Making Staves an alternative for Dual-Swords in Magicka-plays

TheDarkRuler · October 2016

Right now the majority of high-DD-builds are using two-swords for getting the +% bonus of the Dual Wield.
Staves lack such a strength when it comes to pure damage bonus.

So here my suggestion for destruction staves. Rework of the passive Tri-Focus. This is what it is now:

Grants bonus affects based on the element used:
- Fully charged heavy fire attacks deal 12% additional damage.
- Fully charged heavy frost attacks grant a damage shield that absorbs 2[x] damage.
- Fully charged heavy shock attacks damage nearby enemies for 100% of the damage done.

This is what I would like to have it:

Grants bonus affects based on the element used:
- Fully charged heavy fire attacks deal 12% additional damage. Destruction Staff abilities deal 6% additional damage.
- Fully charged heavy frost attacks grant a damage shield that absorbs 2[x] damage for 6 seconds. Destruction Staff abilities have a 10% chance of giving a damage shield that absorbs [x] damage for 2 seconds.
- Fully charged heavy shock attacks damage nearby enemies for 100% of the damage done. Destruction Staff abilities hit enemies close for 20% of their original damage.

Dubhliam · October 2016

You're on the right track.

I believe a major reason people use dual swords is because they can complete two 5-piece sets and a 2-piece monster set that way.

If destro staff was to be buffed, it has to be done in such a way not to overpower those builds that currently use it, while making it a more viable choice for those that use dual swords.

It is not a bad suggestion.

If I was to suggest a change, I would go the other route, however.
I know people are not fond of nerfs, but too much buffs just pump the damage creep that is already out of control.

I'd suggest to rework the Twin Blade and Blunt passive:

Each sword increases your damage done by 2.5%Weapon damage by 5%

Then do the same with Heavy Weapons from 2h tree.

TheDarkRuler · October 2016

Well I believe it is ok if the dual wield remains its versatility.
There are good hybrid combos with Magicka on one side and using Dual Wield for Set Completion and Stamina replenishment. But there should be an alternative to get Magicka Damage with Magicka weaponry.

niawrathb16_ESO · October 2016

agree the above suggestions are the most likely and easily implemented solutions but I will put my wishful hat on and say I would love to have some magicka based 1h weapons e.g. wand with appropriate reductions to say range and damage for balance but I miss that extra set piece but i really dont like melee weapons.

Dubhliam · October 2016

TheDarkRuler wrote: »

Well I believe it is ok if the dual wield remains its versatility.
There are good hybrid combos with Magicka on one side and using Dual Wield for Set Completion and Stamina replenishment. But there should be an alternative to get Magicka Damage with Magicka weaponry.

I know, I actually use DW on my mag DK with destro on the backbar.
When I am in vMA however, it's destro on main bar, with resto on backbar.

But have a look at the other parts of DW (or 2H) passives - none of them benefit magicka, it is obviously designed to be a stamina weapon.

Maybe the above proposed change would be too big a nerf to swallow for many people.
I believe this would run better with the crowd:

Each sword increases your damage done by 2.5%1% and Weapon damage by 2.5%

Then do the same with Heavy Weapons passive from 2h tree.

Dubhliam · October 2016

niawrathb16_ESO wrote: »

agree the above suggestions are the most likely and easily implemented solutions but I will put my wishful hat on and say I would love to have some magicka based 1h weapons e.g. wand with appropriate reductions to say range and damage for balance but I miss that extra set piece but i really dont like melee weapons.

Exactly.
This is what magicka users are missing.

Maybe some new weapons like wands and/or orbs that can be slotted into one hand.

Cherryblossom · October 2016

I'd agree with the inclusion of wands which can be dual'd, it is the ability to have two 5 Piece sets that makes the difference.

Kryptonite_Kent · October 2016

You guys are overcomplicating this, you don't need to mess with dual wield nerfs or blah blah buffs... the SIMPLE solution is that MAGIC staves should give magic damage = or > PHYSICAL swords... or they should just remove swords giving you magic damage and make them only give you physical damage, which actually makes sense.

Morgul667 · October 2016

Do agree on the idea, it is weird running dual wield to cast better skills

Asmael · October 2016

Passing the fact I disagree on the first statement, as I can only think of melee magplars and overload sorcs, I'll still take it:

TheDarkRuler wrote: »

[snip]
This is what I would like to have it:
Fully charged heavy fire attacks deal 12% additional damage. Destruction Staff abilities deal 6% additional damage.

A straight buff to all destro abilities is definitely not an answer, not with the destro ult, elemental blockade and Force Pulse.

Destructive touch has been known for seeing very little use, due to his extremely low damage component, even on the fire morph, when even ground AoE abilities outDPS it. If you want more incentive to use the destro skill line, you might as well consider the weaker options and make them viable.

The other ability of the destro skill line renown for seeing literally no use in any decent build is Elemental Susceptibility (other morph of Elemental Drain). This ability needs a straight rework as there's no point using it right now.

TheDarkRuler wrote: »

Fully charged heavy frost attacks grant a damage shield that absorbs 2[x] damage for 6 seconds. Destruction Staff abilities have a 10% chance of giving a damage shield that absorbs [x] damage for 2 seconds.

I honestly don't see Cold being a competitive DPS element at any point, but that doesn't mean it has to be pushed this way, so I appreciate your take on defense and damage shields.

And the numbers could be increased, because be it PvE or PvP, the shields are very underwhelming.

TheDarkRuler wrote: »

Fully charged heavy shock attacks damage nearby enemies for 100% of the damage done. Destruction Staff abilities hit enemies close for 20% of their original damage.

Since lightning staves (and magicka users as a whole) are already largely ahead in the AoE department, I don't see a reason to buff their damage any further, so this is going to have my "nope".

-

I'd like to suggest a tweak to another passive as to further incentivize the "elemental proc" aspect of destro staves.

Before:

With Destruction Staff equipped:
- Increases your chance of afflicting enemies with Burning, Concussion, and Chilled status effects by 100%.

After:

With Destruction Staff equipped:
- Increases your chance of afflicting enemies with Burning, Concussion, and Chilled status effects by 100%. The chance of afficting enemies with elemental effects for a given type is instead increased by 175% based on your current staff element.

Talking from a pure PvE aspect, the damage increase from weaving is too good to pass on. Coming back to the reason why I disagree with the first statement and stated Overload sorcs and melee magplars as an exception:

Overload sorcs do not benefit from the usual staff weaving (light attacks), so they only get passive benefits from their current weapons.
Melee magplars rely on sweeps, which, due to the very long animation, don't get the same benefit from weaving, which is why it's not unreasonable to consider DW on the front bar.

dodgehopper_ESO · October 2016

I'd rather see them add Bound Weapons to the game than Wands.

Derra · October 2016

Twohanded Weapons, Bows and Staves account for two setitem slots as long as atleast one other item of that set is equipped.
Done.

LEGENDARYYY · October 2016

Its already been fixed with the spell damage proc sets burning spellweave and scathing. You can now run two sets with one on each staff and have a proc set back bar that transfers to main.

Say 5x bsw 5x mothers sorrow 2x illambris

TheDarkRuler · October 2016

@LEGENDARYYY
Those are bandaids. They don't fix the root of the problem!

Enslaved · October 2016

What would be really great is a new weapon skill line called wand. That way, magicka builds could dual wield wands or combine wand with some one handed weapon. I would make this skill line very versatile, so depending on what you have in your main hand you could use destruction/restoration skills or dual wield skills. if used as off hand, you would lose some passives from DW, and if used as main hand, some passives from DS/RS would not work either. If combined with shield, wand could not be used for ransack/heroic slash and their other morphs, but you could get benefit from other 1HS abilities and ulti.

Bigevilpeter · October 2016

Enslaved wrote: »

What would be really great is a new weapon skill line called wand. That way, magicka builds could dual wield wands or combine wand with some one handed weapon. I would make this skill line very versatile, so depending on what you have in your main hand you could use destruction/restoration skills or dual wield skills. if used as off hand, you would lose some passives from DW, and if used as main hand, some passives from DS/RS would not work either. If combined with shield, wand could not be used for ransack/heroic slash and their other morphs, but you could get benefit from other 1HS abilities and ulti.

Wands and orbs from diablo :P

Derra · October 2016

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

Its already been fixed with the spell damage proc sets burning spellweave and scathing. You can now run two sets with one on each staff and have a proc set back bar that transfers to main.

Say 5x bsw 5x mothers sorrow 2x illambris

So you no longer have a maelstrom weapon (because the setup you´re referring to is obviously meant for pve).

Or (edit: for pvp) do you suggest lets say a sorc has a burning spellweave resto stave on backbar and enchants that with a flame entchantment to maybe get a procc? Or lightattacks with scathing until it fires?

Mordenkainen · October 2016

TheDarkRuler wrote: »

Right now the majority of high-DD-builds are using two-swords for getting the +% bonus of the Dual Wield.
Staves lack such a strength when it comes to pure damage bonus.

So here my suggestion for destruction staves. Rework of the passive Tri-Focus. This is what it is now:
Grants bonus affects based on the element used:
Fully charged heavy fire attacks deal 12% additional damage.

Fully charged heavy frost attacks grant a damage shield that absorbs 2[x] damage.

Fully charged heavy shock attacks damage nearby enemies for 100% of the damage done.

This is what I would like to have it:
Grants bonus affects based on the element used:
Fully charged heavy fire attacks deal 12% additional damage. Destruction Staff abilities deal 6% additional damage.

Fully charged heavy frost attacks grant a damage shield that absorbs 2[x] damage for 6 seconds. Destruction Staff abilities have a 10% chance of giving a damage shield that absorbs [x] damage for 2 seconds.

Fully charged heavy shock attacks damage nearby enemies for 100% of the damage done. Destruction Staff abilities hit enemies close for 20% of their original damage.

While a good thought, very good even, there's one issue with this.

The Fire stave passive needs an entirely different effect.

The 12% additional damage makes them superior in absolute most cases compared to all other staves.
The only actual reason to use a Lightning staff for example is as sorcerer to proc implosion frequently on low health enemies, if as sorcerer you wouldn't be hammering them to begin with, with Endless Fury for some reason. Another would be light-attack weaving as some find it easier with lightning staves instead of fire staves. (And with light attacks the passive doesn't matter anyway)

The shield Frost staves grant is if anything, gone as soon as anything even looks at you in a dungeon or trial run. Having Destruction skills proc that shield with a 10% chance however can make this useable as buffer in quite a few situations considering the frequency it would likely proc, so that isn't too bad of an idea actually.

As it stands currently however, the only time we use a fully charged heavy attack is when we want damage and that is delivered by fire staves only, forcing essentially the majority of players to use fire staves in order to be viable in those moments we really use a full charged heavy attack.

Here's the catch. Not everyone likes fire.

You read correct. This is purely a cosmetical issue in the end. But none of us would play a fantasy game like ESO if we wouldn't want to have that lightning come out of our characters finger tips.

Not all people prefer that lightning to look the same however. So here is my suggestion.

The +12% damage bonus should be included for all staff types and fire staves should get this:

Fully charged heavy fire attacks have a 50% chance to generate 3 ultimate.

This would make all staves viable and also quite situational. Not all classes have the same ultimate gain speed so fire staves would assist in that regard without particular hurting if the player uses lightning or frost instead.

Well and then beefing staves a bit more up in general. There isn't even enarly as much bonuses for spell damage as there is for weapon damage in terms of skills and other options in the game. Make Stamriel Tamriel again please.

Just my 2 cents.

Birdovic · October 2016

Or, let me repost my suggestion:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/298251/a-new-day-a-new-suggestion-to-improve-staves#latest

mtwiggz · October 2016

Would like to see a completely new "staff" tree for magicka users.

As in;

Wand and Lore (dual wield)
Dual Wand (dual wield)

Then give each of the two trees different abilities. Stamina has 4 weapon options as magicka users only have 2. One of which is restoration for purely healing.

This would bring things more on par with the options stamina users have. Perhaps even bringing some decent balance to the field of play if the skills are thought out and balanced correctly.

IMO, the combat is starting, or has been, stale for quite some time for any of us beta players. The only real changes we've had are a few skills here and there and new sets. Nothing has been added as far as active skills, minus the new ultimates.

Mettaricana · October 2016

Wishful fix but after this update I can't see them fixing anything more complex than a voice over bug

br0steen · October 2016

Dubhliam wrote: »

I'd suggest to rework the Twin Blade and Blunt passive:
Each sword increases your damage done by 2.5%Weapon damage by 5%

Then do the same with Heavy Weapons from 2h tree.

This doesn't boost damage of Magicka attacks, dual wield just happens to provide more spell damage and people use it mainly to get that second 5 piece set. So this wouldn't actually change anything... Should it read more clearly? Ya probably.

Dubhliam · October 2016

mtwiggz wrote: »

Then give each of the two trees different abilities. Stamina has 4 weapon options as magicka users only have 2. One of which is restoration for purely healing.

Well, if we are to look at loot tables, those would indicate a ratio of 8:4 (1:2) in favor of physical weapons, shields excluded.
The ratio is the same as the skill line ratio, but 3 out of 4 magical weapons are for the Destruction staff skill line.

The real problem here is that both Ice staves and Lightning staves are not considered viable.
ZOS would have to rework the passives of the Destruction staff skill line to bring out the versatility of destruction staves.
Leave Flame passives as they are, but add more flavor and utility to Lightning and Ice staves.
Simply put: make them viable.

builder680 · October 2016

Why can't 2h just count as 2 pieces of a set?

Dymence · October 2016

Derra wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

Its already been fixed with the spell damage proc sets burning spellweave and scathing. You can now run two sets with one on each staff and have a proc set back bar that transfers to main.

Say 5x bsw 5x mothers sorrow 2x illambris

So you no longer have a maelstrom weapon (because the setup you´re referring to is obviously meant for pve).

Or do you suggest lets say a sorc has a burning spellweave resto stave on backbar and enchants that with a flame entchantment to maybe get a procc? Or lightattacks with scathing until it fires?

Since you're talking PVE, why would a sorc have a resto on his offbar?

Silver_Strider · October 2016

Give me dual wield magic Chakrams, like the Amalur series, and I'll be happy.

TheDarkRuler · October 2016

@Silver_Strider
Amalur... oh those good old times. I [SNIP] love them.
Btw Amalur... it had those one-handed wands too right?

[Edited to remove profanity]

LEGENDARYYY · October 2016

Derra wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

Its already been fixed with the spell damage proc sets burning spellweave and scathing. You can now run two sets with one on each staff and have a proc set back bar that transfers to main.

Say 5x bsw 5x mothers sorrow 2x illambris

So you no longer have a maelstrom weapon (because the setup you´re referring to is obviously meant for pve).

Or do you suggest lets say a sorc has a burning spellweave resto stave on backbar and enchants that with a flame entchantment to maybe get a procc? Or lightattacks with scathing until it fires?

When I get bsw ill gladly sacrifice msa staves for an average ~380 spell dmg proc + spell dmg echant proc that transfer to my main bar.

With bsw on back bar you can put down wall of elements, activate ur other buffs like storm, surge, basic attacks whatever and within that time have it proc, then swap to main where u have a new 5 piece bonus.

I have yet to test this cause with the current RNG its nearly impossible to get bsw fire staff.

Silver_Strider · October 2016

TheDarkRuler wrote: »

@Silver_Strider
Amalur... oh those good old times. I f***ing love them.
Btw Amalur... it had those one-handed wands too right?

@TheDarkRuler
Chakrams and Faeblades were the greatest in that game. Yes, it did have 1h wands although I was too busy hacking people to bits with my OP Chakrams to bother playing with them

Derra · October 2016

Dymence wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

Its already been fixed with the spell damage proc sets burning spellweave and scathing. You can now run two sets with one on each staff and have a proc set back bar that transfers to main.

Say 5x bsw 5x mothers sorrow 2x illambris

So you no longer have a maelstrom weapon (because the setup you´re referring to is obviously meant for pve).

Or do you suggest lets say a sorc has a burning spellweave resto stave on backbar and enchants that with a flame entchantment to maybe get a procc? Or lightattacks with scathing until it fires?

Since you're talking PVE, why would a sorc have a resto on his offbar?

Sry the second part of that was obviously pvp related - as thats about the only context where the setup proposed would make any form of sense atleast in theory. Edited that in.

crashen17b14_ESO · October 2016

1. Wands are boring. Woo a little stick that shoots sparks. And dual wielding them? Really? Does anyone realize how ridiculous that would look?
2. One hand and orb? Also kind of weird, but not as bad.

My solution would be three-fold.
1. Sharpened/precise stamina weapons ONLY affect stamina abilities. Likewise Heavy Weapons & Twin Blade and Blunt only affect stamina abilities.
2. Two handed weapons of any sort (bow, staff, 2h weapon) count as two set pieces, if you have three other pieces already.
3. Introduce two new weapon types and skill lines: Bound Weapon and I dont know, orb, spellfocus, runeward, whatever.

Bound weapons could be dual wielded together, for melee magicka similar to regular dual wield, or could be wielded with a spellfocus, which focuses on a mix of melee and ranged attacks, possibly with morphs that can be defensive, possibly as a ward like in skyrim.

These weapons drop just like any other weapon, but can not be wielded with stamina weapons. You can only dual wield them, or wield them with the runeward/spellfocus. The purpose of the spellfocus/bound weapon is to create a sort of melee/range hybrid.

Likewise, similar to how there are axes, maces, swords and daggers, you could either have bound variations of them... or....

Bound Aedric, Daedric, or Celestial weapons. Probably similar passives as regular weapons. Aedric punches through physical/spell resistance (and maybe through shields and blocking), daedric has increased status chance and status damage maybe, and celestial has increased crit chance or damage.

The passive traits i am not sure on, but i like the idea of different types of bound weapons. Daedric sword, aedric javelin, celestial axe.