World Bosses and Duelling in Towns, the Pitfalls of One Tamriel

AuldWolf · October 2016

I don't agree with what you've done to world bosses (now group bosses). I really don't. I don't like the disruptive duelling in towns, either.

I'm a little fed up of changes like this. Changes to appeal to intentionally disruptive PvP players, and changes to appeal to the hardcore. Changes to appeal to less than 5~ per cent of the overall playerbase. Most of the people playing this game are going to be doing so either solo PvE, or in a group of 2-3 PvE. These are the people with subscriptions. These are the roleplayers who regularly buy from the crown store. And you're alienating them with the changes you're making.

I'm worried ZOS is out of touch. It's the same kind of out of touch that Champions Online and Battleborn suffered, which killed both of those games. No, really, they're both ghost towns now. Don't take my word for it, though:

Champions Online: http://steamcharts.com/app/9880
Battleborn: http://steamcharts.com/app/394230

ESO is doing the same thing. When I left to take a break, ESO had around 5-600~ players a day. Now it has 3-4,000~ players a day. I can guess why. And again, don't take my word for it:

ESO then: https://web.archive.org/web/20160111202754/http://steamcharts.com/app/306130
ESO now: http://steamcharts.com/app/306130

The changes ESO is making now mimic the changes that Battleborn and Champions Online made. They appealed to PvP players and hardcore PvE players. There's nothing wrong with those groups, it's just that they aren't the majority. And they certainly aren't cash shop buyers. Changing things to suit these minorities will cost you population, and that will cost you money (rather than make you money). Every single change like this will cost you population and money. These are really silly choices to make. I don't want to see ESO go down the same terrible road that Champions Online did, but I see so many parallels that it's uncanny. No, it's frightening.

Changes like these will not only kill off the population, but it'll also lose ESO its subscribers and crown store buyers. The more you appeal to tiny minorities over your core demographic (95~ per cent of your players), the more you risk just losing everything and becoming a ghost town.

The Steam Charts numbers don't lie.

I really hope that ZOS will listen, otherwise no amount of lockboxes will save ESO. And hey, guess what? Champions Online also tried lockboxes to save itself after making all of these selfsame mistakes. Didn't help. Like I said, the parallels are frightening. The only reason I'm speaking up about this is because i don't want to have to watch ESO die due to the same kinds of bad decisions that made so many others like it die.

@ZOS_GinaBruno

AuldWolf · October 2016

Proposed Solution: Use the scaling.

Have the game run at a difficulty level of 'Normal' which is soloable. Then, add 'Hard,' 'Very Hard,' 'Extreme', 'Ultimate,' and 'Superior' difficulties to the menu. These just scale the player down, so that they're much weaker. Their armour, for example, just becomes a lot weaker. Their items become weaker, et cetera. And playing on a higher difficulty just gives them bragging rights. But everyone else can play on whatever difficulty they want and still unlock everything.

Play your own way should be important, especially when you're stopping 95~ per cent of the community from playing their own way.

Calboy · October 2016

Less than 5% aye.

LiquidSchwartz · October 2016

Hahahhahahahha aside from dueling in town being kinda laggy this update is the best thing to come to ESO

Kronosphere · October 2016

this is why i shouldnt be on forums. posts like this, from people who dont know what they are talking about. who put 0 effort in, things dont work for them, so they go complain. and that difficulty suggestion is so bad @AuldWolf

just prove your lack of understanding. normal people dont feel good for doing something easy that they have purposefully made hard for themselves (with 0 reward). the motivation and accomplishment comes from doing something that IS inherently hard and overcoming it. your comparing winning gold in running at the olympics to walking to the end of my street using my knees instead of running like i could be. there is no where near the satisfaction (arguably non) in the latter option. just.. just no please god no hell no.

SienneYviete · October 2016

AuldWolf wrote: »

I don't agree with what you've done to world bosses (now group bosses). I really don't. I don't like the disruptive duelling in towns, either.

I'm a little fed up of changes like this. Changes to appeal to intentionally disruptive PvP players, and changes to appeal to the hardcore. Changes to appeal to less than 5~ per cent of the overall playerbase. Most of the people playing this game are going to be doing so either solo PvE, or in a group of 2-3 PvE. These are the people with subscriptions. These are the roleplayers who regularly buy from the crown store. And you're alienating them with the changes you're making.

I'm worried ZOS is out of touch. It's the same kind of out of touch that Champions Online and Battleborn suffered, which killed both of those games. No, really, they're both ghost towns now. Don't take my word for it, though:

Champions Online: http://steamcharts.com/app/9880
Battleborn: http://steamcharts.com/app/394230

ESO is doing the same thing. When I left to take a break, ESO had around 5-600~ players a day. Now it has 3-4,000~ players a day. I can guess why. And again, don't take my word for it:

ESO then: https://web.archive.org/web/20160111202754/http://steamcharts.com/app/306130
ESO now: http://steamcharts.com/app/306130

The changes ESO is making now mimic the changes that Battleborn and Champions Online made. They appealed to PvP players and hardcore PvE players. There's nothing wrong with those groups, it's just that they aren't the majority. And they certainly aren't cash shop buyers. Changing things to suit these minorities will cost you population, and that will cost you money (rather than make you money). Every single change like this will cost you population and money. These are really silly choices to make. I don't want to see ESO go down the same terrible road that Champions Online did, but I see so many parallels that it's uncanny. No, it's frightening.

Changes like these will not only kill off the population, but it'll also lose ESO its subscribers and crown store buyers. The more you appeal to tiny minorities over your core demographic (95~ per cent of your players), the more you risk just losing everything and becoming a ghost town.

The Steam Charts numbers don't lie.

I really hope that ZOS will listen, otherwise no amount of lockboxes will save ESO. And hey, guess what? Champions Online also tried lockboxes to save itself after making all of these selfsame mistakes. Didn't help. Like I said, the parallels are frightening. The only reason I'm speaking up about this is because i don't want to have to watch ESO die due to the same kinds of bad decisions that made so many others like it die.

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Maybe it is you that is now the minority? Nice assumptions though.

Myself and most of the guilds i'm in are so called hardcore players and we're all subscribers and crown store buyers and there is a bunch of us that have been so since beta and are having the most fun playing eso since launch what now?

byghostlightrwb17_ESO · October 2016

the duelling on PS4 is seriously breaking the performance in the big cities. I think the world bosses should be balanced for two people not four, because now I can barely find enough without camping. Sure I like and want the challenge but in reality its not that easy to get that many people on some maps.

MaKTaiL · October 2016

Guys, dueling will die down overtime. World Bosses are actual bosses now. Don't expect to solo them allc(it is perfectly possible though If your build is decent enough).

Seri · October 2016

byghostlightrwb17_ESO wrote: »

the duelling on PS4 is seriously breaking the performance in the big cities.

Give it a week or two - there's not very much duelling in the major cities now on PC.

byghostlightrwb17_ESO wrote: »

I think the world bosses should be balanced for two people not four, because now I can barely find enough without camping.

They are balanced for two, with exception of one boss per zone? The patch note from Gina read a little off but only the ones called out in the patch notes got any sort of significant buff.

jeevin · October 2016

Eso has one of the broadest demographic of players of any online game out there. Zos is trying to appeal a lot of different gamers, as many as possible, and get them to stick with the game.

The world bosses were always intended to be group events but there were never enough players in zones to complete them. Now with 1T the player numbers in each zone are up and the world bosses are buffed again. The game needs a more group orientated focus with players helping others. Anyhow a great deal of these bosses can still be taken down solo although the rewards for doing so suck.

PvP in towns is annoying but duels have been requested from PC beta. The implementation could use a tweak, maybe to make PvP in towns a crime but frankly it's what a vocal group of players have wanted all along.

There is so much other content for single players in the game so why not let mmo players and pvpers have a bit more?

WelshAssassin1987 · October 2016

World bosses should be group content. Duelling is a problem though, lag in cities is annoying as hell. But overall I like what One Tamriel has brought to the game.

Scootter · October 2016

The Steam stats I think can be very misleading. I have never played ESO through Steam and I would imagine there is a pretty big chunk of people who don't. Yes, less people playing through Steam than before but we really have no idea on total.

Abob · October 2016

I usually solo the World bosses, so I can't understand all this crying.

Enteum · October 2016

This update pulled me out of a hiatus with this game after a long time. Deleted all of my characters and started fresh.

I am having an absolute blast. The duelling in towns doesnt really bother me. It's nice to crack open a beer and watch sometimes. Pick a guy and root for them

Alucardo · October 2016

Enteum wrote: »

The duelling in towns doesnt really bother me. It's nice to cracked open a beer and watch sometimes. Pick a guy and root for them

Aye, I like porting into towns between dungeon farming to watch the duels for a bit of a break. It's good fun.

Jaronking · October 2016

Isn't battleborn a MOBa?Am pretty sure you should balance a MoBA for PVP players.Also its on consoles game usual sell better on console than they do on PC.That's what happened and is happening with ESO so just because the population low on Pc doesn't mean its low on console.Plus I'll love to see your numbers of who sub's and don't subs.Also just because you don't enjoy a part of the game doesn't mean many other do not.Only person who know that for sure is ZOS and we will.know if they make a change to the game.ESO is fine 1T is fine and if you don't have to be here you can leave good bye don't let the door hit you on the way out.People are enjoying the game if you don't like how the game going show zos that by leaving. Trust me when I tell you that doesn't work.

covenant_merchant · October 2016

@AuldWolf These steam charts only take into consideration players that have bought the game on Steam, not everyone who bought it from ESO's website or other means. As such they don't cover the entirety of the playerbase and are only representative of a segment. Sorry for nitpicking, but yeah. Also, these charts see peaks during months usually assigned for holidays and DLC releases, which is expected. If anything, there was an influx of players with One Tamriel.

Regarding world bosses, I fail to see your problem? It's an MMO. They're world bosses for a reason, and you should have to team up with other people to bring them down. And they did increase the amount of people being able to loot said bosses exactly to catter to non-opti players with less DPS output. If you want only single-person content, either get good enough to solo group activities in ESO or play a game that isn't an MMO.

And dueling in towns is a matter of personal preference. On the technical side of things, there is no conclusive proof that they're causing lag spikes. As for their supposed disruptive nature, "live and let live" anyone?

AuldWolf wrote: »

The changes ESO is making now mimic the changes that Battleborn and Champions Online made. They appealed to PvP players and hardcore PvE players. There's nothing wrong with those groups, it's just that they aren't the majority. And they certainly aren't cash shop buyers.

That assumption is wrong. While everyone is buying cosmetic stuff from the Crown Store regardless of the time they spend on the game, "harcore" or rather more dedicated players are more likely to have an ESO + subscription, if only for the crafting bag and increased experience gained for rerolls.

Most people who go on questing alone or with 2-3 people as you say are the ones who are here for the story. While they might buy a costume or two for crowns because "damn that pirate outfit makes my cat look cute af", they certainly don't need a subscription, and once the story content is over, they'll be gone, only to come back at new DLC releases, get their story immersion and leave once again. Of course, they can fall in love with the game despite its numerous issues and decide to stay, join guilds and run dungeons or go get famous in PvP, but most of the time, the only money they bring to the company is the one from the initial purchase of the game.

Alucardo · October 2016

kasa-obake wrote: »

@AuldWolf These steam charts only take into consideration players that have bought the game on Steam, not everyone who bought it from ESO's website or other means. As such they don't cover the entirety of the playerbase and are only representative of a segment. Sorry for nitpicking, but yeah. Also, these charts see peaks during months usually assigned for holidays and DLC releases, which is expected. If anything, there was an influx of players with One Tamriel.

Regarding world bosses, I fail to see your problem? It's an MMO. They're world bosses for a reason, and you should have to team up with other people to bring them down. And they did increase the amount of people being able to loot said bosses exactly to catter to non-opti players with less DPS output. If you want only single-person content, either get good enough to solo group activities in ESO or play a game that isn't an MMO.

And dueling in towns is a matter of personal preference. On the technical side of things, there is no conclusive proof that they're causing lag spikes. As for their supposed disruptive nature, "live and let live" anyone?

AuldWolf wrote: »

The changes ESO is making now mimic the changes that Battleborn and Champions Online made. They appealed to PvP players and hardcore PvE players. There's nothing wrong with those groups, it's just that they aren't the majority. And they certainly aren't cash shop buyers.

That assumption is wrong. While everyone is buying cosmetic stuff from the Crown Store regardless of the time they spend on the game, "harcore" or rather more dedicated players are more likely to have an ESO + subscription, if only for the crafting bag and increased experience gained for rerolls.

Most people who go on questing alone or with 2-3 people as you say are the ones who are here for the story. While they might buy a costume or two for crowns because "damn that pirate outfit makes my cat look cute af", they certainly don't need a subscription, and once the story content is over, they'll be gone, only to come back at new DLC releases, get their story immersion and leave once again. Of course, they can fall in love with the game despite its numerous issues and decide to stay, join guilds and run dungeons or go get famous in PvP, but most of the time, the only money they bring to the company is the one from the initial purchase of the game.

Dubhliam · October 2016

Yeah... because nothing says, "friendly encounter" than a large skull with two crossed swords.

And don't presume you know who is a paying customer.
I am a subscriber and a paying customer.

I duel and PvP along with everything else this game has to offer. My guildies are mostly the same.

Elijah_Crow · October 2016

OP, I think it is you who are out of touch. This game has more than enough solo content. World bosses were always intended to be group content, as were Dolmens.

Junipus · October 2016

Not to pile onto the beat down in this thread, but it's definitely justified as there's so many selective facts in the first post.

Wollust · October 2016

Why don't you go and play skyrim or so? If you can't handle MMO aspects?

SickDuck · October 2016

World bosses good.
Dueling in town bad.
Good day!

SickDuck · October 2016

Seriously, I don't understand why the guards tolerate all this violence...

dead_goon · October 2016

Thanks for speaking for me...

Lucious90 · October 2016

I dont see an issue,

1 making Dueling a Crime in towns is the dumbest idea ever, I am not going to pay gold or randomly die to a guard because you dont like watching me fight in town. It will die down. Plenty of games implement dueling, ie WoW and yet its not an issue.

2 World bosses, I actually have to thank ZoS on this, they made them a challenge and put decent rewards behind them. This could be like WoW where you have to organize a 25 man raid just to knock out a world boss and fight everyone over the 4 pieces of loot that drops (old school Wolk style btw). I am glad they made it this way. If you dont like grouping I am sorry your anti social within a Massive Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game, but a decent solution, atleast from my experience in PC, just tag along with the zerg thats farming the WB and Anchors, you get hella Exp, and great loot, just make sure to put AoE abilities on your bar makes it easier.

To the OP, steam numbers dont show the whole picture, if you look ESOs peak players for this year is almost 6k. Now on PC alone I can guess that there are more thank 6k players on during peak hours, evenings and weekends (I am not putting a hard number on this because I just dont know) and even then this game is spread out amongst 3 different gaming platforms PC (Steam and non steam) XB1 and PS4, so taking a small sample and saying OMG ESO is dying because of OT is a bit melodramatic. As for who ESO should cater to, it honestly should be the hard core Trial runners and PvPers, because they understand the game, they under stand the mechanics better than someone who sits in towns all day acting like they are actually their character, or someone who hops on for a bit, runs a few things and gets out, or who doesnt care about min maxing. Alot of them come from a large experience of MMO game play and can be used (for the most part) to better this game. OT is a great move and has made getting to end game and BiS gear a lot easier for everyone, there are aspects that I disagree with that they did, but over all it got me back into the game.

TLDR; Dueling and WB are fine, its a MMO enjoy it and set your duels to auto decline; There are Single player TES you can play if not

kevlarto_ESO · October 2016

World Bosses were never meant to be soloed, but ZOS was to slow to fix that issue and it became to norm, I like the fix myself gives me something to with my guild.

As far as dueling some of those people trying to grief others that were in buildings , but even on PC I see less dueling going on it is declining slowly, one thing with cheaters and broken proc sets, seems like some folks at not finding dueling as fun as they though it would be, there will be always be some dueling but the shine is wearing off.

With all the imbalances in the game I don't bother with dueling, outside of testing some builds with friends or a fun dueling guild event, and we go out in the middle of no where to do these events.

agegarton · October 2016

I mostly agree with the original post - I'm not going to get my knickers in a twist about it, but there are some easy fixes that'd make the game even better. First, simply suppress the duel option when inside a city / town. There's no need to fight in a town - just go outside. Second, I agree that most world bosses are perhaps a little too tough now. Maybe, to appease everyone, there could be two types of world boss - two grades of difficulty, with the hardest being a clear group boss level, while others could be tough solo bosses.

I understand that there are some here who quote the usual crap "I solo everything, I don't see what your problem is" (uh-huh, of course you do........).. Well, that's nice for you, pal, but you ARE in the minority and this game should be for all paying customers, not just you. It's not that hard to achieve balance - just takes a bit of thought.

SaibotLiu · October 2016

Since when do only pvpers duel in cities? I pvp in every game if possible and I dont do that. That kinda stuff is for show ponies.

Also, your definition of "hardcore" must be different than mine, hardcore players by their nature are more prone to spend money on the game their hardcore about.

Glamdring · October 2016

OP are you a new player? Almost every change they made since day one have been for the casual player. And 1T certainly makes the casual players life much easier. Your wall of text is just nonsense straight through.

phairdon · October 2016

Like the changes with One Tamriel. Got to say though, the strength of the world bosses did take me by surprise in Rivenspire the other day. The same boss I had soloed more than once, obliterated 4 of us. Talk about a spanking lol. Oh well, such is life.