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Should players be able to kill guards?
Bryanonymous
✭✭✭✭✭
Should players be able to kill guards? 234 votes
Yes
45%
107 votes
No
53%
126 votes
0
-
Bryanonymous✭✭✭✭✭My counter arguments towards several illogical conclusions made by those who say it is essential:
I don't want to watch other players go on killing sprees and kill everyone in towns.
So, to preserve your immersion, it is necessary to make unrealistic consequences, and ruin immersion for the rest of us? Probably the best opinion you can give, however it is just an opinion.
It is necessary because: A. If they were dead, there would be no NPC's around. B. There would be no point to paying bounties. C. The justice system would be too easy.
A. Simple fix is to increase the speed of respawns.
B. Wrong. Being attacked on site is still a consequence for being a criminal.
C. No one said the guards should be weak. Make them as strong as group bosses.
I see no reason why players should be allowed to kill them.
Because it's fun and more realistic?
Players would use guards to grind XP.
Then turn XP gain off for killing guards.
The developers have more important issues to work on.
As if changing the health of NPC's is so difficult. Immortal guards have a direct influence on the choices people make in their day to day activities. Having no choice but to run is not only unrealistic, it is degrading to a character who pretty much helps everyone they meet fight everything from monsters to Daedric Princes. And indoors, it is a death sentence. Completely ridiculous to think this aspect of the game is acceptable.
Because MMO.
Oh, so global auction house then... Because MMO?
So please, enlighten me with a good reason for why they should be invincible...
Because the developers chose to make it that way.
Oh, ok. So I guess every other thread asking for changes should accept this as well.Edited by Bryanonymous on August 15, 2016 11:01AM6 -
Lolssi✭✭✭Bryanonymous wrote: »My counter arguments towards several illogical conclusions made by those who say it is essential:
I don't want to watch other players go on killing sprees and kill everyone in towns.
So, to preserve your immersion, it is necessary to make unrealistic consequences, and ruin immersion for the rest of us? Probably the best opinion you can give, however it is just an opinion.
It is necessary because: A. If they were dead, there would be no NPC's around. B. There would be no point to paying bounties. C. The justice system would be too easy.
A. Simple fix is to increase the speed of respawns.
B. Wrong. Being attacked on site is still a consequence for being a criminal.
C. No one said the guards should be weak. Make them as strong as group bosses.
I see no reason why players should be allowed to kill them.
Because it's fun and more realistic?
Players would use guards to grind XP.
Then turn XP gain off for killing guards.
The developers have more important issues to work on.
As if changing the health of NPC's is so difficult. Immortal guards have a direct influence on the choices people make in their day to day activities. Having no choice but to run is not only unrealistic, it is degrading to a character who pretty much helps everyone they meet fight everything from monsters to Daedric Princes. And indoors, it is a death sentence. Completely ridiculous to think this aspect of the game is acceptable.
Because MMO.
Oh, so global auction house then... Because MMO?
So please, enlighten me with a good reason for why they should be invincible.
Because the developers chose to make it that way.
Oh, ok. So I guess every other thread asking for changes should accept this as well.
I voted no but you actually made really good points how it could be done. So I'll just load my previous save...aah stupid mmo!Edited by Lolssi on August 15, 2016 11:02AM1 -
Bigevilpeter✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭it should be like GTA, you can kill them, but the more you do the more they get and the stronger they get!!7 -
Mojmir✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Bryanonymous wrote: »My counter arguments towards several illogical conclusions made by those who say it is essential:
I don't want to watch other players go on killing sprees and kill everyone in towns.
So, to preserve your immersion, it is necessary to make unrealistic consequences, and ruin immersion for the rest of us? Probably the best opinion you can give, however it is just an opinion.
It is necessary because: A. If they were dead, there would be no NPC's around. B. There would be no point to paying bounties. C. The justice system would be too easy.
A. Simple fix is to increase the speed of respawns.
B. Wrong. Being attacked on site is still a consequence for being a criminal.
C. No one said the guards should be weak. Make them as strong as group bosses.
I see no reason why players should be allowed to kill them.
Because it's fun and more realistic?
Players would use guards to grind XP.
Then turn XP gain off for killing guards.
The developers have more important issues to work on.
As if changing the health of NPC's is so difficult. Immortal guards have a direct influence on the choices people make in their day to day activities. Having no choice but to run is not only unrealistic, it is degrading to a character who pretty much helps everyone they meet fight everything from monsters to Daedric Princes. And indoors, it is a death sentence. Completely ridiculous to think this aspect of the game is acceptable.
Because MMO.
Oh, so global auction house then... Because MMO?
So please, enlighten me with a good reason for why they should be invincible...
Because the developers chose to make it that way.
Oh, ok. So I guess every other thread asking for changes should accept this as well.
These are all the reasons I think you should be able to kill them.2 -
Easily_Lost✭✭✭✭✭You left out a third option. 'I Don't Care'.PC - NA - AD
started April 2015
PVE & Solo only
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CROWN CRATES: It doesn't affect gameplay, it's not mandatory, it's cosmetic only. If it helps to support the game and ZOS, I support it! Say YES to crown crates.1 -
XDragonDoomX✭✭✭✭✭No.
Keep them immortal.
If you can escape from them - fine, you deserve to get away. If not - then suffer the consequences of your crime(s)
'Mort said “There’s no justice.”
Death sighed. "No, he said,... there’s just me."
(Mort - Terry Pratchett)"Forums are like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea.
massive, difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a source of
mind-boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it. ”
(with apologies to Eugene H. Spafford, aka Spaf)
I have the power to please one person per day. Today is not your day.
Tomorrow... Tomorrow does not look good either.
82. Victory laps after killing the dragon with my 1d2 bow is considered in poor taste.
83. My gnome does not like big butts and he cannot lie.
84. Not allowed to talk my fellow inquisitors into buying a 220lb pull crossbow.
85. Not allowed to talk my fellow inquisitors into buying an industrial strength flamethrower.
86. Not allowed to make a superhero with a 99% chance of dodging even after the -10 penalty for a successful called shot.
87. There is no such thing as a dwarven katana.
88. My bard does not get a bonus to perform if she is obviously not wearing anything under her tabard.
89. The elf's name is not Legolam.
** Mr Glenn's Forbidden activities list**6 -
AmberLaTerra✭✭✭✭Yes, but only if the bounty they have is from stealing not from murder. The game tracks your murders for achievements so it can already detect what your bounty is for. This would give a thief a chance to keep their loot if unfortunate enough to be caught by a guard inside a building where the doors will not open if you have been attacked making escape from the guards nearly impossible in that case.
While still preventing killing sprees of whole towns as those with a bounty for murder would still face immortal guards.PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates!
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Level 9 Imperial Stam Templar EP
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For the glory of the Pact3 -
Vipstaakki✭✭✭✭✭
✭You are not supposed to get caught by the guards in the first place. Let alone murder all of them.
If you are caught you deserve to be chased by immortal guards.
If you are really complaining about immortal guards you need to learn how to sneak.Edited by Vipstaakki on August 15, 2016 11:49AM7 -
Epona222✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »Look they can become killable when player encorcers get added.
That system is no longer on the cards, there will be no such thing as player enforcers.GM - Ghost Sea Trading Co - NA PC
Epona was a Romano-Celtic goddess dating back to around 1800 to 2000 years before computer games were invented.2 -
purple-magicb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭No. It defeats the purpose of having guards. Then you have guard-killing zergs running around from city to city and that just doesn't fit with the game. I want to say "realistic", but I understand the irony in saying that when referencing a game that you can summon Daedric beings and shoot fire and lightning from a staff. What I mean is, this is not an apocalyptic game where chaos and anarchy rule. When that starts happening people start getting away with crimes very easily and then you see the collapse of justice achievements and associated character archetypes (there is no incentive for someone to choose the side of law vs the side of crime). At that point everyone is a criminal and there's no point to even having guards.
In short, it would completely change the dynamic and feel of the entire game.Edited by purple-magicb16_ESO on August 15, 2016 11:58AMI don't comment here often but when I do, I get [snip]2 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, it works as it is. it is one of the few challenges outside of one or two trials.
It is an MMO so killing the guards would make cities open to any crimes without cost. There would need to be much more guards to enter the battle if they could be killed in order to balance it out. Basically it would still be suicide to fight a guard.
Besides, guards are so easy to escape. I have not been killed by one in a long time and choose to flee each time. Of course if I am kill on sight I do need to be gud to avoid the guards which is a good design IMO.
Of course OP has a different opinion and after reading his rebuttal I do not see those points worth mentioning.3 -
Bryanonymous✭✭✭✭✭
RPG's are suppose to give choices to the player, not impose them.Vipstaakki wrote: »You are not supposed to get caught by the guards in the first place.
Ability is irrelevant. This is about plot, dialogue, narrative, and immersion.Vipstaakki wrote: »If you are really complaining about immortal guards you need to learn how to sneak.
0 -
Jade1986✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭My simple answer is no.
I would though be open to the guards being equal to group dungeon boss strength and then be killable. That or make it so they are in cp 160 gold gear fully enchanted with gold enchants and are able to call for backup.0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Bryanonymous wrote: »
RPG's are suppose to give choices to the player, not impose them.Vipstaakki wrote: »You are not supposed to get caught by the guards in the first place.
We are given a choice. Those in combat with the guards made their choice. That is the point. Great mechanic for the thieving system.0 -
XDragonDoomX✭✭✭✭✭Bryanonymous wrote: »
RPG's are suppose to give choices to the player, not impose them.Vipstaakki wrote: »You are not supposed to get caught by the guards in the first place.
You have a choice - get gud or get caught.
Ability is irrelevant. This is about plot, dialogue, narrative, and immersion.Vipstaakki wrote: »If you are really complaining about immortal guards you need to learn how to sneak.
[/quote]
It is about ability - skilled criminals avoid getting caught most of the time. The penalty of failure is meeting the immortal guards and paying the price.
"Forums are like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea.
massive, difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a source of
mind-boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it. ”
(with apologies to Eugene H. Spafford, aka Spaf)
I have the power to please one person per day. Today is not your day.
Tomorrow... Tomorrow does not look good either.
82. Victory laps after killing the dragon with my 1d2 bow is considered in poor taste.
83. My gnome does not like big butts and he cannot lie.
84. Not allowed to talk my fellow inquisitors into buying a 220lb pull crossbow.
85. Not allowed to talk my fellow inquisitors into buying an industrial strength flamethrower.
86. Not allowed to make a superhero with a 99% chance of dodging even after the -10 penalty for a successful called shot.
87. There is no such thing as a dwarven katana.
88. My bard does not get a bonus to perform if she is obviously not wearing anything under her tabard.
89. The elf's name is not Legolam.
** Mr Glenn's Forbidden activities list**5 -
purple-magicb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭Bigevilpeter wrote: »it should be like GTA, you can kill them, but the more you do the more they get and the stronger they get!!
The Greater Toronto Area?
Didn't think TO was that bad.I don't comment here often but when I do, I get [snip]1 -
Bryanonymous✭✭✭✭✭Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »Bryanonymous wrote: »[quote="Vipstaakki;3264084"
We are given a choice. Those in combat with the guards made their choice. That is the point. Great mechanic for the thieving system.
Run or die is limiting the choices. We also choose to play a first person shooter or not play it. That doesn't make itXDragonDoomX wrote: »Bryanonymous wrote: »
RPG's are suppose to give choices to the player, not impose them.Vipstaakki wrote: »You are not supposed to get caught by the guards in the first place.
You have a choice - get gud or get caught.
Ability is irrelevant. This is about plot, dialogue, narrative, and immersion.Vipstaakki wrote: »If you are really complaining about immortal guards you need to learn how to sneak.
It is about ability - skilled criminals avoid getting caught most of the time. The penalty of failure is meeting the immortal guards and paying the price.
Sneaking is meh... No one should assume someone is bad at sneaking just because they want to put immortal guards in their place. That assumption is just misdirecting the actual intent of those who want to kill them. It has nothing to do with sneaking skill. If anything, it's more about ego. Some of us just don't like that every guard is invincible. You'd think that the most hardcore players in the game would be irritated that after all their hard grinding, they still get slapped by some random guard in town.Edited by Bryanonymous on August 15, 2016 12:06PM0 -
Dubhliam✭✭✭✭✭
✭Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »Look they can become killable when player encorcers get added.
That system is no longer on the cards, there will be no such thing as player enforcers.
And that is the reason why we will always have immortal Guards.
Otherwise, if you want to delve on what might have been, here is a thread where I proposed in detail how it could be done:
The PvP Justice System Concept, with opt out.0 -
Bryanonymous✭✭✭✭✭Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »Look they can become killable when player encorcers get added.
That system is no longer on the cards, there will be no such thing as player enforcers.
And that is the reason why we will always have immortal Guards.
Otherwise, if you want to delve on what might have been, here is a thread where I proposed in detail how it could be done:
The PvP Justice System Concept, with opt out.
Forcing PvP for those who want more immersive NPC's over complicates a simple flaw that can easily be fixed.2 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Killable guards would be an 'exploitable system' for player zergs. While this sounds interesting, and could be, ZOS does not maintain systems very closely, so the whole Justice system would be a joke for two years until ZOS got around to looking into it. It would be challenging for about a month, then a joke for the next two years. People would be complaining endlessly in the forum about the guards and the justice system. (That, at least, would not change
)
So... No.XBox EU/NA:@ElsonsoJannus
PC NA/EU: @Elsonso
PSN NA/EU: @ElsonsoJannus
Total in-game hours: 11321
X/Twitter: ElsonsoJannus2 -
Dubhliam✭✭✭✭✭
✭Bryanonymous wrote: »Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »Look they can become killable when player encorcers get added.
That system is no longer on the cards, there will be no such thing as player enforcers.
And that is the reason why we will always have immortal Guards.
Otherwise, if you want to delve on what might have been, here is a thread where I proposed in detail how it could be done:
The PvP Justice System Concept, with opt out.
Forcing PvP for those who want more immersive NPC's over complicates a simple flaw that can easily be fixed.
Believe me, it is no flaw.
Guards are immortal for a reason.
Without additional repercussion systems in place, they should remain immortal.0 -
Bryanonymous✭✭✭✭✭Bryanonymous wrote: »Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »Look they can become killable when player encorcers get added.
That system is no longer on the cards, there will be no such thing as player enforcers.
And that is the reason why we will always have immortal Guards.
Otherwise, if you want to delve on what might have been, here is a thread where I proposed in detail how it could be done:
The PvP Justice System Concept, with opt out.
Forcing PvP for those who want more immersive NPC's over complicates a simple flaw that can easily be fixed.
Believe me, it is no flaw.
Guards are immortal for a reason.
Without additional repercussion systems in place, they should remain immortal.
If every guard was as strong as the veteran group bosses, and bounties did not clear, there would still be enough repercussions for getting caught. Assuming that it would be easy is not a legitimate argument. It's the invincibility that is ridiculous. Getting caught inside a bank is a death sentence with no other options. It is a flaw. The flaw is laziness.0 -
Dubhliam✭✭✭✭✭
✭Bryanonymous wrote: »Bryanonymous wrote: »Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »Look they can become killable when player encorcers get added.
That system is no longer on the cards, there will be no such thing as player enforcers.
And that is the reason why we will always have immortal Guards.
Otherwise, if you want to delve on what might have been, here is a thread where I proposed in detail how it could be done:
The PvP Justice System Concept, with opt out.
Forcing PvP for those who want more immersive NPC's over complicates a simple flaw that can easily be fixed.
Believe me, it is no flaw.
Guards are immortal for a reason.
Without additional repercussion systems in place, they should remain immortal.
If every guard was as strong as the veteran group bosses, and bounties did not clear, there would still be enough repercussions for getting caught. Assuming that it would be easy is not a legitimate argument. It's the invincibility that is ridiculous. Getting caught inside a bank is a death sentence with no other options. It is a flaw. The flaw is laziness.
Nope.0 -
Bryanonymous✭✭✭✭✭Bryanonymous wrote: »Bryanonymous wrote: »Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »Look they can become killable when player encorcers get added.
That system is no longer on the cards, there will be no such thing as player enforcers.
And that is the reason why we will always have immortal Guards.
Otherwise, if you want to delve on what might have been, here is a thread where I proposed in detail how it could be done:
The PvP Justice System Concept, with opt out.
Forcing PvP for those who want more immersive NPC's over complicates a simple flaw that can easily be fixed.
Believe me, it is no flaw.
Guards are immortal for a reason.
Without additional repercussion systems in place, they should remain immortal.
If every guard was as strong as the veteran group bosses, and bounties did not clear, there would still be enough repercussions for getting caught. Assuming that it would be easy is not a legitimate argument. It's the invincibility that is ridiculous. Getting caught inside a bank is a death sentence with no other options. It is a flaw. The flaw is laziness.
Nope.
Ok, whatever. The only legitimate reason beyond preference would be that the megaservers can't handle the action in populated high quality cities. I can imagine that is the reason, as there is a huge memory leak in this game, and the devs probably don't want people to notice it. And in that one scenario... Yes, the game is flawed.Edited by Bryanonymous on August 15, 2016 12:21PM0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Bryanonymous wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »Bryanonymous wrote: »[quote="Vipstaakki;3264084"
We are given a choice. Those in combat with the guards made their choice. That is the point. Great mechanic for the thieving system.
Run or die is limiting the choices. We also choose to play a first person shooter or not play it. That doesn't make itXDragonDoomX wrote: »Bryanonymous wrote: »
RPG's are suppose to give choices to the player, not impose them.Vipstaakki wrote: »You are not supposed to get caught by the guards in the first place.
You have a choice - get gud or get caught.
Ability is irrelevant. This is about plot, dialogue, narrative, and immersion.Vipstaakki wrote: »If you are really complaining about immortal guards you need to learn how to sneak.
It is about ability - skilled criminals avoid getting caught most of the time. The penalty of failure is meeting the immortal guards and paying the price.
Sneaking is meh... No one should assume someone is bad at sneaking just because they want to put immortal guards in their place. That assumption is just misdirecting the actual intent of those who want to kill them. It has nothing to do with sneaking skill. If anything, it's more about ego. Some of us just don't like that every guard is invincible. You'd think that the most hardcore players in the game would be irritated that after all their hard grinding, they still get slapped by some random guard in town.
LOL, No one gets slapped by a random guard out of the blue. No one. We get hit by a guard when we make two choices, the first is making a mistake that leads to a bounty and then not playing well so we get caught by a guard.
Face it, most that are checking out your thread disagree and your arguments are merely you do not want a challenge with the thieving system. You just want a kill-able guard so you do not have to be concerned with the system. Really not much sense in that.
Being that the OP is not open to any reason there is no point in continuing to participate in this conversation. He just wants it his way/making it easy street.3 -
Lumenn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Absolutely not. We already have groups of people hanging around wayshrines spamming abilities. If this were allowed it'd be worse. Even if they had no loot, exp, achievements, etc. Just...no.1 -
Bryanonymous✭✭✭✭✭Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »Bryanonymous wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »Bryanonymous wrote: »[quote="Vipstaakki;3264084"
We are given a choice. Those in combat with the guards made their choice. That is the point. Great mechanic for the thieving system.
Run or die is limiting the choices. We also choose to play a first person shooter or not play it. That doesn't make itXDragonDoomX wrote: »Bryanonymous wrote: »
RPG's are suppose to give choices to the player, not impose them.Vipstaakki wrote: »You are not supposed to get caught by the guards in the first place.
You have a choice - get gud or get caught.
Ability is irrelevant. This is about plot, dialogue, narrative, and immersion.Vipstaakki wrote: »If you are really complaining about immortal guards you need to learn how to sneak.
It is about ability - skilled criminals avoid getting caught most of the time. The penalty of failure is meeting the immortal guards and paying the price.
Sneaking is meh... No one should assume someone is bad at sneaking just because they want to put immortal guards in their place. That assumption is just misdirecting the actual intent of those who want to kill them. It has nothing to do with sneaking skill. If anything, it's more about ego. Some of us just don't like that every guard is invincible. You'd think that the most hardcore players in the game would be irritated that after all their hard grinding, they still get slapped by some random guard in town.
LOL, No one gets slapped by a random guard out of the blue. No one. We get hit by a guard when we make two choices, the first is making a mistake that leads to a bounty and then not playing well so we get caught by a guard.
Face it, most that are checking out your thread disagree and your arguments are merely you do not want a challenge with the thieving system. You just want a kill-able guard so you do not have to be concerned with the system. Really not much sense in that.
Being that the OP is not open to any reason there is no point in continuing to participate in this conversation. He just wants it his way/making it easy street.
I will face that I am more of an assassin and grand theft auto fan, than a whatever this fake consequence for a boring half choice justice system is. I'm also a huge TES fan, who remembers killing guards and bounties still mattering.Edited by Bryanonymous on August 15, 2016 12:26PM0
This discussion has been closed.