Black Rose:

AfkNinja · August 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

AfkNinja wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

A buddy suggested changing the max health bonus to healing received. This would maintain the set's strength as a tanking option while not giving explicit durability to damage builds. Sounds like another good idea to me.

Healing received is better than 1,000 hp...I would gladly take that?

That 1000 hp does nothing after you take a hit....

Makes you more resistant to burst by absorbing that hit over and over as you heal. Also, heavy armor passives and other bonuses to max health make it come out as a lot more than just 1k base health, and heavy armor and CP make it perform as way more than 1-1.5k effective health in combat.

That health line contributes more to this set's strength than you seem to give it credit for. The issue with Black Rose is that it gives a lot of durability with plenty of damage. Being able to run around with 26k+ health is a huge part of that.

I'd still rather have healing received cause, y'know, it works 100% of the time and healing bonuses are multiplicative atm.

That 1,000-1,500 max hp only does something when you are at 100% hp, as soon as you take at least 1500 dmg it is now doing nothing. Just my opinion.

KisoValley · August 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

A buddy suggested changing the max health bonus to healing received. This would maintain the set's strength as a tanking option while not giving explicit durability to damage builds. Sounds like another good idea to me.

Not sure if serious

SleepyTroll · August 2016

KisoValley wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

A buddy suggested changing the max health bonus to healing received. This would maintain the set's strength as a tanking option while not giving explicit durability to damage builds. Sounds like another good idea to me.

Not sure if serious

That would make it worse lol

Minno · August 2016

AfkNinja wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

AfkNinja wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

A buddy suggested changing the max health bonus to healing received. This would maintain the set's strength as a tanking option while not giving explicit durability to damage builds. Sounds like another good idea to me.

Healing received is better than 1,000 hp...I would gladly take that?

That 1000 hp does nothing after you take a hit....

Makes you more resistant to burst by absorbing that hit over and over as you heal. Also, heavy armor passives and other bonuses to max health make it come out as a lot more than just 1k base health, and heavy armor and CP make it perform as way more than 1-1.5k effective health in combat.

That health line contributes more to this set's strength than you seem to give it credit for. The issue with Black Rose is that it gives a lot of durability with plenty of damage. Being able to run around with 26k+ health is a huge part of that.

I'd still rather have healing received cause, y'know, it works 100% of the time and healing bonuses are multiplicative atm.

That 1,000-1,500 max hp only does something when you are at 100% hp, as soon as you take at least 1500 dmg it is now doing nothing. Just my opinion.

Which oddly is a branching point into why health should mean something as a usable stat aside from being your life force.

Other than shields, the following I know scale off health:
- the explosion passive from soul skill tree

Actually that's it lol.

KisoValley · August 2016

SleepyTroll wrote: »

KisoValley wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

A buddy suggested changing the max health bonus to healing received. This would maintain the set's strength as a tanking option while not giving explicit durability to damage builds. Sounds like another good idea to me.

Not sure if serious

That would make it worse lol

Exactly. Not sure if Kena is serious in thinking it'll be a nerf lol. I have no problem with you Kena and most of your posts are really well thought out, but this really isn't considering there are far worse sets out there in HA, but your last post is pretty silly bro.

DUTCH_REAPER · August 2016

#stopthenerfs
#stoptheinsanity

AfkNinja · August 2016

Minno wrote: »

AfkNinja wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

AfkNinja wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

A buddy suggested changing the max health bonus to healing received. This would maintain the set's strength as a tanking option while not giving explicit durability to damage builds. Sounds like another good idea to me.

Healing received is better than 1,000 hp...I would gladly take that?

That 1000 hp does nothing after you take a hit....

Makes you more resistant to burst by absorbing that hit over and over as you heal. Also, heavy armor passives and other bonuses to max health make it come out as a lot more than just 1k base health, and heavy armor and CP make it perform as way more than 1-1.5k effective health in combat.

That health line contributes more to this set's strength than you seem to give it credit for. The issue with Black Rose is that it gives a lot of durability with plenty of damage. Being able to run around with 26k+ health is a huge part of that.

I'd still rather have healing received cause, y'know, it works 100% of the time and healing bonuses are multiplicative atm.

That 1,000-1,500 max hp only does something when you are at 100% hp, as soon as you take at least 1500 dmg it is now doing nothing. Just my opinion.

Which oddly is a branching point into why health should mean something as a usable stat aside from being your life force.

Other than shields, the following I know scale off health:
- the explosion passive from soul skill tree

Actually that's it lol.

I think all mitigation and heals should scale from the Health stat. It has to have something tied to it to make it as valuable as Magic and Stamina imo.

KenaPKK · August 2016

AfkNinja wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

AfkNinja wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

A buddy suggested changing the max health bonus to healing received. This would maintain the set's strength as a tanking option while not giving explicit durability to damage builds. Sounds like another good idea to me.

Healing received is better than 1,000 hp...I would gladly take that?

That 1000 hp does nothing after you take a hit....

Makes you more resistant to burst by absorbing that hit over and over as you heal. Also, heavy armor passives and other bonuses to max health make it come out as a lot more than just 1k base health, and heavy armor and CP make it perform as way more than 1-1.5k effective health in combat.

That health line contributes more to this set's strength than you seem to give it credit for. The issue with Black Rose is that it gives a lot of durability with plenty of damage. Being able to run around with 26k+ health is a huge part of that.

I'd still rather have healing received cause, y'know, it works 100% of the time and healing bonuses are multiplicative atm.

That 1,000-1,500 max hp only does something when you are at 100% hp, as soon as you take at least 1500 dmg it is now doing nothing. Just my opinion.

By this logic, you would have the same performance in Cyrodiil at 18k health as you do at 30k. Higher max health lets you take more damage at a time, allowing for longer windows of offense before you have to heal and for fighting more people at a time, and it lets you take damage more often, which is the part you're overlooking. Plus if you aren't healing up to full frequently in the current state of the game, then you're doing something wrong.

With healing received instead of max health, BR users would be more susceptible to burst. That's my whole point, and it is sound since the intended audience of the nerf is damage dealers who don't build max health other than food, HA passives, and this set bonus. This bonus is a proportionally larger chunk of their max health.

Also I simply stated a suggestion that a friend made to me. I said it's good, but I didn't say that it's what should be done. I'm still in favor of my OP. Stop putting words in my mouth.

Same goes for you @KisoValley , I don't even understand your comment. Either you don't understand the implications of the max health bonus to stam damage builds either, or you don't realize that BR is head and shoulders stronger than medium sets for brawly stam builds right now.

AfkNinja · August 2016

We aren't talking about 12,000 hp here Kena, c'mon man that's a strawman. You're talkin about going from 28,000 hp to 30,500~ which is a light attack or dot proc.

Also I put no words in your mouth? What?

Like I said in my post, it's just my opinion that with the way heal bonuses stack in a multiplicative manner that 4% healing taken would be better than that 1,000-1,500 hp. I would love that change....

Edit: The amount of time I spend at full hp in pvp is just rather small I guess, just a difference of opinion.

Let me explain it in a little different way for my Heavy armor templar assuming modest CP gains.

8% restoring focus
10% temp passive
25% major mending
5% healing taken cp
5% healing given cp
8% heavy armor

+76% healing

with black rose change

83% healing or 7% more actually from a 4% bonus.

Sile · August 2016

Giving it Magicka will just make it more of a Magicka set.

Change the bonus from Constitution to 40% extra on Heavy Attacks, no more permablocking, still viable for tanking or Stam.

KenaPKK · August 2016

Sile wrote: »

Giving it Magicka will just make it more of a Magicka set.

Making it equally attractive to magicka and stamina classes is the point. ZOS had intended this in the first place by making its damage bonus hybrid.

Sile wrote: »

Change the bonus from Constitution to 40% extra on Heavy Attacks, no more permablocking, still viable for tanking or Stam.

That's an interesting idea.

Minno · August 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

Sile wrote: »

Giving it Magicka will just make it more of a Magicka set.

Making it equally attractive to magicka and stamina classes is the point. ZOS had intended this in the first place by making its damage bonus hybrid.

Sile wrote: »

Change the bonus from Constitution to 40% extra on Heavy Attacks, no more permablocking, still viable for tanking or Stam.

That's an interesting idea.

I second that. Now that's an interesting change:
- I think at most I was able to get 4-5k Magicka on staff attacks with my build. It includes 46 to that CP star that increased heavy attack Regen.
- adding 40% means I can go from 4000 Magicka per heavy attack to 5600.

raasdal · August 2016

@AfkNinja - Just fyi that is not how healing stacks. The healing done bonuses stacks Additively, which then stacks multiplicatively with the Healing Received bonuses, which stacks additively. Healing done and healing received are two seperate game actions, which is why they cam stack multiplicatively. Same as damage done and damage received (target debuff).

Unless something changed very recently and not covered in Asayres calculations, that is.

Alcast · August 2016

its funny that i have better sustain management in Heavy armor than in medium armor. /logic

Kas · August 2016

i don't see how black rose is any worse than the other strong sets (velidreth, viper, alchemist, fasallas, and many more). most annoying one is reactive, imho. just as bad as malubeth at its peak

KenaPKK · August 2016

Kas wrote: »

i don't see how black rose is any worse than the other strong sets (velidreth, viper, alchemist, fasallas, and many more). most annoying one is reactive, imho. just as bad as malubeth at its peak

Reactive had a bug causing it to activate when walking on templar rituals, which basically meant it was always active in fights. Now that that's fixed, I haven't personally had issues with it. Does it still feel overbearing to you since the fix?

Viper and Velidreth are definitely op too in my opinion -- just as op as Black Rose in fact. Fasalla's is op, but so is healing...therefore I like Fasalla's and have run it quite a bit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzx2p1rKLtk

Alchemist...oh alchemist. Do you really have to be a thing? I'm not a fan. In fact, I've never owned a set and will likely not craft one for a long time. That said, alch doesn't appear to be distorting the game like Viper, Veli, and BR for two reasons. One, people who use alch tend to build glass cannon with next to no sustain, which is a significant tradeoff. And two, people are getting tankier and tankier with each patch, so having some high burst builds out there is healthy.

It's when stam can be high burst...and high sustain...and highly durable that I have a problem, thus the thread.

KisoValley · August 2016

Why am I not surprised you run fasalla's yet are complaining about black rose lol. I was right when I said it earlier lmao.

Pretty much makes this thread absolutely pointless now imo. I'll wait until someone unbiased makes a thread with logical changes rather than buffs to black rose.

e: If you don't get it, which I assume you won't, everyone and their mother is running fasalla's or reactive. Reactive not as much since the fix but fasalla's is everywhere just like black rose is everywhere. Difference is, stamina builds are even running fasalla's over black rose. It is a much bigger problem than black rose but you won't admit that because you run it yourself.

Minno · August 2016

Alcast wrote: »

its funny that i have better sustain management in Heavy armor than in medium armor. /logic

I love that heavy armor gives us two ways to gain resources on top of using regen. Though I think they need to look at how medium and light armor provide resources and give a unique way to give them to a player. Maybe add resources back based on dmg?

KenaPKK · August 2016

KisoValley wrote: »

Why am I not surprised you run fasalla's yet are complaining about black rose lol. I was right when I said it earlier lmao.

Pretty much makes this thread absolutely pointless now imo. I'll wait until someone unbiased makes a thread with logical changes rather than buffs to black rose.

e: If you don't get it, which I assume you won't, everyone and their mother is running fasalla's or reactive. Reactive not as much since the fix but fasalla's is everywhere just like black rose is everywhere. Difference is, stamina builds are even running fasalla's over black rose. It is a much bigger problem than black rose but you won't admit that because you run it yourself.

Wow, someone stepped on your tail this morning.

I didn't propose BR buffs, Fasalla's is not nearly that popular in NA, and it's only op on paper. Fasalla's counterbalances the insanely op healing that we have right now, so I welcome it.

Now take your negativity elsewhere. BR defines the stamina meta right now because it gives damage, durability, and sustain like no other set. Fasalla's does not.

Vangy · August 2016

OR

Leave black rose as it is and make a new magicka heavy armour set? Stop making me re-gold gear over and over again please please. Call it white rose or something and make it the magicka equivalent of this. Kinda like why julianos came out as a mirror for hundings....

Aquanova · August 2016

If I could redesign BR Ithe would be as follows.

2 pc = Max Health
3 pc = Max Stamina
4 pc = Max Magicka
5 pc = Increases Constitution passive by 20% down from 40% and now grants Immunity from knock back and disabling effects.

This seems more in line with what I think Heavy Armor should grant, rather than spell/weapon damage.

KenaPKK · August 2016

Vangy wrote: »

OR

Leave black rose as it is and make a new magicka heavy armour set? Stop making me re-gold gear over and over again please please. Call it white rose or something and make it the magicka equivalent of this. Kinda like why julianos came out as a mirror for hundings....

BR is still way overtuned for stamina.

Vangy · August 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

Vangy wrote: »

OR

Leave black rose as it is and make a new magicka heavy armour set? Stop making me re-gold gear over and over again please please. Call it white rose or something and make it the magicka equivalent of this. Kinda like why julianos came out as a mirror for hundings....

BR is still way overtuned for stamina.

?? Why? Most of the time BR users are running fasallas as well and play tanks. Or some of them combo it with agility or endurance and make really tanky brawler builds... I find this faaar prefarable and fun to fight as compared to your typical 6k weapon power gankinator-blades or stam sorcs with ridiculous damage...... BR builds to me are so much more balanced than the broken max resoruce/max weapon/spell power stacking builds.....

KenaPKK · August 2016

Vangy wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

Vangy wrote: »

OR

Leave black rose as it is and make a new magicka heavy armour set? Stop making me re-gold gear over and over again please please. Call it white rose or something and make it the magicka equivalent of this. Kinda like why julianos came out as a mirror for hundings....

BR is still way overtuned for stamina.

?? Why? Most of the time BR users are running fasallas as well and play tanks. Or some of them combo it with agility or endurance and make really tanky brawler builds... I find this faaar prefarable and fun to fight as compared to your typical 6k weapon power gankinator-blades or stam sorcs with ridiculous damage...... BR builds to me are so much more balanced than the broken max resoruce/max weapon/spell power stacking builds.....

But BR in a max resource/damage build does just as much damage as those "gankinator" builds. And stam sorcs with BR do more damage and sustain better than stam sorcs in medium armor sets...so I fail to see your point. The tradeoff of BR is less dodge rolling and no snare immunity from shuffle, NOT damage.

But they're also way tankier and sustain just as well, if not better.

Xsorus · August 2016

Alcast wrote: »

its funny that i have better sustain management in Heavy armor than in medium armor. /logic

Actually this is kind of how it should be though. Heavy armor was designed around being a tank, a tanks main job should be to outlast his opponent and that is done by sustain. The very fact it didn't work like that for a very long time was a problem. Hell back in the day you could block longer in medium armor simply cause of the Stam regen and the cost reduction reducing other stamina abilities leaving ya more to block with.

Vangy · August 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

Vangy wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

Vangy wrote: »

OR

Leave black rose as it is and make a new magicka heavy armour set? Stop making me re-gold gear over and over again please please. Call it white rose or something and make it the magicka equivalent of this. Kinda like why julianos came out as a mirror for hundings....

BR is still way overtuned for stamina.

?? Why? Most of the time BR users are running fasallas as well and play tanks. Or some of them combo it with agility or endurance and make really tanky brawler builds... I find this faaar prefarable and fun to fight as compared to your typical 6k weapon power gankinator-blades or stam sorcs with ridiculous damage...... BR builds to me are so much more balanced than the broken max resoruce/max weapon/spell power stacking builds.....

But BR in a max resource/damage build does just as much damage as those "gankinator" builds. And stam sorcs with BR do more damage and sustain better than stam sorcs in medium armor sets...so I fail to see your point. The tradeoff of BR is less dodge rolling and no snare immunity from shuffle, NOT damage.

But they're also way tankier and sustain just as well, if not better.

Me no gets it... 5 medium = 20% more weapon damage. 5 BR you lose that up front. 5 medium = more crit than 5 BR. 5 set mediums normally come with set bonuses better geared for damage ranging from hundings, vicecannon, viper etc.... Like my NB running 5 medium is rocking 6k weapon damage with 2.8k stam recovery while my DK tank with BR at best can get to 3k weapon damage and 1.2k stam recovery. The BR in no way puts his sustain anywhere near 2.8k stam recovery while in 5pc medium... It does however help with resource management cos you dont need to dodge roll often due to heavy armour being a lot tankier. Yeah my DK is tanky, but he takes a good while to kill anything whereas my NB pops stuff in 1-2 hit wombo combos esp with stealth burst...

So how exactly do stam sorcs with BR do more damage than stam sorcs running 5 pc medium. Me is confused? The words BR and max damage cant even go in the same sentence cos BR does not come in accessories or weapons meaning you are off the bat losing at least 20% weapon power + substantial crit (altho crit isnt as important in PvP but id still want it if im running max damage build as you say) from wearing 5 medium......

EDIT:

Also BR is a tank set that actually allows block to be viable in PvP... If you guys think stamina has too much damage go nerf stam DPS builds please. Fix the stacking of weapon power. Fix the insane stealth bursts. Stop messing with my tank sets..... We tanks are already a rare sight to see.... Like true CC/support tanks. Not the nonsense DPS perma-blockers who are plaguing cyrodill. Do something that nerfs them. Try to avoid collateral damage to us tanks.... We already got slapped by the 0 stam rec while blocking cos of the perma-block dress wearers.... No more pls....

Abob · August 2016

So nice to see heavy armor is finally a good option in PvP.

Thank you ZOS!

KenaPKK · August 2016

@Vangy go play with BR on a 2h/bow damage spec. BR + Agility + 1 Kena + 1 Velidreth + Maelstrom weapons. Your impressions and opinions of the set on paper do not match its performance in game.

Also we're not advocating nerfing its usefulness for tanks.

Vangy · August 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

@Vangy go play with BR on a 2h/bow damage spec. BR + Agility + 1 Kena + 1 Velidreth + Maelstrom weapons. Your impressions and opinions of the set on paper do not match its performance in game.

Also we're not advocating nerfing its usefulness for tanks.

I have all those items so I guess I can go throw it onto one of my stam toons to try it out. I doubt Id be able to get anywhere past 3.5k weapon damage tho.... like 154 from BR, 129 each from kena and veli, 190 from agi would make about 600 weapon damage... Maelstrom would add about 200 on bow which makes it 800 for bow bar. Id estimate about 16-18k resists too with about 30% crit... So a good damaging sustainy build would result... Just give magicka an equivalent of this and they can have a good damagy brawler build too?

I need to go try it out and see if it really is OP as you guys say it is. I cant imagine its going to be more broken cheesy than the 5 reactive + 2 malu perma block BOL templars tbh... But who knows. Maybe this 5 BR DPS build thing might just be my cup of tea lol.

SleepyTroll · August 2016

Vangy wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

Vangy wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

Vangy wrote: »

OR

Leave black rose as it is and make a new magicka heavy armour set? Stop making me re-gold gear over and over again please please. Call it white rose or something and make it the magicka equivalent of this. Kinda like why julianos came out as a mirror for hundings....

BR is still way overtuned for stamina.

?? Why? Most of the time BR users are running fasallas as well and play tanks. Or some of them combo it with agility or endurance and make really tanky brawler builds... I find this faaar prefarable and fun to fight as compared to your typical 6k weapon power gankinator-blades or stam sorcs with ridiculous damage...... BR builds to me are so much more balanced than the broken max resoruce/max weapon/spell power stacking builds.....

But BR in a max resource/damage build does just as much damage as those "gankinator" builds. And stam sorcs with BR do more damage and sustain better than stam sorcs in medium armor sets...so I fail to see your point. The tradeoff of BR is less dodge rolling and no snare immunity from shuffle, NOT damage.

But they're also way tankier and sustain just as well, if not better.

Me no gets it... 5 medium = 20% more weapon damage. 5 BR you lose that up front. 5 medium = more crit than 5 BR. 5 set mediums normally come with set bonuses better geared for damage ranging from hundings, vicecannon, viper etc.... Like my NB running 5 medium is rocking 6k weapon damage with 2.8k stam recovery while my DK tank with BR at best can get to 3k weapon damage and 1.2k stam recovery. The BR in no way puts his sustain anywhere near 2.8k stam recovery while in 5pc medium... It does however help with resource management cos you dont need to dodge roll often due to heavy armour being a lot tankier. Yeah my DK is tanky, but he takes a good while to kill anything whereas my NB pops stuff in 1-2 hit wombo combos esp with stealth burst...

So how exactly do stam sorcs with BR do more damage than stam sorcs running 5 pc medium. Me is confused? The words BR and max damage cant even go in the same sentence cos BR does not come in accessories or weapons meaning you are off the bat losing at least 20% weapon power + substantial crit (altho crit isnt as important in PvP but id still want it if im running max damage build as you say) from wearing 5 medium......

EDIT:

Also BR is a tank set that actually allows block to be viable in PvP... If you guys think stamina has too much damage go nerf stam DPS builds please. Fix the stacking of weapon power. Fix the insane stealth bursts. Stop messing with my tank sets..... We tanks are already a rare sight to see.... Like true CC/support tanks. Not the nonsense DPS perma-blockers who are plaguing cyrodill. Do something that nerfs them. Try to avoid collateral damage to us tanks.... We already got slapped by the 0 stam rec while blocking cos of the perma-block dress wearers.... No more pls....

I'm not saying your wrong, buy in all your reasons why medium is better there's one problem, you are forgetting wrath when bring up the medium weapon passive. Actually, a couple other notes. First, 5 medium gives crit yes, but due to heavy armor plus the 5 piece bonus BR users can run thief instead of serpent. Second, yes you may sacrifice some damage for switching to heavy, but it is surely not as much as you are trying to lead people to believe. As for you NB in medium having 6k weapon damage and 2.8k regen, that is *** ridiculous and we need soft caps back, unless your fudging the numbers to push your point.