About animation cancelling

Kirameku · September 2016

Hey guys, first of all I want to apologize for my bad English since I'm not a native speaker

We all know that without animation cancelling you will never be a really good at eso. Learning how to do it boosts your dps/hps really a LOT - I don't know actual numbers but I'm sure that it's about 5-10k+. And you will never get to veteran trial without being able to do it because trial's dps requirements includes ability to cancel animation. New players usually make big eyes when I tell them about animation cancelling: "Wow such thing exists, where can I learn how to?" - they ask and I send them to youtube. And if they don't know that it exists they come to forums and cry that they can't dps as 'elitists'. Yes they can't, because it's just impossible to. So the game requires it, but doesn't tell how to, isn't it strange?
That's why I suggest adding instruction how to do it to Wailing prison. Everybody wins - less babyragers on forums, more good players.

Mic1007 · September 2016

Zenimax didn't want Animation Canceling in the first place. They first looked at it, tried to fix it, and gave up, saying that while unintentional, it'll have to stay. Then, a few updates later, they tried out a 'fix' for it on the PTS, and it was a big failure, so they retracted the fix to 'keep working on it'.

As it is, animation canceling is not encouraged by the devs, just tolerated due to the lack of other options. They won't make a tutorial for something they are officially trying to fix.

Kirameku · September 2016

But they require it in high-end content. If they didn't want it why do they require it then?

Mic1007 · September 2016

What high-end content needs it? As far as I know, you can do Vet Trials and vMA without it. It's just easier with animation canceling.

DHale · September 2016

All the Devs that play ESO are pretty good at animation cancelling so that tells you what you need to know. There are a number of you tube vids on it so please watch them.

rotaugen454 · September 2016

Animation cancelling is required for endgame ERP...

Wollust · September 2016

Mic1007 wrote: »

Zenimax didn't want Animation Canceling in the first place. They first looked at it, tried to fix it, and gave up, saying that while unintentional, it'll have to stay. Then, a few updates later, they tried out a 'fix' for it on the PTS, and it was a big failure, so they retracted the fix to 'keep working on it'.

As it is, animation canceling is not encouraged by the devs, just tolerated due to the lack of other options. They won't make a tutorial for something they are officially trying to fix.

Actually, Wrobel did encourage it on an ESO live episode.
Plus the changes they made came live in a later patch than planned, though they were awful and a lot of people are unhappy about it because combat feels clunkier ever since.
Anyway, those changes weren't about removing the core of AC, chaining different actions to maximize damage output and having a very dynamic combat.

Kirameku · September 2016

Mic1007 wrote: »

What high-end content needs it? As far as I know, you can do Vet Trials and vMA without it. It's just easier with animation canceling.

How much dps you have without AC? vMOL needs at least 25k+, 30k+ is comfort zone

KingMagaw · September 2016

Mic1007 wrote: »

What high-end content needs it? As far as I know, you can do Vet Trials and vMA without it. It's just easier with animation canceling.

While im sure you could leech on a Vet trial team by doing standard basic attacks, but that is what you would be doing, leeching. If you were in my group and i seen someone Steel Tornado/or any skill multiple times without ani cancelling i would say to them immediately and most likely never group with them again.

Some can say that is harsh but my personal time is limited and not to be eaten into by time wasters. I have yet to see any of the vet players playing without animation cancelling. I watch Fengrush, Alcast, Andy.s regularly.

I doubt you could even scratch vMA leader boards without ani cancelling, same as most leader boards i am sure. The DPS loss from not or junk ani cancelling is just too much over sustained battles.

Cryptical · September 2016

There's a diff between weaving and animation canceling. Let's not equate them.

Weaving is encouraged by design of the system, design of some sets that proc by a mix of attacks. Ani-cancel is encouraged by comment made after-the-fact. The two are hardly of comparable weight.

While it's here, animation canceling to squeeze more damage out of the same time span will be used by all. Once they get the code into a shape that will make it so people cannot stuff 3 abilities into the timespan of 2, while still being able to abort their offense to switch to defense, then ani-cancel will go away.

vyndral13preub18_ESO · September 2016

Cryptical wrote: »

There's a diff between weaving and animation canceling. Let's not equate them.

Weaving is encouraged by design of the system, design of some sets that proc by a mix of attacks. Ani-cancel is encouraged by comment made after-the-fact. The two are hardly of comparable weight.

While it's here, animation canceling to squeeze more damage out of the same time span will be used by all. Once they get the code into a shape that will make it so people cannot stuff 3 abilities into the timespan of 2, while still being able to abort their offense to switch to defense, then ani-cancel will go away.

Yeah... once they get the code into shape....

the_man_of_steal · September 2016

I agree with OP a tutorial made at the beginning of the game might help a lot of people. I have been working on animation canceling every day for months and still do not feel it is second nature to me so it takes time regardless of knowing about it. Would like for everyone to be working on this because it does make the game more intricate especially for PVP which is my BAE.

Alucardo · September 2016

Dual wielding gives you added spell damage. The game does not tell you that.
Improving weapons to gold gives you an additional 200 weapon/spell damage. The game does not tell you that.
Glyphs, and what each effect actually does (ie: disease = minor defile). The game does not tell you that.

There's a whole list of things that are important which the game doesn't tell you. I totally see where you're coming from, but I just don't think this kind of thing belongs in a tutorial. It would blow their minds.
Imagine entering the wailing prison for the first time playing ESO and Lyris says, "OK TO BEAT THIS DREMORA YOU WILL NEED TO ANIMATION CANCEL. LIGHT ATTACK, THEN USE THAT SKILL YOU HAVEN'T UNLOCKED YET, THEN BASH". After their first attempt they'll be out of stamina of course.

nine9six · September 2016

Kirameku wrote: »

But they require it in high-end content. If they didn't want it why do they require it then?

Because ZoS...

geonsocal · September 2016

Kirameku wrote: »

Hey guys, first of all I want to apologize for my bad English since I'm not a native speaker

We all know that without animation cancelling you will never be a really good at eso. Learning how to do it boosts your dps/hps really a LOT - I don't know actual numbers but I'm sure that it's about 5-10k+. And you will never get to veteran trial without being able to do it because trial's dps requirements includes ability to cancel animation. New players usually make big eyes when I tell them about animation cancelling: "Wow such thing exists, where can I learn how to?" - they ask and I send them to youtube. And if they don't know that it exists they come to forums and cry that they can't dps as 'elitists'. Yes they can't, because it's just impossible to. So the game requires it, but doesn't tell how to, isn't it strange?
That's why I suggest adding instruction how to do it to Wailing prison. Everybody wins - less babyragers on forums, more good players.

respectfully, I'm gonna have to disagree - you're English appears excellent to me

as far as ani cancelling - it definitely takes a while to make it work consistently...some abilities seem to make it easier than others...I would love to see more hints on what abilities and attacks work best together...

bebynnag · September 2016

ive seen a fe people recently state that animation canceling is unitended, but tollerated....

and yet content is scaled based on what the best players can achieve, and apparently ALL the best players animation cancel. so the hardest PvE content in the game is created and scaled around an unintended mechanic.... doesn't sit right with me at all!

BruceLeeroy91 · September 2016

Lol at this whole freaking post...to say that it is needed for endgame content is ridiculous, and to the bums saying they would belittle players who were not using it, I look forward to it being taken away and listening to all of your complaints. I have completed all PvE content without ani-cancelling and the fact is it's just another crutch. If your dps isn't high enough git gud, orget a better group. Yes right now the leaderboards are chalk full of ani cancelling scores because it is an available bug. That by no means makes it a requirement and is just ignorant to spew that kind of information especially to new community members.

lolo_01b16_ESO · September 2016

Kirameku wrote: »

Hey guys, first of all I want to apologize for my bad English since I'm not a native speaker

We all know that without animation cancelling you will never be a really good at eso. Learning how to do it boosts your dps/hps really a LOT - I don't know actual numbers but I'm sure that it's about 5-10k+. And you will never get to veteran trial without being able to do it because trial's dps requirements includes ability to cancel animation. New players usually make big eyes when I tell them about animation cancelling: "Wow such thing exists, where can I learn how to?" - they ask and I send them to youtube. And if they don't know that it exists they come to forums and cry that they can't dps as 'elitists'. Yes they can't, because it's just impossible to. So the game requires it, but doesn't tell how to, isn't it strange?
That's why I suggest adding instruction how to do it to Wailing prison. Everybody wins - less babyragers on forums, more good players.

You're a bit overexaggerating, most dps races can be done without animation canceling. Sure, I wouldn't attempt vMoL hm with a group where noone uses light attacks, but non hardmodes should be fine and probably also some of the easier hms.

Also I'm curious, are there that many player that make big eyes about animation canceling? I just know my perspective and the fact that you can do more attacks when you alternate between a skill and a light attack was one of the first things I figured out about the eso combat design, back in the beta, when I was killing stuff on the starter island with poison arrow spam.

KingMagaw · September 2016

BruceLeeroy91 wrote: »

I have completed all PvE content without ani-cancelling and the fact is it's just another crutch.

Please link your vMA run, or veteran MOL or any vet trial run where you didnt use animation cancelling?.

Awaiting your video....

bebynnag · September 2016

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

Kirameku wrote: »

Hey guys, first of all I want to apologize for my bad English since I'm not a native speaker

We all know that without animation cancelling you will never be a really good at eso. Learning how to do it boosts your dps/hps really a LOT - I don't know actual numbers but I'm sure that it's about 5-10k+. And you will never get to veteran trial without being able to do it because trial's dps requirements includes ability to cancel animation. New players usually make big eyes when I tell them about animation cancelling: "Wow such thing exists, where can I learn how to?" - they ask and I send them to youtube. And if they don't know that it exists they come to forums and cry that they can't dps as 'elitists'. Yes they can't, because it's just impossible to. So the game requires it, but doesn't tell how to, isn't it strange?
That's why I suggest adding instruction how to do it to Wailing prison. Everybody wins - less babyragers on forums, more good players.

You're a bit overexaggerating, most dps races can be done without animation canceling. Sure, I wouldn't attempt vMoL hm with a group where noone uses light attacks, but non hardmodes should be fine and probably also some of the easier hms.

Also I'm curious, are there that many player that make big eyes about animation canceling? I just know my perspective and the fact that you can do more attacks when you alternate between a skill and a light attack was one of the first things I figured out about the eso combat design, back in the beta, when I was killing stuff on the starter island with poison arrow spam.

what you are describing is weaving, force pulse, light attack, forcepulse, light attack etc

this is different to animation canceling which is a way to cast any non channel skill (eg RD) which has a cast time (eg snipe) in a shorter period of time

Koolio · September 2016

Before playing the elder scrolls online I play a lot of DC Universe online. I had started the character and got to an OK rank. I join the guild that did a lot of end game content and have been around since the beginning of the game. Being very low geared without a lot of skill points my DPS was in a very bad spot. One of the guild officers told me about animation canceling. I am mediately upped my DPS significantly. I spent all day learning what to cancel into what and when. Even if nobody was on that's all I did. It made combat a lot more fun and more fluid. Since there were numbers at the end of a dungeon letting me know how much damage I did for the entire duration I always wanted to be the highest on the board. Even with low gear I began to be on top just from animation canceling. You could tell who had been able to do it and who could not do it. They didn't give any tutorials it was just something to people in the game knew. They started to try to tweak it and ended up breaking it for me. About that time elder scrolls came out. Being a huge fan I bought it and started playing every day. I ran in first person immediately realized this game you could animation cancel in as well. I immediately fell in love. Same with this game I spent all day every day learning what to do. Please don't take this away because some players cry about it. The moment I saw you were "tweaking" this I was worried. And of course you made combat slower. I could live with the changes as on live. But if you remove this a WELL paying customer is gone. I can live with unintended bug staying in the game for months at a time a.k.a. clouding swarm. But if you remove this completely I will break this game like my smoking habit. "Crying myself to sleep every night" LOL

KingMagaw · September 2016

One of the best weaves i have found is LA/Surprise attack, can be done amazingly fast.

Every skill has its best counter to ani cancel with. Block and bar swapping being the most common. The time it takes to cast endless hail properly and the time it takes to cast it and immediately bar swap is maybe 2 seconds difference.

First example is that your doing 0 Damage per second while in the animation of casting endless hail.

Secondly example you could of cast endless hail and LA/Surprise attacked once. The DPS gain in my eyes is massive.

This is scratching the surface. Going further would be exploring using an ability/bar-swapping so that the skill cast/used procs off the weapon you just swapped to lol

There are many broken mechanics in ESO. Most dont like talking about them because why give out information to someone who they may fight, for free nonetheless.

Ch4mpTW · September 2016

rotaugen454 wrote: »

Animation cancelling is required for endgame ERP...

I hate to be "that guy", but as I said in a previously closed thread about this topic – it's not. Animation cancelling is not required to complete endgame content.

Animation cancelling is a technique that is utilized to add more things into your rotation in a given amount amount of time, and thus often times than not increase your overall damage per second. However, it's much often nowadays a crutch for those who utilize it. Most people struggle with endgame content without it, or simply can't complete it at all. Which is rather sad, due to the fact that an individual should have knowledge of: Class skills, class strengths and weaknesses, content mechanics, etc. inside and out before even being bothered with animation cancelling.

Mic1007 · September 2016

I love how people think you can't hit high numbers without animation canceling.

Without any canceling, I range from 20k dps in all dps runs in 4-man dungeons - with bosses at full armor - to around 30k in decent groups. I imagine it will be higher in groups that use Aggressive Horn.

This is without Maelstrom Weapons.

Ch4mpTW · September 2016

Mic1007 wrote: »

I love how people think you can't hit high numbers without animation canceling.

Without any canceling, I range from 20k dps in all dps runs in 4-man dungeons - with bosses at full armor - to around 30k in decent groups. I imagine it will be higher in groups that use Aggressive Horn.

This is without Maelstrom Weapons.

That's what I'm saying. I know people who're overall better players than I am, and have all their characters with the Flawless Conqueror title. Some of which even regularly clear VMoL, and they don't have the slightest clue about what animation cancelling even is. Let alone how to do it. But yet and still, if brought into a trial, their performance is always absolutely amazing. It's kinda humbling, because it says to me, "Damn, if this person is so nice at the game without animation cancelling — what would their performance be like if they mastered that technique?"

Mic1007 · September 2016

They'd all be Alcasts.

Lord_Wrath · September 2016

My only issue with anicancelling is in PvP. People drop like flies against good players anicancelling. We've all been ganked at one point without seeing as much as a sword swing and little to no time to respond in defense. It blows the fun out of PvP and you cant tell me it doesnt discourage newbies.

I don't see this as skill, yes - to anicancel successfully takes skill to get it down, but its just cheap in terms of pvp challenge. The funnest of fights for me are against good players that dont anicancel for one reason being the simple fact that fights can last longer than 10s but mostly because you attack and defend based off what you see, this is skill. You wont catch me patting myself on the back because I can shortcut. However, as it is well known in the game you have to learn it to be competitive.

Minute_Waltz · September 2016

For those saying weaving/animation cancelling is not required, please show me a 60k dps parse without using them.

Here is my 60k bloodspawn dps with light atk weaving and animation cancelling to back up the argument that they are essential for endgame.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=od4CvFdOLmw

Mic1007 · September 2016

Minute_Waltz wrote: »

For those saying weaving/animation cancelling is not required, please show me a 60k dps parse without using them.

Here is my 60k bloodspawn dps with light atk weaving and animation cancelling to back up the argument that they are essential for endgame.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=od4CvFdOLmw

Do you need 60k DPS for endgame? Or does it just make Trials a whole lot easier? There's a difference between what is needed to complete content, and what is needed to excel at content.

Minute_Waltz · September 2016

Mic1007 wrote: »

Minute_Waltz wrote: »

For those saying weaving/animation cancelling is not required, please show me a 60k dps parse without using them.

Here is my 60k bloodspawn dps with light atk weaving and animation cancelling to back up the argument that they are essential for endgame.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=od4CvFdOLmw

Do you need 60k DPS for endgame? Or does it just make Trials a whole lot easier? There's a difference between what is needed to complete content, and what is needed to excel at content.

Not necessarily 60k, but high DPS is pretty much essential now with scaled trials, I've ran with pugs in vet trials where I could contribute 30% group dps by myself, but we still couldn't kill the boss due to low group dps and eventually it enrages and kills everyone.

AtmaDarkwolf · September 2016

this is a weird argument, but I do agree..somewhat.

I'm ok with weaving - when it FLOWS in a logical way (IE la/ha + funnel/crushing, etc) because it actually appears to be a true use of both skill and attack.

But I don't like the idea of people 'twitching' and somehow tossing out a arrow, smashing you in the face AND unleashing a rain of arrows all in one split second. IMO skills that have 'channeled' animations should be canceled when you 'skip' the animation.

I mean, for a moment, compare it to real life. You can 'toss' a ball with one hand and with a fluid motion toss the next 'ball' into your dominant hand with one fluid, smooth, 'logical' motion (Compare this with weaving)

But you can't toss a ball, cover your head, throw a armful of balls up into air, AND toss 2 more balls into each hand (with said hands, IE Juggle) yet somehow, by all appearances, do a little convulsion. (Compare this with animation cancel)

Basically, I feel that they need to go over every skill and check which ones 'flow' well with other skills/light/heavy attacks and which do NOT (IE skills like tornado, barrage, etc) that have obvious, logical 'animations' that if, done naturally, could NOT be considered 'finished' unless the animation is allowed to complete.

And no, this isn't from someone who 'can't' do it. I do it. And yes, because of canceling I can push my dps from 15-20k to 25-30k quite easily. And yes, I DO think its not right. I also know that I can do much(most, prob all) content WITHOUT either cancel or weave. Although I DO feel weaving BELONGS, many AC simply has to be 'fixed' (Said skills need to have a 'effect only when animation completes' tag.)