that has done this completely went down the drain fast. Every last one of them. Now, if you magically think that this will be the only game in history to not follow suit, then I'm happy that you have such a great outlook. I'd be happier than hell if I turned out to be wrong. Would be a hell of a step forward for any future game to watch how they managed to not sink their game with this dumb ass idea so everyone else could copy them.

But it's not going to happen.

BuddyAces wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

BuddyAces wrote: »

summitxho wrote: »

Callous2208 wrote: »

If they succeed, they will be the first MMO to maintain a quality product after implementation of such systems. It will be interesting to see indeed. History would seem to show that it can't be done, or perhaps will not be done. These are businesses after all, and it is by far easier and more profitable to run a skinner box/gambling system, than it is to produce and maintain a fine product.

Very true, but we would be living in a very different world if we all gave up where others failed, one persons failure is another persons success, that has driven human innovation. So far I have seen these crates implemented in a way that suggests they are taking some of these past failures into consideration, avoiding the pay to win, to me that's a good sign. Will it change in the future? Perhaps, but I am not one to make a prediction based on other companies failings. I take a wait and see approach as I like to work from facts, but I like to think they have some smart experienced people making the calls on an MMO this size, that would be smart for profits and business after all which is why they made the game to begin with. Part of business is to learn from past mistakes, improve and try again if there is a potential for a return, a smart business does not put all revenue generation in one basket, if this is where they felt they could make an improvement over the long term profitability, I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt until I see otherwise, not from other MMO's, but from ESO itself.

In business you always have people telling you how you should run it, listen to them, but as the business owner you should know how to run it best and not be afraid to ruffle some feathers as you will never appease everyone. If they fail in showing me they can run this thing over a long term by making smart business decisions then its not going to be crates that does it in, but in mismanagement as a whole.

Hitting yourself on the head 25 times with a hammer and then passing the hammer to someone else and hoping that the next blow won't hurt....that's where everyone who has played a game(s) that has introduced these ridiculous things are at. We know what's coming because we've been through it before. Every game had people like you saying the same stuff "Well hopefully this company is better than that and they know what they are doing because 'X' reason." It always ends the same. A-L-W-A-Y-S.

I am all for criticizing ZOS for things they did wrong, but man, bashing them for things they didn't do yet, that's a step too far IMHO.

It needs to be repeated until everyone realizes that NOT one single game in the history of gaming, NOT ONE, has ever been able to do these kind of crates and not have their game fail. Not one. There is an undeniable pattern to this boxes that they destroy games. Every. Single. Time.

That's why we pop up in these threads. It has nothing to do with gambling (that's a beef with another subset of players), wanting what others have, or being a whiner. We like this game, we don't want it to go down the road that ALL the other games that have done this have.

CS:GO, DOTA 2, darn TF2 its still alive just beacuse rng crates lol

BuddyAces wrote: »

alexkdd99 wrote: »

I believe about 25% of threads on here are meant solely to inflame or get a negative reaction from people.

Also I was unaware this community had so many people that are able to tell the future or are game developers for major gaming companies.

I guess everyone here is an expert in game developing, marketing, and seeing into the future though. Maybe if I hang out here long enough I can become all these things also.

Not an expert at game devving, marketing, or fortune telling. Don't need to be an expert to see that every single game that has done this completely went down the drain fast. Every last one of them.

You do not know every last game that has done this.

Sharee wrote: »

BuddyAces wrote: »

summitxho wrote: »

Callous2208 wrote: »

If they succeed, they will be the first MMO to maintain a quality product after implementation of such systems. It will be interesting to see indeed. History would seem to show that it can't be done, or perhaps will not be done. These are businesses after all, and it is by far easier and more profitable to run a skinner box/gambling system, than it is to produce and maintain a fine product.

Very true, but we would be living in a very different world if we all gave up where others failed, one persons failure is another persons success, that has driven human innovation. So far I have seen these crates implemented in a way that suggests they are taking some of these past failures into consideration, avoiding the pay to win, to me that's a good sign. Will it change in the future? Perhaps, but I am not one to make a prediction based on other companies failings. I take a wait and see approach as I like to work from facts, but I like to think they have some smart experienced people making the calls on an MMO this size, that would be smart for profits and business after all which is why they made the game to begin with. Part of business is to learn from past mistakes, improve and try again if there is a potential for a return, a smart business does not put all revenue generation in one basket, if this is where they felt they could make an improvement over the long term profitability, I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt until I see otherwise, not from other MMO's, but from ESO itself.

In business you always have people telling you how you should run it, listen to them, but as the business owner you should know how to run it best and not be afraid to ruffle some feathers as you will never appease everyone. If they fail in showing me they can run this thing over a long term by making smart business decisions then its not going to be crates that does it in, but in mismanagement as a whole.

Hitting yourself on the head 25 times with a hammer and then passing the hammer to someone else and hoping that the next blow won't hurt....that's where everyone who has played a game(s) that has introduced these ridiculous things are at. We know what's coming because we've been through it before. Every game had people like you saying the same stuff "Well hopefully this company is better than that and they know what they are doing because 'X' reason." It always ends the same. A-L-W-A-Y-S.

I am all for criticizing ZOS for things they did wrong, but man, bashing them for things they didn't do yet, that's a step too far IMHO.

Ah, Sharee....I believe you were one of the players who "opened" this forum way back when.

The fervor you're seeing is born of the belief that it's a fait accompli.

I'm acting that way myself, preparing my orderly departure upon their arrival - now strictly a personal decision, as there's no point in arguing over it any more.

But it would be interesting were they to back off. The amount of disappointment at not having them could not possibly outweigh the good will achieved if ZOS announced that these crates would not be arriving....ever

bellanca6561n wrote: »

But it would be interesting were they to back off. The amount of disappointment at not having them could not possibly outweigh the good will achieved if ZOS announced that these crates would not be arriving....ever

I wouldn't be so sure about that. While it may seem so reading all these anti-crate threads, it is possible that the people who like the crates are simply staying silent (since they have no reason to complain right now).

I mean, imagine two players who normally do not use the forums hear that the crates are coming. One of them is happy with the crates, the other one is furious. Which one is more likely to come to the forums to express his opinion?

I personally have no intention of spending money on the crown crates. I could care less what other people choose to do. I don't have to agree with someone that thinks they are an awesome idea. And they don't have to agree with me.

I am interested to see how the future of the game is going to go. But not because crown crates by themselves are going to kill the game. That isn't what I think. I think there have been a multitude of decisions that point to a shorter lifespan for the game and not a longer one. I really enjoy the game and had intended to play it for a long time. So I obviously hope that things go well and the game is around for a longer period of time.

No matter if people are against the crown crates or not, they will be going into the game. I have no expectation of them changing their mind about them. The only way I can see them doing that is if it came with substantially raised prices in the crown store.

And no no no, I have seen some very nasty pro crate people too. Its on both sides.

Callous2208 wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Callous2208 wrote: »

summitxho wrote: »

its the same people complaining about these in every thread, just a very passionate bunch is all. It either comes down to being against gambling, or being upset some cosmetic items are locked behind a gambling mechanic. Both have points as per their play style and how they enjoy the game, but it also sort of stinks of entitlement mentality, some people you just cannot make happy, that's life. The mentality that because I choose not to participate in something against my beliefs, you should not be able to take the chance to get it either I think is wrong, where I more believe in freedom of choice, if I want to spend crowns on a fun short lived gimmick, I worked hard to be able to make that choice. If people are threatening to quit over such a thing, I have a feeling they would leave the game over something eventually.

Once they are implemented, I will be very curious to see where this game goes, as for now I have faith in ZOS to run its business not the way one group wants it run, but to make money and keep rolling out new content. We will see.

If they succeed, they will be the first MMO to maintain a quality product after implementation of such systems. It will be interesting to see indeed. History would seem to show that it can't be done, or perhaps will not be done. These are businesses after all, and it is by far easier and more profitable to run a skinner box/gambling system, than it is to produce and maintain a fine product.

The gambling boxes are pretty irrelevant to whether they are producing a fine product. Just a bunch of costumes for you and your mount. That is like evaluating Hearthstone based on card backs.

Incorrect sir. You may have limited experience with mmorpgs and how this works however, I am not sure. The implementation of gambling boxes has never in the history of mmorpgs not soured the overall product as time passes. Content suffers, quality suffers. All focus and effort is put into new and creative ways to get you to gamble on these boxes. I realize this sounds farfetched or a bit over dramatic, but as I've said before, no other mmorpg to date has implemented such a feature and not suffered an extreme downturn in overall quality in every aspect except the cash shop. The marketing director ZOS hired, has worked on dozens of mmos in the same capacity, and each is widely considered to be a p2w title that is either dead or on life support. Gambling boxes, and how they shift a game developers focus, more often than not spell doom for that title. In the grander mmo community, it is seen as a last ditch effort to milk the remaining whales and loyal subscribers, as the game fades away into obscurity. People see gambling boxes, people roll their eyes and say here we go again. Then they leave the game and recommend that others never even start. I wish this weren't so. I wish ZOS would find a way to do things differently. Only time will tell. But surely you can see, given the precedence that's been set, why people are a bit uneasy about this subject.

This.

After seeing the quality and quantity of content go downhill in... well, in every MMO where cash shop gambling packages such as this have been implemented (and that's EVERY MMO that they've been implemented...), I have to agree.

It's such a similar feeling.

They announced the Crown Crates, and announced that they were going to be tested on the PTS, and I did actually roll my eyes. I also started looking for new MMO's on the near horizon for both the Consoles and PC.

It's not that I want to leave ESO, it's just that I know and remember what has happened to MMO's that I love(d) once these were implemented, and it's exactly as you say.

We'll start getting less and less content added in as more and more development time gets shifted away from content, and more and more into items for these crates. Eventually, the crates will be the only thing they develop for.

Again; it's not that I want ESO to end, but I've seen it happen to too many MMO's that "the Lady" has worked for. It's happened so many times, that I can see the warning signs all over the place, because it's happened to every MMO that they've been implemented into.

If these Crown Crates work as she intends for them to work, ESO will just be another MMO-husk in her trail of dead and exploited MMO's. Crown Crates and similar cash shop packages are cancer to MMO's.

It's sad too. There's such history of cash shop packages like this killing MMO's, but people won't see the imminent danger that they pose to ESO, when there's so many MMO's that serve as huge warning signs...

Just about everything in these crown crate threads is speculation passed on as facts. People don't want to spend their money on the crates but they also don't want to feel left out when other people have that cool mount you wanted. Try and turn it around however you want acting as if you are some sort of moral saint but it all comes down to envy.

Hmm I just added to the speculation that these crown crate threads are full of. If game developers have into their customers temper tantrums we would have no games to play, you simply can't please everyone. I personally never buy cosmetics but I am starting to think I may purchase a couple crown crates just cause I like things like gamble boxes.

alexkdd99 wrote: »

Just about everything in these crown crate threads is speculation passed on as facts. People don't want to spend their money on the crates but they also don't want to feel left out when other people have that cool mount you wanted. Try and turn it around however you want acting as if you are some sort of moral saint but it all comes down to envy.

Hmm I just added to the speculation that these crown crate threads are full of. If game developers have into their customers temper tantrums we would have no games to play, you simply can't please everyone. I personally never buy cosmetics but I am starting to think I may purchase a couple crown crates just cause I like things like gamble boxes.

They were on the pts. They are gamble boxes. Gamble boxes are not a new concept. If what you said above is really what you think this is all about, you skimmed over this thread and ignored the meat of the argument of those against these. I don't care about cost, I could sit and buy them up until I had all the cool stuff in them, no matter how bad my rng was. But all of my money, and everyone else's combined, won't push them into maintaining and updating their game. Nothing about what these type of systems have done to every other mmo is speculation, it is all fact. If you don't believe this, then ESO is your first experience with mmorpgs.

BuddyAces wrote: »

Callous2208 wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Callous2208 wrote: »

summitxho wrote: »

its the same people complaining about these in every thread, just a very passionate bunch is all. It either comes down to being against gambling, or being upset some cosmetic items are locked behind a gambling mechanic. Both have points as per their play style and how they enjoy the game, but it also sort of stinks of entitlement mentality, some people you just cannot make happy, that's life. The mentality that because I choose not to participate in something against my beliefs, you should not be able to take the chance to get it either I think is wrong, where I more believe in freedom of choice, if I want to spend crowns on a fun short lived gimmick, I worked hard to be able to make that choice. If people are threatening to quit over such a thing, I have a feeling they would leave the game over something eventually.

Once they are implemented, I will be very curious to see where this game goes, as for now I have faith in ZOS to run its business not the way one group wants it run, but to make money and keep rolling out new content. We will see.

If they succeed, they will be the first MMO to maintain a quality product after implementation of such systems. It will be interesting to see indeed. History would seem to show that it can't be done, or perhaps will not be done. These are businesses after all, and it is by far easier and more profitable to run a skinner box/gambling system, than it is to produce and maintain a fine product.

The gambling boxes are pretty irrelevant to whether they are producing a fine product. Just a bunch of costumes for you and your mount. That is like evaluating Hearthstone based on card backs.

Incorrect sir. You may have limited experience with mmorpgs and how this works however, I am not sure. The implementation of gambling boxes has never in the history of mmorpgs not soured the overall product as time passes. Content suffers, quality suffers. All focus and effort is put into new and creative ways to get you to gamble on these boxes. I realize this sounds farfetched or a bit over dramatic, but as I've said before, no other mmorpg to date has implemented such a feature and not suffered an extreme downturn in overall quality in every aspect except the cash shop. The marketing director ZOS hired, has worked on dozens of mmos in the same capacity, and each is widely considered to be a p2w title that is either dead or on life support. Gambling boxes, and how they shift a game developers focus, more often than not spell doom for that title. In the grander mmo community, it is seen as a last ditch effort to milk the remaining whales and loyal subscribers, as the game fades away into obscurity. People see gambling boxes, people roll their eyes and say here we go again. Then they leave the game and recommend that others never even start. I wish this weren't so. I wish ZOS would find a way to do things differently. Only time will tell. But surely you can see, given the precedence that's been set, why people are a bit uneasy about this subject.

Quoting you so in case some one missed it the first time. I don't understand how normal sensible people can read this and not grasp the concept no matter how many times they are told by all sorts of different people.

Show me then, give me a game that you can prove was put out of business due to gambling crates that attracts the same sort of diversified customer and casual player base as ESO? That has the same passion and following of its lore over the years it has released titles. If you want to make accusations, back it up, I have a feeling I will find these games did not collapse due to gambling crates, but a multitude of reasons, but hey I am willing to look and admit if I am wrong.

Using the argument "All MMO's who have gone this way have gone downhill" seems silly to me. First of all how many MMO's are we using as a sample size? Anyone? Just "all of them" how many is this? 10? 100? 1000? sample size is very important for accurate statistics. Secondly, is ZOS implementing these in the same way? I understand they are not, so then we just assume that ZOS will follow the others into doom seems like flawed logic again, why would a business do this, its like following the Sears business model opening a new store, would that make sense as a business? Follow the failures? Give me a break.... Do you really believe ZOS is that inept and want to be bankrupt? Does not make sense at all in a business perspective, more likely fear mongering. Third, this is not a typical MMO, not everyone here plays it for being an MMO, there are many people here because its Elder Scrolls and has come after Skyrim, like it or not we have a very unique assortment of players and why they are playing, so using a cookie cutter approach to something so unique is again off IMO.

summitxho wrote: »

BuddyAces wrote: »

Callous2208 wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Callous2208 wrote: »

summitxho wrote: »

its the same people complaining about these in every thread, just a very passionate bunch is all. It either comes down to being against gambling, or being upset some cosmetic items are locked behind a gambling mechanic. Both have points as per their play style and how they enjoy the game, but it also sort of stinks of entitlement mentality, some people you just cannot make happy, that's life. The mentality that because I choose not to participate in something against my beliefs, you should not be able to take the chance to get it either I think is wrong, where I more believe in freedom of choice, if I want to spend crowns on a fun short lived gimmick, I worked hard to be able to make that choice. If people are threatening to quit over such a thing, I have a feeling they would leave the game over something eventually.

Once they are implemented, I will be very curious to see where this game goes, as for now I have faith in ZOS to run its business not the way one group wants it run, but to make money and keep rolling out new content. We will see.

If they succeed, they will be the first MMO to maintain a quality product after implementation of such systems. It will be interesting to see indeed. History would seem to show that it can't be done, or perhaps will not be done. These are businesses after all, and it is by far easier and more profitable to run a skinner box/gambling system, than it is to produce and maintain a fine product.

The gambling boxes are pretty irrelevant to whether they are producing a fine product. Just a bunch of costumes for you and your mount. That is like evaluating Hearthstone based on card backs.

Incorrect sir. You may have limited experience with mmorpgs and how this works however, I am not sure. The implementation of gambling boxes has never in the history of mmorpgs not soured the overall product as time passes. Content suffers, quality suffers. All focus and effort is put into new and creative ways to get you to gamble on these boxes. I realize this sounds farfetched or a bit over dramatic, but as I've said before, no other mmorpg to date has implemented such a feature and not suffered an extreme downturn in overall quality in every aspect except the cash shop. The marketing director ZOS hired, has worked on dozens of mmos in the same capacity, and each is widely considered to be a p2w title that is either dead or on life support. Gambling boxes, and how they shift a game developers focus, more often than not spell doom for that title. In the grander mmo community, it is seen as a last ditch effort to milk the remaining whales and loyal subscribers, as the game fades away into obscurity. People see gambling boxes, people roll their eyes and say here we go again. Then they leave the game and recommend that others never even start. I wish this weren't so. I wish ZOS would find a way to do things differently. Only time will tell. But surely you can see, given the precedence that's been set, why people are a bit uneasy about this subject.

Quoting you so in case some one missed it the first time. I don't understand how normal sensible people can read this and not grasp the concept no matter how many times they are told by all sorts of different people.

Show me then, give me a game that you can prove was put out of business due to gambling crates that attracts the same sort of diversified customer and casual player base as ESO? That has the same passion and following of its lore over the years it has released titles. If you want to make accusations, back it up, I have a feeling I will find these games did not collapse due to gambling crates, but a multitude of reasons, but hey I am willing to look and admit if I am wrong.

Using the argument "All MMO's who have gone this way have gone downhill" seems silly to me. First of all how many MMO's are we using as a sample size? Anyone? Just "all of them" how many is this? 10? 100? 1000? sample size is very important for accurate statistics. Secondly, is ZOS implementing these in the same way? I understand they are not, so then we just assume that ZOS will follow the others into doom seems like flawed logic again, why would a business do this, its like following the Sears business model opening a new store, would that make sense as a business? Follow the failures? Give me a break.... Do you really believe ZOS is that inept and want to be bankrupt? Does not make sense at all in a business perspective, more likely fear mongering. Third, this is not a typical MMO, not everyone here plays it for being an MMO, there are many people here because its Elder Scrolls and has come after Skyrim, like it or not we have a very unique assortment of players and why they are playing, so using a cookie cutter approach to something so unique is again off IMO.

Your right, many play this game because it's Elder Scrolls. I have played since Morrowind. However, I played most of the MMO's that the newly hired marketing person has worked on. I wouldn't recommend a single one.

As for success, it will be financially. The game will focus on getting as much money from people as they can in the short term, because most won't play it very long. It won't kill the game, but the game will not be in a good place for the loyal player base.