Hybrid Builds Are Supposedly Viable - (I'm not buying it)

Rykmaar · September 2016

Some_Guy wrote: »

Can they show us a viable hybrid build completing VMA (with a decent score), or perhaps VMOL (without obviously being carried)?
Hybrid build are viable in the sense that you don't need a "build" at all to complete 90% of this game's content (maybe more). And even in PvP, there is a sense of "hybrid" to some people's builds, but they typically lean towards one side or the other much more. But as soon as they mentioned PvE the discussion was no longer about hybrid viability, it was stamina vs magicka. Note that he did NOT say that Hodor or Beyond Infinity were using hybrid builds, he said they were using magicka and "like 2 stam builds". Not one single word of a hybrid build.
Hybrids are viable. They are NOT going to get you far in the competitive natures of this game.

I think that's the key here.

I totally understand where @ZOS_RichLambert was coming from, and Pelinal's is a step in the right direction, I just think that we need to be real with each other when we talk about hybrids in this game. Yes, you can make a hybrid build, but no, you won't be competitive in DPS. That's the kicker here. Yeah overworld is one thing, but parses are another.

It sounded to me that the question was deflected a bit with the whole shift into "well stamina isn't as popular as you think," etc, but I could have misinterpreted that.

I'd love to see someone in a hybrid build (not just a stamina build using one magicka ability) getting good parses. Problem is, we all know we won't.

Rykmaar · September 2016

Just as a quick update here, as I just thought of it, if they changed Pelinal's to also affect crit chance of your highest attribute, I think things would be on much firmer footing. Crit and crit damage is the current meta, so without having decent crit on the secondary resource pool, hybrid builds are at a handicap.

Thoughts?

The_Duke · September 2016

I don't see a hybrid build ever working for pve untill crit is universal between mag and stam as 1 multiplier for both.

Jar_Ek · September 2016

Well the elements that make up any damage are well known:
Magicka, Spell damage, Spell critical, CPs and passives that affect magic, or elemental damage / critical.
Stamina, Weapon damage, Weapon critical, CPs and passives that affect physical, poison, or disease damage / critical.

If a hybrid is to be viable then there needs to be some means to equalise the differences, Pels does this for weapon/spell damage (including the stamina/magicka component I think), but nothing currently does it for critical or CP - and with Pels you still lose a 5th set piece bonus compared to a pure build for relatively limited real benefit.

If there was a set that (for the sake of argument) changed all fire damage to poison (ie costs magicka but scales from weapon damage, stamina and appropriate poison CPs - and uses weapon crit) then you could have a form of DK hybrid for example. Maybe that style of hybrid set would be better?

CapuchinSeven · September 2016

Waffennacht wrote: »

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

milesrodneymcneely2_ESO wrote: »

You know, when I heard other players say "Do the devs ACTUALLY play the game?", I thought they were just being jerk-wads.

But with the reaction at 32:40, I suddenly get it.

The removal of soft caps was the WORST decision this game has ever undergone.

I agree, I think that's what bugs me the most about ESO. In EVERY MMO you hear "do the devs even play the game", and when you hear it here you think, meh same old forums. But it really does feel like they don't play the game! Or that they are TOTALLY out of touch with things like PVP balance and so on.

Waffennacht wrote: »

Heh, first of course you HAVE to respec for PvP vs PvE. I mean really now, im shocked that everyone doesn't know this.

Second. I feel bad for the 100s of players I've killed with my hybrid, talk about salt in the wounds

Actaul video of you killing a decent player in PVP with a hybrid build, hybrid works better in PVP than it does PVE but any decent magic player is going to know how to manage their stamina and any decent stamina player is going to out heal and damage you, please note a hybrid build does not mean you put caltrops on your bar.

You want videos? I have videos... (any excuse to show off lol, im vain I know!)

I consider my build a hybrid.

32.5k max magicka
21.5K max stam
H Ward and streak are my magicka costing moves (had Velacious slotted but no more)

Resist is somethin like 23k
Stam regen is 1800
Weapon damage is 3500 ish buffed

In PvP my ward gives me a 8.5k shield.

So if a tooltipped 21k Frag hits my shield, I take less than 2k dmg to my health.

That's a hybrid right?

...no not really, that's a stamina build where we've sacrificed stamina to stack some magic.

Maybe if you're wearing Pels? I dunno, that just seems like you're again, never really going to be good at either side of the coin but get away with it somewhat because stamina is stupidly strong in PVP.

Seems like you're using a stamina build that can steak a lot.

Cronopoly · September 2016

I tried Pelinals. Stupid move of the year. At least I didn't upgrade it to Yellow.

Faulgor · September 2016

Pelinal's is a nice idea, but the problem is that you still have to invest in magicka and stamina. Rich said that Wrobel is working on something to discourage putting all your attribute points into one attribute, and I hope that will help hybrid a bit as well.

Frankly, I think they should remove damage scaling with magicka/stamina. Or, even better, let damage scale with spell/weapon damage and healing (and maybe other defensive) abilities scale with magicka/stamina.

IxskullzxI · September 2016

Faulgor wrote: »

Pelinal's is a nice idea, but the problem is that you still have to invest in magicka and stamina. Rich said that Wrobel is working on something to discourage putting all your attribute points into one attribute, and I hope that will help hybrid a bit as well.

Frankly, I think they should remove damage scaling with magicka/stamina. Or, even better, let damage scale with spell/weapon damage and healing (and maybe other defensive) abilities scale with magicka/stamina.

You have a source for rich saying that? I'd like to take a look at it.

CasNation · September 2016

Jar_Ek wrote: »

Well the elements that make up any damage are well known:
Magicka, Spell damage, Spell critical, CPs and passives that affect magic, or elemental damage / critical.
Stamina, Weapon damage, Weapon critical, CPs and passives that affect physical, poison, or disease damage / critical.

If a hybrid is to be viable then there needs to be some means to equalise the differences, Pels does this for weapon/spell damage (including the stamina/magicka component I think), but nothing currently does it for critical or CP - and with Pels you still lose a 5th set piece bonus compared to a pure build for relatively limited real benefit.

If there was a set that (for the sake of argument) changed all fire damage to poison (ie costs magicka but scales from weapon damage, stamina and appropriate poison CPs - and uses weapon crit) then you could have a form of DK hybrid for example. Maybe that style of hybrid set would be better?

Just as a matter of discussion, DKs actually have an ability that provides both major spell and weapon crit. The last ardent flame one I think.

Also, Templars have native access to both crit buffs through vampires bane and biting jabs, both of which a true hybrid would use.

Now, this doesn't buff up the REST of your crit chance, but it does help even the playing field a bit. Just an interesting tidbit.

newtinmpls · September 2016

Faulgor wrote: »

Rich said that Wrobel is working on something to discourage putting all your attribute points into one attribute,

Easy, disconnect stats from damage.

Ankael07 · September 2016

Faulgor wrote: »

Pelinal's is a nice idea, but the problem is that you still have to invest in magicka and stamina. Rich said that Wrobel is working on something to discourage putting all your attribute points into one attribute

And whats that going to change at this point when we have sets like skulking draugr?

jhharvest · September 2016

newtinmpls wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Rich said that Wrobel is working on something to discourage putting all your attribute points into one attribute,

Easy, disconnect stats from damage.

Yes, sort of. The problem is that you can stack 6k weapon damage but only about 4k spell damage, so then magicka falls further behind stam. I'm all for disconnecting damage from max stat pools but it would have to be in conjunction with some other balance changes.

Asardes · September 2016

How do you stack 6K weapon damage? 4.5K is indeed possible with 5/7 medium all gold divines and Warrior mundus, gear bonuses and major + minor brutality.