Heavy armor templars and heavy armor in general. A thread about balance in cyrodil.

Cinbri · October 2016

1. Since you separated templars from others - you already don't understand the point of problem.
2. Compare what will happen when mNB, mDK, stamina use heavy armor. If you don't know answer - you didn't play Cyro for months like you pretend.
3. Based on those 2 conclussions - you don't even understand what you talknig about.

White wabbit · October 2016

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

I have a 10 page thread on it. 90% don't have a problem with Templars having everything.

lol Templars have everything in what reality

WillhelmBlack · October 2016

Firerock2 wrote: »

Maybe I built my Templar tank wrong, but I can't do a lot of damage on mine if I build for survivability. I'd like to see some clips of these Templars in heavy armor that do a crap ton of dps and survive for so long.

You'll see plenty when they finish farming Soulshine, Spinners and Valkyn Skoria.

Origin · October 2016

catalyst10e wrote: »

they can't be burst down.

I think the expectation to oneshot everybody is not balance.

Lutallo wrote: »

Just because you can't immediately burst down someone with a cheesy 4k weapon damage NB build, doesn't mean they need nerfing.

Please direct me toward this build that is "plain indestructible and do a lot of damage on top of the survivability. And on top of survivability and DPS, they have great sustain".

All heavy armour templars I see hit like wet noodles and can't sustain. They have no spell penetration and without the light armour passives they have no regen. Plus, magplars can't sustain stamina either. Even if they have black rose, they will have 0 magicka and spell damage buffs so they will do almost no damage.

I agree. I think the expectation to oneshot everybody or to kill in 2 sec is not balance. And using heavy armor in the game doesn't make you invulnerable or a 'god'.

Drdeath20 · October 2016

White wabbit wrote: »

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

I have a 10 page thread on it. 90% don't have a problem with Templars having everything.

lol Templars have everything in what reality

What is the top dps of a templar? I'm guessing it's not very good.

Eirella · October 2016

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

I think this is just the classic COD mentality that has plagued this game for a long time. People HATE tanks in PvP. If you can't burst something down and 360 no-scope, you get mad and ignore the other reasons why you died.

People seem to have no problem with NB's 2shotting people or proccing 3 different sets with a light attack but got forbid if someone builds for tankiness.

It was the same people that got bolt escape nerfed back in the day because they felt it was their talos-given right to either kill or be killed in every fight. It seems more frustrating to people to not be able to kill someone because they cant DPS, catch, or find them than it is to be two shot.

again, if this supertank highDPS templar exists, please enlighten us. Black rose + the spell penetration set maybe? Still seems like your magicka pool and damage would be low, and still not as tanky and no where near as deadly as the comparable stamina build wearing black rose malubeth and using vitality pots with vigor.

So true.

UppGRAYxDD · October 2016

nerf radient, nerf templars, nerf hvy armor.......ohh im sorry you cant 2piece templars in hvy armor with your veli viper proc. Cry me a river, build a bridge, and get over it. Most magplars have been forced to wear hvy armor due to the game balance being heavily skewed towards stam atm. Personally heavy armor is at exactly where it needs to be, actually viable in pvp without being a tank. What you need to be aiming your anger at is the balance issue between magicka and stamina or all sheilds being nerfed into the ground, proxy det getting nerfed, dawnbreaker of smiting moved to stam, sharpened over buffed, op stam proc sets, and general lack of burst dps for magicka in pvp. All of these factors lead to ppl using the only thing that is somewhat viable in pvp which atm is hvy magplars or gank magblades using hvy attacks. Direct your anger at ZOS

Vrath · October 2016

KingYogi415 wrote: »

The only people who complain about the meta are bad players.

This is certainly not true. There are issues with the meta and to pretend there arent is obtuse. Complain threads like this really dont do anything as the OP has no evidence, math or logic behind his long qq. Another poster got it right, it is the CoD mentality this game has foster.

There are issues, there always will be, in every PvP MMO. ZOS is doubling down and making it worse embracing a less skillful game play to make "fun, diverse" sets with no regards to PvP balance. But most people dont really want balance they just want to believe they are great players and that is why they win which is why they flip to the FoTM sets, skills and play style.

DHale · October 2016

I run a heavy armor magic Templar until a target is 30 percent health they do very little damage, puncturing sweeps.... any stam user can flurry or wrecking blow you dead while you are doing, it aurora javelin does so little damage less than 4 k on a crit. Vampire bane ha ha. Blazing spear very little damage where is this high damage I use invigorating drain as my main damage which is crap but runs people out of stam. Where is this high damage... truth is there isn't any. It's templars waiting for other people to burst you down so they can then radiant you. In the back far away. While you can't get close to them.

Serjustin19 · October 2016

SnubbS wrote: »

Heavy Armor is the problem -- not blackrose. Heavy needs a nerf in the worst kind of way -- and I main a Heavy Armor StamDK.

Heavy armor has been nerfed before. Ever since game came out. However finaly there is a use for heavy armor now. Wtih the new changes that happened for heavy armor. Heavy armor also should be tanky. Be hard to kill also.

However I used to wear 5 piece heavy. Only reason I change to 5 piece medium instead. Was because of not enough sustaine I have. I am also a templar. But I believe heavy armor should be were it is now.

templesus · October 2016

Nightblade 1 shot mechanics + Squishy light armor=Need to use heavy armor
Its simple math, because stamblades hit SO DANG HARD magicka classes who don't rely on shields are pigeonholed into using heavy so they don't get 1 shorted. Nerf NBs or buff light armor and problem solved. As for stam heavy, GG

Bigevilpeter · October 2016

Well ganking builds suck, so that was the solution for it.

people complained about ganking and zos solved it.

bantad87 · October 2016

Please, stop. Just stop.

I love my medium armor stamsorc. Heavy armor meta's are hard to kill, but that's the point. Their entire BUILD is based around surviving your burst, keeping their resources high enough to outlast you, and then hitting you with some moderate burst (which feels much more dangerous in medium armor).

There are ways to counter that build available to you. Healing reduction skills/CP's/sets and resource damage poisons will totally destroy the meta BR heavy armor builds. Switch to dual-wield for DoT builds and health leeching. You'd be surprised how dangerous a dagger/axe DoT build w/ a bow is to a meta stamplar when they slap on some healing reduction and resource poisons.

The stamplar cleanse is a severe drain on their magicka pool. You will burn through it real quick and then it's gg.

But hey, if your answer to every enemy you encounter that lives through your 1 second burst is to get moar burst, then you're destined for failure.

Magicka_DK · October 2016

KingYogi415 wrote: »

The only people who complain about the meta are bad players.

Learn to use fear or root!

Only people who use the meta are bad players

Korah_Eaglecry · October 2016

attackjet wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

The reason given to us, as to why mag Sorc's shields were nerfed was because ZOS felt players should be expected to choose between being "tanky" and dealing damage. Claiming the shields allowed for both and needed a change. Yet here we see Templars able to tank and DPS in the exact same way.

I'm constantly seeing 2 man Templar teams or Templar and DK teams just wreck full groups because they can't be burst down. It's most of the heavy armor users that run Black rose + malubeth who get away with it.

So true. And guy up there I'm capped at 531.

Legitimately every one in cyrodil is a heavy armor templar or heavy armor build....
Its just getting annoying

Dont let them NB Haters hear you saying that.

abelsgmx · October 2016

The real problem in Cyrodiil is exploiters, hackers and animation cancelers, all that crap making a good pvp game a really annoying experience

Orchish · October 2016

Heavy armour makes people tanky, who would have thought it? nerf them to be squishy so i can kill them in 4 seconds flat again.

Neoauspex · October 2016

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

I have a 10 page thread on it. 90% don't have a problem with Templars having everything.

Did that other thread finally sputter out? Here we are again, rezzing like Kagrenacs.

I feel like this is a game of hard counters, and striving for "balance" is somewhat counterintuitive to that. The spec(s) that counters your own always seems overpowered.

Every class has tools to deal with your hard counters (stealth/healing/shields/crowd control and combinations of those), they just aren't tools to win against them. The other day a guy that had no hope of killing me 1 on 1 ran circles around a tree and CC'd me for 45 minutes (exaggeration) until 3 of his allies came and curb stomped me. Bravo.

That being said, there are too many permutations for it to be perfect. Only way for that to happen is if every character was exactly the same. But that's not what RPGs are about.

I'd like to see cold damage get a bonus against heavy armor. This would boost an underwhelming damage type and provide a counter to heavy armor without returning it to garbage status.

What I don't want to see is reactionary sweeping changes that ping-pong a class or a build back and forth between over and underpowered. @WillhelmBlack you put up a good fight in that video, but you didn't win! I like that there are good fights to be put up in this game.

ewhite106b16_ESO · October 2016

Heavy armor in general does NOT need a nerf, just the opposite I"d say now it's finally viable compared to light/medium armor. Even using Black Rose, when I compare it against all medium armor I do more damage and have way fewer worries about resources. The hype against heavy armor I think is mostly newer players running into things like siphon builds or templar blazing shield builds that get more powerful with a bunch of people around trying to melee them and don't know how to counter it. Likewise they aren't aware of using things like healing debuffs, stacking penetration, things like the 2H weapon ultimate.

This isn't saying specific sets won't be an issue - but it needs more detailed feedback.

stevepdodson_ESO888 · October 2016

Sigtric wrote: »

I'm completely fine with this, having both a burst dps stamblade and a heavy Templar.

You want to kill everything and because you can't it's unfair.

My Templar can stand there solo, toe to toe vs 6 and last long enough to make them all really Salty, he can also get ganked in a split second. Depends on the skill of those trying to kill him + the situation.

On my NB I don't fuss with the obviously hard to kill targets. I'm not meant to kill them, I'm meant to take out other squishy damage dealers.

Yes...this right here...different Classes and builds for different purposes

You build the "tanky" one so you have less chance to be ganked by the high-burst "one shot" NB

You build your own "ganky" one so you can sneak up on an opponent and catch them out

WillhelmBlack · October 2016

ewhite106b16_ESO wrote: »

Heavy armor in general does NOT need a nerf, just the opposite I"d say now it's finally viable compared to light/medium armor. Even using Black Rose, when I compare it against all medium armor I do more damage and have way fewer worries about resources. The hype against heavy armor I think is mostly newer players running into things like siphon builds or templar blazing shield builds that get more powerful with a bunch of people around trying to melee them and don't know how to counter it. Likewise they aren't aware of using things like healing debuffs, stacking penetration, things like the 2H weapon ultimate.

This isn't saying specific sets won't be an issue - but it needs more detailed feedback.

What do you mean? Or are you actually saying you are doing more damage AND have more sustain in heavy compared to 7 medium?

silky_soft · October 2016

@attackjet You forgot vamp, vamp got a fire damage reduction ages ago and is now op af without camo hunter.

DocFrost72 · October 2016

silky_soft wrote: »

@attackjet You forgot vamp, vamp got a fire damage reduction ages ago and is now op af without camo hunter.

Come here mister/miss vamp, I have a dawnbreak...blood flavored lollipop for you.

Heavy armor makes you tanky and makes you less damaging, working as intended. If you want to make any changes, revert wrath to the infinitely better (for actual tanks which use heavy...) block cost reduce, 90% of problem solved.