Also, as some people have already brought up, HA sets on magicka builds are FAAAR more cancerous than BR could ever be on stam. Its not hard to figure out what sets are involved when 90% of templars are running that crap. Even sorcs are running heavy now. BR is hardly at fault here.

DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »

But if you think about the "main culture" of PVP it is High Stam and high damage. Due to the majority of players running that setup those left who love to play magic or have not converted to that Stam set up are donning heavy armor to not get sneezed on by one of those Stam builds and blown away. The problem isn't HA. The problem is so much damage from Stam and players having to either bend to that or build up to protect against it. Some players still roll 5 light in PVP. I applaud those that do. Because they are going against the grain. But HA ain't the problem. If a set paired with another set is performing above par compared to the rest what are you measuring them against? Bc I have rolled in BR and (insert a set) and I can still get dropped like many other of my guildies. Calling for the 200 wraith passive to be gone would hurt A LOT of non cookie cutter builds. People like to play different styles. Saying heavy is only for tanking is not accurate. Just because other MMOs do that doesn't mean ESO should. It's not just for tanking. And if someone says HA pulls massive dps I say post the proof. POST it. Because I tested my HA and LA sets and the numbers are higher on light. If you want more block damage can you not pair that with champ points and other traits and gear?

I agree. DPS needs a nerf across the board. Penetration needs to be reworked. HA is fine. BR is fine. Rework how certain sets interact with each other and things will be fine.

I can only repeat myself. The problem isn't one specific set.
Heavy armor in general is too potent atm when compared to light or even to Medium armor.

Imo the goal should be to nerf heavy a little for pvp and buff light to be on par with Medium (it would have to offer better bonuses bc essentially nothing can make up for stam sustain and rolldodge cost).

Medium has one thing you all seem to forget. 3% faster sprint speed per piece which is actually very important atleast for solo stam NB.
I'd say both medium and heavy is in a good place atm.

Erock25 wrote: »

I'm tired of this crap because I've always been a unique snowflake running my stam sorc in heavy armor

Totally agree. We had 2+ years of heavy armor not being relevant at all and people like me still using it without complaining. Now we have like 4 months of heavy being viable and you guys get all riled up. I did never use black rose except for testing purpose nor do I intend to (because I think there`s far smarter options available).

Medium armor still rocks, havent been beaten by anyone wearing heavy when testing some of the more dangerous medium setups (even without impen) and I played quite a bunch of so called top players. Light armor really gets the short end of the stick the past two patches, but thats not black rose or heavy armor related.

All I can see is totally biased exaggeration in favor of people`s individual agendas.

I really hope ZOS isn`t taking advice from you guys, since most of you seem unable to identify the roots of the current imbalance properly.

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

I really hope ZOS isn`t taking advice from you guys, since most of you seem unable to identify the roots of the current imbalance properly.

Then what are the roots of the current imbalance in your opinion?

I for one don't think it's a good thing when people can slap on 5 heavy, be extremely survivable and tough to burst while having to do relatively little, and still have decent sustain and damage. Just further drives the game towards a massive zergfest since burst is how you win outnumbered fights since... oh, 1.6.

Pre-DB you at least had to give up a lot of sustain or damage to be able to run 5 heavy (and the benefit was being tough to burst). That trade-off is almost not there anymore.

Xsorus wrote: »

Valencer wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

I really hope ZOS isn`t taking advice from you guys, since most of you seem unable to identify the roots of the current imbalance properly.

Then what are the roots of the current imbalance in your opinion?

I for one don't think it's a good thing when people can slap on 5 heavy, be extremely survivable and tough to burst while having to do relatively little, and still have decent sustain and damage. Just further drives the game towards a massive zergfest since burst is how you win outnumbered fights since... oh, 1.6.

Pre-DB you at least had to give up a lot of sustain or damage to be able to run 5 heavy (and the benefit was being tough to burst). That trade-off is almost not there anymore.

Ummm; Medium Armor stamina users weren't exactly easy to burst either....Between Dodge and Shuffle...

Also.....I think a lot of you aren't understanding why Heavy Armor users are harder to fight now.

Their resist isn't why they're hard to kill..you can damn near cut through most of a Heavy Armor Physical resist by simply running a two handed mace and sharpened....

Heavy Armor users are harder to kill cause of the increased health and healing received and things like Malubeth....and their ability to Sustain more now via Constitution Passive. That is why they're harder to kill.

You are right. It was harder to kill medium armor, shuffle, dodge roll spamming LoSing around trees and rocks. Still is harder to kill those than a heavy armor tank without a pocket healer. What is different now is that radiant goes through dodge roll and wrecks those people without a LoS object now, so now all those people run heavy armor because of that. Just slotting BR and tanking 5 people, you are still going to die though. The days of dodge rolling around and using take flight to take them out one by one in a 1vX scenario are mostly gone unless you happen to run into a group that has no self heals nor a templar spamming radiant on you.

FOTM now is stamina builds with most of their DPS coming from gear sets. Velidreth, widow maker, viper, etc. Bonus points if you are a stam sorc running hurricane (proccing implosion built in execute without even needing to slot an execute) and using dawnbreaker, streaking away and casting dark deal. Then you come on forums and complain that your cheese gear sets didn't kill someone in under a second with your velidreth, viper, dawnbreaker proc because they are a heavy armor templar holding block and healing themselves. How dare they!

Black Rose is fine. If you want to point fingers at heavy armor in general though, be my guest.

But FYI, in NO CP campaign, Heavy Armor seems pretty well balanced. So you could also just blame those 500-spmething CP for giving you that sustain and damage.

Valencer wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

I really hope ZOS isn`t taking advice from you guys, since most of you seem unable to identify the roots of the current imbalance properly.

Then what are the roots of the current imbalance in your opinion?

I for one don't think it's a good thing when people can slap on 5 heavy, be extremely survivable and tough to burst while having to do relatively little, and still have decent sustain and damage. Just further drives the game towards a massive zergfest since burst is how you win outnumbered fights since... oh, 1.6.

Pre-DB you at least had to give up a lot of sustain or damage to be able to run 5 heavy (and the benefit was being tough to burst). That trade-off is almost not there anymore.

Well, ignoring the fact that all our efforts is just fighting symptoms caused by lack of "dynamic" softcaps, @Xsorus is pretty close to what I think is true. Still, if I would go into detail I would sit here by tomorrow writing, so I`ll try to sum up the most important points to consider (in my opinion, of course)

I can be sturdy with incredible damage in the current state of the game with medium armor, no shuffle, no impen, no well fitted dodge-roll build just by stacking healing, cost reduction and some damage reduction. My average solo pvp hps is around 3,5k (medium armor) or 4-5k (heavy armor) consistently, no matte rif the fight last a minute or an hour. And I`m not even a templar or dk (major mending).

HP has become a very valuable stat during the past two patches in my opinion. Stack HP (25%-50% more than you are used to), damage reduction, cost reduction and hps and you will be a winner this patch in pvp, no matter the armor type (except light, which is another issue). The HP gives your hps enough room to tap its full potential.

None of that is related to any special set or armor type. The trade-off within the armor types is still there, it`s just that heavy now is, similar to what medium armor enjoyed since ages (shuffle, cp & trait powered dodge roll), able to compensate better. Means, we don`t have a clear winner anymore when comparing those two options.

If we take the lack of softcaps (please dont come up with the battle spirit bs, it`s not even close emulate the softcaps that were in place) as a given, then I`d say the easy access to absurd amounts of healing is the main problem, multiplied by the insane regeneration (active & passive) capabilities across all classes and armor types.

Xsorus wrote: »

Valencer wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

I really hope ZOS isn`t taking advice from you guys, since most of you seem unable to identify the roots of the current imbalance properly.

Then what are the roots of the current imbalance in your opinion?

I for one don't think it's a good thing when people can slap on 5 heavy, be extremely survivable and tough to burst while having to do relatively little, and still have decent sustain and damage. Just further drives the game towards a massive zergfest since burst is how you win outnumbered fights since... oh, 1.6.

Pre-DB you at least had to give up a lot of sustain or damage to be able to run 5 heavy (and the benefit was being tough to burst). That trade-off is almost not there anymore.

Ummm; Medium Armor stamina users weren't exactly easy to burst either....Between Dodge and Shuffle...

Also.....I think a lot of you aren't understanding why Heavy Armor users are harder to fight now.

Their resist isn't why they're hard to kill..you can damn near cut through most of a Heavy Armor Physical resist by simply running a two handed mace and sharpened....

Heavy Armor users are harder to kill cause of the increased health and healing received and things like Malubeth....and their ability to Sustain more now via Constitution Passive. That is why they're harder to kill.

Yeah, Im aware there's more to it than just the resistances. The health and healing taken makes a big difference too. Constitution gives people some form of sustain that doesnt get halted by block... that's a big deal too which allows heavy armour users to block for a while to absorb burst without instantly being out of stamina.

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Valencer wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

I really hope ZOS isn`t taking advice from you guys, since most of you seem unable to identify the roots of the current imbalance properly.

Then what are the roots of the current imbalance in your opinion?

I for one don't think it's a good thing when people can slap on 5 heavy, be extremely survivable and tough to burst while having to do relatively little, and still have decent sustain and damage. Just further drives the game towards a massive zergfest since burst is how you win outnumbered fights since... oh, 1.6.

Pre-DB you at least had to give up a lot of sustain or damage to be able to run 5 heavy (and the benefit was being tough to burst). That trade-off is almost not there anymore.

Well, ignoring the fact that all our efforts is just fighting symptoms caused by lack of "dynamic" softcaps, @Xsorus is pretty close to what I think is true. Still, if I would go into detail I would sit here by tomorrow writing, so I`ll try to sum up the most important points to consider (in my opinion, of course)

I can be sturdy with incredible damage in the current state of the game with medium armor, no shuffle, no impen, no well fitted dodge-roll build just by stacking healing, cost reduction and some damage reduction. My average solo pvp hps is around 3,5k (medium armor) or 4-5k (heavy armor) consistently, no matte rif the fight last a minute or an hour. And I`m not even a templar or dk (major mending).

HP has become a very valuable stat during the past two patches in my opinion. Stack HP (25%-50% more than you are used to), damage reduction, cost reduction and hps and you will be a winner this patch in pvp, no matter the armor type (except light, which is another issue). The HP gives your hps enough room to tap its full potential.

None of that is related to any special set or armor type. The trade-off within the armor types is still there, it`s just that heavy now is, similar to what medium armor enjoyed since ages (shuffle, cp & trait powered dodge roll), able to compensate better. Means, we don`t have a clear winner anymore when comparing those two options.

If we take the lack of softcaps (please dont come up with the battle spirit bs, it`s not even close emulate the softcaps that were in place) as a given, then I`d say the easy access to absurd amounts of healing is the main problem, multiplied by the insane regeneration (active & passive) capabilities across all classes and armor types.

Fair enough. Cant say I disagree with that.

Tried out 5 heavy for myself today and that combined with vitality pots gave me so much healing it was really tough to drop below even 80% health in a 1v1 (on stam DK with major mending and the draconic power passive for +12% healing taken). But I guess the only real difference between 5 heavy and 5 med in that department would be +8% healing received.

5 heavy feels incredibly dull to play as and against, in my opinion. But I guess the meta is what it is and I better suck it up.

Minno wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Valencer wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

I really hope ZOS isn`t taking advice from you guys, since most of you seem unable to identify the roots of the current imbalance properly.

Then what are the roots of the current imbalance in your opinion?

I for one don't think it's a good thing when people can slap on 5 heavy, be extremely survivable and tough to burst while having to do relatively little, and still have decent sustain and damage. Just further drives the game towards a massive zergfest since burst is how you win outnumbered fights since... oh, 1.6.

Pre-DB you at least had to give up a lot of sustain or damage to be able to run 5 heavy (and the benefit was being tough to burst). That trade-off is almost not there anymore.

Ummm; Medium Armor stamina users weren't exactly easy to burst either....Between Dodge and Shuffle...

Also.....I think a lot of you aren't understanding why Heavy Armor users are harder to fight now.

Their resist isn't why they're hard to kill..you can damn near cut through most of a Heavy Armor Physical resist by simply running a two handed mace and sharpened....

Heavy Armor users are harder to kill cause of the increased health and healing received and things like Malubeth....and their ability to Sustain more now via Constitution Passive. That is why they're harder to kill.

True regarding the health and healing.

Mace takes away 5280 in legendary?
Sharpened is 5280
Major fracture is 5280.
34+ CP = roughly 2k

If the Ha user is 30k (not hard to obtain btw.) Then youll only bring them to 12160.

This is assuming the enemy isn't using a shield or blocking. Which then means your attacks are being mitigated by 30k armor on top their dmg mitigation.

HA+ shield+healing is what makes it only viable for a Magicka user .

If you run Black Rose, you probably won't have anywhere close to 30k armor. My sorcerer is at 21.7k with 6 heavy 1 medium.

I've died wearing it, therefor it's not OP.

Buff pls.

manny254 wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

glavius wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Valencer wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

I really hope ZOS isn`t taking advice from you guys, since most of you seem unable to identify the roots of the current imbalance properly.

Then what are the roots of the current imbalance in your opinion?

I for one don't think it's a good thing when people can slap on 5 heavy, be extremely survivable and tough to burst while having to do relatively little, and still have decent sustain and damage. Just further drives the game towards a massive zergfest since burst is how you win outnumbered fights since... oh, 1.6.

Pre-DB you at least had to give up a lot of sustain or damage to be able to run 5 heavy (and the benefit was being tough to burst). That trade-off is almost not there anymore.

Ummm; Medium Armor stamina users weren't exactly easy to burst either....Between Dodge and Shuffle...

Also.....I think a lot of you aren't understanding why Heavy Armor users are harder to fight now.

Their resist isn't why they're hard to kill..you can damn near cut through most of a Heavy Armor Physical resist by simply running a two handed mace and sharpened....

Heavy Armor users are harder to kill cause of the increased health and healing received and things like Malubeth....and their ability to Sustain more now via Constitution Passive. That is why they're harder to kill.

True regarding the health and healing.

Mace takes away 5280 in legendary?
Sharpened is 5280
Major fracture is 5280.
34+ CP = roughly 2k

If the Ha user is 30k (not hard to obtain btw.) Then youll only bring them to 12160.

This is assuming the enemy isn't using a shield or blocking. Which then means your attacks are being mitigated by 30k armor on top their dmg mitigation.

HA+ shield+healing is what makes it only viable for a Magicka user .

If you run Black Rose, you probably won't have anywhere close to 30k armor. My sorcerer is at 21.7k with 6 heavy 1 medium.

BR is op, this video is pretty informative about why https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZoLPbPYBz0

It is funny to me that strongest aspect of the set is overlooked when people talk about it.

It gives you good sustain for your secondary resources. This means that stam sorc and DK can convert it to stamina or use it for utility. Stam templar can essentially always shrug off your debuffs. Stam NB lacks a direct reason to use a magicka dump, and that is why it is not as viable for NB open world.

This is exactly one of the main problems with the heavy sustain now, it gives a lot back to BOTH, it really should only give back to your highest stat.

Take away the magicka and all these 0 sustain heavy armour builds like stam sorc will have to find some sustain somewhere.

Remember when if you was a stam nb you had to use mag/stam drinks in order to be able to cloak/fear when you needed to.

Now they can just throw on heavy armour and go food for more dmg, heals, survivability and you very strong stam/mag regen.

I dont quite understand the need to tone down a set that is available to everyone to use.

But by all means enlighten me.

ManDraKE wrote: »

manny254 wrote: »

It gives you good sustain for your secondary resources. This means that stam sorc and DK can convert it to stamina or use it for utility. Stam templar can essentially always shrug off your debuffs. Stam NB lacks a direct reason to use a magicka dump, and that is why it is not as viable for NB open world.

uh? stamblade is the most magika-dependent stamclass of the game (for pvp), that is why most of stamblades are forced to run drinks instead of food in open world.

*Used* to be forced.