The Divide of PVE and PVP is Killing ESO

Bromburak · August 2016

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

I'm still seeing nerf Radiant Destruction threads, even though it's an entirely new update gone live. Have all of you people who've been asking for its nerfs ever considered that there's more than just PVP'ers who play this game, and that PVE exists too? Please stop being so inconsiderate and view things from multiple perspectives, and not just your own.

And have you considered that it's not the players fault when ZOS doesn't differ between PvE and PvP?
Welcome to MMOs where changes will always have impact on balancing.

I'm tired of seeing "solid" skills get nerfed, all because the PVP crowd threw a temper tantrum about skills and mechanics. Y'all have gotten: Shields/Wards nerfed, Wrecking Blow nerfed, Cloak nerfed, DK Flappers nerfed, Bolt Escape nerfed, and so many other things nerfed. You even got blocking nerfed, regardless of the developers claiming it was due to PVE that brought about those changes. Not 1 person in PVE complained about tanks in dungeons and trials blocking too much. Not 1. But, was there complaints about "Block-Knights" all over threads from a PVP perspective? You bet! It's horrible.

And I'm tired of people that blame players for evaluations and decisions made by Developers ...

And the list goes on and on. We as the player base can pretend that there is no legitimate issue at hand with this divide, or even that this divide doesn't exist. But, it's becoming more and more clear. What ZOS should do is have skills behave 1 way in PVP, and completrly differently in PVE. That way the 2 crowds can be kept happy. What ZOS should do, is view things from a full perspective.

Says the guy who excludes PvP players at the same time just because their feedback doesn't match his opinions.

Ghost-Shot · August 2016

Ethromelb14_ESO wrote: »

I hate PvP. It's pointless and monotonous. And every PvE based MMO it's included in, it has slowly destroyed, unless isolated to it's proverbial box off in the corner somewhere.

PvP is always broken, no matter what MMO it's in. Pit two exceptionally well built players against each other and watch a very long and boring fight where no one dies, because they can max heal their wounds, or create characters with health bars that don't move, block all day, run away all day, stealth all day. Or wear cheesy armor that just detonates everyone in the proximity without any real display of skill, because the armor does all the work for them.

Unless the PvP feature is going to actually function on an iota of swordsmanship or strategic play, it has no proper place in an MMO. When it starts working like Ni-oh, then I'll support it. Because then the skill will more so be coming from the player and not the set armor. This is the poor design that has everyone flocking to the same damn armor set. For all intents and purpose, a wear-to-win game.

In this game there is a strong dependency on heals because it is close to impossible (based on the majority) to enter combat and not be hit once, just because your fighting prowess is just that good. And those same mechanics translated to player versus player creates a horrible experience.

Just like the exclusive armor, PvP needs it's own set of powers to choose from, that can not be used in PvE.

PVP is monotonous? Please explain how killing the same bosses over and over again is not boring and monotonous?

CromulentForumID · August 2016

Defilted wrote: »

Zos needs to separate skills and their uses when you load into PVP. All changes must be separate in order to achieve balance in both PVE and PVP. Other MMOs have learned this. We just need to wait for ZOS to realize it as well.

It is the way things should have been done from the beginning, but at this point, I would wonder if it was even possible to reasonably do.

You would have to program a check into every power to determine if the player was in a PVP zone/context, then call on different power definitions for that context, then maybe even different effects, etc.. And this is I am sure a vast simplification that already looks like a lot of work.

You would risk breaking every power in the game when you started to do this.

If the devs cannot not spare the resources to fix the powers that break, you can't even attempt to start the project that separates the two game modes.

phairdon · August 2016

Agree to some extent. Lot of skill nerfs are due to the alliance war, whether justified or not. Watch streamers & read the comments on their streams, gives good incite in player thinking. At least three are overly obsessed with radiant destruction deaths, to the point where you see a death recap & jbeam is only a small percentage of what killed the player. Templars are popular at the moment. Question is are they any more popular than say stamina sorcerers? Which often appear to be flavor of the month and are more than capable of taking out enemy players with a couple of blows in the hands of skilled players.
When a class becomes popular, obviously a much higher chance of being killed by one or more of their skill set, as more players are running the said class. Often come to the conclusion, this is more about players becoming wild over dying in the alliance war, rather than the skill or skills they died by.
After radiant destruction is nerfed, another set of discussions will appear, about another skill line being over powered, as the cycle never seems to end.

TequilaFire · August 2016

I agree it is all about being overly sensitive to being killed by someone in PvP.
Because it is caused by another person rather than an NPC some people's egos just can't handle that.
Once you realize that a PvP death is no big deal as even the best get killed you will enjoy yourself much more and look for ways to improve and stop crying about op skills.

Ampnode · August 2016

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

PVP is monotonous? Please explain how killing the same bosses over and over again is not boring and monotonous?

Dude, you get to IMMERSE yourself in that dungeon. Like, as if you're the one fighting that boss. Classic RP 101, bro.
/s

Jaronking · August 2016

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

Ethromelb14_ESO wrote: »

I hate PvP. It's pointless and monotonous. And every PvE based MMO it's included in, it has slowly destroyed, unless isolated to it's proverbial box off in the corner somewhere.

PvP is always broken, no matter what MMO it's in. Pit two exceptionally well built players against each other and watch a very long and boring fight where no one dies, because they can max heal their wounds, or create characters with health bars that don't move, block all day, run away all day, stealth all day. Or wear cheesy armor that just detonates everyone in the proximity without any real display of skill, because the armor does all the work for them.

Unless the PvP feature is going to actually function on an iota of swordsmanship or strategic play, it has no proper place in an MMO. When it starts working like Ni-oh, then I'll support it. Because then the skill will more so be coming from the player and not the set armor. This is the poor design that has everyone flocking to the same damn armor set. For all intents and purpose, a wear-to-win game.

In this game there is a strong dependency on heals because it is close to impossible (based on the majority) to enter combat and not be hit once, just because your fighting prowess is just that good. And those same mechanics translated to player versus player creates a horrible experience.

Just like the exclusive armor, PvP needs it's own set of powers to choose from, that can not be used in PvE.

PVP is monotonous? Please explain how killing the same bosses over and over again is not boring and monotonous?

Lol because that boss won't kill him and ruin is image that's he the best in the world.

magnusthorek · August 2016

I agree 100% specially with the Imperial City part. I can't do the story line, I can't kill the big bosses, I can't even hunt for lorebooks because it's a risk get ganked and have to run all the way again and again and again.

When I thought things would chill out for a while, ZOS brings the District capture mechanism which brought a lot of PvP'ers, casuals or not, just for the sake to capture them and receive a puny amount of AP for that.

ZOS needs a SERIOUS restructuring, from its very foundation. One thing is one thing, another thing is another thing.

Nestor · August 2016

Separating PvE combat/defence skills from PvP combat/defence skills is needed in this game. And, not just Alliance Skills.

phairdon · August 2016

Nestor wrote: »

Separating PvE skills from PvP skills is needed in this game. And, not just Alliance Skills, all skills.

This.

THEDKEXPERIENCE · August 2016

magnusthorek wrote: »

I agree 100% specially with the Imperial City part. I can't do the story line, I can't kill the big bosses, I can't even hunt for lorebooks because it's a risk get ganked and have to run all the way again and again and again.

You can't? If you have 200 CP then I get it. If you have 500+ then ... well ... L2P.

Even if you die in the IC the spawn points are like 20 feet away. You're really just not even trying.

Rohamad_Ali · August 2016

Blade of Souls has open world PvP and you see a much better balance in the classes as the two are only separated by opt in uniform system . The communities are not so divided there . Here zoned PvP is a dividing wall between community needs . One is just as important as the other imo .

Doctordarkspawn · August 2016

Lieblingsjunge wrote: »

There is no divide, imo.
As you mentioned, IC: It is a way for PvE-players to get to know PvP. It's nothing about forcing someone to PvP, it's about making it so that the game's aspects are brought together. So your argument about IC is invalid.
Undaunted Vendor: It's in the base of Cyrodiil, also a way for the PvE-players to port into Cyrodiil.

But let me remind you:
Widowmaker, Amberplasm, Gossamer etc. are all beneficial for PvP, but PvP'ers are still forced to PvE to farm it. So that's one way ZoS brings the PvP-players into PvE. I mean, we can't buy Amberplasm in the Guild Store, so it have to be farmed. Spell Power Cure is also beneficial for PvP-groups, but it's required to farm WGT. Winterborn is also good for PvP > required to farm vMA to get it.

Leki's is a nice 2-pc set, but you have to be in PvP to get it - or buy it.

There is no divide. You're just finding exkuses not to explore the entire game the game.

There is a total divide.

There are skills that everyone who dont like PVP as an activity have to do PVP for because not having them cuts your effectiveness drastically, like Magicka detonation or Vigor.

There are people who do undaunted pledges over and over, no because they -want- to, but because they have to for the undaunted passives.

I personally despise PVP unless the game is specifically designed it. I've spent enough time in Cyrodill and died to too many zergs with no hope of ever defeating them to know PVP is not the aspect of the game I enjoy. Get -over- yourself, please.

Lettigall · August 2016

PvP players want balance, PvE players want faster to kill the boss.

Doctordarkspawn · August 2016

Are there people who flit between PVE and PVP? Oh yes, there are tons. But even the ones I have personally spoken to dont understand why people throw in PVE and PVP into the same boat.

Nobody -goes- to the imperial city anymore, nobody goes there because it's gonna be the same damn problem questing in Cyro is. Your gonna meet actuall pvpers, get the crap kicked out of you, learn -nothing- because they could have died because of thousands of things (IE, Poor tactics, lack of sustain, they used poisons) ect ect and they never go there again.

At the same time, people still go there and repair the walls and are generally called active scum by the PVP playerbase because all they want, is proxy det or Vigor. That's all. They dont wanna be there, they dont like it anymore than they do, but if they dont have proxy det or Vigor their handicaping themselves unneccesarily.

If PVP and PVE could finally be seperate entities, then quite frankly ZOS could raise each classes self healing capabilities to make Vigor unneccesary for them, and we wouldn't have this problem. But for some insane reason we all seem to be lumped together because....raisens?

It makes no sense. More power to the people who want both, but there needs to be a clear wall here.

Doctordarkspawn · August 2016

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

Ethromelb14_ESO wrote: »

I hate PvP. It's pointless and monotonous. And every PvE based MMO it's included in, it has slowly destroyed, unless isolated to it's proverbial box off in the corner somewhere.

PvP is always broken, no matter what MMO it's in. Pit two exceptionally well built players against each other and watch a very long and boring fight where no one dies, because they can max heal their wounds, or create characters with health bars that don't move, block all day, run away all day, stealth all day. Or wear cheesy armor that just detonates everyone in the proximity without any real display of skill, because the armor does all the work for them.

Unless the PvP feature is going to actually function on an iota of swordsmanship or strategic play, it has no proper place in an MMO. When it starts working like Ni-oh, then I'll support it. Because then the skill will more so be coming from the player and not the set armor. This is the poor design that has everyone flocking to the same damn armor set. For all intents and purpose, a wear-to-win game.

In this game there is a strong dependency on heals because it is close to impossible (based on the majority) to enter combat and not be hit once, just because your fighting prowess is just that good. And those same mechanics translated to player versus player creates a horrible experience.

Just like the exclusive armor, PvP needs it's own set of powers to choose from, that can not be used in PvE.

PVP is monotonous? Please explain how killing the same bosses over and over again is not boring and monotonous?

Dying to a zerg with no experience is guarenteed.

A bossfight with a crap healer and maybe some interesting builds could end with you carrying the team. PVE groups are worse RNG than ZOS could ever create, and that's why I pug.

clayandaudrey_ESO · August 2016

All I got out of the OP is another ESO is dying argument.

Doctordarkspawn · August 2016

clayandaudrey_ESO wrote: »

All I got out of the OP is another ESO is dying argument.

All I got out of it was the same thing I've been saying, and that many others, PVE and PVP both have said, and will never happen.

Eventually one side or another, I know where I place my money on that one, will grow uncivil and the thread will be closed in order to keep the combat lead from seeing things that dont agree with his design. S'just how it goes.

Lylith · August 2016

phairdon wrote: »

Agree to some extent. Lot of skill nerfs are due to the alliance war, whether justified or not. Watch streamers & read the comments on their streams, gives good incite in player thinking. At least three are overly obsessed with radiant destruction deaths, to the point where you see a death recap & jbeam is only a small percentage of what killed the player. Templars are popular at the moment. Question is are they any more popular than say stamina sorcerers? Which often appear to be flavor of the month and are more than capable of taking out enemy players with a couple of blows in the hands of skilled players.
When a class becomes popular, obviously a much higher chance of being killed by one or more of their skill set, as more players are running the said class. Often come to the conclusion, this is more about players becoming wild over dying in the alliance war, rather than the skill or skills they died by.
After radiant destruction is nerfed, another set of discussions will appear, about another skill line being over powered, as the cycle never seems to end.

spot on.

after rd is nerfed AGAIN, along with whatever other templar skills seem to create the most irritation for the cool kids, they'll find something else to point at and whine and cry about.

Kalante · August 2016

Mobs can't complain. They don't exist. They don't care that they are getting owned a million times in a row. PVP in the other hand you are fighting people with real feelings.

Doctordarkspawn · August 2016

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Blade of Souls has open world PvP and you see a much better balance in the classes as the two are only separated by opt in uniform system . The communities are not so divided there . Here zoned PvP is a dividing wall between community needs . One is just as important as the other imo .

Blade of souls is also designed around traditional classes with set abilities correct?

Bobby_V_Rockit · August 2016

I enjoy co-operative play... Couldnt get into the Imperial City though, too many gankers, but thats up to them, plenty more game to play

GrumpyDuckling · August 2016

The PVE side of me hates PVP because this game would be so much more fun without class restrictions, and I think they're largely in the game due to PVP "balance."

The PVP side of me hates PVE because ZOS spends so much time on DLCs that hardly improve upon PVP. We have such a cool Cyrodiil base map, but it's just so empty and boring.

Rohamad_Ali · August 2016

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Blade of Souls has open world PvP and you see a much better balance in the classes as the two are only separated by opt in uniform system . The communities are not so divided there . Here zoned PvP is a dividing wall between community needs . One is just as important as the other imo .

Blade of souls is also designed around traditional classes with set abilities correct?

Yes

Doctordarkspawn · August 2016

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Blade of Souls has open world PvP and you see a much better balance in the classes as the two are only separated by opt in uniform system . The communities are not so divided there . Here zoned PvP is a dividing wall between community needs . One is just as important as the other imo .

Blade of souls is also designed around traditional classes with set abilities correct?

Yes

Then A, it has a better base to work off, and B, it's nearly useless as a comparison.

The entire problem with ESO's nonseperation is that there are no set classes, everyone is working from the same draw pool, exept for class abilities, that pool are activity locked.

Quite frankly It'd fix alot of ESO's problems if it just gave classes rigid abilities but ESO dosent wanna do that, so the problem is exaserbated.

Doctordarkspawn · August 2016

Honestly, you wanna know what would be -fine-?

CP cashing.

Cash in a ammount of experience and set yourself back by a bit in order to -keep- abilities unlocked on all characters.

Nonapplicable to class abilities and it would only count toward guild passives and alliance war passives.

Ch4mpTW · August 2016

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Honestly, you wanna know what would be -fine-?

CP cashing.

Cash in a ammount of experience and set yourself back by a bit in order to -keep- abilities unlocked on all characters.

Nonapplicable to class abilities and it would only count toward guild passives and alliance war passives.

That sounds pretty interesting. Further elaborate for me. o.o

Doctordarkspawn · August 2016

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Honestly, you wanna know what would be -fine-?

CP cashing.

Cash in a ammount of experience and set yourself back by a bit in order to -keep- abilities unlocked on all characters.

Nonapplicable to class abilities and it would only count toward guild passives and alliance war passives.

That sounds pretty interesting. Further elaborate for me. o.o

You have max CP rank.

You sacrifice maybe 20 CP to keep Vigor unlocked and have to get that CP all over again.

Seeing as CP is an account wide unlock, I dont see why we cant put certain skills outside of class skills (As not to absolutely murder progression with a sledge hammer) on that same level and have it still cost something, in this case time.

The values are subject to change, I have no doubt ZOS would probably make it higher so they could sell a auto ability unlock token or something but quite frankly?

Twenty bucks, fourty, or sixty for Vigor, Magicka det, or Caltrops, for the exchange of never having to set foot in PVP ever again, would. Be. Worth. every. Red. Cent. But I doubt it would ever happen because tieing money to ballance is baaaaaaad.

Rohamad_Ali · August 2016

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Blade of Souls has open world PvP and you see a much better balance in the classes as the two are only separated by opt in uniform system . The communities are not so divided there . Here zoned PvP is a dividing wall between community needs . One is just as important as the other imo .

Blade of souls is also designed around traditional classes with set abilities correct?

Yes

Then A, it has a better base to work off, and B, it's nearly useless as a comparison.

The entire problem with ESO's nonseperation is that there are no set classes, everyone is working from the same draw pool, exept for class abilities, that pool are activity locked.

Quite frankly It'd fix alot of ESO's problems if it just gave classes rigid abilities but ESO dosent wanna do that, so the problem is exaserbated.

I know it's not comparable system but was just saying Blade of Souls had both communities in mind when creating so no real separation of PvE and PvE players or abilities . The two groups get along better there was all . ESO is a system on top of a system wrapped in another system and balance for PvE and PvP are near impossibility .

Doctordarkspawn · August 2016

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Blade of Souls has open world PvP and you see a much better balance in the classes as the two are only separated by opt in uniform system . The communities are not so divided there . Here zoned PvP is a dividing wall between community needs . One is just as important as the other imo .

Blade of souls is also designed around traditional classes with set abilities correct?

Yes

Then A, it has a better base to work off, and B, it's nearly useless as a comparison.

The entire problem with ESO's nonseperation is that there are no set classes, everyone is working from the same draw pool, exept for class abilities, that pool are activity locked.

Quite frankly It'd fix alot of ESO's problems if it just gave classes rigid abilities but ESO dosent wanna do that, so the problem is exaserbated.

I know it's not comparable system but was just saying Blade of Souls had both communities in mind when creating so no real separation of PvE and PvE players or abilities . The two groups get along better there was all . ESO is a system on top of a system wrapped in another system and balance for PvE and PvP are near impossibility .

Yep. Basicly. Y''hit the nail on the head. Sorry for the misunderstandings.