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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/508927/

Open letter: Exploits, Perma Bans, Naming & Shaming

  • HeroOfNone
    HeroOfNone
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    Tandor wrote: »
    HeroOfNone wrote: »
    Tandor wrote: »
    I'm all for a zero tolerance approach to cheating in any form. First offence a one week suspension (if it's temporary it's a suspension, not a ban), second offence a permanent ban. There's simply no excuse for cheating, none whatsoever. Arguing as some do that if a developer introduces a bug into a game then it's ok to exploit it is no different to excusing a burglary on the grounds that the victim left his door open.

    I am, however, totally in favour of the naming and shaming policy, it's for ZOS to decide if someone is cheating, not the players who should merely report their suspicions privately. Allowing naming and shaming by players offers far too much scope for abuse.

    Accusations for naming and shaming aren't up for debate here, but reporting back if a person was exploiting. Like you said, it's up to ZOS, nor a court of public opinion, to see if someone is guilty. Once someone has been caught however feedback back to the reporter should come back to let them know they got it right and not to repeat any kind of exploit.

    I'm afraid the way forums work isn't on the basis that the OP gets to decide what is and what isn't up for debate within the subjects he has listed. You listed the need to review the naming and shaming policy in your original post, and it's perfectly valid for me to comment on any aspect of that. Besides, you have already indicated to another poster your view on that aspect so I am perfectly entitled to indicate my view on it, which as it happens accords with your own view. You don't, however, control the topic, that's for the mods to do.

    Few if any developers will report back to an individual player on the outcome of a report against another player, and there is a similar reluctance to publish the outcome of individual cases. Either course could open a veritable Pandora's Box with claims of defamation or libel etc and there's simply no way developers are going to put themselves at risk in that way. In any event I see no benefit in that changing here, although I welcomed @ZOS_JessicaFolsom's agreement to pursue the possibility of publishing regular updates on the overall number of suspensions and bans which I would still be happy to see. Indeed, I support the call for an official update on that.

    As I discussed earlier in the thread, Naming & shaming affects more than just forum posts, it permeates many aspects of ESO, more notably reporting players. As I gave an example:
    HeroOfNone wrote: »
    Thing Is that ZOS would have already played the judge & jury, and are letting you know the sentence. And your correct that ZOS would have the evidence that someone cheated, if it wasn't conclusive evidence I wouldn't expect to hear anything from them. Here is an example:

    Player A is recording their game, standing in thier inner keep with the walls up. Suddenly player B uses crit rush to attack player A, kill them, and flip the keep. Player A reports them asking if this is a exploit. ZOS comes back saying "thank you for your report, we'll investigate this issue. We can't tell you the results of this investigation" and gives no response after. In the next few days, player C and Player D do similar things and Player A reports them each time, getting the same response. By the 3rd report, player A wonders if it's a legal tactic, because it seems everyone is doing it, and now they start using crit rush to bypass walls.

    This could have gone different if ZOS came out and said "we'll investigate" and after several days came back and said "thank you for your report. Using gap closers to bypass walls is indeed an exploit. We will take appropriate action to handle this, please understand we do not discuss the penalties about other players. Thank you for your time."


    This can't happen with the current system though. We never see this unless the incident is so major everyone know it.

    In addition to this there are a lot of folks spreading misinformation about being perma banned for a first offense. I feel that ZOS should be upfront in saying "no, this was you 5th or 8th offense, it's time to go" and give us more information.

    As stated, there is no real defamation or libel here, we're simply stating the facts. On top of that, as discussed, this isn't new territory
    HeroOfNone wrote: »
    Naming and Shaming isn't allowed because if it were it would make Zenimax look unprofessional. This honestly goes for any company really.

    I disagree.

    Several games like Team fortress 2, DOTA 2, and Counter Strike:GO show when players have prior VAC bans on thier accounts. This let's others know when something wierd is happening in game, they see the prior ban, and they can report the player to be investigated.

    League of legends are very vocal about the people they ban and show that they are committed to make their games less toxic.

    And more recently, and notably more popular and by a bigger "professional" company, Overwatch banned several thousand cheaters and even listed their accounts on forums.

    So this isn't anything new, it's something that should be reviewed and possibly tweaked, if what I'm recommending makes sense

    So we have established models showing they can name folks caught cheating or exploiting, we know ZOS have the means to do so, but more important we're not dragging their name through the mud as some vindictive punishment, but to let others know "yeah, good job reporting that, please make sure not to repeat the same offense."

    The compromise with a public apology goes a little different direction then this, but the purpose there is to give a route for otherwise banned players a chance to reform as well as show action is bring taken by ZOS . Different discussion with that one too.
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  • phairdon
    phairdon
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    So... you're saying that if there is a bug/exploit that port me directly to last boss of vMA and i abuse it to get into leaderboards and get 30 super 1337 BiS prosperous 2h sword its ok? i shouldn't get any disciplinary action just beacause ZOS "allowed" it?.

    Um, yes. That's exactly how I feel. Don't punish people for putting out a broken product.

    Tend to agree with this. Always thought players should be given a warning, first & foremost. Continue to exploit the broken mechanic, armor set, weapon or whatever it is, after receiving a warning, then you get banned. Perhaps the offending armor set or weapon should be removed from the game until fixed, as well. Which leaves no chance of players unaware getting themselves into trouble.
    Blatant cheating using the CE, should be a outright permanent ban.
    Also think the discussion should include player behavior too, after witnessing a very nasty case of the fore mentioned.

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  • TheLordSoth
    TheLordSoth
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    Not a big fan on the ban of naming and shaming. A lot of us have paid good money for this game and in the crown store. Also a lot of time practicing and building our game skill. SO when some POS come in and decides to cheat at the game they should be ashamed and shamed. If you can not play a game fairly, your a dirt-bag, period.
  • Lava_Croft
    Lava_Croft
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    This is all too little, too late.
    Xuth.
  • FearlessOne_2014
    FearlessOne_2014
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    NO! PERMA BAN ALL THE WAY!

    YOU CHEAT AND GET CAUGHT YOU DESERVE THE PERMA BAN!

    EITHER LEARN YOU LESSON, SUCK IT UP, AND MAKE A NEW ACCOUNT. OR YOU CAN JUST GO BYE BYE, YOUR KIND IS NOT WELCOMED HERE.

    Sorry for all of the caps. But I have grown beyond super tried of fighting *** bags who think it's funny to ruining my fun by cheating or even worst using programs like cheat engine. So I can get abit super emotional on such topics.
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  • XDragonDoomX
    XDragonDoomX
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    @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

    I've been very vocal myself about being anti cheat & exploit.
    Please, review what the OP has to say, I feel he's come up with some good points
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  • Dread_Viking
    Dread_Viking
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    I largely agree with you Cheat Engine should always be perman bann. but exploiting not so much you are not using a 3 party program it is a design floor in the game mechanics
    temp banns are okay but sometime you might not know thatit is a exploit. also when thy bann a bigger youtuber or streamer thy need to be more trans parent about what hampend
    as it is now the streamer / youtuber can say it was a fals positive and blame ZOS like zergbad has done (don't rly like his stream just so you know i am not saying this couz i an a fanboy)
    have seen this in other game ware no info has been shared by DEV's / moderators has back fired in a major way like DDoS on their servers and so on

    Don't worry girl I'm a Sorcerer, i got my Hardened Ward for protection
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