ZOS please add an option to refund crown store items TO CROWN STORE CROWNS

idk · August 2016

Cryptical wrote: »

Zeni already got our dollars, and gave us their personal scrip.

It's the same mechanic as me handing a $1000 to you and getting 10,000 pieces of paper you ran through your home printer that says "1 token". Tokens non refundable for $.

You already have my $money, it's never coming back to me. I've already crossed one threshold of non-refundability by that initial transaction. Allowing me to return your product X due to dissatisfaction and get my tokens back so I can put them toward something I like better is attention to customer satisfaction. If I am stuck with your product X - that I don't like - then I am less inclined to hand you more of my $money.

Take the Breton hero costume for example. People bought it based on preview, and found themselves dissatisfied after they got a closer look than preview would allow. If zeni allowed a return of that costume, refund for crowns, then ZERO actual $money leaves their hands. Those people would take their refunded crowns and spend them on something else, transforming them from upset customers stuck with a disliked costume into satisfied customers with other-product-B.

Returns / refunds / exchanges of some sort in the crown store is a customer satisfaction tactic.

But it's that initial transaction of $money for crowns that it looks like most of the naysayers have forgotten. Their arguments are based on a presumption that zeni loses $money if they allow returns... That presumption is wrong.

The simple answe is NO. The more complex answer is No WAY.

Zos will not setup a situation where once someone finds a mount they like better the player can just return the mount, get crowns back smso they can buy a new mount. It completely undermines the forensic store and eliminates much if the drive to create new items.

Preview the costume or mount before your purchase it. It works really well, great design with that. If one fails to use the tools available to ensure they like the appearance or makes an impulse buy, tough luck, as it should be.

Divinius · August 2016

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Cryptical wrote: »

Zeni already got our dollars, and gave us their personal scrip.

It's the same mechanic as me handing a $1000 to you and getting 10,000 pieces of paper you ran through your home printer that says "1 token". Tokens non refundable for $.

You already have my $money, it's never coming back to me. I've already crossed one threshold of non-refundability by that initial transaction. Allowing me to return your product X due to dissatisfaction and get my tokens back so I can put them toward something I like better is attention to customer satisfaction. If I am stuck with your product X - that I don't like - then I am less inclined to hand you more of my $money.

Take the Breton hero costume for example. People bought it based on preview, and found themselves dissatisfied after they got a closer look than preview would allow. If zeni allowed a return of that costume, refund for crowns, then ZERO actual $money leaves their hands. Those people would take their refunded crowns and spend them on something else, transforming them from upset customers stuck with a disliked costume into satisfied customers with other-product-B.

Returns / refunds / exchanges of some sort in the crown store is a customer satisfaction tactic.

But it's that initial transaction of $money for crowns that it looks like most of the naysayers have forgotten. Their arguments are based on a presumption that zeni loses $money if they allow returns... That presumption is wrong.

The simple answe is NO. The more complex answer is No WAY.

Zos will not setup a situation where once someone finds a mount they like better the player can just return the mount, get crowns back smso they can buy a new mount. It completely undermines the forensic store and eliminates much if the drive to create new items.

Preview the costume or mount before your purchase it. It works really well, great design with that. If one fails to use the tools available to ensure they like the appearance or makes an impulse buy, tough luck, as it should be.

Preview does NOT work well. I already cited two examples of this in my previous post.

Also, while the OP seems to be making the (unreasonable) request that all items be refundable indefinitely, the majority of the (much more reasonable) people in this thread are suggesting that a very time-limited period of return on specific cosmetic items would actually help ZOS by significantly increasing customer satisfaction and trust.

SolarCat02 · August 2016

I think a 60 minute return window for cosmetics (costumes, hats, hair, etc), pets, and mounts would be wonderful. Maybe personalities, too.

It would let people try out poses, movement, and different lighting to ensure they like it. You could try out costumes with hats or helmet hidden, and could even play with dyes. Pets you could see actual sizes and the different fidgets, and mounts you could hear the sounds and see what it looks like when riding.

nimander99 · August 2016

Its physically impossible to refund digital pixels my friend

UrQuan · August 2016

nimander99 wrote: »

Its physically impossible to refund digital pixels my friend

I packed all of the pixels I got into a box and mailed them back to ZOS with a note requesting a refund. Now we play the waiting game.

Cryptical · August 2016

UrQuan wrote: »

Cryptical wrote: »

But it's that initial transaction of $money for crowns that it looks like most of the naysayers have forgotten. Their arguments are based on a presumption that zeni loses $money if they allow returns... That presumption is wrong.

No, it absolutely isn't.

Currently:
You pay X amount of money to buy crowns.

ZOS has your money.

You spend those crowns on crown store items.

You decide the items you bought aren't as cool as you first thought, but there's nothing to be done about it.

You see a new item in the crown store that you really want.

You pay another X amount of money to buy more crowns.

You spend those crowns on the new item in the crown store that you want.

ZOS now has 2X worth of real money from you.

Cycle starts again.

If there was an option to allow returns (without severe limitations):
You pay X amount of money to buy crowns.

ZOS has your money.

You spend those crowns on crown store items.

You decide the items you bought aren't as cool as you first thought, so you return it.

You get your crowns back.

You see a new item in the crown store that you really want.

You don't have to pay any more money to buy more crowns because you have the crowns you already bought back.

You spend the same crowns again to get the new item in the crown store that you want.

ZOS now has X worth of real money from you.

Cycle starts again and you might never have to pay any more money to ZOS for more crowns.

See the difference? With returns ZOS loses tons of money.

Actually, I have chosen NOT to purchase crowns even though I really wanted something, purely because of my dissatisfaction with zeni's monetization of everything they can think of. Style parlor, for one. Name change for another. We on console NEVER thought that our character names would even be visible to others, and zeni wants HOW MUCH to let us change the names due to them making those names newly visible?!?!

It is a measured fact that people hold on to their negative feelings toward a company a lot longer and with more strength than positive feelings. Companies create methods of getting feedback for the purpose of receiving complaints, because the absolute last thing they want is for an angry customer to simply go away silently. If that happens, then the customer is lost forever. If there is a complaint, then the company has a chance to keep the person.

After seeing the monetization strategy being implemented, I stopped buying crowns, no matter what. I decided I would wait until at least an amount of time had passed that equaled what I would have spent through subscription, and then reevaluate. That's another 2 or 3 months.

So your cycle is inapplicable. It is a forced scenario that does not match reality. It fails to take into account how people feel about the products they purchased. There is more to how people's emotions factor into purchasing decisions than merely desire, and that's where your understanding failed you.

Taleof2Cities · August 2016

There are previews of mounts in the Crown Store before clicking the purchase confirm. It's as simple as that.

Those on PC have even less of an excuse since most mounts are available in PTS.

anitajoneb17_ESO · August 2016

Cryptical wrote: »

But it's that initial transaction of $money for crowns that it looks like most of the naysayers have forgotten. Their arguments are based on a presumption that zeni loses $money if they allow returns... That presumption is wrong.

That presumption is absolutely correct.

Say you want the guar mount and the lion mount, each are 1000 crowns (numbers are wrong but it's for the sake of the demonstration).

If there's no refund you have to spend 2000 crowns to have both mounts.
If there's a refund you'll simply get the guar, use it, return it before it expires, then exchange it for the lion, use it, exhange it for the guar, and so on. You'll have spent 1000 crowns to use both mounts as yo please.
Comparison between method 1 and method 2 shows a 1000 crowns net loss for ZOS.

jcaceresw · August 2016

What if instead of crown returns you have the option to have a certain crown store item in a limited trial schema. Most software applications have a license trial where you can test out the whole program for a certain amount of time. After it, you will be told to buy the full version each time you try to use it.

So, what I propose is for ZOS to allow you to have a certain costume, hat, pet for a minimum crown trial price, lets say 100 crowns and it will be available for you up to 7 days. After that time, you will have such crown store item greyed out / removed from your collection.

If you really liked it then go buy it again for the crowns difference between the real price and what you paid in advance (so if something costs 1000 crowns you will end up paying the remaining 900 crowns). ZOS obviously must register in their databases you are attempting to buy the same crown store item again and will offer you the discounted price.

Its a win-win situation. ZOS will always get money from you and you dont end paying the whole price for something you did not like after some use.

EDIT: I am aware of previews but even so I may end up not liking my purchase after all.

UrQuan · August 2016

Cryptical wrote: »

So your cycle is inapplicable. It is a forced scenario that does not match reality.

Absolute baloney. It's inapplicable to you and to a small segment of the player base. To the average person it's exactly correct. It's only when people are very upset that it breaks down (and those people will often be lost forever as customers in any case, regardless of whether they can get refunds - it generally takes a lot more than a refund to retain a customer who is particularly upset). People who are generally satisfied or only somewhat dissatisfied follow the cycle I laid out. If the vast majority of your customer base doesn't fall into the "satisfied or only somewhat dissatisfied" categories then your business is going to fail regardless.

Bottom line: from a business standpoint ZOS would lose a ton of money if they allowed refunds on crown store items without putting significant controls on refund eligibility. Trying to claim otherwise is absolutely ridiculous.

Cryptical · August 2016

UrQuan wrote: »

Cryptical wrote: »

So your cycle is inapplicable. It is a forced scenario that does not match reality.

Absolute baloney. It's inapplicable to you and to a small segment of the player base. To the average person it's exactly correct. It's only when people are very upset that it breaks down (and those people will often be lost forever as customers in any case, regardless of whether they can get refunds - it generally takes a lot more than a refund to retain a customer who is particularly upset). People who are generally satisfied or only somewhat dissatisfied follow the cycle I laid out. If the vast majority of your customer base doesn't fall into the "satisfied or only somewhat dissatisfied" categories then your business is going to fail regardless.

Bottom line: from a business standpoint ZOS would lose a ton of money if they allowed refunds on crown store items without putting significant controls on refund eligibility. Trying to claim otherwise is absolutely ridiculous.

Strange place to put a benchmark - they've /lost/ money because I didn't buy more crowns? You act almost as if that money is theirs already, and it is my fault they /lost/ it by not buying crowns.

Does McDonald's /lose/ money if you decide to buy more fruits and vegetables? Was that actually McDonald's money and they /lost/ it when you are healthy?

How about music artists, do they /lose/ money when you listen to the radio instead of buying their song?

You have a bass-ackwards view of whose money it is when it is in my hand. Mine. The choice to purchase is mine alone, and it doesn't become theirs until I hand it to them. They cannot /lose/ money that never reached their hand. What they can lose is *future* sales, and that is a measure of satisfaction/dissatisfaction.

And you can only make empty claims as to how many people curtail future spending based on their feelings on previous experiences. You have no way of knowing the size of the segment that stopped or slowed down buying crowns, those who ended their subscription.

UrQuan · August 2016

Cryptical wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Cryptical wrote: »

So your cycle is inapplicable. It is a forced scenario that does not match reality.

Absolute baloney. It's inapplicable to you and to a small segment of the player base. To the average person it's exactly correct. It's only when people are very upset that it breaks down (and those people will often be lost forever as customers in any case, regardless of whether they can get refunds - it generally takes a lot more than a refund to retain a customer who is particularly upset). People who are generally satisfied or only somewhat dissatisfied follow the cycle I laid out. If the vast majority of your customer base doesn't fall into the "satisfied or only somewhat dissatisfied" categories then your business is going to fail regardless.

Bottom line: from a business standpoint ZOS would lose a ton of money if they allowed refunds on crown store items without putting significant controls on refund eligibility. Trying to claim otherwise is absolutely ridiculous.

Strange place to put a benchmark - they've /lost/ money because I didn't buy more crowns? You act almost as if that money is theirs already, and it is my fault they /lost/ it by not buying crowns.

Does McDonald's /lose/ money if you decide to buy more fruits and vegetables? Was that actually McDonald's money and they /lost/ it when you are healthy?

How about music artists, do they /lose/ money when you listen to the radio instead of buying their song?

You have a bass-ackwards view of whose money it is when it is in my hand. Mine. The choice to purchase is mine alone, and it doesn't become theirs until I hand it to them. They cannot /lose/ money that never reached their hand. What they can lose is *future* sales, and that is a measure of satisfaction/dissatisfaction.

And you can only make empty claims as to how many people curtail future spending based on their feelings on previous experiences. You have no way of knowing the size of the segment that stopped or slowed down buying crowns, those who ended their subscription.

*sigh* you clearly don't have even a basic understanding of how business works. Everything is budgeted based on projected earnings (other things factor into it as well, like capital costs etc, but projected earnings are the most important). If your actual earnings are significantly lower than the earnings targets you budgeted for, you lose money. The fact that I had to explain that to you shows that you aren't qualified to even be involved in this discussion.

anitajoneb17_ESO · August 2016

Cryptical wrote: »

How about music artists, do they /lose/ money when you listen to the radio instead of buying their song?

You have a bass-ackwards view of whose money it is when it is in my hand. Mine. The choice to purchase is mine alone, and it doesn't become theirs until I hand it to them. They cannot /lose/ money that never reached their hand. What they can lose is *future* sales, and that is a measure of satisfaction/dissatisfaction.

Nope. When you listen to the radio artists make money because the radio pays.
But if you copy mp3 from a friend, the artist looses, literally looses the money that you would have spent buying the music, if you had not copied it from a friend. That IS a loss of money even if you haven't given them money yet, because you would have given them that money otherwise.
And no, it is not necessarily a measure of satisfaction or dissatisfaction. It's just cheaper. I'm pretty sure you've copied mp3 from a friend of music artists that you love. We all have.

Cryptical · August 2016

UrQuan wrote: »

Cryptical wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Cryptical wrote: »

So your cycle is inapplicable. It is a forced scenario that does not match reality.

Absolute baloney. It's inapplicable to you and to a small segment of the player base. To the average person it's exactly correct. It's only when people are very upset that it breaks down (and those people will often be lost forever as customers in any case, regardless of whether they can get refunds - it generally takes a lot more than a refund to retain a customer who is particularly upset). People who are generally satisfied or only somewhat dissatisfied follow the cycle I laid out. If the vast majority of your customer base doesn't fall into the "satisfied or only somewhat dissatisfied" categories then your business is going to fail regardless.

Bottom line: from a business standpoint ZOS would lose a ton of money if they allowed refunds on crown store items without putting significant controls on refund eligibility. Trying to claim otherwise is absolutely ridiculous.

Strange place to put a benchmark - they've /lost/ money because I didn't buy more crowns? You act almost as if that money is theirs already, and it is my fault they /lost/ it by not buying crowns.

Does McDonald's /lose/ money if you decide to buy more fruits and vegetables? Was that actually McDonald's money and they /lost/ it when you are healthy?

How about music artists, do they /lose/ money when you listen to the radio instead of buying their song?

You have a bass-ackwards view of whose money it is when it is in my hand. Mine. The choice to purchase is mine alone, and it doesn't become theirs until I hand it to them. They cannot /lose/ money that never reached their hand. What they can lose is *future* sales, and that is a measure of satisfaction/dissatisfaction.

And you can only make empty claims as to how many people curtail future spending based on their feelings on previous experiences. You have no way of knowing the size of the segment that stopped or slowed down buying crowns, those who ended their subscription.

*sigh* you clearly don't have even a basic understanding of how business works. Everything is budgeted based on projected earnings (other things factor into it as well, like capital costs etc, but projected earnings are the most important). If your actual earnings are significantly lower than the earnings targets you budgeted for, you lose money. The fact that I had to explain that to you shows that you aren't qualified to even be involved in this discussion.

Actually, I am a business owner.

If you are basing the solvency of your business on whether you can achieve projections, then you are wagering your business on guesswork and opinion. It may be 'educated' guesswork and it may be a rational opinion informed by facts, but that doesn't change the fact that it is guesswork and opinion.

Sometime in the 80's a 'business insight' started going widespread. "Pay yourself first". It sounded nice, like you should be rewarded for your hard work, so you pay yourself what you (emotionally think) you are worth and then if the budget comes up short then... Cuts must be made. Upgrades deferred. Pension payments unaffordable. Plenty of examples of this lie across the American economy right now. One such would be Hostess, where the 'important' people paid themselves first and then cut everywhere they could in order to 'meet projections'. Equipment went unreplaced for a decade. The core bakery capabilities were hollowed out. Eventually, they paid themselves first and nobody else at all, collapsing the company that had as much general recognition as just about anything else in America.

Your priorities in business are as long term healthy as bathing in bull crap.

Doesn't matter how old you are, your grandfather would see the wisdom in the saying "do not count your chickens before they are hatched". Thus, do not spend next quarter's profits before they arrive. You are ignoring that wisdom and instead are following the Chicago school of economics ideology that has led to "pay yourself first".

Toss your jargon elsewhere. There's another saying... "If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull ***". You do not dazzle me, nor am I baffled by your words here in this thread.

I say again - zeni wants income. Happy people spend. Angry people duct tape their wallet closed. It is exactly that simple. Zero $ leave zeni's account by allowing certain categories of their store be open for refunds, but making people happy cultivates open wallets.

anitajoneb17_ESO · August 2016

Cryptical wrote: »

Doesn't matter how old you are, your grandfather would see the wisdom in the saying "do not count your chickens before they are hatched". Thus, do not spend next quarter's profits before they arrive.

As wise as it may sound, most businesses nowadays (industrial era) require money to be spent first (generally in R&D and machinery) and then be covered by later incomes. For instance, new medicine would never be discovered, produced and sold if there weren't decades of research and testing in costly laboratories prior to any income. That's called investment. Money is spent in order to produce more money. That money is called capital and it's the very core mechanic of our economies - which is actually why it's called CAPITALism.

Even pre-industrial-era "grandfathers" knew you need to buy land, seeds and fertilizers before selling crop, or grow and feed poultry before being able to sell eggs. Business 101.

OutLaw_Nynx · August 2016

I personally would like to see what the animation for mounts are before I buy them. For example, I was excited about the bear mount only to realize how dizzy it made me. I wouldn't of bought it otherwise

anitajoneb17_ESO · August 2016

OutLaw_Nynx wrote: »

I personally would like to see what the animation for mounts are before I buy them. For example, I was excited about the bear mount only to realize how dizzy it made me. I wouldn't of bought it otherwise

PTS is your friend. I tried the bear there and realized the motion issues with it.
I realize though that not all crown store stuff goes to PTS first.

redspecter23 · August 2016

If they ever added this, it would be a very short time period after purchase. If you aren't happy with your mount 5 minutes after buying it, sure, I can see requesting a crown refund. If you don't like it 8 months later after you've bought a better one? I just can't see that ever happening.

DragonSamurai360 · August 2016

I think yes that there should be a refund option with conditions to ensure this new possible system isn't abused. For example consumables will only be refundable on one of two conditions, one a game bug or possible server issue caused the consumables not to work, or the pack could be refunded if the pack hasn't been used yet, this should only be done 3 times per year like the second idea I have unless ZOS determines otherwise. (For example this particular situation on consumables could be used in a situation on let's say someone buys an experience scroll pack, but instead wants to buy the crown food pack instead they could request a refund and buy the other pack on the condition that the scroll's have not been used yet, essentially meaning an unopened package. Or in the case of a bug, let's hypothetically say and I doubt this will happen ,but a botched maintenance or patch causes consumables to no longer work correctly, if the player notices this within a required amount of time determined by ZOS then he or she can get a refund.) On to more permanent things such as mounts, pets, costumes and account upgrades such as bank space. (A situation like this a refund could be requested within lets say a 24 hour period where the user can only receive a maximum 3 refunds per year or more can be requested, but that would need to depend on the situation and or circumstances with the request with ZOS and at their discretion.) I think this is a totally reasonable system in an age of digital distribution where people should not be returning things left and right knowing the license agreements they agreed to which almost all usually say something along the lines of "No Refunds Allowed Unless Required By Law" and 3 times a year should be more than plenty, unless it's like food which we all know is impossible unless we are in Star Trek or something. The Digital PC platform Steam is probably an exception in that they do allow refunds, as long as the refund request goes along with their required rules.

dan958 · August 2016

I'd like to have a 10 minute or something trial with each appearance/mount item, that would be nice.

Daraxina · September 2016

What if you only bought 3 of the DLC's less than 5 days ago?
Can you get a refund then?
Girlfriend didn't know the bundle was coming out and feels cheated especially since she impulse bought Imperial as it was on sale less than 2 days before the bundle with it included came out!

scorpiodog · September 2016

You want to refund that skin after you were wearing it?

eewwww ...

KhajiitiLizard · September 2016

Graydon wrote: »

Also, just to avoid all controversy and rage - make the 60 minute refund policy a perk exclusive to subscribers

That would to the exact opposite of what you say.

Mojmir · September 2016

I know a couple of games that let you refund purchases but only with their currency,call it store credit. And your time frame for a refund is first 24 hours 90% after that it drops to 60%.