Hybrid Builds Are Supposedly Viable - (I'm not buying it)

GrumpyDuckling · September 2016

According to Mr. Rich Lambert, who spoke at the Alliance War Roundtable at PAX (see video below), hybrid builds are viable without soft caps. Start watching the video at 32:38 to see how Mr. Lambert responds to a player's question concerning the viability of hybrids:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Que9KdffpcQ

While I agree that hybrid builds can be viable in PVP - specifically on tank builds - I am concerned about how the creative director of ESO appears to be shocked and/or confused about the comment that hybrid builds are sub-par within the current state of the game.

It's unfortunate because most of the community knows that if you build a hybrid character in ESO (that isn't a tank), then take that character into VMA or group dungeons, you are significantly hurting yourself and your team's effectiveness. In PVP you can hide hybrid deficiencies within a good small group, but once you try the more difficult PVE content that this game has to offer your hybrid shortcomings are very much exposed because your damage and healing are drastically reduced.

Unless Mr. Lambert expects us to fully respec our hybrid character every time we switch from PVP to PVE content, I can't buy into his shocked and/or confused look concerning hybrid viability in ESO. I respect the heck out of the man who helps to deliver us a game we love to play, but I don't understand his reaction and reasoning regarding this subject.

alephthiago · September 2016

His example of a hybrid build (using pelynal) is actually just a standard 2handed shuffler stamina build with some magical glitter.
Hybrid builds other than tankers are not viable because the resource pool is a key component of damage.

Essiaga · September 2016

I was shocked and/or confused by so many things said at PAX. This being one of them.

It seriously sounded like ZOS is going to clone Orsinum over and over, which is super easy content aside from VMA. All of which can be completed by a 7 year old with no CP in non-set gear. I say 7 because at that age you can read and type in chat for to find a group for WB. My 7 year old has played in Ors.

So Rich is right in saying hybrid builds are viable as this appears to be present and future of ESO. Hell, Craglorn is now one of these solo zones. Looking forward to Cyrodiil being a PVP free solo zone too. No need for variety.

Ankael07 · September 2016

I dont even want them to do Q/A's anymore I want them to actually play the game and show us their supposed solution to the balance or gameplay variety.

milesrodneymcneely2_ESO · September 2016

You know, when I heard other players say "Do the devs ACTUALLY play the game?", I thought they were just being jerk-wads.

But with the reaction at 32:40, I suddenly get it.

The removal of soft caps was the WORST decision this game has ever undergone.

CasNation · September 2016

That comment worried and shocked me as well. I know that rich plays the game. I even know that he is pretty good at the game. He knows enough about it to understand the context the question was being asked in, and as such his response made no sense whatsoever.

driosketch · September 2016

I may have misheard, but didn't sound like either the question or the answer explicitly mentioned dps by role. So, technically correct?

Look, sometimes I run an unarmed character in Cyrodiil, about as experimental as any build can get. I used the PA set and tried to run as a hybrid. While I had some success, I finally figured going full stamina was the better choice for my build. I'm sure there are effective hybrid dps builds out there, but that's really down to player skill and that most of the content doesn't require a fully min/maxed character.

newtinmpls · September 2016

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

According to Mr. Rich Lambert, who spoke at the Alliance War Roundtable at PAX (see video below), hybrid builds are viable without soft caps.

I don't understand how that could be said with a straight face.

However it's a very stark phrase.....

So ... overleveled in PvE, sure
carried by a good group, sure
grinding in a zerg, sure

But you'd get killed in non-outleveled content
you'd get voted out of non-vet dungeons

PvP? Land of min-max, BiS, play 10+ hours a day insane skill levels?

Unlikely

And as an edit..... show me the true hybrid build (60/40 split) that can pass the DPS wall of major bosses

.

alephthiago · September 2016

Maybe they try running some dungeons and Maelstron, but PVP? Ohhh boy, they dont.

CasNation · September 2016

driosketch wrote: »

I may have misheard, but didn't sound like either the question or the answer explicitly mentioned dps by role. So, technically correct?

Look, sometimes I run an unarmed character in Cyrodiil, about as experimental as any build can get. I used the PA set and tried to run as a hybrid. While I had some success, I finally figured going full stamina was the better choice for my build. I'm sure there are effective hybrid dps builds out there, but that's really down to player skill and that most of the content doesn't require a fully min/maxed character.

If I may be so bold, it doesn't matter if it is technically correct. Despite some naysayers, Rich plays the game, is good at the game, and has his ear to ground when it comes to how things work at high tiers of play. He is smart enough to know what was meant by the question, and the concerns that person was really voicing, and he choose not to answer that question. He answered the "technically they are viable in general" question instead. And that is worrisome.

Asardes · September 2016

Yes, they are indeed very viable:
- for wiping the group in PvE
- for getting AP of them in PvP

Waffennacht · September 2016

Heh, first of course you HAVE to respec for PvP vs PvE. I mean really now, im shocked that everyone doesn't know this.

Second. I feel bad for the 100s of players I've killed with my hybrid, talk about salt in the wounds

daroule1982 · September 2016

I agree with the video, however I do believe they should implement a secondary specialization tab into the game to be used outside of PvP. For people like me that like to go out and PVE, and then take a break from the grind to PvP, it wouldn't be so costly and time consuming to do such nonsense. What I really think would be cool if they did something like:

-PvP gear switch off automatically when entering battleground, and then Auto PvE and make player immune while in delves.

-PvE gear switch off automatically when exiting said battleground.

And, while I am brainstorming here, what would be even cooler,

, is to have these options and actual option. A tab in the option game play panel to have these On or Off.

nordsavage · September 2016

alephthiago wrote: »

Maybe they try running some dungeons and Maelstron, but PVP? Ohhh boy, they dont.

Word is they cannot beat their own content like vMaw or vMA. Apparently the way they design much of the content too be completed is usually not the best way to go about it too from what has been observed. This means they mostly have theory to work from. One more thing. A certain combat dev is known to get his ass handed to him in PvP and it looks that a lot of his decisions are a result of this.

wayfarerx · September 2016

nordsavage wrote: »

Word is they cannot beat their own content like vMaw or vMA.

Not entirely true:

https://twitter.com/SlashLurk/status/775738899478052864

Autolycus · September 2016

Waffennacht wrote: »

Heh, first of course you HAVE to respec for PvP vs PvE. I mean really now, im shocked that everyone doesn't know this.

Second. I feel bad for the 100s of players I've killed with my hybrid, talk about salt in the wounds

Pretty much, lol.

I've been known to go into Cyrodiil many a time on my magblade in full pve gear and get 100+ kills, usually between 10-20 deaths, with zero impen, all crit-based, and no cloaking either. To a certain degree, player skill can make up for lack of stats.

I say that, but when it comes down to it, CP allocations for pve and pvp are not identical. If one wishes to truly optimize for each, switching between pvp and pve builds almost demands switching CP too. Clearly it's not required, if I can do well on my pve carebear magblade, but we're talking about two different types of content here, so when developing builds and allocating CP, people should know that the ideal setup is going to be different for each. Whether or not said individual respecs is entirely up to said individual.

I've killed hundreds of players in my hybrid build too, but my hybrid build is also complete and utter crap in pve. I could do a lot of things to my hybrid pvp sorc to make him better in pve, but he will never come close to what my stam pve sorc can do. He can't, plain and simple. My hybrid setup will not work in vMA, and it will not work in trials. It makes the cut for WB dailies and vet dungeons, but only barely. Like I said, I can make him more viable for pve, but he will not make the cut for competitive pve content, even with those changes.

xellink · September 2016

In most other games that have respectable PVP such as GW1 and GW2 u separate PVP and PVE. You have to respec to be competitive.

People not willing to respec and poor game mechanics is why the meta is based on high DPS and spike damage. There is very little focus on flexibility, coordinated team play and support. I can only say that hybrid is viable in PVP, unfortunately not so in PVE.

Also, DPS walls are just stupid and do not promote diversity. It emphasises the point that it is very complex (most MMOs have failed to consistently produce results) to create AI that is smart enough or random enough to create patterns that cannot be simply overcomed by a DPS wall, for example, promoting kiting, mobility (retreating maneuver), snares, interrupts (poison arrow) and pressure. Such AI do occur once in a blue moon and when that happens, people will say 'wow this dungeon is fun.'

A few mechanics i have seen before in other games punishes non-deliberate DPS, for example damage-reflection
Boss skills
- attacks gain life stealing equal to the highest damage he takes while in this stance.
- transfers conditions from himself to foes he hits.
- moderate DPS wall (achievable by good hybrid players)

Other ideas in other games i have seen
- enemies with super high armor such that all damage dealt is 1... You have to increase the number of hits to take such enemies down
- Enemies that returns fixed damage 'per hit'. You have to decrease the number of hits and hit heavily
- Forced party split into two smaller groups to complete objectives

Some good mechanics that already exist in ESO:
- Teleporting random party member away to another realm (fungal grotto)
- Situational DPS walls (Too many, thats the problem)
- Taking control of player (Bogdan)
- Large map area with powerful AOEs, forcing players to split apart (ash titan). I love tanking this boss. Being apart from the other members from the team with the occasional healer death means you have to be able to heal yourself. As a stam tank, at a certain point i was forced to play hybrid with BOL until Vigor became available.
- Very High DOT (Vila Theran) - The easiest way for teams to get through the vet achievement this is to lower DPS and get everyone help out healing. I have done this with very low level players. Often just mixing up the build is enough.
- Hybridisation enablers (only Pelinal is useful. Undaunted is very lacklustre)

Problem with the game is the lack of deliberate DPS. You should hit deliberately with intended consequences, you have to change your pattern of play according to the situation.

Ways to move forward
1) Non-deliberate DPS should be punished.
2) Forcing players to change playstyle mid-battle encourages hybrid builds.
3) Decreased the number of DPS walls, its getting too repetitive.
4) Require wider range of skills and variety of boss responses. Better AI.
5) Lower hybridisation penalty (not every RPG uses a soft cap) - for example certain hybridisation feats in DnD. In ESO, Pelinal's is a good first-step although statwise the player is a non-hybrid, the bar and energy management is hybridised. Other options is to allow crossover stats. For example, "your melee attacks gain 1/2 magicka stat bonus."

Things to move away from
Soft caps: This forces everyone to play hybrid. Thats a terrible thing to build diversity.

I think ESO is heading in the right direction with Pelinal's and i hope the devs will redo the undaunted sets. I hope certain spells will buff physical skills and maybe it might just come with spellcrafting in the future. For example: Bull's strength in DnD terms.

Pandorii · September 2016

There are enough skill points in the game so that it's not necessary to respect skill points to be able to switch from PvP to PvE.

People saying that sound like elitists. C'mon...

Sure, you'll need to change your gear/build/skill/rotation. This is not technically called a 'respec' in the way we use the word in ESO. You may need to make some small tweak in your champion points, but that's probably it.

Yall sound like "if you're not spending 15k on CP and skill point respec, you're doing it wrong. L2P poor scrubs."

Autolycus · September 2016

Pandorii wrote: »

There are enough skill points in the game so that it's not necessary to respect skill points to be able to switch from PvP to PvE.

People saying that sound like elitists. C'mon...

Sure, you'll need to change your gear/build/skill/rotation. This is not technically called a 'respec' in the way we use the word in ESO. You may need to make some small tweak in your champion points, but that's probably it.

Yall sound like "if you're not spending 15k on CP and skill point respec, you're doing it wrong. L2P poor scrubs."

Is that really what everyone sounds like? I think we are reading two different threads. I know a lot of people you would call "elitists" and not one of them would tell you that you have to reallocate your CP to do different content.

That being said, I also know that not one of them would say the CP allocations for both should be identical. I am fully confident that every one of these "elitists" that I know would suggest having separate characters for each content, to be optimal. And they all recognize that not everyone cares about being optimal, either.

Clearly you are not only to blame, so don't take me too harshly, but I personally am very tired of people throwing around the term "elitist" just as often as "l2p" like it actually means something. The way it's used, you'd think that 99% of this community is elitist instead of the alleged top 1%.

Pandorii · September 2016

Waffennacht wrote: »

Heh, first of course you HAVE to respec for PvP vs PvE. I mean really now, im shocked that everyone doesn't know this.

xellink wrote: »

In most other games that have respectable PVP such as GW1 and GW2 u separate PVP and PVE. You have to respec to be competitive.

People not willing to respec and poor game mechanics is why the meta is based on high DPS and spike damage. There is very little focus on flexibility, coordinated team play and support. I can only say that hybrid is viable in PVP, unfortunately not so in PVE.

@Autolycus This is the context of my comment. If this is not elitist-sounding, what is it then? xD

Autolycus · September 2016

Pandorii wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Heh, first of course you HAVE to respec for PvP vs PvE. I mean really now, im shocked that everyone doesn't know this.

xellink wrote: »

In most other games that have respectable PVP such as GW1 and GW2 u separate PVP and PVE. You have to respec to be competitive.

People not willing to respec and poor game mechanics is why the meta is based on high DPS and spike damage. There is very little focus on flexibility, coordinated team play and support. I can only say that hybrid is viable in PVP, unfortunately not so in PVE.

@Autolycus This is the context of my comment. If this is not elitist-sounding, what is it then? xD

Yeah, I would say that it's fair, given the context you quoted. I want to re-state that I wasn't trying to be super harsh towards you specifically... I was merely trying to make a point about labeling and generalizing. The elitist label gets tossed around at so many people making mere suggestions (even those not being forceful and rude about their suggestions).

Maybe it's just a matter of perspective. Those comments don't strike me as elitist... We'd likely have to define "elitist" for that (and who really cares?). The first comment just sounds arrogant to me. It seems narrow-minded and assumes that every form of pve content demands a respec, when in fact, that kind of assumption really only holds true for vMA and veteran trials. The latter comment doesn't sound elitist to me at all, though, and is merely stating there is little room (if any) for building around flexibility, or making using of both magicka and stamina skills; basically hybrids. It's not untrue, though. I play a hybrid build in pvp that does exceptionally well on most nights, and it is nowhere near the level that is needed to do competitive pve content. I would have to re-gear and re-spec my hybrid before he'd be able to pull his weight.

When my members who predominantly pvp want to participate in competitive pve content, they know that their pvp setups aren't going to cut it. I'm not talking about doing some dungeons or dailies; No, I'm talking veteran trials and hardmodes. If you have points into extra crit resistance when you could have them in damage resistance, or points into healing done/received instead of mighty, precise strikes, etc., it can make a pretty big difference in your capabilities in that content. Having 2k+ recovery and low max stats is another example. This is obviously very over-simplified; I'm one to consider perspectives and take things on a case-by-case basis.

kaithuzar · September 2016

The one note I'll add is that there are "time trial achievements". These can not be completed when you have a group full of hybrid builds let alone a single hybrid build. The content is "doable" with a or more hybrids however, you will not receive "top times" or even enough "time to complete & receive the achievement for doing so".
Because the entire leader-board system is based off of "who completes the content the fastest" there will never be a hybrid build at the top due to the golden rule of "kill your opponent more quickly than the next guy"

Waffennacht · September 2016

My statements clearly come from a PvP perspective. If you go to PvP with a PvE build, you're not gonna do well against the better players.

PvE is mostly AoE, (bow and DW for stam, WoE and LL for mag sorc are examples) while PvP is mostly single target (dizzing swing, frag, curse, SA, etc...)

Now this may not be As true for non sorcs (ill admit readily im not nearly as experienced in other classes) but if you're CPs are all in thaumaturge and you slot 2H.... well you're gimped.

If you go into PvP rocking LL, WoE and pets well... you're gonna get rocked.

I guess if you're ok by getting rekted every once in a while sure Pop in with your PvE build. I was talking from a competitive level.

Edit: if you believe wanting to do the very best possible every time "elitist" then yes, I am "elitist"

Some_Guy · September 2016

Can they show us a viable hybrid build completing VMA (with a decent score), or perhaps VMOL (without obviously being carried)?
Hybrid build are viable in the sense that you don't need a "build" at all to complete 90% of this game's content (maybe more). And even in PvP, there is a sense of "hybrid" to some people's builds, but they typically lean towards one side or the other much more. But as soon as they mentioned PvE the discussion was no longer about hybrid viability, it was stamina vs magicka. Note that he did NOT say that Hodor or Beyond Infinity were using hybrid builds, he said they were using magicka and "like 2 stam builds". Not one single word of a hybrid build.
Hybrids are viable. They are NOT going to get you far in the competitive natures of this game.

Waffennacht · September 2016

I think everyone agrees hybrids are not PvE end game viable

Some_Guy · September 2016

Waffennacht wrote: »

I think everyone agrees hybrids are not PvE end game viable

Literally everyone. Including Rich Lambert.

Jar_Ek · September 2016

If the definition of a hybrid is a character that actively uses magicka and stamina skills, then hybrids are not just viable but quite common as most stamina builds use a few utility skills that cost magicka... and a few magicka builds use 1 stamina skill (trap beast?).

However to my and most players, a hybrid is actually defined by using a mix of magicka and stamina skills that are scaled off that resource (mostly damage, healing, and shields) rather than health scaled or utility skills. And having a split resource build doesn't work well in high end content compared to a dedicated pure build - the split of CP and attributes, and the loss of a 5th slot bonus (for Pels) is enough to make them at least a tier below if not further.

hrothbern · September 2016

I wonder what would happen with hybrid viability if the damage/heal formular of the abilities would be changed from:

for Magicka abilities 10.5*SD + 1.00*Magicka pool or for Stamina abilties 10.5*WD + 1.00*Stamina pool

to something like:

for Magicka abilities 10.5*SD + 0.90*Magicka pool + 0.25*Stamina pool
and for Stamina abilities 10.5*WD + 0.90*Stamina pool + 0.25*Magicka pool

EDIT
thinking it through
I changed the numbers a bit, because the old numbers would favor tri-stat food too strong above 2-stat food.
With the changed numbers, 2-stat food still would need to be buffed slightly.
It should anyway be so that the DPS/HPS of current stacked meta builds for raids should keep the same DPS,
and helping hybrids a little bit

CapuchinSeven · September 2016

milesrodneymcneely2_ESO wrote: »

You know, when I heard other players say "Do the devs ACTUALLY play the game?", I thought they were just being jerk-wads.

But with the reaction at 32:40, I suddenly get it.

The removal of soft caps was the WORST decision this game has ever undergone.

I agree, I think that's what bugs me the most about ESO. In EVERY MMO you hear "do the devs even play the game", and when you hear it here you think, meh same old forums. But it really does feel like they don't play the game! Or that they are TOTALLY out of touch with things like PVP balance and so on.

Waffennacht wrote: »

Heh, first of course you HAVE to respec for PvP vs PvE. I mean really now, im shocked that everyone doesn't know this.

Second. I feel bad for the 100s of players I've killed with my hybrid, talk about salt in the wounds

Actaul video of you killing a decent player in PVP with a hybrid build, hybrid works better in PVP than it does PVE but any decent magic player is going to know how to manage their stamina and any decent stamina player is going to out heal and damage you, please note a hybrid build does not mean you put caltrops on your bar.

caperon · September 2016

hrothbern wrote: »

I wonder what would happen with hybrid viability if the damage/heal formular of the abilities would be changed from:

for Magicka abilities 10.5*SD + 1.00*Magicka pool or for Stamina abilties 10.5*WD + 1.00*Stamina pool

to something like:

for Magicka abilities 10.5*SD + 0.90*Magicka pool + 0.25*Stamina pool
and for Stamina abilities 10.5*WD + 0.90*Stamina pool + 0.25*Magicka pool

EDIT
thinking it through
I changed the numbers a bit, because the old numbers would favor tri-stat food too strong above 2-stat food.
With the changed numbers, 2-stat food still would need to be buffed slightly.
It should anyway be so that the DPS/HPS of current stacked meta builds for raids should keep the same DPS,
and helping hybrids a little bit

Well, i think it would work better as:

for Magicka abilities 10.5*SD
and for Stamina abilities 10.5*WD

Then your resource pools would determine only how often you can use certain skills and your bonus choices on your gear would determine the damage you do. At least this would make pelinal viable.

Waffennacht · September 2016

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

milesrodneymcneely2_ESO wrote: »

You know, when I heard other players say "Do the devs ACTUALLY play the game?", I thought they were just being jerk-wads.

But with the reaction at 32:40, I suddenly get it.

The removal of soft caps was the WORST decision this game has ever undergone.

I agree, I think that's what bugs me the most about ESO. In EVERY MMO you hear "do the devs even play the game", and when you hear it here you think, meh same old forums. But it really does feel like they don't play the game! Or that they are TOTALLY out of touch with things like PVP balance and so on.

Waffennacht wrote: »

Heh, first of course you HAVE to respec for PvP vs PvE. I mean really now, im shocked that everyone doesn't know this.

Second. I feel bad for the 100s of players I've killed with my hybrid, talk about salt in the wounds

Actaul video of you killing a decent player in PVP with a hybrid build, hybrid works better in PVP than it does PVE but any decent magic player is going to know how to manage their stamina and any decent stamina player is going to out heal and damage you, please note a hybrid build does not mean you put caltrops on your bar.

You want videos? I have videos... (any excuse to show off lol, im vain I know!)

I consider my build a hybrid.

32.5k max magicka
21.5K max stam
H Ward and streak are my magicka costing moves (had Velacious slotted but no more)

Resist is somethin like 23k
Stam regen is 1800
Weapon damage is 3500 ish buffed

In PvP my ward gives me a 8.5k shield.

So if a tooltipped 21k Frag hits my shield, I take less than 2k dmg to my health.

That's a hybrid right?