HP-scaling in (normal) dungeons is utterly off

itehache · October 2016

Yesterday I pugged this dungeon with some lowbies and some high cp and we did not finish it. However, whenever I run with guildies or friends I have no troubles at all. It always depends on the group (and the level!!). When I pugged it, the healer was level 10 so he had only 1 spell to heal us and few magicka.

Hempyre · October 2016

I posted in a similar thread yesterday, but ya normal pledge dungeon mobs have been boosted to far.

Previously to this last maintenance update I could solo all normal dungeons that didn't require 2 player mechanics, and I had done a couple norm II's like Elden with little extra trouble. I hadn't gotten to all of the II's yet, so I can't comment on all of them. However, I wiped three times in Spindle II yesterday before hitting the first boss... I had to check I was not in vet mode.

This seems to be since maintenance, not from the T1 update.

I know this is designed for group content, but my toon is a pretty well geared templar. Short of dps races and one shot mechanics there's not much I can't solo within reason. I dont see how low lvl/cp/gear players are supposed to be able to complete normal mode dungeons like this. Vet dungeons I get, should require a bit more organization and gear etc... yet still be puggable.

Running undaunted pledges is pretty manditory, both for monster sets and undaunted xp, and the group finder just isn't sophisticated or quick enough to properly match players for this content.

I run the norms solo while in queue for vet, but having to queue for norms as well is going to be a huge timesink.

I would suggest dialing back whatever changes were made at least 30℅

Marto · October 2016

What really saddens me is that most of the players that support the difficulty change are hardcore Vet Trial players with 500CP, Gold gear, Trial gear, Undaunted Mettle and a lot of time to play and practice.

Put yourself in the shoes of a player that only has 5 hours a week to play. Or a player that is not that skillful, or a player that is just now beginning to learn.

Normal dungeons are supposed to be easy. You can't complain about difficulty there. They are meant to be easy enough for a group of level 20s with hybrid builds to beat it. Might be difficult, but it HAS to be possible.

daedalusAI · October 2016

Marto wrote: »

What really saddens me is that most of the players that support the difficulty change are hardcore Vet Trial players with 500CP, Gold gear, Trial gear, Undaunted Mettle and a lot of time to play and practice.

Put yourself in the shoes of a player that only has 5 hours a week to play. Or a player that is not that skillful, or a player that is just now beginning to learn.

Normal dungeons are supposed to be easy. You can't complain about difficulty there. They are meant to be easy enough for a group of level 20s with hybrid builds to beat it. Might be difficult, but it HAS to be possible.

There has to a ramp-up in difficulty as you progress - but not on this magnitude.
Before the hp-increase the normal II dungeons were challenging for me with a low-level group and I should know: came back to ESO last week and I've only been running dungeons on my dk healer starting with lvl 10 until my current level of 27.
Even imperial city prison and white-gold tower were doable.

But now with the new patch there is suddenly this big wall which previously wasn't there and I can't do my normal dungeons anymore like I used to do over the weekend - which now forces me to level another toon until the issue is resolved because with my healer I only want to run dungeons.

I'm mildly agitated now.
Even more so after seeing it took ages to fix something as simple as a game launcher for the EU players.

Minno · October 2016

Question for the screenshot posts:
-what are your full stats? At your lvl, zos compensated for low lvl toons with higher stats. But you must match your gear to your current lvl.

- is everyone doing interchangeable roles? Meaning even DPS should have a healing spell/defense on their bar to help make the tank/heals task more easy. And likewise, do the healers/tracks have Dps rotations?

Its my understanding that the dungeons now test how balanced your gear/bar setups/and group synergy are instead of "L4m 1heal,1tank 1dps" zone organization.

The increased health means you are looking at a sustain fight, not a dps race.

daedalusAI · October 2016

Minno wrote: »

Question for the screenshot posts:
-what are your full stats? At your lvl, zos compensated for low lvl toons with higher stats. But you must match your gear to your current lvl.

- is everyone doing interchangeable roles? Meaning even DPS should have a healing spell/defense on their bar to help make the tank/heals task more easy. And likewise, do the healers/tracks have Dps rotations?

Its my understanding that the dungeons now test how balanced your gear/bar setups/and group synergy are instead of "L4m 1heal,1tank 1dps" zone organization.

The increased health means you are looking at a sustain fight, not a dps race.

+

The details shouldn't matter at all: before 2.6.5 I did just fine with any low-level group I had in normal II dungeons. Now it's impossible as you can tell by the screenshots.

And you seem to forget this is a normal II dungeon: meaning if you have the level to queue for it it should be possible to being able to finish it no matter your build, if you have heals on your swap, watch your buffs/debuffs etc.

Tell me how the 3rd warden in banished cells II is not a dps race now with increased hp: with the group in those screenshots we were barely sometimes able to kill the 3rd add phase of clannfears before the next add phase started.

Divinius · October 2016

When I saw that these threads had been moved from General, I was really hoping they had been moved to the "Bugs" forum...

daedalusAI · October 2016

Divinius wrote: »

When I saw that these threads had been moved from General, I was really hoping they had been moved to the "Bugs" forum...

My first impression after seeing it being moved from general: someone doesn't want to give the issue the recognition it deserves.

More people are staying only in general than browsing the specific sub-forums and people who were not following this thread/the issue don't know where the thread now is.

Just look at the general forum: as of right now only 1 thread of this issue remaining while all the others have been moved out of sight of the majority.

I already have a sour taste on my tongue seeing how this is being handled with no communication or explanation so far.

Moloch1514 · October 2016

Is this only an issue for toons that are not high CP and in max gear? I run dungeons with my sister so we always do group content as a duo, so far we haven't noticed any issues. We even did Vet. Vaults of Madness to get Grothdarr (sis got Divines on first run). I have yet to try dungeons on a sub lvl 50.

mrs_gibbs · October 2016

aheck1111_ESO wrote: »

Is this only an issue for toons that are not high CP and in max gear? I run dungeons with my sister so we always do group content as a duo, so far we haven't noticed any issues. We even did Vet. Vaults of Madness to get Grothdarr (sis got Divines on first run). I have yet to try dungeons on a sub lvl 50.

Have you ran dungeons since yesterday? And the big problem is normal dungeons, not vet.

Moloch1514 · October 2016

mrs_gibbs wrote: »

aheck1111_ESO wrote: »

Is this only an issue for toons that are not high CP and in max gear? I run dungeons with my sister so we always do group content as a duo, so far we haven't noticed any issues. We even did Vet. Vaults of Madness to get Grothdarr (sis got Divines on first run). I have yet to try dungeons on a sub lvl 50.

Have you ran dungeons since yesterday? And the big problem is normal dungeons, not vet.

We ran the 2 pledges yesterday, Normal mode. I'm guessing at CP 535 with close to BiS gear, and 2 DPS magplars with Grothdarr, we just are able to jab/heal through the damage.

Edit: Haven't run version II of a normal dungeon since yesterday's patch.

daedalusAI · October 2016

Taking how long it took to fix the launcher as a base I do wonder how long it will take to fix the current state of normal dungeons?

So far 0 official response and the general forum was purged from all but 1 thread about the scaling issue.

IwakuraLain42 · October 2016

daedalusAI wrote: »

Taking how long it took to fix the launcher as a base I do wonder how long it will take to fix the current state of normal dungeons?

So far 0 official response and the general forum was purged from all but 1 thread about the scaling issue.

If you look at the forums you will notice a complete communication lockdown on any hot topic since 1T arrived on PC. For example I've seen exactly one post by the Dungeon Lead with regards to a boss problem in vICP. Since then there has been absolutely no communication from any ZOS employee to any problems/issues reported regarding the dungeons.

I thinks this due to the fact that the Console release is only one week away, and due to the certification issues we *will* get the changes that are now active on PC. Any if the changes described here and in the other threads are true this will cause unrest in the Console population. I'm pretty sure that ZOS is actually aware now of the issues presented here and that they are planning for this, this is most likely a PR thing.

The problems is that changes like these simply can't be hotfixed, there must be a patch for that. And any patches for the Console are issued at least one month after release.

Or they hope that they can ride out this storm and people will adapt. I don't think this will happen, a lot of disappointed players will leave.

daedalusAI · October 2016

IwakuraLain42 wrote: »

daedalusAI wrote: »

Taking how long it took to fix the launcher as a base I do wonder how long it will take to fix the current state of normal dungeons?

So far 0 official response and the general forum was purged from all but 1 thread about the scaling issue.

If you look at the forums you will notice a complete communication lockdown on any hot topic since 1T arrived on PC. For example I've seen exactly one post by the Dungeon Lead with regards to a boss problem in vICP. Since then there has been absolutely no communication from any ZOS employee to any problems/issues reported regarding the dungeons.

I thinks this due to the fact that the Console release is only one week away, and due to the certification issues we *will* get the changes that are now active on PC. Any if the changes described here and in the other threads are true this will cause unrest in the Console population. I'm pretty sure that ZOS is actually aware now of the issues presented here and that they are planning for this, this is most likely a PR thing.

The problems is that changes like these simply can't be hotfixed, there must be a patch for that. And any patches for the Console are issued at least one month after release.

Or they hope that they can ride out this storm and people will adapt. I don't think this will happen, a lot of disappointed players will leave.

Sounds reasonable: as reasonable as yahoo who just admitted to having over 500 million accounts hacked and waited to come forward after having their deal with verizon in the bag - which now backfires because they don't want to pay the agreed price upon that discovery.

You should've been here yesterday evening as the general forum got purged of almost every thread concerning this issue and everything got moved here.

In the bigger picture: nothing new as far as a gaming company is concerned and their lack of understanding and making their paying customers as happy as possible.

But being the unforgiving devils advocate that I am I will have plenty of fun in here in the coming weeks and months.

IwakuraLain42 · October 2016

daedalusAI wrote: »

Sounds reasonable: as reasonable as yahoo who just admitted to having over 500 million accounts hacked and waited to come forward after having their deal with verizon in the bag - which now backfires because they don't want to pay the agreed price upon that discovery.

I was just trying to explain how this might look from a business side (basically just reading tea leaves ...). In my opinion this whole mess is either a) planned (unlikely, considering the differences from normal to veteran) or b) a bug.

I consider b) the most likely explanation and I assume that they are actively trying to fix this. And until they have a fix there will be no communication on that topic. Sad, but common practice ...

daedalusAI wrote: »

You should've been here yesterday evening as the general forum got purged of almost every thread concerning this issue and everything got moved here.

I'm following this topic intensely since it came up, this a important to me. So yes, I'm was there ;-/

daedalusAI · October 2016

On a slightly different note:

Spindleclutch I final boss 1-shotting everyone who doesn't move out of her aoe - when previously you survived standing in it with about 10-20% hp.
Even the high cp in my group got 1-shotted.

daedalusAI · October 2016

IwakuraLain42 wrote: »

daedalusAI wrote: »

Sounds reasonable: as reasonable as yahoo who just admitted to having over 500 million accounts hacked and waited to come forward after having their deal with verizon in the bag - which now backfires because they don't want to pay the agreed price upon that discovery.

I was just trying to explain how this might look from a business side (basically just reading tea leaves ...). In my opinion this whole mess is either a) planned (unlikely, considering the differences from normal to veteran) or b) a bug.

I consider b) the most likely explanation and I assume that they are actively trying to fix this. And until they have a fix there will be no communication on that topic. Sad, but common practice ...

daedalusAI wrote: »

You should've been here yesterday evening as the general forum got purged of almost every thread concerning this issue and everything got moved here.

I'm following this topic intensely since it came up, this a important to me. So yes, I'm was there ;-/

Common practice would be to inform your customers 1. if that is a bug and if it is 2. tell them that you're looking into it.

Right now there is a deafening silence concerning that issue and now there are even problems with accessing characters on top of it.

Compare the current situation with a restaurant visit: you are getting a burnt steak and complain to a waiter. After writing down your complain that waiter just vanishes into thin air leaving you behind with a burnt steak and nothing else.
I'm only willing to wait a certain amount of time to hear back from him before I leave and will never visit that restaurant again and even warn my friends.

I'm pretty close to leaving the restaurant now considering there are a ton of other customers complaining about their burnt steaks too and no one cares.

Loc2262 · October 2016

Gina confirmed in the Bug Reports forum that it's a bug and will be fixed with the next "incremental patch".

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3438814#Comment_3438814

daedalusAI · October 2016

Loc2262 wrote: »

Gina confirmed in the Bug Reports forum that it's a bug and will be fixed with the next "incremental patch".

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3438814#Comment_3438814

They moved 6 or more big threads from general to the dungeon sub-forum without a single word and only now comment on 1 small thread in the bug forum that it is an issue?

That really is like giving the finger to every other thread out there and that you have to search for that 1 comment makes it even worse.

As for the comment itself: it's not evident if the fix is only a fix to crypt of hearts or for every dungeon out there meaning they did [SNIP] every - single - dungeon - scaling.

Which in turn begs every rational customer to question if they are unable to test what they push to live and why it took over 2 days to get some basic recognition when the the forum was flooded on a small scale with threads about the same issue and even provided screenshots as evidence.

Karius_Imalthar · October 2016

There seems to be multiple themes in this single thread.

1. Hard Mode on Old Normals: I don't see any problem with this. You just can't ignore mechanics like you used to. We struggled a little yesterday with hm BC1 because now you have to read the bosses movements (he raises weapon and is about to cast fire), be really careful about getting out of the fire quickly, then know he's going to follow up with a bolt to a random player so be ready to block or roll dodge. I've had to actually learn some of these mechanics that I never even bothered to pay attention to because you could just stack and burn a lot of times.

2. Group Finder Pairing on Normals: Often I find that if I use Group Finder I end up with a group that is made up of really low level people and then the dungeon turns into a huge mess and we can't complete it. Just yesterday I wanted to grab the key so I just used GF for a normal WGT and I ended up with a level 10 and a level 30ish player. I am typically the healer and I end up having to dps and heal. These groups typically disband because it turns into 1 or 2 people trying to drag through the other members of the group who are barely adding anything to the dungeon.

daedalusAI · October 2016

See here:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3440337/#Comment_3440337

ZOS_Finn wrote: »

Hey Folks,

A bit of a mea culpa here. We did erroneously adjusted the damage of normal dungeons higher than intended and will be bringing them back in line with the next incremental. They should be adjusted back to the health and power levels from OneTamriel Launch.

Thanks for all the feedback and we apologize for the unexpected spike in difficulty.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · October 2016

Quick question, have you tried to do the dungeons not scaled? Like instead of using the group finder, just port to the dungeon that you want to run? Then everything ought to be your level and not scaled to 160cp.

MissBizz · October 2016

@Lightspeedflashb14_ESO you can't scale the dungeons to leader level anymore in one tamriel... Everywhere is 160cp all the time.

And zos has commented that normal dungeons are currently bugged. (Twice actually)

daedalusAI · October 2016

MissBizz wrote: »

@Lightspeedflashb14_ESO you can't scale the dungeons to leader level anymore in one tamriel... Everywhere is 160cp all the time.

And zos has commented that normal dungeons are currently bugged. (Twice actually)

That they did and even ninja-edited their own comment on they way:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3444460/#Comment_3444460

MissBizz · October 2016

daedalusAI wrote: »

MissBizz wrote: »

@Lightspeedflashb14_ESO you can't scale the dungeons to leader level anymore in one tamriel... Everywhere is 160cp all the time.

And zos has commented that normal dungeons are currently bugged. (Twice actually)

That they did and even ninja-edited their own comment on they way:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3444460/#Comment_3444460

And both versions of that wording means it ended up more difficult than their intentions... Don't really see the point in picking out them editing a post?