Does Force Shock need a damage increase?

Zardayne · October 2016

This past weekend I decided once again to try to create a new magica based build for my templar (and later DK) with pretty horrible results. The goal was to get away from having to spam jabs and make a viable ranged build. Force shock was the ability I was going to use because if it worked, I was going to use the same on my DK (so tired of spamming whip too). Long story short Force pulse was so sub par on the minotaur I was testing on. I even mixed in weakness to elements in hopes it would bring the numbers up. It was still horribly bad.Not only that but it was 3 times the work to kill one mob. I went back to jabs and end up killin them in 1/4 the time with full health and 75-80% magica left. Why is this abilities ranged damage so bad? I so wanted to use this ability on my healing mag dk since the ability I use to use was destroyed IMO (the old molten weapons with the finisher additional damage). Does anyone else feel Force shock need some love?

DocFrost72 · October 2016

I can't speak to the level of difference and what that should look like, but IMHO range should hit for less than melee, because you are exposed to less danger and have more time to react. In a situation where you are alone, that won't show (your minotaur test). Once you start talking about trials, you start seeing a majority of vet clears favor ranged magicka DPS, as they can keep resources with ele drain and deal damage from relative safety.

As for a buff, I could see it...not sure how though, since one morph is an interupt and the other purposefully deals more damage.

Derra · October 2016

The dmg is mostly fine - problematic is the high cost compared to class abilities imo.

RebornV3x · October 2016

Yes most definitely me and my friends used to call this ability force noodle since it's such a crap ability

Xvorg · October 2016

More than a buff it needs something besides the extra dmg on elmental status enemies, or a cheaper cost.

The combo flame reach + force pulse does interesting dmg but is quite expensive.

Alanar · October 2016

If you have elemental drain on the target, Force Shock counts three times, which makes the ability effectively free. It also works well with Nerien'eth, since it counts as three damage abilities and three proc chances there as well. You'll also want to weave in elemental blockade, and maybe some appropriate class abilities, such as flames of oblivion and eruption for dk.

On the other hand, if you want a stronger ranged dps build for a dk, I just posted my ShockKnight build.

Zardayne · October 2016

DocFrost72 wrote: »

I can't speak to the level of difference and what that should look like, but IMHO range should hit for less than melee, because you are exposed to less danger and have more time to react. In a situation where you are alone, that won't show (your minotaur test). Once you start talking about trials, you start seeing a majority of vet clears favor ranged magicka DPS, as they can keep resources with ele drain and deal damage from relative safety.

As for a buff, I could see it...not sure how though, since one morph is an interupt and the other purposefully deals more damage.

As far as PVP goes I understand the whole range should do less than melee because they get in multiple attacks before the warrior gets to attack but in ESO..not so much. Everyone and their dog has instant gap closers that have no GCD so I feel that if there is a damage reduction on ranged..it shouldn't be a whole hell of a lot, especially with this ability (where you can't sneak attack from stealth).

In PVE I don't see why the damage can't be comparable.

Foxic · October 2016

http://i.imgur.com/KxWkQM6h.jpg

Ranged Templar is fine. You should be using reflective over force pulse. On a dunmer with a dk in your group it beats force pulse

Minalan · October 2016

Force shock should cost less, hit harder, and it shouldn't be reflectable.

Alucardo · October 2016

Minalan wrote: »

Force shock should cost less, hit harder, and it shouldn't be reflectable.

Anything else you'd like, or is that all?

Kilandros · October 2016

The entire Destruction Staff tree needs reworking.

Xvorg · October 2016

Alanar wrote: »

If you have elemental drain on the target, Force Shock counts three times, which makes the ability effectively free. It also works well with Nerien'eth, since it counts as three damage abilities and three proc chances there as well. You'll also want to weave in elemental blockade, and maybe some appropriate class abilities, such as flames of oblivion and eruption for dk.

On the other hand, if you want a stronger ranged dps build for a dk, I just posted my ShockKnight build.

It works with scathing mage too

Asmael · October 2016

Not a direct damage increase, but the chance of applying elemental effects increased would be nice, but this would have to be true for the whole skill line.

You'd actually have a theme around proccing elemental effects (Burning, Concussion, Chilled...) instead of static numbers.

Compared to Funnel health, it has slightly higher damage id you're a dunmer or altmer. It also benefits three times as much from Elemental Drain, Nerieneth procs and Scathing mage, so you have a few way to increase the damage.

On a side note: comparing Jabs to Force pulse isn't exactly great, since they work completely differently. Better comparisons would be Whip and Funnel health, since those are both instant cast and magicka.

Zardayne · October 2016

TotallyNotVos wrote: »

http://i.imgur.com/KxWkQM6h.jpg

Ranged Templar is fine. You should be using reflective over force pulse. On a dunmer with a dk in your group it beats force pulse

I do use reflective as well (for the crit increase, multiple targets, and the DOT) but I'd love for Force Pulse to be decent enough to use as well especially with the destro staff passives in play. Plus, reflective and vamps bane are still too slow traveling in pvp in my opinion. Even if you took an arrow to the knee you could still evade it lol.

I also shouldn't have to pay to change my race from Breton to Dunmer and then dual box my DK to beat out force pulse

Force pulse is really the only ranged choice my DK has now for ranged damage and it's horrible.

Xvorg · October 2016

Zardayne wrote: »

TotallyNotVos wrote: »

http://i.imgur.com/KxWkQM6h.jpg

Ranged Templar is fine. You should be using reflective over force pulse. On a dunmer with a dk in your group it beats force pulse

I do use reflective as well (for the crit increase, multiple targets, and the DOT) but I'd love for Force Pulse to be decent enough to use as well especially with the destro staff passives in play. Plus, reflective and vamps bane are still too slow traveling in pvp in my opinion. Even if you took an arrow to the knee you could still evade it lol.

I also shouldn't have to pay to change my race from Breton to Dunmer and then dual box my DK to beat out force pulse

Force pulse is really the only ranged choice my DK has now for ranged damage and it's horrible.

destro reach is an option too with a good knockback and DoT... but quite expensive.

Zardayne · October 2016

Alanar wrote: »

If you have elemental drain on the target, Force Shock counts three times, which makes the ability effectively free. It also works well with Nerien'eth, since it counts as three damage abilities and three proc chances there as well. You'll also want to weave in elemental blockade, and maybe some appropriate class abilities, such as flames of oblivion and eruption for dk.

On the other hand, if you want a stronger ranged dps build for a dk, I just posted my ShockKnight build.

Thanks for the info Alanar. I have been running most of those. It's just a shame us mag DKs don't have at least one ranged DD other than FOOs 15 meter, every 5 second one..

Foxic · October 2016

Zardayne wrote: »

TotallyNotVos wrote: »

http://i.imgur.com/KxWkQM6h.jpg

Ranged Templar is fine. You should be using reflective over force pulse. On a dunmer with a dk in your group it beats force pulse

I do use reflective as well (for the crit increase, multiple targets, and the DOT) but I'd love for Force Pulse to be decent enough to use as well especially with the destro staff passives in play. Plus, reflective and vamps bane are still too slow traveling in pvp in my opinion. Even if you took an arrow to the knee you could still evade it lol.

I also shouldn't have to pay to change my race from Breton to Dunmer and then dual box my DK to beat out force pulse

Force pulse is really the only ranged choice my DK has now for ranged damage and it's horrible.

Fair enough. Dk is shafted in that regard and for Templar I was thinking from a pve perspective

Dracane · October 2016

It definately needs an damage increase. It doesn't heal or anything and is fairly expensive for what it does.
10% increase would be something.

Minalan · October 2016

Alucardo wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Force shock should cost less, hit harder, and it shouldn't be reflectable.

Anything else you'd like, or is that all?

Yes while we're at it. Let's rework the whole tree. We need a reason to use touch/reach/pulsar over shock. But there really isn't, the costs on those are prohibitive.

Nothing in the destruction staff line can touch the bow skills, especially the new ultimate.

Overnerfed. Out of date. Back to the drawing board.

psychotic13 · October 2016

Minalan wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Force shock should cost less, hit harder, and it shouldn't be reflectable.

Anything else you'd like, or is that all?

Yes while we're at it. Let's rework the whole tree. We need a reason to use touch/reach/pulsar over shock. But there really isn't, the costs on those are prohibitive.

Nothing in the destruction staff line can touch the bow skills, especially the new ultimate.

Overnerfed. Out of date. Back to the drawing board.

Agreed, this skill line is in desperate need of an overhaul.

Oakmontowls_ESO · October 2016

If they were to buff it in order to make magika better then they should buff it's class based counterparts (whip funnel reflective) so that they are still viable options and not completely outclassed.

Silver_Strider · October 2016

Force Pulse is fine, as far as damage abilities go. The cost needs some adjustment but the ability itself doesn't need much change.

The rest of the Destro staff needs a LOT of help though.
If they'd just make Penetrate magic apply to all spells instead of just Destro staff abilities, it would be vastly better overall. Add a reduce cost effect on to the Destruction Expert passive and suddenly those high costing Destro staff abilities aren't so bad either. The only thing then would be a slight buff in damage to Impulse and Touch/Clutch and Destro staff becomes useful.

Juhasow · October 2016

It doesnt need dmg increase it needs 3 rd rank master staff that will affect it. Look at rapid strikes. without maelstorm their dmg isnt impressive and skill itself isnt OP but with malestorms hell yeah. Would be nice to get weapon that makes force shock more powerfull , and if master weapons affects 1st skill in each weapon skill line , maelstorms do the same to 2nd skill cant wait to see next generations of those weapons affecting 3rd skills.

Xvorg · October 2016

Juhasow wrote: »

It doesnt need dmg increase it needs 3 rd rank master staff that will affect it. Look at rapid strikes. without maelstorm their dmg isnt impressive and skill itself isnt OP but with malestorms hell yeah. Would be nice to get weapon that makes force shock more powerfull , and if master weapons affects 1st skill in each weapon skill line , maelstorms do the same to 2nd skill cant wait to see next generations of those weapons affecting 3rd skills.

3rd skill in 2h is uppercut and it doesn't need more buffs

Minalan · October 2016

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Force Pulse is fine, as far as damage abilities go. The cost needs some adjustment but the ability itself doesn't need much change.

The rest of the Destro staff needs a LOT of help though.
If they'd just make Penetrate magic apply to all spells instead of just Destro staff abilities, it would be vastly better overall. Add a reduce cost effect on to the Destruction Expert passive and suddenly those high costing Destro staff abilities aren't so bad either. The only thing then would be a slight buff in damage to Impulse and Touch/Clutch and Destro staff becomes useful.

Touch and clench get the dots, but the cost for that is absolutely out of line (4K). It should be half of that given what bow skills can do for 3K.. plus bow gets a passive to reduce cost

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · October 2016

Minalan wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Force Pulse is fine, as far as damage abilities go. The cost needs some adjustment but the ability itself doesn't need much change.

The rest of the Destro staff needs a LOT of help though.
If they'd just make Penetrate magic apply to all spells instead of just Destro staff abilities, it would be vastly better overall. Add a reduce cost effect on to the Destruction Expert passive and suddenly those high costing Destro staff abilities aren't so bad either. The only thing then would be a slight buff in damage to Impulse and Touch/Clutch and Destro staff becomes useful.

Touch and clench get the dots, but the cost for that is absolutely out of line (4K). It should be half of that given what bow skills can do for 3K.. plus bow gets a passive to reduce cost

Even in full light with max reduced cost in CP with a master staff, it costs around 450 more magic then force pulse. I would love to use reach as a spammable but even with the master staff, it hits for much less, like around 10k on my build and force pulse hits for 5k*3. Now I know that there is a dot but reflective light hits for around the same as force pulse AND hits 3 targets AND costs the same as force pulse AND has a better dot. This is with a master staff as well. Up the damage on the dot on destructive reach and make it worth slotting, at least in single target fights.

Izaki · October 2016

My take would be to add something more interesting to the ability.
Look at Heroic Slash: Snare, Minor Maim, Ulti regen + damage.
Force Pulse should be at the very least applying status effects or even better have a more interesting secondary effect.
Crushing Shock is good. But look at Venom Arrow: Interrupt + DoT + damage. So add in a similar effect to Force Pulse but to a lesser extent.

The damage of Force pulse is quite good though. Sorcs and NBs use it.

Natas013 · October 2016

I think force shock initial damage is fine, but I agree with increasing destro skills chance to add status effects. I also think it needs to be unreflecable or an animation change to actually look like a projectile.

DannyLV702 · October 2016

The only buff it needs is to make it unreflectable.

Minalan · October 2016

DannyLV702 wrote: »

The only buff it needs is to make it unreflectable.

That I can agree with, but that leaves destructive touch/reach and pulsar.

Vaoh · October 2016

Alanar wrote: »

If you have elemental drain on the target, Force Shock counts three times, which makes the ability effectively free. It also works well with Nerien'eth, since it counts as three damage abilities and three proc chances there as well. You'll also want to weave in elemental blockade, and maybe some appropriate class abilities, such as flames of oblivion and eruption for dk.

On the other hand, if you want a stronger ranged dps build for a dk, I just posted my ShockKnight build.

Pretty sure both of these perks (triple Nerieneth procs, triple magic return) were fixed.

So no. Neither of those things happen anymore. Hasn't been like that for many patches.