Bug, or Magicka Dragonknight Stealth Nerf?

vortexman11 · October 2016

Any mDK that has played this game within the past 2 years has come to learn one basic thing when playing their class. When you root an enemy you then proceed to get behind them while DPSing in order to avoid damage and other things. Yet there has always been counters to this, a few select skills such as Burning Breath for example, and heavy attacks have had the ability to turn you around while in this root. Now it seems after some quick testing that almost all skills have the ability to turn a player around to face their target while in talons. As I tested this with my sorc I can only list these for now...

Light Attacks
Bashes
Heavy Attacks
Curse
Frags
Crushing Shock
Healing Ward
Daedric Mines

My question to the ZOS is if this is intended or a bug @ZOS_GinaBruno @Wrobel @ZOS_JessicaFolsom . While my question to the ESO community is if you think that it should remain like this. Players have always seemed split in their opinion on talons being overpowered or not which made me not want to make this post at first, but you have to understand that Dragonknights are meant to excel at controlling the movement of people on the battlefield with the use of CCs, changes like this are pretty much a direct nerf to that.

Kilandros · October 2016

Immobilize needs to prevent players from turning, or else what's the point? DK skills require us to remain in melee range so it doesn't help us much to immobilize an enemy who can continue attacking us as if nothing happened.

Skyy · October 2016

I noticed it too, thought maybe I was just mis-remembering not being able to turn around.

NBrookus · October 2016

I've noticed even NPCs do this. Like they aren't there. Really, what's the point of talons if they don't hold someone?

Master_Kas · October 2016

Kilandros wrote: »

Immobilize needs to prevent players from turning, or else what's the point? DK skills require us to remain in melee range so it doesn't help us much to immobilize an enemy who can continue attacking us as if nothing happened.

Because spending time permanently rooted is fun. Right.

Not everybody plays shufflemonkey builds with free immunity.

Alucardo · October 2016

Having the ability to perma root someone, and in essence, removing control of their own character, it should have some limitations. All immobilizations should work like this, not just talons. Trap beast, bombard, encase, frost clench, etc.
It's god damn annoying when I can't control my own player just because I refuse to run shuffle. Even on my templar when I purge a root, they just place it back on me again.
You want a CC that renders them unable to face you? Then use a knock down, like stonefist, or use one of the best CCs in the game that you have at your disposal - fossilze. Unfortunately they do have an immunity cooldown and can't spam it every second to hold someone down. I'm really sorry about that.

arkansas_ESO · October 2016

It's been this way for a long time, I remember being able to turn in Talons with heavy resto attacks way back in 1.2 or 1.3.

Also, probably shouldn't buff immobilizes until we give them some sort of cooldown. Nobody likes being permanently rooted the entire fight, and DKs shouldn't lean so heavily on Talons as they do now.

Kartalin · October 2016

I could never NOT turn and fight when I played in first person.

Kilandros · October 2016

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

It's been this way for a long time, I remember being able to turn in Talons with heavy resto attacks way back in 1.2 or 1.3.

Also, probably shouldn't buff immobilizes until we give them some sort of cooldown. Nobody likes being permanently rooted the entire fight, and DKs shouldn't lean so heavily on Talons as they do now.

It's pretty much all mDK has. mDK has no strong self heal; no execute; no escape other than mist form. We have DoTs which can be purged and one burst skill that generally feels weak because we're forced to spec so heavily into defense. The ability to keep opponents controlled/CC'd is literally the ONLY strength mDK really has right now. So please tell me more about how we shouldn't lean on that.

NBrookus · October 2016

Kilandros wrote: »

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

It's been this way for a long time, I remember being able to turn in Talons with heavy resto attacks way back in 1.2 or 1.3.

Also, probably shouldn't buff immobilizes until we give them some sort of cooldown. Nobody likes being permanently rooted the entire fight, and DKs shouldn't lean so heavily on Talons as they do now.

It's pretty much all mDK has. mDK has no strong self heal; no execute; no escape other than mist form. We have DoTs which can be purged and one burst skill that generally feels weak because we're forced to spec so heavily into defense. The ability to keep opponents controlled/CC'd is literally the ONLY strength mDK really has right now. So please tell me more about how we shouldn't lean on that.

This. And no functioning gap closer. If we can't keep our opponents in one place, we usually can't kill them.

Magus · October 2016

Kilandros wrote: »

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

It's been this way for a long time, I remember being able to turn in Talons with heavy resto attacks way back in 1.2 or 1.3.

Also, probably shouldn't buff immobilizes until we give them some sort of cooldown. Nobody likes being permanently rooted the entire fight, and DKs shouldn't lean so heavily on Talons as they do now.

It's pretty much all mDK has. mDK has no strong self heal; no execute; no escape other than mist form. We have DoTs which can be purged and one burst skill that generally feels weak because we're forced to spec so heavily into defense. The ability to keep opponents controlled/CC'd is literally the ONLY strength mDK really has right now. So please tell me more about how we shouldn't lean on that.

Agree with most of this. Only contention is the heal. Power lash is close to vigor, burning embers functions like a rally but can be purged off, and deep breath is a great burst heal assuming you have 3+ targets on you. Main issue is lack of an execute and spell cost for sustain. Dragonblood is useless unless you are using it for the minor vitality buff. If they ever buff dragonblood to a breath of life equivalent, good luck killing dragon knights if they build correctly and use the 1h and shield ultimate.

Edit: which is basically the stamina kit with less damage lol

Derra · October 2016

All singletargetted abilities i could use as a sorc always turned your character towards the desired target - or atleast could always be used even when the character model did not turn. The only exception i can think of personally would be jabs which is a nontargetted channeled aoe...

vortexman11 · October 2016

Derra wrote: »

All singletargetted abilities i could use as a sorc always turned your character towards the desired target - or atleast could always be used even when the character model did not turn. The only exception i can think of personally would be jabs which is a nontargetted channeled aoe...

From what I've experienced in the past, most/all ranged abilities could target them no matter which direction you faced in a root, but it never physically turned your character towards them, this was only possible with heavy attacks and a few other skills. Now it seems almost all abilities are physically turning your character towards the desired target, this includes skills such as jabs which is a channeled AoE that doesn't even need a target as you said, and healing ward which doesn't even make sense to turn your character around with....

Alucardo wrote: »

Having the ability to perma root someone, and in essence, removing control of their own character, it should have some limitations. All immobilizations should work like this, not just talons. Trap beast, bombard, encase, frost clench, etc.

Rooting someone DOES NOT remove total control of their character, as I said above there were still ways to turn around while in roots, but the fact that you can simply use any ability now and turn to face your target removes any skillful counterplay to roots, and I know ZOS is slowly trying to remove all forms of skillful counterplay so Im starting to think this might be intended

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

It's been this way for a long time, I remember being able to turn in Talons with heavy resto attacks way back in 1.2 or 1.3.

I know, I said you've almost always been able to turn with heavy attacks.

arkansas_ESO · October 2016

Kilandros wrote: »

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

It's been this way for a long time, I remember being able to turn in Talons with heavy resto attacks way back in 1.2 or 1.3.

Also, probably shouldn't buff immobilizes until we give them some sort of cooldown. Nobody likes being permanently rooted the entire fight, and DKs shouldn't lean so heavily on Talons as they do now.

It's pretty much all mDK has. mDK has no strong self heal; no execute; no escape other than mist form. We have DoTs which can be purged and one burst skill that generally feels weak because we're forced to spec so heavily into defense. The ability to keep opponents controlled/CC'd is literally the ONLY strength mDK really has right now. So please tell me more about how we shouldn't lean on that.

I'm saying that permanently rooting somebody is boring to watch, boring to fight against, and makes magic DK boring to play. If the class needs a rework, then so be it.

Kilandros · October 2016

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

It's been this way for a long time, I remember being able to turn in Talons with heavy resto attacks way back in 1.2 or 1.3.

Also, probably shouldn't buff immobilizes until we give them some sort of cooldown. Nobody likes being permanently rooted the entire fight, and DKs shouldn't lean so heavily on Talons as they do now.

It's pretty much all mDK has. mDK has no strong self heal; no execute; no escape other than mist form. We have DoTs which can be purged and one burst skill that generally feels weak because we're forced to spec so heavily into defense. The ability to keep opponents controlled/CC'd is literally the ONLY strength mDK really has right now. So please tell me more about how we shouldn't lean on that.

I'm saying that permanently rooting somebody is boring to watch, boring to fight against, and makes magic DK boring to play. If the class needs a rework, then so be it.

I don't think a class that is designed around attrition damage and CC is boring at all.

arkansas_ESO · October 2016

Kilandros wrote: »

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

It's been this way for a long time, I remember being able to turn in Talons with heavy resto attacks way back in 1.2 or 1.3.

Also, probably shouldn't buff immobilizes until we give them some sort of cooldown. Nobody likes being permanently rooted the entire fight, and DKs shouldn't lean so heavily on Talons as they do now.

It's pretty much all mDK has. mDK has no strong self heal; no execute; no escape other than mist form. We have DoTs which can be purged and one burst skill that generally feels weak because we're forced to spec so heavily into defense. The ability to keep opponents controlled/CC'd is literally the ONLY strength mDK really has right now. So please tell me more about how we shouldn't lean on that.

I'm saying that permanently rooting somebody is boring to watch, boring to fight against, and makes magic DK boring to play. If the class needs a rework, then so be it.

I don't think a class that is designed around attrition damage and CC is boring at all.

A CC with no cooldown isn't fun gameplay. There's a reason I can only CC somebody with fear every six seconds, roots need a similar cooldown.

Lava_Croft · October 2016

I would just cast Healing Ward and turn around in the Talon spam.

Besides, any nerf to any snare/root/stun is a welcome change.

Kilandros · October 2016

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

It's been this way for a long time, I remember being able to turn in Talons with heavy resto attacks way back in 1.2 or 1.3.

Also, probably shouldn't buff immobilizes until we give them some sort of cooldown. Nobody likes being permanently rooted the entire fight, and DKs shouldn't lean so heavily on Talons as they do now.

It's pretty much all mDK has. mDK has no strong self heal; no execute; no escape other than mist form. We have DoTs which can be purged and one burst skill that generally feels weak because we're forced to spec so heavily into defense. The ability to keep opponents controlled/CC'd is literally the ONLY strength mDK really has right now. So please tell me more about how we shouldn't lean on that.

I'm saying that permanently rooting somebody is boring to watch, boring to fight against, and makes magic DK boring to play. If the class needs a rework, then so be it.

I don't think a class that is designed around attrition damage and CC is boring at all.

A CC with no cooldown isn't fun gameplay. There's a reason I can only CC somebody with fear every six seconds, roots need a similar cooldown.

Comparing Talons to Fear is a losing argument. Talons doesn't drop block and leave players vulnerable to burst. Notice I'm not advocating for a change to the way Fossilize works. Talons, however, has traditionally worked a certain way and now no longer does for no apparent reason.

Kaghei · October 2016

when 1.6 first hit we had a discussion with eric wroble about this. we said that you cannot pivot whilst rooted and you should be able to.
So they fixed it in 1.7, i dunno if they reverted the change but keeping it in the game would be far far worse for MDK.

We lack mobility and stamina, we cant always afford to break the root and with all our skills being melee we are useless if say a sorc roots us with trap beasts and streaks behind us. We literally cant do anything, we have to break a cc, then roll dodge.

Astanphaeus · October 2016

Kaghei wrote: »

when 1.6 first hit we had a discussion with eric wroble about this. we said that you cannot pivot whilst rooted and you should be able to.
So they fixed it in 1.7, i dunno if they reverted the change but keeping it in the game would be far far worse for MDK.

We lack mobility and stamina, we cant always afford to break the root and with all our skills being melee we are useless if say a sorc roots us with trap beasts and streaks behind us. We literally cant do anything, we have to break a cc, then roll dodge.

As an mDK, I've never really had a problem with snares focusing you in one direction; it has always benefited me when fighting WB spammers and sorcs (you point them at a all and they can't streak away).

Kilandros · October 2016

Kaghei wrote: »

when 1.6 first hit we had a discussion with eric wroble about this. we said that you cannot pivot whilst rooted and you should be able to.
So they fixed it in 1.7, i dunno if they reverted the change but keeping it in the game would be far far worse for MDK.

We lack mobility and stamina, we cant always afford to break the root and with all our skills being melee we are useless if say a sorc roots us with trap beasts and streaks behind us. We literally cant do anything, we have to break a cc, then roll dodge.

Just CC break and mist out man

danno8 · October 2016

vortexman11 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

All singletargetted abilities i could use as a sorc always turned your character towards the desired target - or atleast could always be used even when the character model did not turn. The only exception i can think of personally would be jabs which is a nontargetted channeled aoe...

From what I've experienced in the past, most/all ranged abilities could target them no matter which direction you faced in a root, but it never physically turned your character towards them, this was only possible with heavy attacks and a few other skills. Now it seems almost all abilities are physically turning your character towards the desired target, this includes skills such as jabs which is a channeled AoE that doesn't even need a target as you said, and healing ward which doesn't even make sense to turn your character around with....

Alucardo wrote: »

Having the ability to perma root someone, and in essence, removing control of their own character, it should have some limitations. All immobilizations should work like this, not just talons. Trap beast, bombard, encase, frost clench, etc.

Rooting someone DOES NOT remove total control of their character, as I said above there were still ways to turn around while in roots, but the fact that you can simply use any ability now and turn to face your target removes any skillful counterplay to roots, and I know ZOS is slowly trying to remove all forms of skillful counterplay so Im starting to think this might be intended

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

It's been this way for a long time, I remember being able to turn in Talons with heavy resto attacks way back in 1.2 or 1.3.

I know, I said you've almost always been able to turn with heavy attacks.

If you see a Templar turning during Jabs/Sweeps it's probably because they switched to first-person view as soon as they realized the DK they were facing spam Talons non-stop. At least that's what I do.

In first person view you can always turn no matter if immobilized.