Is it time to talk about this new (...old...) negate meta?

Glory · August 2016

Negates have always been a big part of the meta, but I think it may be worth taking a minute to discuss their overall strength in PvP, particularly group engagements. Now with the changes made to make them unbreakable, they are seeing an even larger resurgence.

There are many groups now running enough sorcerers to carpet an entire area with negate, as this seems to be the flavor of choice now in steamrolling enemies. Not saying this is a bad thing, but when a group is running more negates than the enemy has people...

Curious what other's thoughts are on the way negate has been fitting into the meta. Good? Bad?

Defilted · August 2016

Seems fine to me.

zuto40 · August 2016

Its fine

ToRelax · August 2016

I think there are better ways to make this ultimate desirable than simply making it unbreakable. That not only creates another negate meta as we see now, it also gives stamina builds another advantage. One good thing about it is the need for groups to move out of enemy negates and/or position their sorcerers outside likely target areas though.
Then again, I'm not so sure anything less drastic would be enough for the burst on CP campaigns. When other ultimates almost oneshot, it has to be powerful (though clearly the problem is the overall damage, not a too weak negate then).

arkansas_ESO · August 2016

Give DK Standard a morph that locks out stamina abilities in the way Negate locks out magic abilities and I'm all for it, as of now it's just another thing magic has to deal with that stamina doesn't

Eirella · August 2016

Negate's fine.

KenaPKK · August 2016

I like Negate in its current form. In fact, I wouldn't be opposed to it clearing standards or other negates in addition to the recent buffs.

Getting carpeted by negates suggests you got engaged on, picked a poor fight, or got caught in tight quarters. Carry a sorc or two more, and get yours down on the enemy's magicka uses first.

WreckfulAbandon · August 2016

Give it a morph that shuts down stamina, call it increased gravity or something. And FFS why is shieldbreaker still in the game??

KenaPKK · August 2016

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Give it a morph that shuts down stamina, call it increased gravity or something. And FFS why is shieldbreaker still in the game??

I can definitely get on board with this. 100%

Glory · August 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

I like Negate in its current form. In fact, I wouldn't be opposed to it clearing standards or other negates in addition to the recent buffs.

Getting carpeted by negates suggests you got engaged on, picked a poor fight, or got caught in tight quarters. Carry a sorc or two more, and get yours down on the enemy's magicka uses first.

It does clear negates and standards... lol

Also, bring a sorc or two more? So you're just encouraging to group larger? Solid zerg mentality.

KenaPKK · August 2016

ebethke_ESO wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

I like Negate in its current form. In fact, I wouldn't be opposed to it clearing standards or other negates in addition to the recent buffs.

Getting carpeted by negates suggests you got engaged on, picked a poor fight, or got caught in tight quarters. Carry a sorc or two more, and get yours down on the enemy's magicka uses first.

It does clear negates and standards... lol

Also, bring a sorc or two more? So you're just encouraging to group larger? Solid zerg mentality.

Definitely does not clear enemy negates. Have seen some questionable standards inside them too and have been told they don't clear standards anymore either.

And I didn't say increase your group size. I said adapt your group comp and engage better. Don't put words in my mouth.

Morostyle · August 2016

counter negate with a negate is possible - standards are not negatable tho, been tested

Glory · August 2016

Morostyle wrote: »

counter negate with a negate is possible - standards are not negatable tho, been tested

Interesting, thanks. I knew negates were counterable but I thought standards still got removed.

KenaPKK · August 2016

Friendly and enemy negates layer on each other. One won't erase the other. At least that's how it worked after the buffs.

THEDKEXPERIENCE · August 2016

Nerf the word meta.

Rylana · August 2016

One negate on back flag
One negate on steps between flags
One negate on transitus
One negate on scroll pedestal

What do you get?

One keep flipped, with almost no way to stop it.

Scamandros · August 2016

Rylana wrote: »

One negate on back flag
One negate on steps between flags
One negate on transitus
One negate on scroll pedestal

What do you get?

One keep flipped, with almost no way to stop it.

Not without the proper paperwork matey

DHale · August 2016

Negate is no where near as strong as it was when the game came out on PC. Also, it's fine AND does nothing to Stam builds.

The-Baconator · August 2016

Now that rapids can actually be used in negate I don't care as much but fighting +40 man trains with 8-12 negates when you have 8-12 people is still brutal in a lot of situations when compared to how much easier it was in TG.

Joy_Division · August 2016

Negate is strong but I don't have too much of an issue with it.

What I do have a problem is that Standard and Nova are noticeably more expensive, not even in the same ballpark regarding effectiveness, and get removed by the cheaper negate.

DKsUnite · August 2016

its fine imo, you just gotta know how to make the enemy use their negates first so you can counter

Omgwtfbbq321 · August 2016

WTB negate stamina. I'd feel bad silencing that one mage templar in the group of stamblades

Kas · August 2016

Morostyle wrote: »

counter negate with a negate is possible - standards are not negatable tho, been tested

KenaPKK wrote: »

Friendly and enemy negates layer on each other. One won't erase the other. At least that's how it worked after the buffs.

a contradiction? from what i've seen the countering/removing appears to be rather random and happen relatively seldom. I'm 100% sure i've seen neagtes not remove some effects (like standards and yes, also enemy neagates). on the other hand (especially when solo but still with negate on my bar) i could have sworn it ereased certain group effects (like an enemy negate) but absolutely not reliably. It's possible that effects ran out the exact second I negated but tbh it didn't feel like it.

further, i'm 100% sure that layering of enemy and own negates exists.

is it possible that it's either bugged or that exactly one effect (including healing springs and other spammed stuff) is negated? as a rule of thumb, not accounting for an existing group effect to be removed, seems to be the best bet and countering is absolutely not reliable. but it would still be great to fully understand the interaction

caeliusstarbreaker · August 2016

Wtb the video where crown gives his definition of meta

caeliusstarbreaker · August 2016

Found it

http://youtu.be/5-GTFgf6zuc

Xeven · August 2016

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Give it a morph that shuts down stamina, call it increased gravity or something. And FFS why is shieldbreaker still in the game??

I love you.

Minno · August 2016

Joy_Division wrote: »

Negate is strong but I don't have too much of an issue with it.

What I do have a problem is that Standard and Nova are noticeably more expensive, not even in the same ballpark regarding effectiveness, and get removed by the cheaper negate.

Correct. Because of this, along with the inability to "break free" it should be as expensive as the other big class ultimates.

Recremen · August 2016

Eh, no strong feelings on it at this point. We'll recheck as time goes on.

Cinbri · August 2016

Leave Negate alone. After sorcs got love time to adress templars ultimates that are worst.

Daggerfall_Bones · August 2016

Eh we negate and get negated. Stay out of choke points and you'll be fine.

Daveheart · August 2016

My only real issue with negate in it's current form is more of a game performance issue. Negate (like many other abilities) doesn't always animate properly or give off its sound cue, so it's possible to get wiped to a negate that you never even see or hear. More consistent performance would allow for easier counterplay.