Help vampires with update to One Tamriel

PS4_ZeColmeia · August 2016

So I was talking in the latest vamps vs werewolf discussion and realized that one of the best benefits to WW is that they have 2-3 sets that are dedicated to WW while vamps have nothing. I feel with the new itemization in 1 tamriel that this is a great opportunity to add that to the game for vamps. While there are 2 crafted sets which "compliment" vamps, there is no jewlery available and they do nothing for actually being a vampire, whereas WW have sets geared around their WW form.

I nominate 2 sets which I think support vamps already, but could use an additional 5 set trait based on vamps and some reworking with the ideas that vamps can be either magicka or stamina (unnatural recovery). These should be modified to have jewelry if they won't already.

Stygian set (current) cp 120
(2 items) Adds 121 Spell Damage
(3 items) Adds 911 Max Stamina
(4 items) Adds 911 Max Magicka
(5 items) While sneaking or invisible, spells do an additional 20% damage.

Stygian set (updated) cp 160
(2 items) Adds 8% healing recieved
(3 items) Adds 967 Max Stamina
(4 items) Adds 967 Max Magicka
(5 items) While sneaking or invisible, spells do an additional 20% damage.
(5 items) While in stage 1 vampire or better, add 129 spell/weapon damage (or whatever savior's hide is)

Soulshine set (current) cp 100
(2 items) Adds 877 Max Magicka
(3 items) Adds 624 Spell Critical
(4 items) Adds 624 Weapon Critical
(5 items) While Casting or Channeling a spell, your spell power is increased by 191.

Soulshine set (updated) cp 160
(2 items) Adds 8% healing done
(3 items) Adds 688 Spell Critical
(4 items) Adds 688 Weapon Critical
(5 items) While Channeling, your weapon/spell critical is increased by 688
(5 items) While in stage 1 of vampire or better, While Channeling, restore 5% of your missing stamina and magicka (same rules as drain essence but 1/4 the rate)

Now before everyone says OP, realize there are only small additive powers for vamps, while the majority of the buff is for everyone. Another thing, these will already be buffed to cp 160 in 1 tamriel so the values I listed in the updated will likely be the values anyways. The idea is to have where, like WW, you could wear both sets to really compliment your Vamp or just this with your other set of choice. There are other sets like light of cyrodiil, skirmishers, etc. will compliment these sets as well.

Again, keep in mind these sets will already be at cp 160. My recommendation is to attach a vamp benefit to these 2 sets (like WW) to make sure you could wear both sets at the same time (like WW) and also to change the first bonus to benefit anyone but to help with vamps most since we always have vunerabilities.

[edited threads title]

cjthibs · August 2016

Vampires are already stronger than WW's and normal players...Why do they need help?

BruhItsOver9000 · August 2016

No, the only thing that vamps need is a hide vamp skin option, once we get that, we're good.

Aeaeren · August 2016

I disagree that this is an imbalance between Vamps and WW (even though WW have their own sets)

um ok I don't think I need any special sets, most likely wouldn't wear them over what I have already.

PS4_ZeColmeia · August 2016

I like the suggestions

cjthibs wrote: »

Vampires are already stronger than WW's and normal players...Why do they need help?

I guess I don't fundamentally agree with your premise. We have an entire line of skills dedicated to hurting vamps 100% of the time (it also has one of the most powerful and popular ultimates), assuming most people are in stage 4 we have -75% hp regen and -25% fire damage resist (100% of the time), and most of our benefits are stage locked (which I think is fair to be in line with WW form being a choice and ultimate slot).

I think that WW armor benefits the choice of form greatly. I think since we manage our form but deal with negatives 100% of the time, I don't think it's too much to ask for a balancing of gear.

Actually after thinking about it, I would adjust my set suggestion to stage 2 or 3 for the benefit or make the bonus tied to the stage of vampirism to be balanced with WW sets. Didn't think of that until i started responding.

Forestd16b14_ESO · August 2016

Here's how you help them........... Don't launch One Tamriel.

PS4_ZeColmeia · August 2016

I like the suggestions

Aeaeren wrote: »

um ok I don't think I need any special sets, most likely wouldn't wear them over what I have already.

That is my point, nothing in these sets should be FOTM or BIS, it should open up another play option if you wanted to. I think you tacitly agreed with my aim on these sets as I put them, but I don't want to assume.

cjthibs · August 2016

PS4_ZeColmeia wrote: »

cjthibs wrote: »

Vampires are already stronger than WW's and normal players...Why do they need help?

I guess I don't fundamentally agree with your premise. We have an entire line of skills dedicated to hurting vamps 100% of the time (it also has one of the most powerful and popular ultimates), assuming most people are in stage 4 we have -75% hp regen and -25% fire damage resist (100% of the time), and most of our benefits are stage locked (which I think is fair to be in line with WW form being a choice and ultimate slot).

I think that WW armor benefits the choice of form greatly. I think since we manage our form but deal with negatives 100% of the time, I don't think it's too much to ask for a balancing of gear.

Actually after thinking about it, I would adjust my set suggestion to stage 2 or 3 for the benefit or make the bonus tied to the stage of vampirism to be balanced with WW sets. Didn't think of that until i started responding.

If you know how to play it correctly, it is stronger.
It's not supposed to be an easy-mode button.

RoyJade · August 2016

I disagree that this is an imbalance between Vamps and WW (even though WW have their own sets)

Vamps are really strong at the moment, while werewolves still have their worst downside : the total inability to use something else than the ww's skills. That's why they heavily rely on stuff, when vamps have normal builds with some additions.

Remember that vamp is a passive state, who add you some tool to your actual one, while WW is an active state who totally change your gameplay while removing nearly all your other tools. That's why a stuff builded around this specific and totally unique active state seem fine, when stuff around some skills (not on vampire : only vampire skill) is not. Only master/MA weapon seem fine for a specific skill.

PS4_ZeColmeia · August 2016

I like the suggestions

cjthibs wrote: »

PS4_ZeColmeia wrote: »

cjthibs wrote: »

Vampires are already stronger than WW's and normal players...Why do they need help?

I guess I don't fundamentally agree with your premise. We have an entire line of skills dedicated to hurting vamps 100% of the time (it also has one of the most powerful and popular ultimates), assuming most people are in stage 4 we have -75% hp regen and -25% fire damage resist (100% of the time), and most of our benefits are stage locked (which I think is fair to be in line with WW form being a choice and ultimate slot).

I think that WW armor benefits the choice of form greatly. I think since we manage our form but deal with negatives 100% of the time, I don't think it's too much to ask for a balancing of gear.

Actually after thinking about it, I would adjust my set suggestion to stage 2 or 3 for the benefit or make the bonus tied to the stage of vampirism to be balanced with WW sets. Didn't think of that until i started responding.

If you know how to play it correctly, it is stronger.
It's not supposed to be an easy-mode button.

What exactly makes them stronger in your opinion? I am not sure I agree. I think there is a strong argument 1v1, but I would put X v X towards WW as the numbers go up (there might be a point where a well stacked vampire bat swarm group would be stronger, but only for the duration of the spell and not after the multiple fears are unleashed from the WWs).

cjthibs · August 2016

PS4_ZeColmeia wrote: »

cjthibs wrote: »

PS4_ZeColmeia wrote: »

cjthibs wrote: »

Vampires are already stronger than WW's and normal players...Why do they need help?

I guess I don't fundamentally agree with your premise. We have an entire line of skills dedicated to hurting vamps 100% of the time (it also has one of the most powerful and popular ultimates), assuming most people are in stage 4 we have -75% hp regen and -25% fire damage resist (100% of the time), and most of our benefits are stage locked (which I think is fair to be in line with WW form being a choice and ultimate slot).

I think that WW armor benefits the choice of form greatly. I think since we manage our form but deal with negatives 100% of the time, I don't think it's too much to ask for a balancing of gear.

Actually after thinking about it, I would adjust my set suggestion to stage 2 or 3 for the benefit or make the bonus tied to the stage of vampirism to be balanced with WW sets. Didn't think of that until i started responding.

If you know how to play it correctly, it is stronger.
It's not supposed to be an easy-mode button.

What exactly makes them stronger in your opinion? I am not sure I agree. I think there is a strong argument 1v1, but I would put X v X towards WW as the numbers go up (there might be a point where a well stacked vampire bat swarm group would be stronger, but only for the duration of the spell and not after the multiple fears are unleashed from the WWs).

Bat Swarm and Mist Form are quite powerful if used in right situations.
Magicka AND Stamina recovery.
Damage Reductions as well.

How many passives do WW's get at all times?
1. Stam Regen, but ONLY if WW is slotted.

Yes, there are downsides to being a vampire, but if a player knows how to properly use the upsides they can be quite strong.

The main difference is this:
Werewolf is a few minutes of awesome here and there.
Vampire is a set of tools that can be used to enhance just about any build out there.

PS4_ZeColmeia · August 2016

I like the suggestions

RoyJade wrote: »

Vamps are really strong at the moment, while werewolves still have their worst downside : the total inability to use something else than the ww's skills. That's why they heavily rely on stuff, when vamps have normal builds with some additions.

Remember that vamp is a passive state, who add you some tool to your actual one, while WW is an active state who totally change your gameplay while removing nearly all your other tools. That's why a stuff builded around this specific and totally unique active state seem fine, when stuff around some skills (not on vampire : only vampire skill) is not. Only master/MA weapon seem fine for a specific skill.

I think great argument! I do agree with the active vs passive state. That said, you would only switch and stay when it is beneficial to you and you have the right level experience playing it. IMHO, that negates the point you are making because, just like a sorc give's up an ultimate with overload in return for access to more skills then they would other wise had (still agree with you that unlike a sorc, they don't do that at the cost of access to those other 2 bars).

If WW, for instance, had stamina regen and 5% disease damage outside of WW form then I kinda would have a lot more agreement with your point. On the other hand, since you have the choice I think the only slight imbalance is WW taking an ultimate slot on 1 bar. That is slightly balanced with most people play with a buff bar (but I don't so I know may others don't so it's not a strong stance). But since, again, you can chose to remove that negative, you are still choosing when to be impacted.

I would counter that having a set makes more sense for a vamp because they can't manage their negatives on the whim of the play situation (we can plan ahead, but normally can't do much after we start a session). As such, having a set which compliments our strengths would make more sense.

I'm not a nerf fan, I'm a more options to play fan of which this is a suggestion for.

potirondb16_ESO · August 2016

I disagree that this is an imbalance between Vamps and WW (even though WW have their own sets)

Werewolf bonus are actually link to an ultimate while vampire remain 100% through all the content due to stage nature. Everyone in the game can be a vampire and feel the bonus only when they feel like it and receive no malus whenever they want.

So overall vampire is overpowering Werewolf on that aspect. Werewolf are still interesting to play but they do deserve dedicated set in order to help them achieve their goal. If any set were to apply to vampire it would need to apply past stage 2 at least.

PS4_ZeColmeia · August 2016

I like the suggestions

cjthibs wrote: »

PS4_ZeColmeia wrote: »

cjthibs wrote: »

PS4_ZeColmeia wrote: »

cjthibs wrote: »

Vampires are already stronger than WW's and normal players...Why do they need help?

I guess I don't fundamentally agree with your premise. We have an entire line of skills dedicated to hurting vamps 100% of the time (it also has one of the most powerful and popular ultimates), assuming most people are in stage 4 we have -75% hp regen and -25% fire damage resist (100% of the time), and most of our benefits are stage locked (which I think is fair to be in line with WW form being a choice and ultimate slot).

I think that WW armor benefits the choice of form greatly. I think since we manage our form but deal with negatives 100% of the time, I don't think it's too much to ask for a balancing of gear.

Actually after thinking about it, I would adjust my set suggestion to stage 2 or 3 for the benefit or make the bonus tied to the stage of vampirism to be balanced with WW sets. Didn't think of that until i started responding.

If you know how to play it correctly, it is stronger.
It's not supposed to be an easy-mode button.

What exactly makes them stronger in your opinion? I am not sure I agree. I think there is a strong argument 1v1, but I would put X v X towards WW as the numbers go up (there might be a point where a well stacked vampire bat swarm group would be stronger, but only for the duration of the spell and not after the multiple fears are unleashed from the WWs).

Bat Swarm and Mist Form are quite powerful if used in right situations.
Magicka AND Stamina recovery.
Damage Reductions as well.

How many passives do WW's get at all times?
1. Stam Regen, but ONLY if WW is slotted.

Yes, there are downsides to being a vampire, but if a player knows how to properly use the upsides they can be quite strong.

The main difference is this:
Werewolf is a few minutes of awesome here and there.
Vampire is a set of tools that can be used to enhance just about any build out there.

So I fully agree with your summary at the end and to that point, there is differences in how things should work for each class. I don't think that differences in playstyle justify no sets to benefit either.

Bat swarm, specifically devouring swarm, is very powerful. 100% agree. WW does provide a lot of passive benefits, but I don't want to dither that bat swarm is powerful.

Mist form however balances itself by negating healing done to you and magicka recovery. There is no stamina form, so there is a lot of negative depending on your pool. WW have 2 sources of healing 1 in either magicka or stamina with good morphs to support the choice of either.

Drain essence is also powerful, but its a channel. That is why Soul Shine would be such a good compliment. That said, there are more channels in the game, so I think keeping that for everyone but adding a small vamp bonus is reasonable.

Supernatural recovery is always on if in stage 2 (which is also the case for undeath and unnatural recovery, all of which makes it balanced with WW). I don't think since these are locked behind worse weaknesses that you can say it's no longer imbalanced with WW not getting the regen while slotted and access to skills when not transformed.

____________
So really, in my opinion, Bat swarm is the only skill in Vamp that doesn't have a negative associated with using it but it's an ultimate so big deal. No passive for slotting it we just get a strong skill when we choose to use it.

____________
My point is that this isn't a nerf this or the other. It's a "hi I'd like to have a set that benefits me for taking risk all the time, just like WW would put on a set that benefits them when they want to take a WW risk. This difference is I would keep my set on all or most of the time vs a WW which would trade it out when not going WW.

Then again, we established there are differences in playstyles with each disease, the use of sets I am proposing follows the same logic of how you play. This therefore is more consistent then what we have in place.

PS4_ZeColmeia · August 2016

I like the suggestions

potirondb16_ESO wrote: »

Werewolf bonus are actually link to an ultimate while vampire remain 100% through all the content due to stage nature. Everyone in the game can be a vampire and feel the bonus only when they feel like it and receive no malus whenever they want.

So overall vampire is overpowering Werewolf on that aspect. Werewolf are still interesting to play but they do deserve dedicated set in order to help them achieve their goal. If any set were to apply to vampire it would need to apply past stage 2 at least.

After replying to the first response I thought of the same thing. I think having stage 1 give 0% bonus and then 25%/50%/100% of the bonuses I suggested for stages 2/3/4, respectively, would be a good balance.

I agree.

PS4_ZeColmeia · August 2016

I like the suggestions

EDIT: Stupid post. Can delete

ParaNostram · August 2016

I like the suggestions

I like the idea but I question the mechanics of it. I don't know if ESO has any armor yet that has a "If X then Y" sort of function on it. I worry that the coding might be a little glitchy or lead to new bugs.

I would propose entirely new sets personally.

PS4_ZeColmeia · August 2016

I like the suggestions

ParaNostram wrote: »

I like the idea but I question the mechanics of it. I don't know if ESO has any armor yet that has a "If X then Y" sort of function on it. I worry that the coding might be a little glitchy or lead to new bugs.

I would propose entirely new sets personally.

I think so. The weapon damage bonus for savior's hide doesn't trigger unless you are in ww form. Your character sheet has what your stage is, so everything is there. Additionally the 2 sets are already tied to a action switch occurring or state of being (hidden or stealth) so I am 100% certain it exists.

Roechacca · August 2016

I like where your mind is at but don't have time to run the numbers. Sets that are vampire exclusive like WW have are a cool idea. I like that part of this.

Cryptical · August 2016

RoyJade wrote: »

Vamps are really strong at the moment, while werewolves still have their worst downside : the total inability to use something else than the ww's skills. That's why they heavily rely on stuff, when vamps have normal builds with some additions.

Remember that vamp is a passive state, who add you some tool to your actual one, while WW is an active state who totally change your gameplay while removing nearly all your other tools. That's why a stuff builded around this specific and totally unique active state seem fine, when stuff around some skills (not on vampire : only vampire skill) is not. Only master/MA weapon seem fine for a specific skill.

This is an excellent point which demands further consideration.

SolarCat02 · August 2016

Vampire exclusive sets would be fun!

With that said... As mentioned, the werewolf sets only work when in werewolf mode, so you are giving up your 5th piece bonus the majority of the time in favor of the benefits while your ultimate is active.

Vampire is active all the time, and many people even keep their vampires permanently in Stage 4. My main is a vampire, and I have no issues living in Stage 4, in any content, even places like veteran City of Ash and of course Trials.

Personally, I think it would be a little more fair if the werewolf sets had a second 5 piece bonus that didn't rely on being in werewolf form. Nothing terribly strong, but a little something in the vein of a typical two piece bonus would be nice. THEN maybe a set for vampires.

The Elder Scrolls Online

Help vampires with update to One Tamriel

Help vampires with update to One Tamriel 27 votes