Everything is doable, but in general, content is a bit harder without a DK tank and a Templar healer. DK tanks can stack stuff up with chains and hold it in place for AoEing with Talons. They also have better resource management. That equates to more DPS, a quicker dungeon, and less adds attacking healers/dps. Templar is the only class that can sustain the groups stamina, which makes anyone playing a stam build prefer Templar healers over others. Repentance also keeps the group alive because people can block cast more. Templar also has BoL, which adds a cushion for playing badly and is more reliable than the Pet Heal.

In other words, are other classes incapable of healing and tanking a successful run? No. I just did vWGT with an awesome Sorc Healer. Templar is simply better at healing and support than other classes and DK is better at tanking and mob control than other classes.

IMO, if you want to roll a Sorc Healer you probably want to stop pugging and find a large, open-minded PvE guild.

I formed a group today as a Sorc tank for vWGT and the guy made me prove I had beaten the content AND made double sure to check if I was ABSOLUTELY sure it could be beaten with a Sorc Tank.

Haters gonna hate.

Some tanks like to burn their stam so they need constant shards/repentance, that's really the only possible thing that could devalue a Sorc healer. You got the burstiest heals in the game!

timidobserver wrote: »

Everything is doable, but in general, content is a bit harder without a DK tank and a Templar healer. DK tanks can stack stuff up with chains and hold it in place for AoEing with Talons. They also have better resource management. That equates to more DPS, a quicker dungeon, and less adds attacking healers/dps. Templar is the only class that can sustain the groups stamina, which makes anyone playing a stam build prefer Templar healers over others. Repentance also keeps the group alive because people can block cast more. Templar also has BoL, which adds a cushion for playing badly and is more reliable than the Pet Heal.

In other words, are other classes incapable of healing and tanking a successful run? No. I just did vWGT with an awesome Sorc Healer. Templar is simply better at healing and support than other classes and DK is better at tanking and mob control than other classes.

IMO, if you want to roll a Sorc Healer you probably want to stop pugging and find a large, open-minded PvE guild.

The only reason why any content would be harder without a DK tank & a Templar heal would be if the rest of group were unable to adapt to a non-standard group setup.

About Tanks :
First, I can't deny the fact that chains are great, but DKs aren't the only ones who can hold mobs in place (the sorcerer, for example, has access to much more CC diversity). Second, Nightblades and Sorcerers have nothing to envy to the DK's resource management. Really nothing (can't speak for the templar tank since I don't know enough about them). Third, If you're after more DPS and a quicker dungeon, you'd better bring or magicka nightblade tank, or a nightblade healer, or even both since DPSing is actually how they do their tank/heal job efficiently.

About Healers :
First, templar isn't the only class taht can sustain the group's stamina. Everyone can do that with a Master's Restoration staff (prefarbly Infused). You just need to farm vDSA to get it. By the way, I just completed it yesterday on my sorcerer tank, with a nightblade healer, and I can assure you that the DPS she added was a real blessing, and that's something that a templar would have had much more difficulty to provide. Second, I'm not sure to understand what you mean about repentance and block cast, but if I understood correctly, I think the master's restoration staff would do a much better job than repentance (and I'm not even mentioning the Sentinel of Rkugamz monster helm coming with One Tamriel). Third, I don't think that saying that templar are better at healing because they can fix people's mistakes more easily is a very good arguement, since in end game content, you tend to avoid playing badly, but anyway, everyone has access to a what you call a "cushion", and I don't think that one is really much more efficient than another (pet heal, healing ward, etc...). Here again, if you're a DD and you know that you're going to play with a non-templar healer, you don't run away from him for no reason, you pay attention to what you're doing, wich is what every good player must do.

This is why I disagree with you about the fact that one class is better than another at tanking or healing, and I'll be really happy the day people will understand that. Spreading ideas like that on the forum is a real handicap for TESO's diversity.
On the other hand, I totally agree with you on the fact that the most enjoyable way to play a sorc healer (or any non templar healer) is to find and open-minded PvE Guild, because sadly, the vast majority of PUs will always apply what they've read on the forum or what they've been told ingame, wich is that healers must be templars and tanks must be DK, and that anyone not following that rules doesn't deserve any kind of respect.

CreepyPahuska wrote: »

I don't think that saying that templar are better at healing because they can fix people's mistakes more easily is a very good arguement...

This. ^

CreepyPahuska wrote: »

This is why I disagree with you about the fact that one class is better than another at tanking or healing, and I'll be really happy the day people will understand that. Spreading ideas like that on the forum is a real handicap for TESO's diversity.

And this. ^

yes all classes can heal. and yes theres all that gear that can add to a non Templar healer. That gear can also be added to a Templar healer..... and look at the dung. vWGT...... I personally wont even run vwgt with pugs as its generally a waste of time. and those few times I do AND beat it I generally add to my friends list. That being said before I do even try I do check CP/Mics/class etc as with a GOOD group vwgt takes twice as long as other dung and takes communication and TEAMWORK. You can drag 2 bad players through most vet dung. You cant really drag even 1 bad player through vwgt. so though yes you might be good, did you have a mic? that to me means the MOST in vwgt. and then yes the dung itself lends to a bit more narrow minded, where I get a random I DONT KNOW and I wonder why would I waste the little time I get to play as an adult where I would be more open minded if it was a friend that I KNEW was competent. I run a ton of randoms and generally don't pay a whole lot of attention to roles til we are in the thick of the dung, that being said Vwgt/vICP/vruins/vcradle are 4 where I wanna see 1st a MIC and then competence.

CreepyPahuska wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

Everything is doable, but in general, content is a bit harder without a DK tank and a Templar healer. DK tanks can stack stuff up with chains and hold it in place for AoEing with Talons. They also have better resource management. That equates to more DPS, a quicker dungeon, and less adds attacking healers/dps. Templar is the only class that can sustain the groups stamina, which makes anyone playing a stam build prefer Templar healers over others. Repentance also keeps the group alive because people can block cast more. Templar also has BoL, which adds a cushion for playing badly and is more reliable than the Pet Heal.

In other words, are other classes incapable of healing and tanking a successful run? No. I just did vWGT with an awesome Sorc Healer. Templar is simply better at healing and support than other classes and DK is better at tanking and mob control than other classes.

IMO, if you want to roll a Sorc Healer you probably want to stop pugging and find a large, open-minded PvE guild.

The only reason why any content would be harder without a DK tank & a Templar heal would be if the rest of group were unable to adapt to a non-standard group setup.

About Tanks :
First, I can't deny the fact that chains are great, but DKs aren't the only ones who can hold mobs in place (the sorcerer, for example, has access to much more CC diversity). Second, Nightblades and Sorcerers have nothing to envy to the DK's resource management. Really nothing (can't speak for the templar tank since I don't know enough about them). Third, If you're after more DPS and a quicker dungeon, you'd better bring or magicka nightblade tank, or a nightblade healer, or even both since DPSing is actually how they do their tank/heal job efficiently.

About Healers :
First, templar isn't the only class taht can sustain the group's stamina. Everyone can do that with a Master's Restoration staff (prefarbly Infused). You just need to farm vDSA to get it. By the way, I just completed it yesterday on my sorcerer tank, with a nightblade healer, and I can assure you that the DPS she added was a real blessing, and that's something that a templar would have had much more difficulty to provide. Second, I'm not sure to understand what you mean about repentance and block cast, but if I understood correctly, I think the master's restoration staff would do a much better job than repentance (and I'm not even mentioning the Sentinel of Rkugamz monster helm coming with One Tamriel). Third, I don't think that saying that templar are better at healing because they can fix people's mistakes more easily is a very good arguement, since in end game content, you tend to avoid playing badly, but anyway, everyone has access to a what you call a "cushion", and I don't think that one is really much more efficient than another (pet heal, healing ward, etc...). Here again, if you're a DD and you know that you're going to play with a non-templar healer, you don't run away from him for no reason, you pay attention to what you're doing, wich is what every good player must do.

This is why I disagree with you about the fact that one class is better than another at tanking or healing, and I'll be really happy the day people will understand that. Spreading ideas like that on the forum is a real handicap for TESO's diversity.
On the other hand, I totally agree with you on the fact that the most enjoyable way to play a sorc healer (or any non templar healer) is to find and open-minded PvE Guild, because sadly, the vast majority of PUs will always apply what they've read on the forum or what they've been told ingame, wich is that healers must be templars and tanks must be DK, and that anyone not following that rules doesn't deserve any kind of respect.

You can deny it or ignore it all you want. However, some classes have better tanking and healing/support tools than others. That is just a fact of ESO. Those tools can make completing content easier or more efficient. Should decent/average/open-minded groups be able to get the job done without those tools? Absolutely because most of this game's content that hard, but it's still a fact that certain classes have better tools for doing certain things.

Pugging is always going to be hit or miss, so you should expect pug groups to try their best to get as many things in their favor as they can. Like you said, I recommend PvE guilds to Sorc Healers as opposed to pugging. If the guild is decent, Vet Trial HM attempts aside, people won't really care what you tank or heal with.

altemriel wrote: »

I always run pug groups, maybe like 2% of the time I meet stupid people who need to insult others or who need to behave like they are awesome veteran gods and noone else can play this game. I started to put these people to ignore list, the world is a better place now without them, problem solved

I do that too. My ignore list is long. Maybe I'm a jerk-magnet?

crcraig wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

crcraig wrote: »

I don't think you read his post. The "tools" you're talking about exist. Just because they aren't in the cookie cutter, flavor of the month form doesn't mean they don't.

I did read it. I didn't say the tools don't exist. I said that some classes have better tools. Better is the important part there. I don't really feel like going into all of his examples, but I'll just pick one. He is right that the master restoration staff helps non-Templar have a little bit of group stamina management, but a Templar with that same master restoration staff as well as Shards and Repentance is still going to provide better stamina management. No class can equal Templar on stamina management. Should groups be able to get by without that, absolutely they should, but that doesn't change the fact that no class is better at stamina support than Templar right now.

When you have a system where one class can be better at something than another, you are going to have players that only want the best fit for each role. It's best to just accept that you are going to occasionally run into those players or just stop pugging.

You're going to need to provide some numbers and prove that, otherwise better is just a subjective position based on preference. Which is what this discussion is poking at. Thanks for reinforcing that.

So, you are wanting me to numerically compare the amount of stamina restored by the master restoration staff alone to the amount of stamina restored by the master restoration staff, shards, and repentance combined? If you need numbers in order to figure out which is better, I can't help you.

crcraig wrote: »

It's a bigger questions than that. You're either not reading people's posts or you're so stuck in a one dimensional way of looking at this game that you (and many others) are unable to see. Templar is only better based on circumstances, players, and everyone else's builds and skills. The simple fact alone that so many people just mindlessly point at Templar and say, "BETTER!" without regard to the other classes, other players, other uses of all of those skills and abilities and how they actually work together demonstrates you are being subjective. This is the point people like me and many, many others continue to point out. To think any single class in this game will out-perform any other single class in this game in any given role in an environment in which other people and other classes are involved, is to not only make the massive assumption that there is only one way to play everything, but it demonstrates how poorly the depth of the classes and skills available are understood.

But by all means, use the Templar. They are great. You want to see how deep this game can be? How diverse the options really are? Or you want to play like WoW? I won't bother rewriting what others in this threat already have about how other classes can do things together than change the needs, change the options, and all the sudden...the Templar is no longer needing to be used the same. This game has more to offer if people would hop of the bandwagon and think about it.

It is better at certain stuff. It's like the word better offends you or something. Like I said earlier, that stuff can be worked around by open-minded players, but that doesn't change that certain classes are better at certain things.

So you'd be ready to use 1 Weapon slot, 1 Head slot, 1 Shoulder slot and 2 skills slots just to be the best stamina potion ? Focusing too much on something can become a waste of resources, and that's how you make a bad build. You're talking about theorical stuff, totally eluding the practical aspect, wich leads me to think that you haven't seriously tested the things you talk about.
My point is that if you want to provide stamina for your group members, any class can be efficient enough, thanks to this staff. All it takes is a weapon slot, and no skill slot at all, since in a trial you're gonna use the healing springs anyway, thus returning stamina effortlessly. Besides, it's not just "a little bit" of stamina, but you'd know that if you'd have tried it yourself. Now can the templar give even more stamina ? Yes. Is it necessary to give even more stamina ? Or wouldn't it be better to take advantage of the others ways your class have to support your group ? That's the real question.
Stamina management isn't the holy grail of healing. There are many other things a healer can do. Just take off your blinders and see for yourself, try differents things instead of repeating what you've heard/read. You come here and say "Templar best healer", but have you even tried to heal on at least one other class ? I'm very confident that you didn't.

I'm done with this debate. If you want to educate yourself, just search the forum, there are many threads about that, with serious people who actually know what they're talking about, you could learn a lot from them.

It is better at certain stuff. It's like the word better offends you or something. Like I said earlier, that stuff can be worked around by open-minded players, but that doesn't change that certain classes are better at certain things.

I don't wanna speak for him, but I think it's mostly because you keep throwing "better better better" again and again, and we're still waiting for at least one single acceptable argument supporting that statement.

@crcraig I totally understand your frustration, but trust me, educating people here is a waste of time. Best you can do is give up on PuGs and find a real open minded guild.

Shaiba wrote: »

@ The guy who said only the templar has a "cushion" skill, and only templar can give stamina back : seems you're not familiar with non-templar healer cause every healer has access to an "oh ***" "panic" or "cushion" button.
No class can outperform a templar in stamina management, ofc. Like no templar can outperform a NB healer in adding DPS to his group, no templar can outperform a sorc's flash heal/CCing, no templar can outperform DK at CCing, shielding and buffing. OFC they're all different classes, if every classes offered the same advantages and disadvantages why would you pick one instead of another ?
And I recommend you to test by yourself the Master Resto Staff 160 CP Infused in vet Trials (if you haven't done it already ^^), I assure you it's not just "a little bit of stamina management" (we know that it gives stamina back to 12 people, shards only one guy at a time, repentance only during "adds" phase). And if you still want to give more than that, new monster set can help you specializes in stamina management (but you won't be able to use 5 SPC+5Aether/wormcul/gossamer+1Master anymore, this could be a problem for you or your group, specially for raids). Of course you can use Master Resto Staff as a Templar, it's not as "needed" as it is on a non templar healer, if you don't have better weapon/set to use on your templar healer why not then. And we don't forget that for templar who don't use master resto staff, it'll take 2 skill slots for them to give stam back to their team. Non-templar healer don't use skill slots to give stamina back, they can add other skills, provide other form of support to their team (CC, DPS, Buff and such) while providing stamina management.

I am only going to address the pieces of this that seem to be aimed at me? I didn't say "only" Templar could do these things. I said they are better at it. Templar can also use the master restoration staff and their cushion skill is better and/or more reliable than others. I have also said that decent group should be able to work around not having a Templar healer, but everybody ignores that lol.

Fastest dungeon I've ever completed was me on my NB healer with 3 other NB dps. Finished Vwayrest in 15 min flat lol. I was skeptical but with all the aoe and funnel health it was just a steady pace of death the whole way thru. They NERFEF Funnel health for a reason ;-)

I understands how OP exactly OP felt. I main Nightblade Healer and everytime I volunteer myself to heal for a group, they hesitant to bring me. This is what happened when ZoS decided to make Stamina DPS over the top and everyone is Stam DPS nowadays that prefer Templar.