Is it time to talk about this new (...old...) negate meta?

Sanct16 · August 2016

The center of the enemy negate has to be within your own negate in order to remove it.

FriedEggSandwich · August 2016

Kas wrote: »

Morostyle wrote: »

counter negate with a negate is possible - standards are not negatable tho, been tested

KenaPKK wrote: »

Friendly and enemy negates layer on each other. One won't erase the other. At least that's how it worked after the buffs.

a contradiction? from what i've seen the countering/removing appears to be rather random and happen relatively seldom. I'm 100% sure i've seen neagtes not remove some effects (like standards and yes, also enemy neagates). on the other hand (especially when solo but still with negate on my bar) i could have sworn it ereased certain group effects (like an enemy negate) but absolutely not reliably. It's possible that effects ran out the exact second I negated but tbh it didn't feel like it.

further, i'm 100% sure that layering of enemy and own negates exists.

is it possible that it's either bugged or that exactly one effect (including healing springs and other spammed stuff) is negated? as a rule of thumb, not accounting for an existing group effect to be removed, seems to be the best bet and countering is absolutely not reliable. but it would still be great to fully understand the interaction

Even if a friendly negate layers over an enemy one, rather than removing it, at least you have still effectively negated it by creating an area of ground that is hostile to both parties.

Vaoh · August 2016

Negate Magic is fine except for the visual bug.

It's possible for it to lock onto the caster causing the bubble to appear as if it's following them around. However, only the visual bubble effect follows the caster, while the DoT+Silence remains where it was originally casted. This leads to the "invisible Negate" issue.

With the large amount of inherent Stamina benefits and the current Stamina/Magicka imbalance in PvP, it would be cool to allow Shifting Standard to have a similar debuff as Negate.

Shifting Standard could apply a silence to all Stamina abilities during its first cast only (second calling of the Standard would not apply this debuff). Similar duration and function to Negate. Would help the imbalance a bit for PvP imo.

NBrookus · August 2016

I live the idea of Standard shutting down stamina abilities as a counter balance to negate - but only if they can't overwrite each other.

Even so, it won't be nearly as punishing to stamina players, since they have the stam to get out whereas a magicka user is more likely to get caught without enough stam. Too bad we couldn't make getting out of a stamina-negating Standard cost magicka.

KenaPKK · August 2016

NBrookus wrote: »

I live the idea of Standard shutting down stamina abilities as a counter balance to negate - but only if they can't overwrite each other.

Even so, it won't be nearly as punishing to stamina players, since they have the stam to get out whereas a magicka user is more likely to get caught without enough stam. Too bad we couldn't make getting out of a stamina-negating Standard cost magicka.

"All abilities cast inside Standard of Might now cost magicka."

Op af but it'd be hilarious!

Derra · August 2016

Joy_Division wrote: »

Negate is strong but I don't have too much of an issue with it.

What I do have a problem is that Standard and Nova are noticeably more expensive, not even in the same ballpark regarding effectiveness, and get removed by the cheaper negate.

That´s the problem with the other two ultimates being useful in pve whereas i only know of 1 situation where you´d negate there.

Minalan · August 2016

Don't people just... Roll right out of negate?

The only way it gets you is if the area is carpeted with them or you're not paying attention.

And if the enemy has enough coordinated ultimates to blanket an area, you're probably effed either way.

Lucky28 · August 2016

It should be nerfed into the ground. if i ever go back to playing my sorc i don't want to be playing no negate monkey.

Master_Kas · August 2016

Joy_Division wrote: »

Negate is strong but I don't have too much of an issue with it.

What I do have a problem is that Standard and Nova are noticeably more expensive, not even in the same ballpark regarding effectiveness, and get removed by the cheaper negate.

Veil of blades too, but yeah. True story bruh

Dojohoda · August 2016

Player placed negate is okay. It'd be nice if we could always see where a negate is placed.

Dat npc negate spam tho ... that's not okay.

Elong · August 2016

It's fine.

ToRelax · August 2016

Increasing the cost is a bad idea. That would just make numbers so much more important, and group size/numbers of sorcerers on either side already is a big part of the "issue" here. The other being how essential it is for any organized groups fighting each other.

Erondil · August 2016

DHale wrote: »

Negate is no where near as strong as it was when the game came out on PC. Also, it's fine AND does nothing to Stam builds.

Lol do you even remember what exactly it was doing? It was making ground effect fade. This patch you cant even cast those ground effects, nor any other skill by the way. I barely undersrand how you can think 1.0-1.5 negate was better. But yes back then negate was OP in any large fight, now that its even stronger I hope you see why it needs a change.

KenaPKK wrote: »

I like Negate in its current form. In fact, I wouldn't be opposed to it clearing standards or other negates in addition to the recent buffs.

Getting carpeted by negates suggests you got engaged on, picked a poor fight, or got caught in tight quarters. Carry a sorc or two more, and get yours down on the enemy's magicka uses first.

A group of 12 atm is already 6 sorcs. Nice diversity.

Sanct16 · August 2016

I give up. Do you guys even play this game? It's blowing my mind how anyone can deny that Negate is the strongest Ultimate by far. Then again people think that Magicka DK is viable in groups and that Reactive/Malubeth is a good healer setup so I don't even know why I am surprised.

KenaPKK · August 2016

Dojohoda wrote: »

Player placed negate is okay. It'd be nice if we could always see where a negate is placed.

Dat npc negate spam tho ... that's not okay.

I AGREE

Manoekin · August 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

Dojohoda wrote: »

Player placed negate is okay. It'd be nice if we could always see where a negate is placed.

Dat npc negate spam tho ... that's not okay.

I AGREE

Devs like the NPC negate having the old negate functionality because it makes taking keeps more interesting/challenging from what i remember hearing. At least you're not getting 2 shot by the archer guards anymore. I'll take guard negate over that *** any day.

Sanct16 wrote: »

I give up. Do you guys even play this game? It's blowing my mind how anyone can deny that Negate is the strongest Ultimate by far. Then again people think that Magicka DK is viable in groups and that Reactive/Malubeth is a good healer setup so I don't even know why I am surprised.

Negate has been by far the best ulti in the game since the game came out honestly.

Erondil wrote: »

DHale wrote: »

Negate is no where near as strong as it was when the game came out on PC. Also, it's fine AND does nothing to Stam builds.

Lol do you even remember what exactly it was doing? It was making ground effect fade. This patch you cant even cast those ground effects, nor any other skill by the way. I barely undersrand how you can think 1.0-1.5 negate was better. But yes back then negate was OP in any large fight, now that its even stronger I hope you see why it needs a change.

It is hard to say whether it is better now or back then. Negate right now is far better area denial even though you can cast into it from outside. Negate back then gave your group unlimited resources/sustain. We have that now through other crappy means, but back then if you were better at negating it meant you had that and your opponent didn't. I could go for hours and not pot when our sorcs were on point. Also, ulti's were more prevalent back then with a different ulti gen system which gave them more value I would think.

Elara_Northwind · August 2016

Sorcerers have had enough in the way of nerfs lately, leave them alone for gods sakes

asneakybanana · August 2016

The negate change was needed because from 1.6 through thieves guild negates basically became useless and sorcs were turned into dawnbreaker/meteor spam machines. However, the change went too far and has basically made it so you need to stack sorcs in order to even be viable. The fact that 2 negates will totally cover most chokes and make it so magic builds can't go anywhere to cast or heal other than running away is absolutely absurd. If negates were reverted back to how they were in 1.5 where they could be cc broken out of but ground effects would be negated over the entire duration making it so that the only heal that could be used was breath of life and ground ultimates like meteor, nova and banner couldn't be casted meant that while negate was strong it wasn't an instant I win button. As it is now you cover and entire room with negates you hope and pray there is a healer out of stack to heal otherwise there isn't a thing you can do and its a guaranteed wipe.

TLDR: bring back 1.5 negate where it negates ground effects over its duration but can be cc broken and non ground effect skills can be cast.

Satiar · August 2016

I don't play much anymore so take it for what it's worth, but the Negate changes were wayyyyyy overtuned.

Up until the very day they buffed it I still ran 3-4 negates in VE raids every night. They were incredibly useful, if massively underused. There was a solid period of time where it was the running joke in TS, because as a raid we pretty much lived inside of Novas, veils and Banners. It was the best counter to the higher damage groups we'd fought since 1.6 like Nexus, Haxus and Rage. We often tried different things at the start of a patch but inevitably came back to ground ultimates. To take it further, we often layered an area in Turn Undead to add additional protection from vampires, so all told we where almost always fighting in anywhere between 30%, 48% or 60+% damage resistance. This was also how we replaced barriers. Literally no guild we ran into regularly used negates against us, for some reason, despite the fact that it always murdered stacked groups and absolutely annihilated ground effects.

I'm still not sure why they buffed negate. It didn't need to do damage like a DKS or Nova. It didn't need to be a complete blackout for all magic skills. It did what it was meant to do perfectly: counter the other main class ultimates, clear an area and provide a solid .5-2 seconds of reprieve from enemy casting. That's a solid ultimate. They buffed it from "useful and needed in every raid" to past 1.5 levels. And 1.5, for those who remember, was stupid in that regard. GvGs were literally who had more negates. I remember fighting vs Deci or NM, etc. and it was just counter negates until you couldn't counter and then you died. I remember just not bothering with raid because Deci was running with 6 sorcs and I had 1, and there was simply no prospect of winning. It was a pure numbers game, and that's how it feels now.

To sum, a negate is compete area denial, total skill blackout, removes all enemy effects and ultimates and can tick for as much damage as a DKS. It's way overtuned. Period. And the worst part is that it was already a functioning ultimate with a good use for any group. It's pretty lol, and I'm quite surprised to see so many decent players saying it's fine. It's better than 1.5 negate and 1.5 negate was OPAF.

Glory · August 2016

Erondil wrote: »

A group of 12 atm is already 6 sorcs. Nice diversity.

This is also happening on EU? We had a fight this week where the enemy group had as many negates as we had people (I asked, a group of 12 had six negates against six players).

There is a reason that there are so many sorcerers running in competitive groups right now - they provide a 12 second window of time where an entire area is a dead zone to enemy (magicka) players. Enough of these in groups and you can shut down an entire keep, tower, etc.

And the best counter to a negate? Having more negates of your own to overlap on them.

Erondil · August 2016

ebethke_ESO wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

A group of 12 atm is already 6 sorcs. Nice diversity.

This is also happening on EU? We had a fight this week where the enemy group had as many negates as we had people (I asked, a group of 12 had six negates against six players).

There is a reason that there are so many sorcerers running in competitive groups right now - they provide a 12 second window of time where an entire area is a dead zone to enemy (magicka) players. Enough of these in groups and you can shut down an entire keep, tower, etc.

And the best counter to a negate? Having more negates of your own to overlap on them.

Yup

KenaPKK · August 2016

Kas wrote: »

Morostyle wrote: »

counter negate with a negate is possible - standards are not negatable tho, been tested

KenaPKK wrote: »

Friendly and enemy negates layer on each other. One won't erase the other. At least that's how it worked after the buffs.

a contradiction? from what i've seen the countering/removing appears to be rather random and happen relatively seldom. I'm 100% sure i've seen neagtes not remove some effects (like standards and yes, also enemy neagates). on the other hand (especially when solo but still with negate on my bar) i could have sworn it ereased certain group effects (like an enemy negate) but absolutely not reliably. It's possible that effects ran out the exact second I negated but tbh it didn't feel like it.

further, i'm 100% sure that layering of enemy and own negates exists.

is it possible that it's either bugged or that exactly one effect (including healing springs and other spammed stuff) is negated? as a rule of thumb, not accounting for an existing group effect to be removed, seems to be the best bet and countering is absolutely not reliable. but it would still be great to fully understand the interaction

I'm pretty sure that the visual bug where the negate follows its caster around is the only inconsistency that's been found with the skill. Standards and other negates were 100% not removed by casting a negate at the time of the ability's buffs a short while back. Either the skill has been changed since then, or Glory and the others are mistaken. Novas and veils and all non-ult ground AoEs were lifted as usual. I remember being very confused and surprised at why negate and standard were made to be exceptions...

And you only get in a sorc numbers game if you're trying to fight in/through their negates. I personally like that the silence can't be broken free from because it tends to break up the stacking ball group play style and force people to stay mobile. Right now, if you're not moving, you die. I know this provides a huge defensive advantage when attackers first enter a keep through the breach, but that is the only time I see negate being overtuned in practice.

If any changes are needed or made, I'd be in favor of shortening the overall length of the silence while retaining the duration of ground AoE denial. Introducing a stamina silence to the heal morph and making negate remove all ground AoEs including other negates and standards would be nice imo as well.

The ground AoE denial should remain the primary purpose of Negate imo. As it is on live, though, the magicka silence is its most potent component. I still like the strengthened silence, though.

Erondil · August 2016

Satiar wrote: »

I don't play much anymore so take it for what it's worth, but the Negate changes were wayyyyyy overtuned.

Up until the very day they buffed it I still ran 3-4 negates in VE raids every night. They were incredibly useful, if massively underused. There was a solid period of time where it was the running joke in TS, because as a raid we pretty much lived inside of Novas, veils and Banners. It was the best counter to the higher damage groups we'd fought since 1.6 like Nexus, Haxus and Rage. We often tried different things at the start of a patch but inevitably came back to ground ultimates. To take it further, we often layered an area in Turn Undead to add additional protection from vampires, so all told we where almost always fighting in anywhere between 30%, 48% or 60+% damage resistance. This was also how we replaced barriers. Literally no guild we ran into regularly used negates against us, for some reason, despite the fact that it always murdered stacked groups and absolutely annihilated ground effects.

I'm still not sure why they buffed negate. It didn't need to do damage like a DKS or Nova. It didn't need to be a complete blackout for all magic skills. It did what it was meant to do perfectly: counter the other main class ultimates, clear an area and provide a solid .5-2 seconds of reprieve from enemy casting. That's a solid ultimate. They buffed it from "useful and needed in every raid" to past 1.5 levels. And 1.5, for those who remember, was stupid in that regard. GvGs were literally who had more negates. I remember fighting vs Deci or NM, etc. and it was just counter negates until you couldn't counter and then you died. I remember just not bothering with raid because Deci was running with 6 sorcs and I had 1, and there was simply no prospect of winning. It was a pure numbers game, and that's how it feels now.

To sum, a negate is compete area denial, total skill blackout, removes all enemy effects and ultimates and can tick for as much damage as a DKS. It's way overtuned. Period. And the worst part is that it was already a functioning ultimate with a good use for any group. It's pretty lol, and I'm quite surprised to see so many decent players saying it's fine. It's better than 1.5 negate and 1.5 negate was OPAF.

Entirely agreed. Last patch negate was vital in GvG especially agaisnt a bigger group, to clear the area and give a very short period of time where the ennemy group would get no heal, long enough to burst. The problem was that it was only effective for organised largescale guilds and that doesnt even represent 10% of the PvP population, so they changed it to be extremely easy to use for any random player, not requiring any timing whatsoever and still being more deadly than any other ultimate well used on an ennemy group. Imo they should have kept the base skill the same, make one morph healing (or dot) and the other being completely different, a ranged high instant damage AoE, not silencing. This way sorcs would finally have a good class ultimate for burst, both in solo play and group.

KenaPKK · August 2016

Erondil wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

I don't play much anymore so take it for what it's worth, but the Negate changes were wayyyyyy overtuned.

Up until the very day they buffed it I still ran 3-4 negates in VE raids every night. They were incredibly useful, if massively underused. There was a solid period of time where it was the running joke in TS, because as a raid we pretty much lived inside of Novas, veils and Banners. It was the best counter to the higher damage groups we'd fought since 1.6 like Nexus, Haxus and Rage. We often tried different things at the start of a patch but inevitably came back to ground ultimates. To take it further, we often layered an area in Turn Undead to add additional protection from vampires, so all told we where almost always fighting in anywhere between 30%, 48% or 60+% damage resistance. This was also how we replaced barriers. Literally no guild we ran into regularly used negates against us, for some reason, despite the fact that it always murdered stacked groups and absolutely annihilated ground effects.

I'm still not sure why they buffed negate. It didn't need to do damage like a DKS or Nova. It didn't need to be a complete blackout for all magic skills. It did what it was meant to do perfectly: counter the other main class ultimates, clear an area and provide a solid .5-2 seconds of reprieve from enemy casting. That's a solid ultimate. They buffed it from "useful and needed in every raid" to past 1.5 levels. And 1.5, for those who remember, was stupid in that regard. GvGs were literally who had more negates. I remember fighting vs Deci or NM, etc. and it was just counter negates until you couldn't counter and then you died. I remember just not bothering with raid because Deci was running with 6 sorcs and I had 1, and there was simply no prospect of winning. It was a pure numbers game, and that's how it feels now.

To sum, a negate is compete area denial, total skill blackout, removes all enemy effects and ultimates and can tick for as much damage as a DKS. It's way overtuned. Period. And the worst part is that it was already a functioning ultimate with a good use for any group. It's pretty lol, and I'm quite surprised to see so many decent players saying it's fine. It's better than 1.5 negate and 1.5 negate was OPAF.

Entirely agreed. Last patch negate was vital in GvG especially agaisnt a bigger group, to clear the area and give a very short period of time where the ennemy group would get no heal, long enough to burst. The problem was that it was only effective for organised largescale guilds and that doesnt even represent 10% of the PvP population, so they changed it to be extremely easy to use for any random player, not requiring any timing whatsoever and still being more deadly than any other ultimate well used on an ennemy group. Imo they should have kept the base skill the same, make one morph healing (or dot) and the other being completely different, a ranged high instant damage AoE, not silencing. This way sorcs would finally have a good class ultimate for burst, both in solo play and group.

They do need that badly, but meteor and DB fulfill that role. Could have a .75 second delay or something to give people some room for counterplay, and to make the sorcs cc first if this change were to happen.

I would worry that sorcs would just stack the ult to one shot groups though.

CapuchinSeven · August 2016

Daggerfall_Bones wrote: »

Eh we negate and get negated. Stay out of choke points and you'll be fine.

...I'm pretty sure the main point of the game is to be in the choke points. That's kinda how you push into a keep.

Not coming out either way here, just pointing that out.

Anazasi · August 2016

Rylana wrote: »

One negate on back flag
One negate on steps between flags
One negate on transitus
One negate on scroll pedestal

What do you get?

One keep flipped, with almost no way to stop it.

Spin to win....Negates do not effect stamina abilities. MMMM could be interesting.

ManDraKE · August 2016

the perfect antizerg tool, i love it. Spread out and negate won't affect more than a few, stack on crown and get wiped

Rickter · August 2016

i for one love negate. maybe i wouldnt if it wasnt made useless for several patches. but its a strong ulti and it forces larger groups to stay focused and attentive. if you snooze in a negate, you die. yeah staggering negates can really be hard to counter and honestly - it should be. thats a tactic and it takes coordination to pull off successfully. i give kudos to those types of groups.

DeviousCat · August 2016

SadieJoan wrote: »

Sorcerers have had enough in the way of nerfs lately, leave them alone for gods sakes

I think we should nerf the term nerf and stop whining about skills/ulit's that kicked our butts yesterday. L2P L2P
If Zos gets involved they will characteristically over react and further force my once glorious warrior Sorc into a support role.

The Sorc class ulti's for the most part suck, Atro? Overload, powerfull pve but subject to hard to hit willy nilly aiming in pvp. That leaves Negate, admittedly a game changer in close quarters or choke points but easily avoided anywhere else and counterable.

I could reroll to a pet build healer and spam barrior and war horn but if Im just support I might as well be a Templar and add shards to my support skills for the Stam warriors in the group.

Glory · August 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

I'm pretty sure that the visual bug where the negate follows its caster around is the only inconsistency that's been found with the skill. Standards and other negates were 100% not removed by casting a negate at the time of the ability's buffs a short while back. Either the skill has been changed since then, or Glory and the others are mistaken. Novas and veils and all non-ult ground AoEs were lifted as usual. I remember being very confused and surprised at why negate and standard were made to be exceptions...

I am not mistaken. Proof:

https://youtu.be/CabGbH4oZSM

You can see at first I cannot cast magicka skills due to the red circle of the enemy negate. Then, I walk out and negate his negate, removing the red circle and allowing magicka skills to be cast. This was done on the PTR since I don't have the capability to login multiple characters to test right now on live.