Actually, tanking is pretty relevant with boss districts. Baron Thursk is my new best bro, sending hundreds of exploding scamps to me, while I hug my opponents

It has some pretty nice entertaining value, using bosses to kill your opponents. Not much beats this "oh cr*p" feeling when your enemies see you lead a 12 meters tall giant toward them and blow 'em up all at once.

Vaoh wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Gotta love it when these Heavy Armor, unlimited sustain, permablock Magicka Templars/DKs stand on Imperial City District flags and stop them from being taken because nothing happens if the flag is contested.

Well thought out for sure.

That is true of anyone you are unable to kill for any reason.

No, not really. That is true of Heavy Armor builds which are extremely prevalent in PvP this patch. Heavy armor doesn't just provide you greater resources (especially for permablocking) than other Armor weights. It also gives high mitigation, so users cannot die easily from burst. It should also be noted that DoT ticks separately proc Heavy Armor passives, allowing them to constantly reach their full potential.

And if you defend a big oversight by ZOS in their Imperial City District capture system, it's really sad. The tank sits on a flag, contests it, then waits for his group to constantly die/respawn extremely close by until they eventually defeat their opposition. That is bad gameplay right there. Makes people not want to PvP in Imperial City when it happens.

Either you don't know how tanky these builds can get, or you run one of these builds. Rest assured, they will eventually be properly balanced.

Anyone who has not died can make a claim to the flag.

Heavy armor does not have better sustain than the other weights, it has no cost reduction or recovery that can be buffed by cp or potions. It only surpases the other weights in its ability to sustain block. At base its armor is almost entirely penetrated by most pvp builds. All it really gives is more healing, better block sustain and higher ground if you want to surpass the averge pentration with more armor.

They can't take the flag either because they can't kill you. Its a stalemate.

This is where you clearly didn't think through it. Heavy armor does have better sustain because (thread title) you can permablock. Black Rose helps tremedously as well which is why it is fotm on Heavy builds. With Sturdy and other smart sets, you don't have to die to any less than a coordinated small group of strong CP501 players.

That tank fending off 10+ people, already owns the flag. Because it is owned by their alliance, allies can continue to spawn and fight off the players trying to take down the cancer tank and claim their flag. I've seen it happen and don't get involved.

It's really dirty PvP, and stuff like that is why most PvP campaigns besides the central campaign (Scourge on PS4 NA) have emptied out so much.

This is where you didn't read it through I think, I mentioned that it surpass in block sustain. That is not why black rose is FOTM in PvP, see Sribes thread on it. PvE yeah.

1 person holding a flag from 10 people without killing anyone is a meaningless endeavor, and if the group it at all competent could only be possible via reactive and is an issue with reactive. The point of ICP is to kill players not playing color guard.

Black Rose is a must on Heavy builds. Whether playing a tank, a DPS, a Healer.... it provides you with everything you need to have a ridiculously strong build.

The endeavor is far from meaningless.

It stops groups from taking flags because the synergy of everything you can use to be tanky by yourself is over the top right now.

And the fact that you just said that the point is to KILL PLAYERS and not play colorguard shows you have a shred of hope in seeing the issue right now. Those tank builds (when used by competant players) cannot be taken down without a small group.

You are conflating two separate purposes for Black Rose, Stamina dps builds and Blocking builds. 0 dps is not a strong build. Doing nothing but blocking and not dying is not a "strong build" it's a crutch that bad players use to feel relevant.

Competent players don't use those builds to keep a flag 1 color and not earn any TV or AP. It's literally meaningless. The only way a competent group is going to fail to kill a tank is with reactive and is a problem with reactive. And I consider that a possibility, not a certainty.

YES! EXACTLY! Read you own post!

There are a ton of bad players in ESO. I couldn't 1vX groups of players if they weren't so consistently weak and mindless in their zerging.

It is a crutch, and when ZOS rebalances this tank meta (aka gonna get nerfed) then those bad players will get screwed.

But bad players having a crutch in which they feel relevant and accomplish nothing is not a justifiable reason to consequently nerf every aspect of the game that involves the same mechanic.

Vaoh wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Gotta love it when these Heavy Armor, unlimited sustain, permablock Magicka Templars/DKs stand on Imperial City District flags and stop them from being taken because nothing happens if the flag is contested.

Well thought out for sure.

That is true of anyone you are unable to kill for any reason.

No, not really. That is true of Heavy Armor builds which are extremely prevalent in PvP this patch. Heavy armor doesn't just provide you greater resources (especially for permablocking) than other Armor weights. It also gives high mitigation, so users cannot die easily from burst. It should also be noted that DoT ticks separately proc Heavy Armor passives, allowing them to constantly reach their full potential.

And if you defend a big oversight by ZOS in their Imperial City District capture system, it's really sad. The tank sits on a flag, contests it, then waits for his group to constantly die/respawn extremely close by until they eventually defeat their opposition. That is bad gameplay right there. Makes people not want to PvP in Imperial City when it happens.

Either you don't know how tanky these builds can get, or you run one of these builds. Rest assured, they will eventually be properly balanced.

So tanks being useful by not being easy to kill, is an oversight? Sorry if tanky tanks go against the "everything must die" burst meta people seemed to love so much, but there are builds other than max damage ones as well.

We don't need a max damage burst meta. However, we also really don't need a tank meta.

Tank meta. Ugh

Doesn't that sound stupid to you? Everyone standing still and just soaking in damage but never dying and all?

You know, I saw an interesting battle take place yesterday. Stood far away and watched because I thought it was really sad. An EP tank fended off three AD players, then another EP tank player showed up ~30 seconds later. Two more AD players showed up, one damage dealer typical build and a tank. All of the player kept throwing Ults and damage around for 5 minutes straight and they eventually all stopped moving, turned around, and walked away. This actually happened. If that's how you want PvP to play out, where fights either last 5 seconds or 15 minutes, then I'd rather the meta changed already because it sucks right now.

I don't see the problem here.

There have been "tank" and "perma-block" builds since pretty much forever. Perma-block never went away. What did go away was the ability for these "perma-block" builds to do high burst damage. Now most of them are just walking bags of health that players should simply avoid targeting.

So 5 AD players can't kill 2 EP tanks? How is that a problem? If two tanks are incapable of holding off 5 enemy players (1 from your own admission a tank), then there is absolutely zero point of even having, let alone being, a "tank."

If I am fighting someone with with Reactive and Malubeth, I quickly just walk away and find another fight or target. It's fine because even though I don't want to be bothered trying to kill them (your "problem"), they can't kill me. It's only a "problem" if you and other players bang their head against the wall for 15 minutes and claim the game is broken because DPS builds, which already have ridiculously high damage and heals and damage avoidance, supposedly take too long to kill someone that just stands there holding block.

Damage in this game has never been nerfed (relatively that is, 50% battle spirit also affected damage prevention). But just about every ability to survive has been. It's a joke. Game is full of players who do nothing but max their weapon damage and complain on these forums when they feel it takes too long to kill something.

As far as tanks messing up the IC capture system, has it ever occurred to you the real problem is the half-assed and ill-thought out overly simplified manner in which an alliance has to capture the district in the first place? A single flag completely unconnected to the AvA structure that has no consequence on said AvA structure, that requires zero strategy except zerg the flag.

No one can perma block in pvp. Fear, fossilize, etc... You are not putting out enough damage. But make sure ZOS can make you... well everyone else be "better".

This kid talks about perms blocking being back but you get 0 Stam reg while blocking. I find it funny that ppl are still complaining about tanks when medium armor builds with evasion vigor and rally can survive a lot longer in 1vX situations.

Joy_Division wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Gotta love it when these Heavy Armor, unlimited sustain, permablock Magicka Templars/DKs stand on Imperial City District flags and stop them from being taken because nothing happens if the flag is contested.

Well thought out for sure.

That is true of anyone you are unable to kill for any reason.

No, not really. That is true of Heavy Armor builds which are extremely prevalent in PvP this patch. Heavy armor doesn't just provide you greater resources (especially for permablocking) than other Armor weights. It also gives high mitigation, so users cannot die easily from burst. It should also be noted that DoT ticks separately proc Heavy Armor passives, allowing them to constantly reach their full potential.

And if you defend a big oversight by ZOS in their Imperial City District capture system, it's really sad. The tank sits on a flag, contests it, then waits for his group to constantly die/respawn extremely close by until they eventually defeat their opposition. That is bad gameplay right there. Makes people not want to PvP in Imperial City when it happens.

Either you don't know how tanky these builds can get, or you run one of these builds. Rest assured, they will eventually be properly balanced.

So tanks being useful by not being easy to kill, is an oversight? Sorry if tanky tanks go against the "everything must die" burst meta people seemed to love so much, but there are builds other than max damage ones as well.

We don't need a max damage burst meta. However, we also really don't need a tank meta.

Tank meta. Ugh

Doesn't that sound stupid to you? Everyone standing still and just soaking in damage but never dying and all?

You know, I saw an interesting battle take place yesterday. Stood far away and watched because I thought it was really sad. An EP tank fended off three AD players, then another EP tank player showed up ~30 seconds later. Two more AD players showed up, one damage dealer typical build and a tank. All of the player kept throwing Ults and damage around for 5 minutes straight and they eventually all stopped moving, turned around, and walked away. This actually happened. If that's how you want PvP to play out, where fights either last 5 seconds or 15 minutes, then I'd rather the meta changed already because it sucks right now.

I don't see the problem here.

There have been "tank" and "perma-block" builds since pretty much forever. Perma-block never went away. What did go away was the ability for these "perma-block" builds to do high burst damage. Now most of them are just walking bags of health that players should simply avoid targeting.

So 5 AD players can't kill 2 EP tanks? How is that a problem? If two tanks are incapable of holding off 5 enemy players (1 from your own admission a tank), then there is absolutely zero point of even having, let alone being, a "tank."

If I am fighting someone with with Reactive and Malubeth, I quickly just walk away and find another fight or target. It's fine because even though I don't want to be bothered trying to kill them (your "problem"), they can't kill me. It's only a "problem" if you and other players bang their head against the wall for 15 minutes and claim the game is broken because DPS builds, which already have ridiculously high damage and heals and damage avoidance, supposedly take too long to kill someone that just stands there holding block.

Damage in this game has never been nerfed (relatively that is, 50% battle spirit also affected damage prevention). But just about every ability to survive has been. It's a joke. Game is full of players who do nothing but max their weapon damage and complain on these forums when they feel it takes too long to kill something.

As far as tanks messing up the IC capture system, has it ever occurred to you the real problem is the half-assed and ill-thought out overly simplified manner in which an alliance has to capture the district in the first place? A single flag completely unconnected to the AvA structure that has no consequence on said AvA structure, that requires zero strategy except zerg the flag.

100% this.

I don't see any problem with 12 reactive / malubeth 30k health magplars magdks stacking on flags spamming heals and talons. This just just working as intended. About time Brandon healing spring spam evolved into something more pure.

Magus wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

I don't see any problem with 12 reactive / malubeth 30k health magplars magdks stacking on flags spamming heals and talons. This just just working as intended. About time Brandon healing spring spam evolved into something more pure.

That example is only relevant to the IC capture mechanics.

There is actually an EP group that does exactly what you are describing in the IC, multiple reactive templars taking turns spamming remembrance. They are unable to kill anything until a handful of them go werewolf and single target focus down. My group has wiped them repeatedly with less numbers than they have. The best part of this fight is that this particular EP group will only fight in the district where their base is right next to the flag so they can jump right back down after you kill them. It took a ridiculously long time but we were able to take the flag and wipe the group several times with less numbers but yes it took a long time only because of the respawn.

Next strawman please.

Sounds like alot of fun. Too bad they nerfed Malubeth, would have been even better. There is nothing more rewarding than bashing on tanks 15 minutes straight to finally kill one and see him respawn 10seconds after next to you and have him back into the fights. Tanks are life, tanks are love. Especially the ones who can deal damage too.

Magus wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Magus wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

I don't see any problem with 12 reactive / malubeth 30k health magplars magdks stacking on flags spamming heals and talons. This just just working as intended. About time Brandon healing spring spam evolved into something more pure.

That example is only relevant to the IC capture mechanics.

There is actually an EP group that does exactly what you are describing in the IC, multiple reactive templars taking turns spamming remembrance. They are unable to kill anything until a handful of them go werewolf and single target focus down. My group has wiped them repeatedly with less numbers than they have. The best part of this fight is that this particular EP group will only fight in the district where their base is right next to the flag so they can jump right back down after you kill them. It took a ridiculously long time but we were able to take the flag and wipe the group several times with less numbers but yes it took a long time only because of the respawn.

Next strawman please.

Sounds like alot of fun. Too bad they nerfed Malubeth, would have been even better. There is nothing more rewarding than bashing on tanks 15 minutes straight to finally kill one and see him respawn 10seconds after next to you and have him back into the fights. Tanks are life, tanks are love. Especially the ones who can deal damage too.

I actually edited that it occurred before the malubeth nerf. I rarely see that group now in IC. Maybe once or twice since then. I would say it's more of an IC mechanic and spawn location issue. Open world this type of build isn't an issue because zergs everywhere anyway. Keep takes/defenses they can be effective if they lock you down in siege or you DPS them instead of priority targets but not seeing a big issue here.

You should try and play EP. One tank can keep 15 EP players busy forever. Now imagine 12 of them together.

Baconlad wrote: »

Well, dude up top is complaining about a 5 minute fight against a tank in IC? On my blazing tank I could manage 10 players beating on me indefinetly on a flag in IC. Using reactive and bloodspawn, now these are ten bad players mind you but still...not line of sighting on a flag and tanking ten players is legit I think, could be more if using malubeth I think. One lested over twenty minutes continuously with multiple group cycling through, no block here. Don't need it in this self healing meta

Yes but you sound like a blazing shield high health build and they didn't know how to counter that playstyle. 10 good players have no issue killing that playstyle.

Edit: 10 "good" players

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Gotta love it when these Heavy Armor, unlimited sustain, permablock Magicka Templars/DKs stand on Imperial City District flags and stop them from being taken because nothing happens if the flag is contested.

Well thought out for sure.

That is true of anyone you are unable to kill for any reason.

No, not really. That is true of Heavy Armor builds which are extremely prevalent in PvP this patch. Heavy armor doesn't just provide you greater resources (especially for permablocking) than other Armor weights. It also gives high mitigation, so users cannot die easily from burst. It should also be noted that DoT ticks separately proc Heavy Armor passives, allowing them to constantly reach their full potential.

And if you defend a big oversight by ZOS in their Imperial City District capture system, it's really sad. The tank sits on a flag, contests it, then waits for his group to constantly die/respawn extremely close by until they eventually defeat their opposition. That is bad gameplay right there. Makes people not want to PvP in Imperial City when it happens.

Either you don't know how tanky these builds can get, or you run one of these builds. Rest assured, they will eventually be properly balanced.

The thing is there's CCs that go through block for exactly this reason, in addition to heal debuffs (and poisons, but those are insanely cheesy, shame on you if you run them) If a tank is the reason you're not having success in the Imperial City, then it's on you, not them.

This. There was a time long ago when you could block fear and fossilize wasn't a thing. They used to allow stamina regen while blocking. This was the height of blockcasting. Then they introduced CC that went through block. There was now a counter to blockcasting on 90% of players except actual tanks spec'd that way.

The criticism was all the light armor users blockcasted everything. Once those CC that bypassed block entered the game, it was fine and a L2P issue to get around (this was before CP, or before people had 100s of CP unlocked - can't remember but it was resolved and balanced). It was still a resource management game. Then ZOS went crazy and did the no stam regen while blocking - this was perhaps the low point of blockcasting. It was an unneeded change since the CC through block worked fine to counter it. This also around the time most players switched to stamina builds and using dodge rolling as their damage mitigation instead of blocking. Others moved to heavy armor for the old bracing passive.

Constitution and black rose are a counter balance to the stam regen while blocking nerf correct, people have figured that out. They can't however roll dodge like crazy ninjas everywhere nor cast shuffle to get themselves out of snares. If you wanted to troll them, don't hit them and then just fear or fossilize them every 6 seconds and have a sorc spam encase on them when they have cc immunity or a stamblade spam bombard and basically laugh in their face or chase them into a small room behind a box so they can dawnbreaker you. Choice is up to you.