Like a Circle in a Spiral - Like a Wheel within a Wheel - Player Segragation

carljokl · August 2016

I am not intending for this to be a rant. I am hoping to gain some understanding and perspective in the decisions taken about segregation.

Divisions within divisions within divisions - A feint within a feint within a feint.

I do to a degree understand that the likes of XBox Live and PlayStation network desire to have their walled garden player experiences where players on their platform engage with other players on their platform through their social tools.

I can also understand that from a plot perspective, if a character is aligned to a given alliance then it makes sense that it can only play campaigns for that alliance.
The ability to have alternative characters on the same account who in turn can be spread over different alliances. This allows a player to be able to be involved in more than one alliance. That seems reasonable.

Then we get to servers. Having built up all my characters on one server, what happens if I ever try to switch to another server? I found out this weekend when I was having problems with dropping out of my normal server. Everything seems to be bound to one server with no replication. Not just the characters but all the purchases and everything locked away to a specific Platform / Server combination.

It may be that from a technical standpoint it becomes costly to replicate data or perhaps there is a performance impact. Maybe there are implications of EU rules about the export of data of its citizens. (Ironically my normal server is North America).

It may raise questions of who owns what. The multiplayer network / social side may be owned by the console vendor. However what about the basic information about the characters and purchases? Do Microsoft / Sony also provide the profile storage platform?

It becomes a shame if I have real life friends who play ESO but I cannot play with them because we are on different platforms. It is not possible to mitigate this by having my profile be able to roam between platforms so that I can use PC / Mac ESO for playing against any friends that play ESO on that platform? Even just when I am away from home it would be nice to be able to still have access to my profile from my laptop but have the more powerful PS4 to play on when at home. I suppose if I had gone down the PC route I could own a beefy desktop for home and have the laptop for portability and would have scope for switching because it is still within the remit of the same platform.

When the console versions of ESO launched, a limited window was opened that players could transfer their profile. It was a one off one way deal though. If data gets owned by Microsoft / Sony thereafter it might explain why characters cannot move back and forth.

Typically having multiple servers is used to help with load balancing. I don't know if it is typical for a profile to be bound to that server instance ever after.

I hope there are those who can enlighten me with the reasoning to segregate profiles down to this level.

Cously · August 2016

I believe they think wouldn't be fair players of different platforms play on same server. For instance, PVP, there is no way a console player can compete with a PC players on equal grounds. Not only we from PC are infinetely superior, our hardwares alone make consoles look like frightened children in their cases, the fact we are the chosen race, and...in short, console players wouldn't have a chance.

Despite that I believe a lot of the segregation occurs because Sony and MS are in the way. About the transfers, I'm really surprised they aren't monetizing on it yet, we've seem it can be done at least from PC to Console. I do hope they monetize on it in the future, not only it will bring revenue to the game but will offer a chance for peasants to see the light and return to the promised land.

carljokl · August 2016

Sure but the advantages are negated if you have to play with players on the same platform. This doesn't have to inherently bind a profile to a given platform. Unless the platform vendors own the profile data as well.

It is a shame because I was strictly PC for years. It isn't so bad with plentiful space and money. It is a shame that building a gaming rig typically costs more money and takes up more space than a console. The PC has the potential to achieve the most powerful tailored experience.

Then there is splitting between servers. It looks like I can have a profile on the other server but then my purchases and subscriptions and time invested in characters are not portable.

It is not like I expect anything will change but some perspective wold be nice.

Mortehl · August 2016

The problem with transfers is that the console networks don't want to make it easy for you to leave. It should be an expensive option in the crown store. That'd fix this.

I am -strongly- considering moving back to PC gaming personally because the casual attitude on the console is driving me insane. Trying to run a trials guild on PS4 is like herding kittens and I'm about to just say screw it.

carljokl · August 2016

It is interesting how the attitude of players can vary so much from platform to platform.

I stayed a PC gamer for years because the console experience seemed dumbed down by comparison. These days the consoles are so much like PC aside from using game controllers. The same games are typically published across platforms. Map the game play to the given controller. The PC tends to have a little edge because of access to things like the console where applicable and mods / add-ons.

When it comes to the profiles though, being a programmer I just see my characters and purchases as a collection of values in a database. Technically easily portable back and forth between platforms. In practice the platforms are busy trying to lock you in.

If I knew what I know now before I started I may well have gone with the PC edition. Now I have invested quite a lot of time and money...it is hard to walk away from that. Hindsight is always 20/20.

I could create another character on the PC just to play with PC players / friends but I would not want to have another ESO plus subscription to pay.

TequilaFire · August 2016

Cously wrote: »

I believe they think wouldn't be fair players of different platforms play on same server. For instance, PVP, there is no way a console player can compete with a PC players on equal grounds. Not only we from PC are infinetely superior, our hardwares alone make consoles look like frightened children in their cases, the fact we are the chosen race, and...in short, console players wouldn't have a chance.

Despite that I believe a lot of the segregation occurs because Sony and MS are in the way. About the transfers, I'm really surprised they aren't monetizing on it yet, we've seem it can be done at least from PC to Console. I do hope they monetize on it in the future, not only it will bring revenue to the game but will offer a chance for peasants to see the light and return to the promised land.

#bitestongue

idk · August 2016

Read 4 paragraphs and no idea what OP is trying to say. Gave up since the post seems more about drama than any real reason to creat a thread.

carljokl · August 2016

TequilaFire wrote: »

Cously wrote: »

There is no way a console player can compete with a PC players on equal grounds. Not only we from PC are infinitely superior, our hardwares alone make consoles look like frightened children in their cases, the fact we are the chosen race, and...in short, console players wouldn't have a chance.

#bitestongue

...I sense a strong Aldmeri Dominion, Aldmer/Altmer/Atherian vibe from this stance for some reason...

carljokl · August 2016

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Read 4 paragraphs and no idea what OP is trying to say. Gave up since the post seems more about drama than any real reason to create a thread.

I could try and condense it if that is the impression given. I can be over verbose.

...Well scratch that, It doesn't look like I can edit the first post...

Maybe you are right if you feel it wasn't worth starting a thread. The segregation has been complained about before. I didn't want to get into a big rant. I hoped I might at least establish why it is the way it is. So far it seems more about the relative strength of playing on given platforms. I don't know if Zenomax released any clarification of why it is segregated the way it is? Maybe I would have been better searching for that rather than posting the question in a thread if it bothers people.

carljokl · August 2016

Well so far I found this:

http://www.polygon.com/2013/6/12/4421490/the-elder-scrolls-online-segregate-pc-xbox-one-and-ps4-players

This confirms the idea of the differences in interaction meaning that the console players are not playing against PC players.
I would expect that the desires of Microsoft and Sony would factor into it.

I cannot find anything so far about why profiles are separate depending on playing on NA or EU. Totally separate and no interaction between the two. I can find information on the "what" but not the "why" of that decision.

Still if this thread doesn't warrant having been created the Zenomax moderators can feel free to delete it with my blessing.

Egonieser · August 2016

Cously wrote: »

I believe they think wouldn't be fair players of different platforms play on same server. For instance, PVP, there is no way a console player can compete with a PC players on equal grounds. Not only we from PC are infinetely superior, our hardwares alone make consoles look like frightened children in their cases, the fact we are the chosen race, and...in short, console players wouldn't have a chance.

Despite that I believe a lot of the segregation occurs because Sony and MS are in the way. About the transfers, I'm really surprised they aren't monetizing on it yet, we've seem it can be done at least from PC to Console. I do hope they monetize on it in the future, not only it will bring revenue to the game but will offer a chance for peasants to see the light and return to the promised land.

I don't usually support or agree with console vs PC posts, but the wording here made me chuckle, kudos for that xD

idk · August 2016

Zos has said before no server transfers beyond what was offered to PC at launch for when consoles were launched.

This is a topic rarely discussed in the forums and probably if little interest overall. It would also cost a hefty sum of crown if offered and as such would be cost prohibitive to most.

carljokl · August 2016

Well if is a topic of little / no interest I would just delete the thread but I cannot. Perhaps a moderator will.

drakhan2002_ESO · August 2016

carljokl wrote: »

It is interesting how the attitude of players can vary so much from platform to platform.

I stayed a PC gamer for years because the console experience seemed dumbed down by comparison. These days the consoles are so much like PC aside from using game controllers. The same games are typically published across platforms. Map the game play to the given controller. The PC tends to have a little edge because of access to things like the console where applicable and mods / add-ons.

When it comes to the profiles though, being a programmer I just see my characters and purchases as a collection of values in a database. Technically easily portable back and forth between platforms. In practice the platforms are busy trying to lock you in.

If I knew what I know now before I started I may well have gone with the PC edition. Now I have invested quite a lot of time and money...it is hard to walk away from that. Hindsight is always 20/20.

I could create another character on the PC just to play with PC players / friends but I would not want to have another ESO plus subscription to pay.

You say you are a programmer, but surely as a programmer you must understand that the backend database you refer is most likely not the same database across all platforms. I do not know what database they use, whether it is COTS, something home grown, or a mix of both. My guess is they vary by paltform. It may be why it is difficult to simply offer a transfer between platforms. The field mappings may not be a one-to-one relationship; moreover, they probably have tables within those databases to house various things such as character inventory, their bank inventory, their quest logs, their crafting bag contents, etc. The key index field may not be the same across each platforms database, thus making even more difficult to do a transfer.

Just some thoughts from someone who is not a programmer nor a database administrator...just someone who has seen a thing or two.

idk · August 2016

drakhan2002_ESO wrote: »

carljokl wrote: »

It is interesting how the attitude of players can vary so much from platform to platform.

I stayed a PC gamer for years because the console experience seemed dumbed down by comparison. These days the consoles are so much like PC aside from using game controllers. The same games are typically published across platforms. Map the game play to the given controller. The PC tends to have a little edge because of access to things like the console where applicable and mods / add-ons.

When it comes to the profiles though, being a programmer I just see my characters and purchases as a collection of values in a database. Technically easily portable back and forth between platforms. In practice the platforms are busy trying to lock you in.

If I knew what I know now before I started I may well have gone with the PC edition. Now I have invested quite a lot of time and money...it is hard to walk away from that. Hindsight is always 20/20.

I could create another character on the PC just to play with PC players / friends but I would not want to have another ESO plus subscription to pay.

You say you are a programmer, but surely as a programmer you must understand that the backend database you refer is most likely not the same database across all platforms. I do not know what database they use, whether it is COTS, something home grown, or a mix of both. My guess is they vary by paltform. It may be why it is difficult to simply offer a transfer between platforms. The field mappings may not be a one-to-one relationship; moreover, they probably have tables within those databases to house various things such as character inventory, their bank inventory, their quest logs, their crafting bag contents, etc. The key index field may not be the same across each platforms database, thus making even more difficult to do a transfer.

Just some thoughts from someone who is not a programmer nor a database administrator...just someone who has seen a thing or two.

As a database specialize, since we are tossing around titles, it doesn't matter what the backend is as all the databases for the various platforms are organized similarly. It's simply scripting the transfer protocols. Additionally, Zos has already demonstrated they can transfer accounts from one platform to another. It's been done from PC to both consoles.

However, it's really irrelevant as Zos has stated the limited transfers were one time only and made no exception for those that missed the window.

carljokl · August 2016

drakhan2002_ESO wrote: »

You say you are a programmer, but surely as a programmer you must understand that the backend database you refer is most likely not the same database across all platforms.

I don't see why the the back end database "most likely" would not be the same. That said I don't know. The bulk of the profile data ought to be common across platforms otherwise it would become a pain to maintain as game patches are released. It generally makes sense in software to keep as much code and data common as possible.

The only thing that would change would be platform specific settings like button mappings and possibly some of the graphical detail settings. Arguably many of those would/could be stored locally on the specific end system anyway.

Not knowing how the data is stored I can't say for sure but as has been already pointed out, migration was available at one point. This was only from PC to console and has never been seen the other way.

A technical problem comes into play in such cases like the recent update 11 where the PC/Mac were patched before he consoles. At that point there could be data specific to update 11 not available on the other platform.

So sure it is conjecture at this point because Zenomax have been clear about not permitting any transfers now.

I would have been curious to know why there is such resistance to "roaming profiles" but probably that will just end up with speculation without an official answer.

It's not a deal breaker but still a disappointing shame.

idk · August 2016

carljokl wrote: »

The bulk of the profile data ought to be common across platforms otherwise it would become a pain to maintain as game patches are released.

It generally makes sense in software to keep as much code and data common as possible.

The only thing that would change would be platform specific settings like button mappings and possibly some of the graphical detail settings. Arguably many of those would/could be stored locally on the specific end system anyway.

Not knowing how the data is stored I can't say for sure but as has been already pointed out, migration was available at one point. This was only from PC to console and has never been seen the other way.

A technical problem comes into play in such cases like the recent update 11 where the PC/Mac were patched before he consoles. At that point there could be data specific to update 11 not available on the other platform.

So sure it is conjecture at this point because Zenomax have been clear about not permitting any transfers now.
I would have been curious to know why there is such resistance to "roaming profiles" but probably that will just end up with speculation without an official answer.

It's not a deal breaker but still a disappointing shame.

@drakhan2002_ESO is mostly correct. The back ends may be different I certainly do not know the demands for Xbone or PS.

It's the organization that would be similar and Zos has proven they can write the script to transfer accounts.

But as I already said, pretty much a moot point. Zos denied others with a significantly stronger case because the missed the wndow to sign up. These people were promised after PC launch they could Transfer to console when they launched, yet they didn't keep up with their emails to find out how.

And again, considering how Extreemly rare a thread on this subject is and that this thread isn't really gaining traction, I'd say don't hold your breath. Probably not worth he cost for Zos to do the business analysis on his many crowns to charge.

carljokl · August 2016

In my ideal world the question of how much to charge would not matter. I wish profiles were handled in such a way that they could roam independent of platform and server. One off transfers would not be relevant because it is accessible from each platform. However given the reality is the other end of the spectrum I don't see that happening.

dodgehopper_ESO · August 2016

PC-EU and PC-NA should be connected. I agree with this premise. I believe Xbox and PS4 are not connected because Sony and Microsoft have their own gaming networks and agendas. The Pc-to-PC disconnect though is annoying, and I've given feedback about this before.

idk · August 2016

carljokl wrote: »

In my ideal world the question of how much to charge would not matter. I wish profiles were handled in such a way that they could roam independent of platform and server. One off transfers would not be relevant because it is accessible from each platform. However given the reality is the other end of the spectrum I don't see that happening.

This will never happen as it would be to much work to keep up with it. it would be a nightmare in so many levels and require infrastructure that's not in place.

No way Jose. None of the serves should be connected. Their is a reason they are not as one to begin with.

Ain't gonna happen. Period.

driosketch · August 2016

There are 7 megaservers, Xbox NA, Xbox EU, PS NA, PS EU, PC NA, PC EU, and the PTS. I have only seen two cross platform transfers. PC to console, which was before the console launched, and the PTS which cycles between PC NA & EU by wiping the previous transfer.

My guess is there are duplication/ overwriting concerns transferring from one server's data base to another live server. The most common issue I can think of being that only one character can have a given name per server.

idk · August 2016

driosketch wrote: »

There are 7 megaservers, Xbox NA, Xbox EU, PS NA, PS EU, PC NA, PC EU, and the PTS. I have only seen two cross platform transfers. PC to console, which was before the console launched, and the PTS which cycles between PC NA & EU by wiping the previous transfer.

My guess is there are duplication/ overwriting concerns transferring from one server's data base to another live server. The most common issue I can think of being that only one character can have a given name per server.

Just more work than what they want. But OP isn't interested in transferring. He want all the serves tied together so we are all as one, or at least can play on whichever server and platform we want any time without having to make a reauired.

To costly and to much work. Pipe dream to the max with only one or two players interested.

carljokl · August 2016

I agree it is highly unlikely to happen.

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

It would be a nightmare in so many levels and require infrastructure that's not in place.

I don't know how you would know that for sure without knowledge of the architecture. It might be difficult or not but that depends on design and architecture decisions to which I don't have access.

It is possible to have a single architectural component that is responsible for persistence of the profiles. Each platform has access to this common profile service.

I don't know if you feel that that players being able to use their characters on more that one server (assuming they could not be using the same profile in more than one place at one time) would adversely affect your experience. It is still possible for one player with one account to maintain multiple profiles across the various platforms and servers. An account is not locked to one platform or server, just the profiles are.

idk · August 2016

carljokl wrote: »

I agree it is highly unlikely to happen.

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

It would be a nightmare in so many levels and require infrastructure that's not in place.

I don't know how you would know that for sure without knowledge of the architecture. It might be difficult or not but that depends on design and architecture decisions to which I don't have access.

It is possible to have a single architectural component that is responsible for persistence of the profiles. Each platform has access to this common profile service.

I don't know if you feel that that players being able to use their characters on more that one server (assuming they could not be using the same profile in more than one place at one time) would adversely affect your experience. It is still possible for one player with one account to maintain multiple profiles across the various platforms and servers. An account is not locked to one platform or server, just the profiles are.

Actually, I do have an idea of the architecture that is not in place that would be required. This is in terms of both bandwidth connectivity and hardware requirements that currently do not exist in zos' design.

And since you want this for free and it's obvious few are demanding this, it's not worth the time of trouble.

Edit: and I'm not even getting into played experience and have not brought that up so that part of your post is moot as far as I am concerned.

Shadesofkin · August 2016

Microsoft and Sony do not traditionally play well with each other. Console players and PC players do not typically play well with each other. I played DCUO, I had to regularly deal with a very large drop in performance from console players overall. I'm not saying they can't step up and play just as well, I'm saying that it was often a noticeable difference in our reaction times, our ability to access menus and our overall combat gameplay that made me understand why my league was almost exclusively pc players.

carljokl · August 2016

I pay for a plus subscription and buy things from time to time so it is not like I am expecting everything for free.

Given it is the way it is and it sounds like Zenomax isn't a very big company then no, I don't think it would be easy to justify the cost to make the change.

I still wonder from a theoretical perspective whether PSN and XBOX Live also host storage of the profiles. If so it would rule out a centralised profile service across platform.

Cross server on the same platform would be possible but if the data is separate then player/character names are likely to be duplicated across servers.
This would be a barrier in merging the player profile database. It is a shame. If not designed from the outset with this in mind it becomes a pain to retrofit.

Still it would be nice to even just have the one off migration but that is moot too.

AlnilamE · August 2016

OP, if I understand you correctly

carljokl wrote: »

In my ideal world the question of how much to charge would not matter. I wish profiles were handled in such a way that they could roam independent of platform and server. One off transfers would not be relevant because it is accessible from each platform. However given the reality is the other end of the spectrum I don't see that happening.

This would either require one giant mega-server for all platforms and locations, or literally live ETL across platforms/servers (and ensuring that all platforms/servers are on the same version), which sounds like a ton of work for what are probably a very limited number of cases. I would think most people that play on PC stay on PC and most people that play on console stay on their preferred console most of the time, with the exception of travel, which most players won't do on a regular basis.

So I don't see why they would spend the amount of resources required on that, particularly at this stage, when people have had their profiles going for years.

Consider the nightmare that would be trying to create a consolidated list of accounts/character names and sorting out duplicates across servers. Also keep in mind that for the longest time, having profiles on both EU and NA was the way alt-holics got around the 8-character limit. These people would be very upset if they had to suddenly kill a third to half their characters.

And the PC to Console transfer for those who took advantage of the offer was all done *before* the console servers were live. So it's a completely different issue than transferring between two live servers.

So while I absolutely understand how it would be convenient for you, I think that it will probably never happen and would not really benefit that many people.

carljokl · August 2016

Ultimately now I wish I had gone down the PC route. I got interested in ESO through a longstanding friend who is a longstanding follower of the Elder Scrolls games. He emigrated to Canada. I had hopes of us playing together. I should have checked before buying the PS4 version.

My most realistic prospect is at some point to park my PS4 account and start over on the PC. I could discontinue my ESO plus subscription on PS4 and set a new one up on PC.

It would be a pain starting over but I go through a level of that with each Alt I create.

idk · August 2016

@carljokl

Honestly, start over. While I understand your dilemma, I inwo a couple that did just that recently. Level up a new character fast and grind CP.

While it's a pain, socializing with guilds and such is probably easier on PC due to having more tools available.

AlnilamE · August 2016

It's not that hard, really.

A friend just did that when he gave his account to his wife, as she had a couple of characters she played on it. He's already way past 240 champion points and he's not really had that much time to play since he created it.

And PC is fun! We have cookies! I mean add-ons!