Cruel Flurry (VMA DW) nerfed - your opinion?

DPShiro · September 2016

Cruel Flurry (Maelstrom Dual Wield enchantment): Reduced this enchantment’s bonus to Weapon and Spell Damage on your next single-target damage over time ability to 2003 from 3096.

Good or bad?

A bit of a kick in the face to all who have farmed 500+ runs for perfect traits.

susmitds · September 2016

Now, once again magicka DPS will outdo stamina DPS in trials.

Dracane · September 2016

Good change.
It will decrease the gap between magicka and stamina a bit.

I would much prefer buffs to magicka instead of nerfs to stam. But 3000 spell/weapon damage was too high in the first place.
That's one of these things, that should have been different in the first place.
Many will be upset. But 2000 damage is still so much, it will still be the number 1.

Iyas · September 2016

Good change

Alcast · September 2016

Nurf the Nurfing, more nurf inc
Well at least now some non-maelstrom weapon setups might be able to """"compete""""

I rather hoped they buffed some magicka stuff instead of nurfing

arkansas_ESO · September 2016

It's a good change, the weapons were overperforming. Lessens the gap between magicka and stamina as well.

Xrucible · September 2016

Finally a much needed nerf..

Strider_Roshin · September 2016

Good change. Those weapons are ridiculously OP.

Darkdex · September 2016

They were OP AF (and i'm a Cruel flurry user, with stamblade and stamDK), The nerf is huge, but they are still BiS and maybe the magicka user stop complaining about DPS (which is nonsense from my perspective, because if you are close up and personal, you must deal moar damage IMHO), this closes the gap between Magicka and Stamina for Endagame content.

Not very happy bout this, but it's ok, because it will enable more build variety.

Silver_Strider · September 2016

Great change, it makes it be come less of an issue for magic builds to keep up with stamina.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'd like to finish my cup of guildmate tears in peace.

SunWithLegs · September 2016

Good change, they were too OP ( stamdk user here ), it was about time they nerfed them!

Dracane · September 2016

Darkdex wrote: »

They were OP AF (and i'm a Cruel flurry user, with stamblade and stamDK), The nerf is huge, but they are still BiS and maybe the magicka user stop complaining about DPS (which is nonsense from my perspective, because if you are close up and personal, you must deal moar damage IMHO), this closes the gap between Magicka and Stamina for Endagame content.

Not very happy bout this, but it's ok, because it will enable more build variety.

So being in light armor with less mitigation should result in less damage than being in medium armor, with more natural mitigation ?

In my opinion, magicka should always deal more damage, provided they are wearing light armor.
Ranged attacks should gain a 10% damage bonus when used within melee range. Because a light armor user who gets close up, should deal more damage than a medium armor melee. But it doesn't.

Nifty2g · September 2016

susmitds wrote: »

Now, once again magicka DPS will outdo stamina DPS in trials.

Probably not, the change is only going to reduce stamina dps by ~5k (or less)

Asmael · September 2016

Objectively completely overperforming and crushing all other melee setups. This will probably allow more viable stamina builds, which is about time, it might finally be possible to do choose two 5p sets and a 2p monster set without gimping yourself to massive extent.

ArtOfShred · September 2016

Good change, probably not enough to see any variation in the meta, but we'll see.

Nifty2g · September 2016

Dracane wrote: »

Darkdex wrote: »

They were OP AF (and i'm a Cruel flurry user, with stamblade and stamDK), The nerf is huge, but they are still BiS and maybe the magicka user stop complaining about DPS (which is nonsense from my perspective, because if you are close up and personal, you must deal moar damage IMHO), this closes the gap between Magicka and Stamina for Endagame content.

Not very happy bout this, but it's ok, because it will enable more build variety.

So being in light armor with less mitigation should result in less damage than being in medium armor, with more natural mitigation ?

In my opinion, magicka should always deal more damage, provided they are wearing light armor.
Ranged attacks should gain a 10% damage bonus when used within melee range. Because a light armor user who gets close up, should deal more damage than a medium armor melee. But it doesn't.

Huh? Magicka should not be infront of Stamina
It is a risk reward scenario, magicka has so much shield stacking, stamina does not

susmitds · September 2016

Dracane wrote: »

Darkdex wrote: »

They were OP AF (and i'm a Cruel flurry user, with stamblade and stamDK), The nerf is huge, but they are still BiS and maybe the magicka user stop complaining about DPS (which is nonsense from my perspective, because if you are close up and personal, you must deal moar damage IMHO), this closes the gap between Magicka and Stamina for Endagame content.

Not very happy bout this, but it's ok, because it will enable more build variety.

So being in light armor with less mitigation should result in less damage than being in medium armor, with more natural mitigation ?

In my opinion, magicka should always deal more damage, provided they are wearing light armor.
Ranged attacks should gain a 10% damage bonus when used within melee range. Because a light armor user who gets close up, should deal more damage than a medium armor melee. But it doesn't.

Light armor takes only 7% extra damage. Magicka users can tank and heal far better than stamina users. Stamina users have to be in the melee range to fight. All trial and new dungeon bosses have anti-melee one shot mechanics as well anti-stacking mechanics. There is a reason why over 24 magicka damage dealers have finished vMOL hard mode, while only 2 stamina DDs in the whole world have done so.

DangerMan · September 2016

ZOS insists on nerfing Stam users (my main is a StamDK), rather than buffing Magicka users (I also have a Stormproof MagSorc, a MagBlade, and a MagTemp)

I stopped playing on my StamDK for a while after the Green Dragon Blood nerf.. I only started using him again once I had the vMA axes with the proper traits.. But with this happening now I guess now it's time to stop playing the game entirely..

Vezuls · September 2016

Not that big of a deal. I play stam and Mag, and while it sucks this happened, the other VMA weapons were noticeably lacking. I guess they didn't want to buff the others?

And most people think this is a big deal. It isn't. It's about a 30% decrease to the actual enchantment, but that doesn't mean stam builds do 30% less dps. It doesn't even mean stam builds DoT damage does 30% less. You simply have 1k less wpn damage awarded to those DoT's. In all honesty stam probably loses 2-4k dps.

So let's say fully buffed you have around 35k max stam, 4k weapon damage, and 3k weapon damage from the VMA enchant. All those stats effect the damage done by the DoTs.

So now, 35k max stam, 4k weapon damage, 2k weapon damage from VMA enchant.

For the sake of simplicity, I'll convert 35k max stam to weapon damage (I remember reading that 10 max stam = 1 weapon damage, whether that is true or not is irrelevant)

Live Server: 3.5k + 4k + 3k = 10.5k weapon damage awarded to DoTs
PTS Server: 3.5k + 4k + 2k = 9.5k weapon damage awarded to DoTs

9.5k / 10.5k = 90.4%

On PTS server, our DoT's will be doing 90% of the damage they do on live. That means this change reduced stam build DoT damage by around 10%, which would equate to most likely 2-4k dps in a full raid environment.

I analyzed a parse from a PC player that was posted in a stream. Stam DK he did 53k dps, DoT's accounted for 22k of the dps. If the same exact scenario were to play out on PTS, he would do about 2.2k less dps and total at about 51k dps. And remember, stam DK gets the most effected by this due to their extra DoT, and it's still not a crazy amount.

Of course, the max stam into weapon damage isn't exactly reliable, because all abilities have a different coefficient calculator for the amount of damage they due, but all I did here was try to help visualize what all goes into the damage you're doing. At face value, it looks like a devastating nerf, but upon further analysis we see it's not as bad as it seems.

Of course, this will be tested by the guys on PTS do give us exact values of how it works in game, but doing some simple math shows us that it is a huge nerf.

The balance will be how it should be: Stamina Melee should be out damaging Ranged Magic due to being closer to the boss and more vulnerable to mechanics (not having access to a shield).

@Nifty2g and @Gilliamtherogue will probably test this and see if this sounds about right, but bottom line is no more than 4 or 5k dps should be lost, unless something is really off about ZoS's algorithms.

DHale · September 2016

No nerfs. Nerf the nerf talk. There has not been one nerf that has helped this game. One purge flurry dot is gone. Well actually one vigor and its gone.

Alcast · September 2016

Also guys,

Dracane wrote: »

Darkdex wrote: »

They were OP AF (and i'm a Cruel flurry user, with stamblade and stamDK), The nerf is huge, but they are still BiS and maybe the magicka user stop complaining about DPS (which is nonsense from my perspective, because if you are close up and personal, you must deal moar damage IMHO), this closes the gap between Magicka and Stamina for Endagame content.

Not very happy bout this, but it's ok, because it will enable more build variety.

So being in light armor with less mitigation should result in less damage than being in medium armor, with more natural mitigation ?

In my opinion, magicka should always deal more damage, provided they are wearing light armor.
Ranged attacks should gain a 10% damage bonus when used within melee range. Because a light armor user who gets close up, should deal more damage than a medium armor melee. But it doesn't.

You do realize that the top DPS for vmol hardmode is a Magplar atm right?

Nontheless, thje nerf was a good choice, I just wish they buffed magicka instead of nurfing stuff. Well maybe now weap crit pots will get cheaper again

shrb · September 2016

Nifty2g wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Darkdex wrote: »

They were OP AF (and i'm a Cruel flurry user, with stamblade and stamDK), The nerf is huge, but they are still BiS and maybe the magicka user stop complaining about DPS (which is nonsense from my perspective, because if you are close up and personal, you must deal moar damage IMHO), this closes the gap between Magicka and Stamina for Endagame content.

Not very happy bout this, but it's ok, because it will enable more build variety.

So being in light armor with less mitigation should result in less damage than being in medium armor, with more natural mitigation ?

In my opinion, magicka should always deal more damage, provided they are wearing light armor.
Ranged attacks should gain a 10% damage bonus when used within melee range. Because a light armor user who gets close up, should deal more damage than a medium armor melee. But it doesn't.

Huh? Magicka should not be infront of Stamina
It is a risk reward scenario, magicka has so much shield stacking, stamina does not

There are a LOT of close range magicka abilities
And medium has so much more dodging (which doesn't eat up your skill slots)

You can go around this for ages, the thing it boils down to is:
Heavy is for mitigration. Ok.
Then medium and light, that are both for dps, why do they have different innate defenses?

Dps should NEVER be balanced around range<melee

They should each excel in specific fights, yes, but a blanket "moar damage, moar mitigration, cause melee" is never the right way to go for it.

susmitds · September 2016

shrb wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Darkdex wrote: »

They were OP AF (and i'm a Cruel flurry user, with stamblade and stamDK), The nerf is huge, but they are still BiS and maybe the magicka user stop complaining about DPS (which is nonsense from my perspective, because if you are close up and personal, you must deal moar damage IMHO), this closes the gap between Magicka and Stamina for Endagame content.

Not very happy bout this, but it's ok, because it will enable more build variety.

So being in light armor with less mitigation should result in less damage than being in medium armor, with more natural mitigation ?

In my opinion, magicka should always deal more damage, provided they are wearing light armor.
Ranged attacks should gain a 10% damage bonus when used within melee range. Because a light armor user who gets close up, should deal more damage than a medium armor melee. But it doesn't.

Huh? Magicka should not be infront of Stamina
It is a risk reward scenario, magicka has so much shield stacking, stamina does not

There are a LOT of close range magicka abilities
And medium has so much more dodging (which doesn't eat up your skill slots)

You can go around this for ages, the thing it boils down to is:
Heavy is for mitigration. Ok.
Then medium and light, that are both for dps, why do they have different innate defenses?

Which end-game vet trial has dodge-able attacks in the first place?

DangerMan · September 2016

Vezuls wrote: »

Not that big of a deal. I play stam and Mag, and while it sucks this happened, the other VMA weapons were noticeably lacking. I guess they didn't want to buff the others?

And most people think this is a big deal. It isn't. It's about a 30% decrease to the actual enchantment, but that doesn't mean stam builds do 30% less dps. It doesn't even mean stam builds DoT damage does 30% less. You simply have 1k less wpn damage awarded to those DoT's. In all honesty stam probably loses 2-4k dps.

So let's say fully buffed you have around 35k max stam, 4k weapon damage, and 3k weapon damage from the VMA enchant. All those stats effect the damage done by the DoTs.

So now, 35k max stam, 4k weapon damage, 2k weapon damage from VMA enchant.

For the sake of simplicity, I'll convert 35k max stam to weapon damage (I remember reading that 10 max stam = 1 weapon damage, whether that is true or not is irrelevant)

Live Server: 3.5k + 4k + 3k = 10.5k weapon damage awarded to DoTs
PTS Server: 3.5k + 4k + 2k = 9.5k weapon damage awarded to DoTs

9.5k / 10.5k = 90.4%

On PTS server, our DoT's will be doing 90% of the damage they do on live. That means this change reduced stam build DoT damage by around 10%, which would equate to most likely 2-4k dps in a full raid environment.

I analyzed a parse from a PC player that was posted in a stream. Stam DK he did 53k dps, DoT's accounted for 22k of the dps. If the same exact scenario were to play out on PTS, he would do about 2.2k less dps and total at about 51k dps. And remember, stam DK gets the most effected by this due to their extra DoT, and it's still not a crazy amount.

Of course, the max stam into weapon damage isn't exactly reliable, because all abilities have a different coefficient calculator for the amount of damage they due, but all I did here was try to help visualize what all goes into the damage you're doing. At face value, it looks like a devastating nerf, but upon further analysis we see it's not as bad as it seems.

Of course, this will be tested by the guys on PTS do give us exact values of how it works in game, but doing some simple math shows us that it is a huge nerf.

The balance will be how it should be: Stamina Melee should be out damaging Ranged Magic due to being closer to the boss and more vulnerable to mechanics (not having access to a shield).

I agree, it's not a significant dps loss, but why does ZOS always nerf something rather than buff another thing to balance out the game?

Nifty2g · September 2016

Alcast wrote: »

Also guys,

Dracane wrote: »

Darkdex wrote: »

They were OP AF (and i'm a Cruel flurry user, with stamblade and stamDK), The nerf is huge, but they are still BiS and maybe the magicka user stop complaining about DPS (which is nonsense from my perspective, because if you are close up and personal, you must deal moar damage IMHO), this closes the gap between Magicka and Stamina for Endagame content.

Not very happy bout this, but it's ok, because it will enable more build variety.

So being in light armor with less mitigation should result in less damage than being in medium armor, with more natural mitigation ?

In my opinion, magicka should always deal more damage, provided they are wearing light armor.
Ranged attacks should gain a 10% damage bonus when used within melee range. Because a light armor user who gets close up, should deal more damage than a medium armor melee. But it doesn't.

You do realize that the top DPS for vmol hardmode is a Magplar atm right?

Nontheless, thje nerf was a good choice, I just wish they buffed magicka instead of nurfing stuff. Well maybe now weap crit pots will get cheaper again

Awh Alcast, don't feed the forums this they wont understand why and call for nerfs

Darkdex · September 2016

Dracane wrote: »

Darkdex wrote: »

They were OP AF (and i'm a Cruel flurry user, with stamblade and stamDK), The nerf is huge, but they are still BiS and maybe the magicka user stop complaining about DPS (which is nonsense from my perspective, because if you are close up and personal, you must deal moar damage IMHO), this closes the gap between Magicka and Stamina for Endagame content.

Not very happy bout this, but it's ok, because it will enable more build variety.

So being in light armor with less mitigation should result in less damage than being in medium armor, with more natural mitigation ?

In my opinion, magicka should always deal more damage, provided they are wearing light armor.
Ranged attacks should gain a 10% damage bonus when used within melee range. Because a light armor user who gets close up, should deal more damage than a medium armor melee. But it doesn't.

Btw, i'm talking from PvE perspective.

As a magicka user, you have more survavility even in light armor than a medium armor user, not because the mitigation itself, but because the versatility you have (You are at range, so you are safer from boss mechanics and you have a better/wider flied of wiew, also reliable Out-of-jail cards, like healing ward or harness magicka).

For example, As melee, you are very close to the boss, with all those AoE effects on it and it's harder to see some of the boss mechanics in several situations, and if you get poisoned/call lightn'ed or (the other overcharger AoE attack which i dont remember the name of) you are most likely be stacked with other melee DPS.

Moar risk ---> Moar reward.

OrphanHelgen · September 2016

Here is what I think:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-GB/discussion/292538/cant-we-buff-magicka-instead-of-a-stamina-nerf#latest

Vezuls · September 2016

Dracane wrote: »

Darkdex wrote: »

They were OP AF (and i'm a Cruel flurry user, with stamblade and stamDK), The nerf is huge, but they are still BiS and maybe the magicka user stop complaining about DPS (which is nonsense from my perspective, because if you are close up and personal, you must deal moar damage IMHO), this closes the gap between Magicka and Stamina for Endagame content.

Not very happy bout this, but it's ok, because it will enable more build variety.

So being in light armor with less mitigation should result in less damage than being in medium armor, with more natural mitigation ?

In my opinion, magicka should always deal more damage, provided they are wearing light armor.
Ranged attacks should gain a 10% damage bonus when used within melee range. Because a light armor user who gets close up, should deal more damage than a medium armor melee. But it doesn't.

Magic builds have shields and dps from range. More reaction time if boss turns around and cleaves (wheras melee is RIP), easier to play, etc... . If a big hit is coming and one's on a magblade, pop a 15k harness and chill.
On a stam build if big damage comes and you get knocked to a sliver, you gotta pull some evasive dodge roll maneuvers, pop a vigor, and pray the heals you're in are enough to prevent imminent doom.
Stam builds are at the mercy of the healer. Mag builds can lighten the load with Harness.

Melee should ALWAYS do more damage than range imo. I thought this was what ZoS was going for tbh, as Mag DK and Magplar are the highest damaging mag builds atm.

Edit: It's also so much easier to sustain mag in single target fights. Drain. Siphon. Orbs. Stam builds get a 25% stam back synergy every 15 seconds if they actually want to pop on cooldown. Dodgerolling on a stam build hurts a lot, because that's stam you coulda had for damage.

Rhazmuz · September 2016

Great change

Alucardo · September 2016

They're still really powerful, so good change.

DPShiro · September 2016

Alcast wrote: »

I just wish they buffed magicka instead of nurfing stuff.

This is exactly how I feel^