Too much spell damage?

Izaki · October 2016

Spell damage stone is pretty rubbish if you ask me. 220 spell damage vs 18.3% critical damage? Not even comparable.
The thief is a must for all PvE DPS. If you don't have TBS, say you're running Night Mother's Gaze on a stamina build, you should be running Thief. Thief is the best stone even when using Julianos in vMA or something.

Check out sorcerer arithmagic that hedna linked. Best thing ever.

bryanhaas · October 2016

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

bryanhaas wrote: »

IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »

Yeah i used to ne skeptical about TBS then I did some maths and came to the conclusion that its still the best set for DPS. You're in group remember, you get a lot of buffs

AhahahahahahahababHHabBBahAHAHA

You're SUPPOSED to get a lot of buffs... PuGs... no buffs.

I remember this one PuG, i hit war horn and I hear, "Hey why did my health just shoot up?"

I just smh and beat it for em lol

You don't pug trials though do you?

bryanhaas wrote: »

IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »

Yeah i used to ne skeptical about TBS then I did some maths and came to the conclusion that its still the best set for DPS. You're in group remember, you get a lot of buffs

Do some of those buffs negate some of Julianos's buffs then?

I have a thread on this if you want. Read the latest comments. @hedna123b14_ESO helped me out tremendously with all the calculations. Maths wise TBS is better, all top-tier DPS in trials runs TBS, is that not enough for you?
EDIT: last comment on the 1st page is the answer. The difference is less than 1% in damage. Another very key factor is the health bonus that TBS offers. Also important note: Monster Helm damage is not affected by the spell damage stat at all, so Ilambris (which is what you want to be using in the next patch) will benefit more from TBS than from Julianos. Before you go on to say that its only a monster set, on the parses I've seen it does around 4K DPS at best. As an indicator, Crystal Fragments and Velocious Curse do 4k each most of the time.

Do you have a link to that thread? So I golded my TBS but yesterday I started pondering the ideal stones for TBS. I know everyone uses crit chance and crit damage so I looked at the mundus buffs and spell power give 213 when gold whereas crit damage give 18 percent when gold. So I went through all these calculations at 1:30 am (bad idea, oh the migraines) and somehow came up with a 14 percent increase in spell damage which is obviously incorrect. So running the numbers now it looks as though spell damage is only a 7 percent increase at a 14 percent increase in damage though it would prove to be more beneficial than crit damage increase assuming an equal distribution of elfborn to ele expert. Ie: (for simplicity sake) Normal frag 20,000 + 14 percent = 22,800 + 70 percent (crit damage plus 20 percent in elfborn) = 38760 or Normal frag = 20,000 + 88 percent (crit damage 50 plus elfborn 20 plus mundus 18) = 37,600.

Of course this is all a moot point as the SD does not equal a 14 percent increase but a 7 percent so you end up with 36,380 in theory. What I wonder is if tweaking elfborn and ele expert will then make the spell damage stone more viable than the crit damage stone. Last time I tested it seemed that the highest damage was achieved by equal distribution of EE and EB so it would stand to reason that if base damage was increased then the differential could be changed.

If you are running TBS without Thief and Shadow you are doing it wrong. If you would like to understand exactly how formula for the calculation of effective power works I encourage you to read this thread:

http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/pts-2-1-2-sorcerer-arithmagic/

Understood but I have a hard time following the conventional wisdom without verifying it myself. It does however seems that running those 2 together is the most efficient way.

bryanhaas · October 2016

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »

bryanhaas wrote: »

Re-running all the numbers I get the highest output with a base damage increase of 56 percent and a crit multiplier of 57 percent so it still seems equal distribution appears to be the way to go. I end up with 48,984 any warhorn on top of that should not skew anything.

You can't just base your whole damage output on Crystal Fragments alone.

You can try to do different stuff but its not optimal. Here's the thread, make sure read everything its all important.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/293893/effective-spell-power-of-a-mage-sorcerer-based-on-3-item-sets#latest

Hes not understanding how it works man. He is just looking at the % increase to his spell damage from running Apprentice and using that % increase to estimate frag damage, without accounting for crit modifiers, magicka pool and etc...I gave him the link to where he can find the proper formulas...

The responses I made were in progress before you guy's responses. Yep got the calculation now and will take a look however even by my inaccurate math assumptions it seems as though Crit % and Crit damage is indeed the way to go.

hedna123b14_ESO · October 2016

bryanhaas wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

bryanhaas wrote: »

IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »

Yeah i used to ne skeptical about TBS then I did some maths and came to the conclusion that its still the best set for DPS. You're in group remember, you get a lot of buffs

AhahahahahahahababHHabBBahAHAHA

You're SUPPOSED to get a lot of buffs... PuGs... no buffs.

I remember this one PuG, i hit war horn and I hear, "Hey why did my health just shoot up?"

I just smh and beat it for em lol

You don't pug trials though do you?

bryanhaas wrote: »

IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »

Yeah i used to ne skeptical about TBS then I did some maths and came to the conclusion that its still the best set for DPS. You're in group remember, you get a lot of buffs

Do some of those buffs negate some of Julianos's buffs then?

I have a thread on this if you want. Read the latest comments. @hedna123b14_ESO helped me out tremendously with all the calculations. Maths wise TBS is better, all top-tier DPS in trials runs TBS, is that not enough for you?
EDIT: last comment on the 1st page is the answer. The difference is less than 1% in damage. Another very key factor is the health bonus that TBS offers. Also important note: Monster Helm damage is not affected by the spell damage stat at all, so Ilambris (which is what you want to be using in the next patch) will benefit more from TBS than from Julianos. Before you go on to say that its only a monster set, on the parses I've seen it does around 4K DPS at best. As an indicator, Crystal Fragments and Velocious Curse do 4k each most of the time.

Do you have a link to that thread? So I golded my TBS but yesterday I started pondering the ideal stones for TBS. I know everyone uses crit chance and crit damage so I looked at the mundus buffs and spell power give 213 when gold whereas crit damage give 18 percent when gold. So I went through all these calculations at 1:30 am (bad idea, oh the migraines) and somehow came up with a 14 percent increase in spell damage which is obviously incorrect. So running the numbers now it looks as though spell damage is only a 7 percent increase at a 14 percent increase in damage though it would prove to be more beneficial than crit damage increase assuming an equal distribution of elfborn to ele expert. Ie: (for simplicity sake) Normal frag 20,000 + 14 percent = 22,800 + 70 percent (crit damage plus 20 percent in elfborn) = 38760 or Normal frag = 20,000 + 88 percent (crit damage 50 plus elfborn 20 plus mundus 18) = 37,600.

Of course this is all a moot point as the SD does not equal a 14 percent increase but a 7 percent so you end up with 36,380 in theory. What I wonder is if tweaking elfborn and ele expert will then make the spell damage stone more viable than the crit damage stone. Last time I tested it seemed that the highest damage was achieved by equal distribution of EE and EB so it would stand to reason that if base damage was increased then the differential could be changed.

If you are running TBS without Thief and Shadow you are doing it wrong. If you would like to understand exactly how formula for the calculation of effective power works I encourage you to read this thread:

http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/pts-2-1-2-sorcerer-arithmagic/

Understood but I have a hard time following the conventional wisdom without verifying it myself. It does however seems that running those 2 together is the most efficient way.

Thats perfectly fine, I am the same way, however the best way to verify is to:
1. Take a look at established equations and thoroughly analyze them until you see that they are sound.
2. Once you establish the validity of said equations plug in the values and analyze the results.

Coming up with your own equations prior to looking at established work is pointless, as others have spent a long time theorizing and peer reviewing this material.

hedna123b14_ESO · October 2016

bryanhaas wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »

bryanhaas wrote: »

Re-running all the numbers I get the highest output with a base damage increase of 56 percent and a crit multiplier of 57 percent so it still seems equal distribution appears to be the way to go. I end up with 48,984 any warhorn on top of that should not skew anything.

You can't just base your whole damage output on Crystal Fragments alone.

You can try to do different stuff but its not optimal. Here's the thread, make sure read everything its all important.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/293893/effective-spell-power-of-a-mage-sorcerer-based-on-3-item-sets#latest

Hes not understanding how it works man. He is just looking at the % increase to his spell damage from running Apprentice and using that % increase to estimate frag damage, without accounting for crit modifiers, magicka pool and etc...I gave him the link to where he can find the proper formulas...

The responses I made were in progress before you guy's responses. Yep got the calculation now and will take a look however even by my inaccurate math assumptions it seems as though Crit % and Crit damage is indeed the way to go.

That guy pretty much started major math analysis in ESO. I follow him religiously:)

bryanhaas · October 2016

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

bryanhaas wrote: »

Re-running all the numbers I get the highest output with a base damage increase of 56 percent and a crit multiplier of 57 percent so it still seems equal distribution appears to be the way to go. I end up with 48,984 any warhorn on top of that should not skew anything.

Your statement is analogous to 2+2 = 5...as Ive said before run the calculations (the correct calculations) and you should get the actual result.

It is not exactly 2+2 = 5 but yes I know my math was inaccurate which I knew at the time as I couldn't find your link.

Izaki · October 2016

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

bryanhaas wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »

bryanhaas wrote: »

Re-running all the numbers I get the highest output with a base damage increase of 56 percent and a crit multiplier of 57 percent so it still seems equal distribution appears to be the way to go. I end up with 48,984 any warhorn on top of that should not skew anything.

You can't just base your whole damage output on Crystal Fragments alone.

You can try to do different stuff but its not optimal. Here's the thread, make sure read everything its all important.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/293893/effective-spell-power-of-a-mage-sorcerer-based-on-3-item-sets#latest

Hes not understanding how it works man. He is just looking at the % increase to his spell damage from running Apprentice and using that % increase to estimate frag damage, without accounting for crit modifiers, magicka pool and etc...I gave him the link to where he can find the proper formulas...

The responses I made were in progress before you guy's responses. Yep got the calculation now and will take a look however even by my inaccurate math assumptions it seems as though Crit % and Crit damage is indeed the way to go.

That guy pretty much started major math analysis in ESO. I follow him religiously:)

And I second that. Going to sacrifice The Warrior, The Mage, The Serpent and Rakkhat to him. The first three have already been sacrificed a few times. Now that cat (or whatever the hell it is) with wings and horns must die.

Yeah the best way to understand all the formulas, is to do them on paper as you're reading them. Do that.
At least in this case. At uni, I'd try to figure out how to get to that formula, kinda like trying to put the pieces of a puzzle together. In this case, its hard because you'd have to spend hours testing things in game, instead of actually doing maths. But our dear friend Asayre has already gone through all that hassle. Many thanks to him.

bryanhaas · October 2016

So that XLSX is quite extensive, quick question though:
Does staff expert apply to overload if the bar before going into over load had a staff equipped?

hedna123b14_ESO · October 2016

bryanhaas wrote: »

So that XLSX is quite extensive, quick question though:
Does staff expert apply to overload if the bar before going into over load had a staff equipped?

No

bryanhaas · October 2016

Down to 50 seconds on Bloodspawn, until I get more aether pieces would I be better changing my Magnus swords to Julianos (for the crit) or Torugs (for the spell damage)? I thinking I am leaning a little more toward the Torugs for that extra crit. Currently running 5 TBS 3 willpower 2 Kena.

hedna123b14_ESO · October 2016

bryanhaas wrote: »

Down to 50 seconds on Bloodspawn, until I get more aether pieces would I be better changing my Magnus swords to Julianos (for the crit) or Torugs (for the spell damage)? I thinking I am leaning a little more toward the Torugs for that extra crit. Currently running 5 TBS 3 willpower 2 Kena.

torugs