PvP: Skirmisher's Bite Build viable?

Wump · August 2016

Hey Guys,

I recently tried to build a PvP Bow Build that isn't focused on ganking. So I tried the following Set Up on my CP 531 Stamblade:

Sets:
5 Hundings
5 Skirmisher's Bite
all Medium, Impen, Stam Enchant

Bars:
Bow (Main bar)
Rearming Trap (to get Minor Force and the root to kite)
Poison Injection (strong Dot and Execute)
Shuffle (Dodge Chance and immunity to snare/root is essential to kite)
Vigor (self heal)
Relentl. Focus (Stam Reg. and hard hitting spectral bow)
ULT: Dawnbr. of Smiting (wpn dmg and stun)

DW ("Emergency Melee" Bar, do NOT want to switch to 2h for Momentum)
Ambush (Gap Closer)
Supr. Attack (Spam Skill, Major Fracture)
Killers Blade (strong Finisher)
Flying Blade (to get Major Brutality on 28m Range)
Mass Hysteria (Strong CC)
ULT: Incap. Strike (Melee Stun, Major Defile)

CP: This is quite uncertain, im switching and testing a lot. At the Moment I try something like that:
Red: even ~ 60 in each Elemental Def and Hardy to get "Unchained" Passive, 30 in Resistant to get "Phase" passive, few Points in Quick Recovery
Green: 100 in Tumbling to get dogde roll as cheap as possible, remaining CP in Moocalf and Warlord
Blue: 100 Bow expert, 20 in Shattering Blows to get "Tactician" Passive, remaining CP in Mighty

Gameplay Idea:
The Idea is to stay at range, buff myself with shuffle, rel. focus and flying blade. Then hit target with Poison Inj. and weave LA within. Roll to get the Skirmisher Procc and try to set the enemy off Balance. IF enemy IS off Balance, hit with Heavy Attack and Spectral Bow.
Always trying to Dance around my rearming trap, if enemy gap closes in, hit with Trap, Surprise Attack, Roll away and try to kite. Always try to get up the Skirmisher Procc.

I'm aware of the Problems of Bow Builds in PvP: While they are really strong in ganking they lack in prolonging fights. I don't like ganking too much, so I'm looking for a bow build that can be played in grp Settings for longer lasting fights. I would love to find a build that is a bit of a "dance with the enemy" and that would ideally require a bit of skill in moving and kiting.

Do you think this Kind of build could work? Does somebody have experiences to share?

tl; dr

1. A skirmisher bow build viable on stamblade?
2. Do you recommend to switch Rel. Focus for Shadow Image?
3. Are 120 CP in the Atronach to get "Tactician" wasted?
4. Any advice on gear/skill/CP appreciated!

Thank you alle guys!

psychotic13 · August 2016

Skirmisher and a bow do go well together cause you'll be dodge rolling for the major expedition anyway. I personally like to pair it with eternal hunt, but that may not be optimal if you want to stay at range.

I'd Probably lose hundings, I prefer Morag tong for PvP, you get 40 less damage and lose the crit (which isn't the most important thing in PvP with Impen) but it is only a 4pc so you could try and fit a monster set in

Shadow image may be useful as a bow build for repositioning, but I wouldn't sacrifice relentless focus, the minor beserk and Stam regen are great, plus if you're weaving in LA you get to shoot of the spectral bow every now and then which will also help a bow build.

sluice · August 2016

I run on my stam sorc:

5x Eternal Hunt (4x body + TH/Bow)
5x Skirmisher Bit (3x Jewelry, 2x body)
1x Molag Kena

I also tried this setup on my stamblade, I liked it.

1. A skirmisher bow build viable on stamblade?
Skirmisher is great for stamblade.. But I wouldn't use it a on a bow build.

2. Do you recommend to switch Rel. Focus for Shadow Image?
No, the spectral bow hits hard... and since you are probably doing a lot of light attack in between your poison injection, you should keep it on the same bar... If you want Shadow Image, find a place to slot it on your second bad.

3. Are 120 CP in the Atronach to get "Tactician" wasted?
Ugggh, no, don't do that!.. Make sure to put 100 into Mighty (We are talking about 25% increase damaged.. that's huge!)

100 into tumbling is too much.. even on my dodge roll setup, I never put more than 70 into tumbing..
If you dodge roll A LOT..get like 3x Well-fitted pieces, and 4x Impen.

4. Any advice on gear/skill/CP appreciated!
I wouldn't use Skirmisher bite with this setup..

I would use 5x Marksman instead of the 5x Skirmisher, like so probably
5x Marksman (3x Jewelry + 1x Body + Bow Sharpened)
5x Hunding (5x Body)
1x Molag Kena

I feel bow build are only great for ganking or playing in groups.
I would slot Snipe (either Morph...) So you can Snipe => Heavy Attack weave => Poison Injection for a big burst opener.
I would also slot Piercing Mark on my second bar, to put Major Fracture on distanced target.... It will also heal you and take care of cloaking nightblades.

I would slot Shadowy Disguise (to crit on command!) and possibly go with the Shadow Mundus...

I know you can use Flying Blade to get Major Brutality, but going 2H, would let you buff up from stealth... A huge plus, in my opinion. You could also use potions to get major brutality without using 2H or attacking your opponent.

PS: if you want to dance with the enemy like you said.. Bow build might not be the best choice...
Consider Magnum Shot to create distance between the enemy and you, or Bombard to slow/root them.

Going with a setup like I have (at the top), will let you dance with the enemy, a lot... But you can't/shouldn't focus only on Bow...

The other day, I was stuck in a 4v1 without my ulti ready.. so I layed down my caltrops + Arrow Barrage + Rearming trap and dodge roll a few times (to lay my Eternal Hunt Rune and dodge damage).. Believe it or not, but I killed 2 of them instantly, and finished to other 2 with a simple Reverse slice.

Wump · August 2016

Thank you for your Input, @psychotic13 and @sluice

I already thought about losing hundings and getting eternal hunt. Will give it a try. Problem with eternal hunt: It seems a bit counterintuitive to me, as the idea of the build is to stay at range. Eternal hunt 5pc works in melee range which I try to avoid. On the other Hand you could argue that eternal hunt punishes the enemy for closing in on me - not sure what to think about this, tbh.

sluice wrote: »

3. Are 120 CP in the Atronach to get "Tactician" wasted?
Ugggh, no, don't do that!.. Make sure to put 100 into Mighty (We are talking about 25% increase damaged.. that's huge!)

Yes, I see the Problem. My intent was to create a more "interesting" playstyle with the Tactician Passive. Setting Enemies off Balance and hitting them with heavy attacks (which get a huge dmg buff against off Balance Targets) --> stunning them seems interesting to me. The heavy attack gets further Bonus dmg because of bow expert, so I thought to give it a try.

sluice wrote: »

Consider Magnum Shot to create distance between the enemy and you, or Bombard to slow/root them.

Magnum Shot almost never seems to work for me reliably. Will propably try it again, but it's... dunno... clunky?

sluice · August 2016

@Wump,
I don't like Magnum shot either (except to shoot people off of bridge).
I was just saying to give you option since you want to primarly play the bow.

I would not use Eternal Hunt if you mainly wanted to play Bow.
Consider 5x Marksman.

(2 Items) Adds 129 Stamina Recovery

(3 Items) Adds 129 Stamina Recovery

(4 Items) Adds 129 Weapon Damage

(5 Items) Reduce the Stamina cost of abilities by 5% and increase the damage of your bow abilities against players by 8%.

I also wouldn't use Skirmisher for this setup because your goal shouldn't be to dodge roll, but to already be at a "safe" distance from the ennemi.. Therefore 5xHunding with 5x Marksman would work great. It's also why I suggested slotting Snipe with Piercing Mark and Shadowy Disguise.

Vicecanon could be interesting also.

By all means give a shot to tactician, but I would be extremely surprise if you managed better DPS than with 100 into Mighty. (Haven't done the Math though, I'll admit...)

Toc de Malsvi · August 2016

Draining Shot>Magnum Shot. The heal from DS is ridiculously effective can get as high as 8k+.
Marksman should be worn for any bow build the sustain + damage is way to high to ignore.
Bombard is less effective now since change, no longer roots snared targets, so not worth slotting.
Skirmisher is perfectly viable.

Toc de Malsvi · August 2016

sluice wrote: »

By all means give a shot to tactician, but I would be extremely surprise if you managed better DPS than with 100 into Mighty. (Haven't done the Math though, I'll admit...)

DPS would be lower for sure. However PVP is more about focused burst than DPS, executing a setup like the OP posted would be very very hard to consistently land but should have excellent burst.

Xeven · August 2016

Anyone who cant see the gap between magicka and stamina sets isn't looking. Not only that but, a magicka build couldn't even begin to dream of sustaining wearing something similar. Just sayin'.

WTB balance.

Brutusmax1mus · August 2016

They could if they used heavy attack weaves like almost all pure stam zero sustain builds do.

Wump · August 2016

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

DPS would be lower for sure. However PVP is more about focused burst than DPS, executing a setup like the OP posted would be very very hard to consistently land but should have excellent burst.

Yes, that was my reasoning. I mean, @sluice is definitely right mentioning the lower dps with CP in Bow Expert and I wont deny that. But I'd like to find a working build which ideally turns out to be not cookie cutter. To utilize the off Balance effect with heavy attacks could be something that isnt too common. I will give Marksman a shot in favour of hundings, but the wpn dmg of hundings maybe hard to loose.

Xeven wrote: »

Anyone who cant see the gap between magicka and stamina sets isn't looking. Not only that but, a magicka build couldn't even begin to dream of sustaining wearing something similar. Just sayin'.

WTB balance.

While I admit there are some balancing issues between stam and magicka, I dont think a Bow Build is exactly the definition of overpowered. In my view its more of a one trick Pony that only shines in the ganking role, which I try to avoid. So I'd appreciate if this thread could continue to serve as a debate regarding a Skirmisher Build. So any further input is appreciated as I think there a quite a few guys like me who would like to play an archer that can deliver more than the familiar (and a bit boring) ganking role.

sluice · August 2016

Xeven wrote: »

Anyone who cant see the gap between magicka and stamina sets isn't looking. Not only that but, a magicka build couldn't even begin to dream of sustaining wearing something similar. Just sayin'.

WTB balance.

Off topic, but yes, I agree.

Back to topic...

@Toc de Malsvi, Your initial burst counts for so much.. With Skirmisher you miss a whooping 418 weapon damage if you don't dodge roll... And dodge rolling before firing your bow, seems kind of counter-intuitive. Just my opinion though.

sluice · August 2016

Wump wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

DPS would be lower for sure. However PVP is more about focused burst than DPS, executing a setup like the OP posted would be very very hard to consistently land but should have excellent burst.

Yes, that was my reasoning. I mean, @sluice is definitely right mentioning the lower dps with CP in Bow Expert and I wont deny that. But I'd like to find a working build which ideally turns out to be not cookie cutter. To utilize the off Balance effect with heavy attacks could be something that isnt too common. I will give Marksman a shot in favour of hundings, but the wpn dmg of hundings maybe hard to loose.

That's why, I was suggesting
5x Hundings (5x Body)
5x Marskman (3x Jewelry + 1x body + 1x Bow)
1x Molag or Bloodspawn (1x Head/Shoulder)

For your DW, you could use 2x Leki or whaterver.

Wump · August 2016

sluice wrote: »

And dodge rolling before firing your bow, seems kind of counter-intuitive. Just my opinion though.

Yes, I admit its a bit strange...

At the moment my opening looks like:

1. hitting enemy with flying blade to get Maj. Brutality
2. Roll (which gives defense for a moment and hopefully sets enemy off balance) to get the Skirmisher Procc, immediately followed by
3. heavy attack --> cancelled with Poison Injection
4. Go on hitting with Light Attacks to procc Spectral Bow
5. Roll and Heavy Attack again--> cancelled with Spectral Bow

Of course: execution is tricky and I'm the first to admit that this doesnt work everytime. But will try Marksman when I'm out of the Office.

Lexxypwns · August 2016

You should switch hundings for Alchemist for maximum burst.

5 Alchemist (3armor + dw)
5 Skirmisher (2 armor + 3 jewelry)
2 Kena
Master's bow.

You'll be around 7k weapon damage, making your bow hit like a truck. Light attack Medium attack - poison injection - ambush - incap will just barely fit into your burst window but its gonna hit like a truck. Same with your spectral bow, I'd expect 18-20k pvp crits during your burst window. Bonus points if you can fit shadow stone into your build.

Don't drop relentless focus, you'll want minor berserk. The people saying crit isn't important for pvp are drunk, if you want burst damage you need crit chance and damage.

100 points in mighty is a waste as well, I'd recommend about 80 then stacking precise strikes. You'll be much more efficient with your CP that way and squeeze out maximum possible burst.

sluice · August 2016

Wump wrote: »

sluice wrote: »

And dodge rolling before firing your bow, seems kind of counter-intuitive. Just my opinion though.

Yes, I admit its a bit strange...

At the moment my opening looks like:

1. hitting enemy with flying blade to get Maj. Brutality
2. Roll (which gives defense for a moment and hopefully sets enemy off balance) to get the Skirmisher Procc, immediately followed by
3. heavy attack --> cancelled with Poison Injection
4. Go on hitting with Light Attacks to procc Spectral Bow
5. Roll and Heavy Attack again--> cancelled with Spectral Bow

Of course: execution is tricky and I'm the first to admit that this doesnt work everytime. But will try Marksman when I'm out of the Office.

1. hitting enemy with flying blade to get Maj. Brutality
The problem I see with this is, a decent player won't just stand there. He will most probably get behind cover, dodge roll or put shield up right after you hit them with Flying Blade.

This will make the following hits hard to... hit! lol

4. Go on hitting with Light Attacks to procc Spectral Bow
I would cancel every light attack with a poison Injection to be honest.
It's going to hit just as fast and will do much more damage.

Think of your spectral Bow as your execute.

But imagine if you already had Major Brutality pre fight (Momentum or Potions)... you could start with
Snipe => Heavy Attack (same time) => Poison Injection. (It would feel like all 3 are hitting at at the same time).

Then, spam: light attack => Poison Inject (until Spectral Bow as proc)

Clever Alchemist, as mentionned by @Lexxypwns could help in providing huge opening damage.

psychotic13 · August 2016

Wump wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

DPS would be lower for sure. However PVP is more about focused burst than DPS, executing a setup like the OP posted would be very very hard to consistently land but should have excellent burst.

Yes, that was my reasoning. I mean, @sluice is definitely right mentioning the lower dps with CP in Bow Expert and I wont deny that. But I'd like to find a working build which ideally turns out to be not cookie cutter. To utilize the off Balance effect with heavy attacks could be something that isnt too common. I will give Marksman a shot in favour of hundings, but the wpn dmg of hundings maybe hard to loose.

Xeven wrote: »

Anyone who cant see the gap between magicka and stamina sets isn't looking. Not only that but, a magicka build couldn't even begin to dream of sustaining wearing something similar. Just sayin'.

WTB balance.

While I admit there are some balancing issues between stam and magicka, I dont think a Bow Build is exactly the definition of overpowered. In my view its more of a one trick Pony that only shines in the ganking role, which I try to avoid. So I'd appreciate if this thread could continue to serve as a debate regarding a Skirmisher Build. So any further input is appreciated as I think there a quite a few guys like me who would like to play an archer that can deliver more than the familiar (and a bit boring) ganking role.

iirc, the 8% damage boost to skills is greater than hundings weapon damage. Someone posted the math behind it before, but it does only effect the bow skills.

sluice · August 2016

@psychotic13, Marksman is simply a must for any bow build, me think!

cschwingeb14_ESO · August 2016

Why have flying blade when you have poison injection? You are working too hard to avoid using 2h, since you are already using all NB attacks. Just go 2h, replace flying blade with Rally or forward momentum.

You can now initiate combat with better options than flying blade, which is much better than the extra set bonus DW is giving you

sluice · August 2016

cschwingeb14_ESO wrote: »

Why have flying blade when you have poison injection? You are working too hard to avoid using 2h, since you are already using all NB attacks. Just go 2h, replace flying blade with Rally or forward momentum.

You can now initiate combat with better options than flying blade, which is much better than the extra set bonus DW is giving you

He needs flying blade if he's not going to use Momentum from 2H or potions to get Major Brutality.

Toc de Malsvi · August 2016

psychotic13 wrote: »

iirc, the 8% damage boost to skills is greater than hundings weapon damage. Someone posted the math behind it before, but it does only effect the bow skills.

Just to clarify, Marksman 8% damage does effect bow light and heavy attacks as well as skills. Although only the cost reduction buffs other attacks

Wump wrote: »

Yes, that was my reasoning. I mean, @sluice is definitely right mentioning the lower dps with CP in Bow Expert and I wont deny that. But I'd like to find a working build which ideally turns out to be not cookie cutter. To utilize the off Balance effect with heavy attacks could be something that isnt too common. I will give Marksman a shot in favour of hundings, but the wpn dmg of hundings maybe hard to loose.

the weapon damage loss only effects your non bow attacks.

sluice wrote: »

@Toc de Malsvi, Your initial burst counts for so much.. With Skirmisher you miss a whooping 418 weapon damage if you don't dodge roll... And dodge rolling before firing your bow, seems kind of counter-intuitive. Just my opinion though.

Only to a point. provided you are actually relatively out of sight of your target there is nothing stopping you from roll-dodging while stealthed and waiting the 1 second for the stealth to reactivate.

acw37162 · August 2016

Wump wrote: »

Thank you for your Input, @psychotic13 and @sluice

I already thought about losing hundings and getting eternal hunt. Will give it a try. Problem with eternal hunt: It seems a bit counterintuitive to me, as the idea of the build is to stay at range. Eternal hunt 5pc works in melee range which I try to avoid. On the other Hand you could argue that eternal hunt punishes the enemy for closing in on me - not sure what to think about this, tbh.

sluice wrote: »

3. Are 120 CP in the Atronach to get "Tactician" wasted?
Ugggh, no, don't do that!.. Make sure to put 100 into Mighty (We are talking about 25% increase damaged.. that's huge!)

One of the most effective ways to use Eternal Hunt is up close.

Dodge then fight in your rune.

Or fight up close and dodge roll cancel all your instant attacks right on top of the enemy Incap Strike, surprise attack, and dawn breaker are all dodge roll cancel-able it's and extra 3 - 8 K PVP damage depending on your build

VincentBlanquin · August 2016

interesting thread. i run archer in cyrodiil for eternity, but its not viable because lack of utility. Archer community begging for longer range at scatter shot at least, but wrobel fail to deliver even this little one ....

it should make a real difference for archers

i run skirmisher bite and marksman sets and they do fine in my opinion, although when i spot a player, i buff myself first, then rolldodge into firing position (for skirm buff) and then starting to fire (still i am at sneak)

Brutusmax1mus · August 2016

I tried a marksman hawk eye build. Was fun, didn't need any sustain besides marksman set bonus.

It's a pretty balanced set up. The 2 sets together grant 2x max Stam, 2x stam regen, 2x weapon damage. Great cost reduction to bow skills, and the two damage buff to bow skills if in pvp. Your weapon damage seems low but you still can hit hard. The build lacked a lot of crit chance though. Mundus and evil hunter.

It's a great zerg build bc you can cast your two aoes at will and not worry about stamina at all.

Was fun feeling kind of like a pure archer.

Downside: weak self heals, not a small scale or 1v1 build at all. In pve you really really feel that crit chance loss.

Wump · August 2016

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

I tried a marksman hawk eye build. Was fun, didn't need any sustain besides marksman set bonus.

It's a pretty balanced set up. The 2 sets together grant 2x max Stam, 2x stam regen, 2x weapon damage. Great cost reduction to bow skills, and the two damage buff to bow skills if in pvp. Your weapon damage seems low but you still can hit hard. The build lacked a lot of crit chance though. Mundus and evil hunter.

Hm, not sure about the Marksman + Hawk Eye build. In the end I only run with one Bow Skill (Poison Injection) so I'm not fully convinced if the combined dmg-boost for bow skills is really worth it? As I said: my reasoning was to utilize the combination of dodge roll and skirmisher. because lets look what you get of it:

1. Strong (or: annoying, if you are the enemy) defense bc of dodge rolling
2. Skirmisher wpn dmg and crit procc which is huge
3. Setting enemy off Balance (tactician passive)
4. utilizing the dmg boost bc of bow expert CP Points

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Just to clarify, Marksman 8% damage does effect bow light and heavy attacks as well as skills. Although only the cost reduction buffs other attacks

But I admit: this made me thinking again. Didn't have the time to test this (busy rl), is this for sure? If the 5pc Marksman (Hawk Eye too?) really works on light/heavy-attack bow-dmg it might be worth to rethink all the stuff.

Wump · August 2016

VincentBlanquin wrote: »

interesting thread. i run archer in cyrodiil for eternity, but its not viable because lack of utility. Archer community begging for longer range at scatter shot at least, but wrobel fail to deliver even this little one ....

Yeah, it's really frustrating: Trying to Play Stamblade as an Archer, investing in gear, set up and so on and getting mediocre results. Then playing melee Stamblade and simply destroying enemies by ambush-SA Spam...