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4 Downsides of PvP that will Never Change (but You're Tired of)

Alpheu5
Alpheu5
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Before I get into the details, I should note that I find fighting in Cyrodiil to be very enjoyable, and care very much for the overall health of the game in both PvE and PvP. Not everything is perfect, and there are definitely some parts that could do with improvements, tweaks, or just plain removal. However, many posts on these forums and complaints I see in-game regarding balance stem from one of four roots, which will always continue the spiral of discontent since nothing will ever please everybody.

1. Group-Focus Maneuvers

The nature of PvP in ESO encourages medium- to large-group play for the majority of the war. This is nothing new. "Zerg vs. Zerg" is to be expected when you have such a high quantity of players fighting. On paper, 24 vs. 24 seems like a fair and balanced fight. In practice, this is hardly the case. Players, especially those new to the environment, gravitate toward whoever they see being attacked to aid the fight as best they can. So, rather than 24 players' attacks being distributed across ±18 players, oftentimes the firepower is turned on 7 or 8 players. It doesn't matter how good the healers of the group are, if a player with 23,000 health starts receiving 22,000 damage per second, that player is as good as dead. This effect is more pronounced when dealing with organized groups on voice channels, as then the entire raid's focus tends to go to one target at a time.

Resulting from this magnification of damage comes the appeal of the mega-tank builds: the ability to withstand an entire raid's abuse while dealing a minimal amount of offense. Now some players, healers in particular, are able to keep their group members standing while another group doles out their moves on this now-invincible tank. As more and more players adapt a turtle-mode method of play, more damage dealers sacrifice defense in order to invest more into damage, resulting in the famed "glass-cannon" builds. With a few of them, the most sturdy of tank builds crumble before the sheer force of the combined effort.

2. Uncompromising players

Some tanks begin to say that they want a way to fight back against the opposition while keeping their rigidity, seeming to forget that they had to give up most of their offense to push more into defense. Alternatively, glass cannons that get focused on in group play or are outnumbered in the open world, and die, say that they want a way to defend while keeping their damage output. These are both cases of players that want the best of both worlds without having to give up on what they can already do. Of course, it's common sense from a balance point to not have this as an available option, but there are those that insist (and also those that provide).

3. "I would have won if..."

I have no problem admitting that I'm guilty of having this mentality a multitude of times when the reality is the defeat was inevitable. If you are not familiar with it:
  • Player gets into fight.
  • Player loses fight.
  • Player sees loss as unjustified.
  • Player thinks a different scenario would have resulted in a victory.
There are instances where it is true, such as "I would have won if they didn't dodge that execute." or "I would have beaten them if 13 of their teammates didn't come running around the corner." A lot of the time, the recipient was outplayed by a more skilled player. Unfortunately, some cases are due in part to genuinely unbalanced aspects of the game, so the "nerf this/buff that" comments that come about from unhappy players that lost to a more skilled player get mixed together with the "nerf this/buff that" comments addressing the actual issues with the game, and there's no way to filter which one is which.

4. The "Oddjob Effect"

latest?cb=20081116151915

If you ever grew up playing Goldeneye 64 multiplayer, you're already super familiar with the totally-unfair Oddjob, no "maybe" about it. Much frustration came about by this little fellow for one simple reason: he was short. He was a short man with a short hitbox in a game where being able to point the camera along the Y-axis while shooting was almost worthy of an Olympic medal. House rules virtually everywhere dictated that he was not to be used, lest ye be seen as a friend worth naught.

Those who did use him were the types who wanted to win at any cost, regardless of the method. If a mechanic is broken/overpowered, no matter how cheap it may be to use it, you can bet they will be including it in their arsenal, resulting in what I like to call the "Oddjob Effect", a collection of players that intentionally use these tactics to come out on top. Some may say "If you don't use this thing that gives you an obvious advantage, you're just gimping yourself. L2P." That may be true in some cases (using white non-set items instead of improved and enchanted set items), but there comes a point where a player has to acknowledge that they are using features in a game that are resulting in unintended, unpleasant, and imbalanced conclusions. With a game as big as ESO is, I know there's no way unspoken rules are going to catch on every patch. A few times you'll see people getting scorned for using specific setups, but there's nothing consequential to them as a player. Some randoms see them as cheap, who cares? They're still winning.

———

Why did I make this post? I felt the need to outline a few thoughts I've been having regarding the way some people are behaving and why this eternal strive for "perfect balance" is in vain. There is no "separate but equal" totality to reach. There will always be players that refuse to acknowledge that they are the problem they are complaining about, ones that want their corner of the game brought up to their standards with a disregard for the parts they neglect/ignore, and those who want to win at all costs. Competition isn't about winning at all costs, or every sport would be the same gameplay, with a different ball and goal.
Edited by Alpheu5 on October 23, 2016 9:28AM
Dalek-Rok - Argonian Sorcerer || Dalek-Shād - Argonian Nightblade || Dalek-Shul - Argonian Templar || Dalek-Xal - Argonian Dragonknight || Mounts-the-Snout - Argonian Warden || Dalek-Xul - Argonian Necromancer || Two-Spires - Argonian Arcanist || Dalek-Nesh - Argonian Sorcerer || Dalek-Kör - Argonian Dragonknight
Don't incorporate bugs into your builds, and you won't have [an] issue.
  • RebornV3x
    RebornV3x
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    Having 3 alliances- Why even have 3 alliances in the game when 90% of the time PVP ends up being a 2v1 any ways might as well make it official and have 2 alliances so it's a 1v1
    Xbox One - NA GT: RebornV3x
    I also play on PC from time to time but I just wanna be left alone on there so sorry.
  • Curtdogg47
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    Nice post! I love the oddjob reference!
  • Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO
    Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO
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    PvP will never be as good as it used to be at launch.
    @Solar_Breeze
    NA ~ Izanerys: Dracarys (Videos | Dracast)
    EU ~ Izanagi: Banana Squad (AOE Rats/ Zerg Squad / Roleplay Circle)
  • Dreyloch
    Dreyloch
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    RebornV3x wrote: »
    Having 3 alliances- Why even have 3 alliances in the game when 90% of the time PVP ends up being a 2v1 any ways might as well make it official and have 2 alliances so it's a 1v1

    So you'd rather have every server be one color? Because that's what would happen if it was only 2 factions. Having 3 makes it so there's not a complete and total domination effect across every server. Everyone would move to the winning side and the game dies very quickly. Can't pvp with no one to fight lol.
    "The fear of Death, is often worse than death itself"
  • xeNNNNN
    xeNNNNN
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    Right now the think im most tired of is the blues and yellows teaming up all the time the so called "green alliance" its not everyone from DC and AD of course most will kill eachother on site, but you get so sick of it after a while when you realize you could of won alessia and took the keep if the blues hadnt just stampeeded through at random then let the yellows ress.

    Dont get me wrong that was going to happen between alliances some how its just....well its getting stale and probably wont ever change *sigh*.
    Ah, e-communities - the "pinnacle" of the internet............yeah, right.
  • Derra
    Derra
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    Sneak.

    I don´t think it should be possible to be permanently invisible on every class and spec in a pvp game without cost or downside.
    <Noricum>
    I live. I die. I live again.

    Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
    Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 50

  • MaximillianDiE
    MaximillianDiE
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    1. AOE Caps - hate it but its a dead horse

    2. Lag - say no more

    3. Ping advantage - I play Oceanic so have a huge disadvantage against the sub 50 ping folk who live close to the server with my 250 ping just in terms of being able to react as quickly and the difficulty of weaving and the like. That said they won't give us Oceanic servers so no use crying about it now after all this time - just focus on my game and enjoy it.

    4. One shots out of stealth. Not being able to react and be killed before you can do something meta is a PITA. But its there so kudos to the best of gankers as they are quite something to be on the receiving end of their love and attention (tips hat to Sribes and Smiff) while they excel at using the tools at their disposal.
    Edited by MaximillianDiE on October 25, 2016 10:26PM
    Maximillian Die Caesar - DC - [K-Hole] Retired
    Maximillian AD [[DiE]
    Retired
  • thankyourat
    thankyourat
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    Derra wrote: »
    Sneak.

    I don´t think it should be possible to be permanently invisible on every class and spec in a pvp game without cost or downside.

    I mean sneak cost stamina so if you get caught you'll start the fight with less stamina that's incredibly dangerous for a magicka build, and cloak sucks I just took it off my bar again on my magblade this time for good. Until ambush doesn't break cloak anymore it's useless.
  • Toast_STS
    Toast_STS
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    4. The "Oddjob Effect"

    latest?cb=20081116151915

    If you ever grew up playing Goldeneye 64 multiplayer, you're already super familiar with the totally-unfair Oddjob, no "maybe" about it. Much frustration came about by this little fellow for one simple reason: he was short. He was a short man with a short hitbox in a game where being able to point the camera along the Y-axis while shooting was almost worthy of an Olympic medal. House rules virtually everywhere dictated that he was not to be used, lest ye be seen as a friend worth naught.

    [/quote]
    If you choose the honeywell control scheme in Golden Eye the controls become the same as turok's, or more similar to Halo if you didn't play turok. So you could look up and down with the joystick and move with the c button. Makes heads shots on oddjob really easy. Sorry for the tangent, I just miss the, "No Screen Watching!" days.
    VR14 DK Leaps-in-keeps
  • Derra
    Derra
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    Derra wrote: »
    Sneak.

    I don´t think it should be possible to be permanently invisible on every class and spec in a pvp game without cost or downside.

    I mean sneak cost stamina so if you get caught you'll start the fight with less stamina that's incredibly dangerous for a magicka build, and cloak sucks I just took it off my bar again on my magblade this time for good. Until ambush doesn't break cloak anymore it's useless.

    Just that i understand you right: Are you really telling me that it´s incredibly dangerous to use a mechanic that drains your stamina while moving invisible to the enemy but lets you regenerate the second you stop moving? Just to make sure we´re on the same page.
    It´s not that it´s permanently draining stamina (which i think it should). You can just stop moving and your stam will regenerate. You´re really telling me that something that is 100% a user error is a downside to that mechanic?

    Cause if that´s the case you could aswell complain that your car does not automatically turn once you´ve hit the turn signal.
    <Noricum>
    I live. I die. I live again.

    Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
    Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 50

  • KisoValley
    KisoValley
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    Oddjob xd
  • thankyourat
    thankyourat
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    Derra wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    Sneak.

    I don´t think it should be possible to be permanently invisible on every class and spec in a pvp game without cost or downside.

    I mean sneak cost stamina so if you get caught you'll start the fight with less stamina that's incredibly dangerous for a magicka build, and cloak sucks I just took it off my bar again on my magblade this time for good. Until ambush doesn't break cloak anymore it's useless.

    Just that i understand you right: Are you really telling me that it´s incredibly dangerous to use a mechanic that drains your stamina while moving invisible to the enemy but lets you regenerate the second you stop moving? Just to make sure we´re on the same page.
    It´s not that it´s permanently draining stamina (which i think it should). You can just stop moving and your stam will regenerate. You´re really telling me that something that is 100% a user error is a downside to that mechanic?

    Cause if that´s the case you could aswell complain that your car does not automatically turn once you´ve hit the turn signal.

    I consider losing my stamina a huge downside I don't know about you. What if I need to fight I'm starting off with a lower stamina pool that's such a big disadvantage that in most cases it just not worth sneaking. And then cloak is a useless skill I don't even use it anymore it doesn't work, it cost to much and you can't do damage if you are sneaking around. for sneak to be so useless 95% of the time, it draining your stamina is plenty penalty for what the mechanic actually does
  • Derra
    Derra
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    Derra wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    Sneak.

    I don´t think it should be possible to be permanently invisible on every class and spec in a pvp game without cost or downside.

    I mean sneak cost stamina so if you get caught you'll start the fight with less stamina that's incredibly dangerous for a magicka build, and cloak sucks I just took it off my bar again on my magblade this time for good. Until ambush doesn't break cloak anymore it's useless.

    Just that i understand you right: Are you really telling me that it´s incredibly dangerous to use a mechanic that drains your stamina while moving invisible to the enemy but lets you regenerate the second you stop moving? Just to make sure we´re on the same page.
    It´s not that it´s permanently draining stamina (which i think it should). You can just stop moving and your stam will regenerate. You´re really telling me that something that is 100% a user error is a downside to that mechanic?

    Cause if that´s the case you could aswell complain that your car does not automatically turn once you´ve hit the turn signal.

    I consider losing my stamina a huge downside I don't know about you. What if I need to fight I'm starting off with a lower stamina pool that's such a big disadvantage that in most cases it just not worth sneaking. And then cloak is a useless skill I don't even use it anymore it doesn't work, it cost to much and you can't do damage if you are sneaking around. for sneak to be so useless 95% of the time, it draining your stamina is plenty penalty for what the mechanic actually does

    If you start a fight from sneak with less than 80% stamina it´s entirely your own fault though.
    It´s not the mechanic having a drawback. It´s the user being too stupid to properly use the mechanic. If used with a brain that drawback will never kick in.
    <Noricum>
    I live. I die. I live again.

    Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
    Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 50

  • moonio
    moonio
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    @Alpheu5
    '1. Group-Focus Maneuvers

    The nature of PvP in ESO encourages medium- to large-group play for the majority of the war. This is nothing new. "Zerg vs. Zerg" is to be expected when you have such a high quantity of players'

    Not true, only EP and AD fight like that (the Dape style of fighting). In DC we prefer to be Dope, and we are at our best when several solo players come together (ungrouped) and begin working as a unit.. I have seen entire zergs wiped out in this situation. Skilled and smart players don't need to rely on zergs, OP or proc sets etc etc
    In fact a blue dc zerg is so rare that its referred to as the Wild Hunt.. and beware any Dape players that get in our way... :open_mouth:
    Just a poor healer from Glenumbra..
  • Maikon
    Maikon
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    xeNNNNN wrote: »
    Right now the think im most tired of is the blues and yellows teaming up all the time the so called "green alliance" its not everyone from DC and AD of course most will kill eachother on site, but you get so sick of it after a while when you realize you could of won alessia and took the keep if the blues hadnt just stampeeded through at random then let the yellows ress.

    Dont get me wrong that was going to happen between alliances some how its just....well its getting stale and probably wont ever change *sigh*.

    AD and DC teaming up? That must be Trueflame, cause that *** will never happen in BwB, and very rarely if ever in Azuras.
  • Maikon
    Maikon
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    moonio wrote: »
    @Alpheu5
    '1. Group-Focus Maneuvers

    The nature of PvP in ESO encourages medium- to large-group play for the majority of the war. This is nothing new. "Zerg vs. Zerg" is to be expected when you have such a high quantity of players'

    Not true, only EP and AD fight like that (the Dape style of fighting). In DC we prefer to be Dope, and we are at our best when several solo players come together (ungrouped) and begin working as a unit.. I have seen entire zergs wiped out in this situation. Skilled and smart players don't need to rely on zergs, OP or proc sets etc etc
    In fact a blue dc zerg is so rare that its referred to as the Wild Hunt.. and beware any Dape players that get in our way... :open_mouth:

    DC zerg is rare? LOL all DC ever does in Azuras is zerg.
  • Chori
    Chori
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    we get it Derra we get, a nightblade killed you
    EP NA-PC - Invictus - Odem Mortis
    1. Stamina NB Cat - ChoriB'Good
    2. Magicka NB High Elf - Lîndara
    3. Stam Sorc High Elf - Lindara Moonlight
    4. Red Guard Stamina DK - Chorî
    5. Red Guard Stamina Templar - Choripaninikinnie
    6. Magplar High Elf - Vagitarian Sillonour
    Don't tell me you lag, I play with 200-300 ms all the time ^_^
  • RebornV3x
    RebornV3x
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    Dreyloch wrote: »
    RebornV3x wrote: »
    Having 3 alliances- Why even have 3 alliances in the game when 90% of the time PVP ends up being a 2v1 any ways might as well make it official and have 2 alliances so it's a 1v1

    So you'd rather have every server be one color? Because that's what would happen if it was only 2 factions. Having 3 makes it so there's not a complete and total domination effect across every server. Everyone would move to the winning side and the game dies very quickly. Can't pvp with no one to fight lol.

    Most of the time I log in to TESO at least on Xbox One NA the map is usually split up into 2 factions anyways usually 2 alliance might be even with one alliance just barley holding there home gate keeps I just want to make it official already usually the two stronger alliances team up to push the weaker alliance and after a while it just gets stale especially when people are openly allied and not attacking each other I rarely see a 3 way battle in Cyrodill. So once more why even have 3 alliances when you have 2 alliances that won't push each other but will gladly push the weak alliance.

    Edited by RebornV3x on October 28, 2016 4:54AM
    Xbox One - NA GT: RebornV3x
    I also play on PC from time to time but I just wanna be left alone on there so sorry.
  • Sugaroverdose
    Sugaroverdose
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    1. Wrobel
    2. Wrobel
    3. Wrobel
    4. Wrobel

  • Knootewoot
    Knootewoot
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    I would have read that entire post if i wasn't lagging so much
    ٩(͡๏̯͡๏)۶
    "I am a nightblade. Blending the disciplines of the stealthy agent and subtle wizard, I move unseen and undetected, foil locks and traps, and teleport to safety when threatened, or strike like a viper from ambush. The College of Illusion hides me and fuddles or pacifies my opponents. The College of Mysticism detects my object, reflects and dispels enemy spells, and makes good my escape. The key to a nightblade's success is avoidance, by spell or by stealth; with these skills, all things are possible."
  • Komma
    Komma
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    Surprised you failed to mention the hackers. While the number of these in the game can be argued the fact they are there can not. Maybe these fall under the win at all cost crowd but just by running this in an mmo you have already lost. You have already admitted that you are an average or worse player. You suck at games and at life. The hackers always make the excuse that everyone else is doing it. Maybe they feel it is their balance to the zergs. Find someone running around being beaten by 10+ people, taking little to no dmg that still have the burst to take you down in one macro motion. Here you will find a non legit player. Find a dk who gets beaten down to nothing then runs around a tree and complete heals while taking no dmg the last 10% of their health. Again a non legit player. Some may believe these are from their amazing builds but play the game and know what is doable and what isnt and you may see the light.
    Kohma Kozzy-cr160-Stamblade
    Komma-cr160-Magicblade
    Komma the Great-cr160-Stam DK
    Kommah-cr160-Mag DK
    Komma Kozzy-cr160-Mag Templar
    Kommuh Kozzy-cr160-Stam Templar
    Komma the White-cr160-Mag Sorc
    The Tazmanian Devil-cr160-Stamsorc
    OTG
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