Elitism in PvP?

GreenhaloX · August 2016

So.. is this the elitism complex that many have been talking and complaining about? I am not an avid PvPer, but I recently joined a guild that strictly does PvP. So, yesterday evening, the guild sent out several MOTD for "calling to arms" that 100+ are attacking, and they need help now. I warped over to their locations and joined in the fray, and yes, the hold or keep and other nearby lumberyard and outpost were being attacked and bombarded by masses of the other pact's members. I was then invited to join in the group there, and I think we had about 20 in the group. There were also many other same pact players, who were not part of our group that were also in the fight. It lasted for about an hour and a half, maybe two hours, until we were able to repel the attacks and killed pretty much every single members of the attacking pact. It was fun, exciting and fierce at the same time.

When things finally cooled down, and seems the enemy pact had lost their momentum, I gave the group the courtesy of notifying them that I have to break off and log off for the night. After logging off from ESO shortly thereafter, I realize there's a PSN message in my inbox, probably from an officer type from that guild. Well.. it states,"Stay with crown or leave the group." That was it. I was a bit turned off by that message. I mean.. I went there to help, as that guild had sent out some frantic MOTD for a call to arms.

I recalled, at one point, that "crown" was calling out for members, to come to his aid at the keep because he was being attacked. Another group member (I'm sure she was an officer of the group/guild) was also calling for members to come to crown's aid. We rushed back to the keep, but crown was safe and sound by the time we got back to the keep. Yes, a couple times, I had joined the fray that pursued after the retreating attackers and fought them back, and we recaptured the lumberyard and outpost nearby. However, I also recalled that same female voice figure gave directions for some to head over to the lumberyard and outpost.

I can say I am not overly sensitive or have thin skin, but nobody is a fan of something appearing to be rude, hostile or toxic in nature. So, is this the elitism complex or am I just overreacting?

Voxicity · August 2016

PvP
Non-toxic community

Pick one

Junipus · August 2016

This isn't elitism, this is feeling off-guard because of a short, sharp message. Regardless of its content and your actions during the evening, simply shrug it off (since it wasn't offensive) and carry on.

cjthibs · August 2016

Some people are punks...you see the same attitude when you try and join a pug group for dungeons...other people are overly sensitive. Welcome to reality snowflakes.

vyndral13preub18_ESO · August 2016

Because i am curious, would you have been annoyed doing group pve content (basically only dungeons and trials) if someone had told you to stay with the crown and not run off doing your own thing?

Necrelios · August 2016

Truth be told, there's all different types in PvP. To top off that confusion, there's all different types of PvP as well. Don't want to be a crown chasing zombie? Find a group that wants to do what you want to do. The objectives and capturing keeps and all can be fun, but it's optional. I prefer making up my own objectives, like stalking certain areas and cutting off reinforcements trying to join back with their groups

. Well, you'll find whatever suits you. Being in a group can be fun, but it depends on the group.

Unsent.Soul · August 2016

In groups it's often said to stick with crown, follow crown, help crown... could have been a miss communication on their part, maybe they didn't hear what you said and figured they'd message you.

All that typing because someone sent you a message? Granted they could have left out the "or leave group" but it is what it is.

Did they threaten you? Call you names? Did it hurt your feelings? I'm just curious why this post was even needed.

AverageJo3Gam3r · August 2016

Stay on crown in organized PvP is the same as not standing in red in a PvE dungeon. He could have been nicer about it, but it's no different than being threatened to be kicked from a group for standing in red.

The reason for sticking on crown is that a small, organized group of people can wipe a much much larger group of unorganized people. Things like calling out healers to focus fire, coordinate ultimate use, calling out when and where to siege, ensuring Rapids/barrier is used at the right time, etc. these are all things a good crown is managing.

I don't think your experience is elitism rather just a lack of manners/explaining expectations to you.

smacx250 · August 2016

It isn't elitism - the crown leads the group, which you joined. Generally, for the leader to lead, the group must follow. If the group is all spread out doing whatever they want, it makes it pretty much impossible to act as a team for a common objective. The group leader was just letting you know they expected the group to stay with them (and should generally be assumed as the norm when joining a PvP group). Don't feel bad about it - just part of the learning process. I'd suggest reading through this info - it may be out of date in some areas, but gives a lot of good concepts: https://darkelves.com/eso/

shauny.gibbsb16_ESO · August 2016

Myself and a few friends recently created a guild for casual pvp on EU for this very reason, there's some really good organised pvp guilds, most require you to follow an amount of rules, sometimes having to build your character in a certain way, or having to be on TS etc, it's not always elitism, it can be that as a dedicated pvp guild they'll feel they need to be best they can at all times, military in a way, but that doesn't suit everyone who wants to pvp but be in a group and feel part of something without the hardcore elements.

Also, and this is important, contrary to popular belief not everyone who pvp' s is a ***, you get just as many elitists in PvE who have little time or patience for others, you also get great friendly players in both.

DeclaredJester · August 2016

elitism would be more when people try to decide which skills you can use, what items you can wear. Following the group leader and acting as a team (zerg?) is hardly elitism. Sending PSN messages to people (regardless of the issue) is uncalled for. Use a headset. If people don't use a headset and decide to take off, kick them from the group. Problem solved.

Reverb · August 2016

"Stack on crown" groups are typically the least dynamic and skilled. Not always, of course, but usually. They're the best kind of group for players new to the alliance war. If you're just getting into PvP, and running with a group that has a proven history of good success and map control, then sticking with the crown when told is a good thing to do. Tearing off with a pack of random to chase down stragglers is a scrub move.

As you become more familiar and skilled in cyrodiil, you're likely to find these types of groups less and less appealing.

GreenhaloX · August 2016

Thank you, all, for the feedback and comparative views. I appreciate it.

smacx250 wrote: »

It isn't elitism - the crown leads the group, which you joined. Generally, for the leader to lead, the group must follow. If the group is all spread out doing whatever they want, it makes it pretty much impossible to act as a team for a common objective. The group leader was just letting you know they expected the group to stay with them (and should generally be assumed as the norm when joining a PvP group). Don't feel bad about it - just part of the learning process. I'd suggest reading through this info - it may be out of date in some areas, but gives a lot of good concepts: https://darkelves.com/eso/

@smacx250, thank you for the link. I appreciate it. It is good stuff. I will definitely have to sit down and examine it more thoroughly.

GreenhaloX · August 2016

cjthibs wrote: »

Some people are punks...you see the same attitude when you try and join a pug group for dungeons...other people are overly sensitive. Welcome to reality snowflakes.

Snowflakes.. that is good. You started my day off with a good laugh. Thank you, I appreciate it. I was expecting something more like Nancy, though. No offense to anyone actually name Nancy. Lol!

cjthibs · August 2016

GreenhaloX wrote: »

cjthibs wrote: »

Some people are punks...you see the same attitude when you try and join a pug group for dungeons...other people are overly sensitive. Welcome to reality snowflakes.

Snowflakes.. that is good. You started my day off with a good laugh. Thank you, I appreciate it. I was expecting something more like Nancy, though. No offense to anyone actually name Nancy. Lol!

In all seriousness...this is a mild example of what might be seen out there in Cyrodiil or in pug dungeon groups.
I usually PvP with a group that I know, so I don't see too much of it directed at me, but yeah...I've seen some pretty vile stuff out there. This, however, I think was just a simple misunderstanding.

The remark was more directed at the folks who seek a ban because someone teabagged them.
(I'd hate to see them in ANY first person shooters with their ears on.)

yodased · August 2016

Tonality and inflection can't be seen on chat, truth be told those rules should have been set up from the beginning.

Doesn't seem out of line, wasn't insulting or even antagonistic, just a simple instruction for group control.

If you don't like that type of ballgroup PvP, (me neither), don' join those groups

IcyDeadPeople · August 2016

My experiences in PVP are much more chill and relaxing than PVE. I just hop on, wander around and kill people or (more often) get killed.

Nobody cares if you are a skilled player or not. Obviously enemy players would prefer you to be unskilled. To the friendly solo player, you are just someone in their vicinity and usually they will rez you even if you are level 10 volunteer.

The people who lead those big groups tend to merely want as many warm bodies as they can get in their group with qualification of having a pulse, owning siege and stacking on crown.

Endgame PVE content on the other hand seems to generate more elitism, bickering about builds, kicking people who aren't up to snuff, etc.

yodased wrote: »

Tonality and inflection can't be seen on chat, truth be told those rules should have been set up from the beginning.

Doesn't seem out of line, wasn't insulting or even antagonistic, just a simple instruction for group control.

If you don't like that type of ballgroup PvP, (me neither), don' join those groups

^This

THEDKEXPERIENCE · August 2016

I lead groups almost every day. Here are a couple tips for you.

There are a few reasons to stay with crown. Like ...

- ... crown should be the leader of the group. If all else fails, go to crown to find your heals, and safety in numbers.
- ... when I say, "3 blues on crown" it's not because I'm in trouble (usually). It's because it's a very easy way for someone to identify where the majority of your bad guys are. On crown > Cardinal directions > left, right, behind us, ahead > bad guys on Larry > bad guys on me > ahhhhhhh!!! > off crown dead > playing dub step while off crown and dead. Simple communication is good for the group.
- ... crown is probably a high ranking player with a fast mount who, when not talking keeps, will often be the entire group's bloodhound.
- ... off crown is earned. If you show you're good over a few days, weeks, months you'll get more leniency.
- ... going off crown can lead to deaths. Then someone else will have to go off crown to revive you. Then the group is weaker.

I do think the direct message was a bit out of line, but I don't exactly what happened.

That said, I've had infinitely more bad experiences with elitism in dungeons than PVP. I run 2 resto staves, but I'll kill 100 people in an hour meanwhile, 50% of the time I go into a dungeon I hear that I can't survive because I'm a Vampire when they've never played with me. Just stay off of area chat and generally PVP is quite fun. Or go in area chat and listen to dub step.

Mettaricana · August 2016

Elite is getting expelled from a group or guild from not having flavor of the month character build and race combo

THEDKEXPERIENCE · August 2016

Mettaricana wrote: »

Elite is getting expelled from a group or guild from not having flavor of the month character build and race combo

Well that's just silly. I'd much rather run with a group of players specced the way they like even if it's weird. FOTM builds are for the week minded. Find the flavor of next month.

Takes-No-Prisoner · August 2016

Hard to say what was happening. I think crown must of assumed because you were lower level and don't know what goes on that you were singled out. Or maybe you weren't following instructions. I wouldn't call it elitism, I think the guy with crown recognized you got confused and lost when he was handing out instructions.

Don't worry about it. Don't over think it. When your in his voice chat and he says "You need to be on crown now" make sure you get there and make attempts to show you're in his presence. I typically ride a long side crown when we move from place to place to make my presence known. Or I stand near by him to show I am ready to go.

Soleya · August 2016

Do I understand correctly? You decided to leave and do other things, but stayed grouped with them? Why not say thanks, goodbye and leave group?

Last weekend I lead a small group. And at one point I told everyone stack on crown, we're moving out in 1 minute. A minute later there are still 2 people on the other side of the map doing who knows what.

So we left them there. The point of the group is to work together, and it become frustrating for the leader and everyone who's following when someone isn't there and everyone is waiting on them.

I think in your case it's just over thinking it and it wasn't elitism.

There is plenty of it in PVP though. Some good examples that friends or myself have encountered.
1. Kicked from group cause you don't have the right gear
2. After joining a PUG group in zone chat, helping them take multiple keeps and defend multiple keeps they tell you, if you aren't on TS you're being kicked. And then getting kicked.
3. Asking for a group in chat and being told "There are no groups", and yet you see 50-60 players all in the same area.

ScooberSteve · August 2016

Try joining a more casual pvp guild. You will learn lots and have fun. If you find yourself becoming more seriously interested in pvp then join a serious pvp guild. Alliance server?

Sygil05 · August 2016

Maybe I misread this, but: Did you stay in the group, but go off to do your own thing after you were done with PVP (ie questing somewhere else or logging off altogether)?

I can understand why they'd ask for you to leave the group if that were the case, as there's a limit to the number of people that can be in a group at any given time.

Rohamad_Ali · August 2016

I'd hate to share the stories I've been through regarding L33tism . It goes way beyond this but made me a better player after words . I looked at it like virtual boot camp , kept my mouth shut and followed evil Drill instructor's commands religious for months . I still have nightmares .

This is my keyboard . There are many like it but this one is mine ...

Thank you hardcore Drill Instructor where ever you are .

failkiwib16_ESO · August 2016

Reverb wrote: »

"Stack on crown" groups are typically the least dynamic and skilled. Not always, of course, but usually. They're the best kind of group for players new to the alliance war. If you're just getting into PvP, and running with a group that has a proven history of good success and map control, then sticking with the crown when told is a good thing to do. Tearing off with a pack of random to chase down stragglers is a scrub move.

As you become more familiar and skilled in cyrodiil, you're likely to find these types of groups less and less appealing.

^This is why i don't bother with trial guilds and certain pvp guilds. It's really fun though, but since I'm very dedicated in leading my own social guild, I can't find the energy to invest enough and actually care about rules in other guilds.

When raiding with serious groups, this is what happens: raidleader or groupleader sends an order, everyone follows it blindly. No time for breaks, unless leader approves and group is aware. Skills, gear & potions and other utility must be adjusted beforehand before start of raid - while communicating with raidleader + others of your own role.

For instance I play as a healer, I talk to the other healer on the team about who casts what buffs, and if we split then which group we stick to, how to support the tanks etc. We have to adjust all these things before the raid begins - wether it is pvp or pve.

<<I mainly pvp alone, or I join 2-3 friends in case we meet eachother in Cyrodiil - no rules, no orders, no teamspeak and no ambitions other than killing lol same goes for pve, I only bother with normal versions of trials.

THEDKEXPERIENCE · August 2016

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

I'd hate to share the stories I've been through regarding L33tism . It goes way beyond this but made me a better player after words . I looked at it like virtual boot camp , kept my mouth shut and followed evil Drill instructor's commands religious for months . I still have nightmares .

This is my keyboard . There are many like it but this one is mine ...

Thank you hardcore Drill Instructor where ever you are .

100% this. I originally ran into my current guild leader last year and I learned more about how to take a keep in an hour than I did in the previous 6 months. After I left group I said to myself that I would never be the guy without siege who is off crown again, because I don't want to have to listen to jerks like that again.

A few months go by and I was recruited to be in the same guild I had the bad learning experience in. I joined. What did I learn? That the leader is actually a pretty cool person and it's often like hearding cats running large groups. I've even had a few "Get the F on crown or I'm kicking you" moments myself and I'm usually a very calm and overly polite person. Long story short I'm now a general in that PVP guild and become friends with many great people after being in a similar position to the OP just last year.

Cyrodiil is not rocket science but there are a few things that newbies really need to abide by in order to be part of a successful team.

Ackwalan · August 2016

There are always people who think being crown or guild leader/officer gives them the authority to tell others how to build their toons. Often the loudest person in the guild/group has no authority to tell anybody anything. There are good PvP guilds that help others without telling them its 'their way or the highway". Your best bet to find them is to join different 'pugs' in PvP and shop around.

failkiwib16_ESO · August 2016

@danielpatrickkeaneub17_ESO there is more to it though, OP here feels he is new in the guild, and joined the raid to help out. The CALL TO ARMS message he got may have been a regular weekly or daily guild mail, and the officers or raidleader was not aware that OP was new to their playstyle..

Not all guilds give introductions, and people who recruit for guilds don't give introductions either.

Yolokin_Swagonborn · August 2016

This thread gives me hope. There were some amazing responses in here so far.

Junipus wrote: »

This isn't elitism, this is feeling off-guard because of a short, sharp message. Regardless of its content and your actions during the evening, simply shrug it off (since it wasn't offensive) and carry on.

End of thread, but this explains it even better.

yodased wrote: »

Tonality and inflection can't be seen on chat, truth be told those rules should have been set up from the beginning.

Doesn't seem out of line, wasn't insulting or even antagonistic, just a simple instruction for group control.

If you don't like that type of ballgroup PvP, (me neither), don' join those groups

Emphasis added. I wish the bolded part was something you were required to memorize before being let onto the internet.

When people say the PvP community is toxic, I guess they overlook all the great people in this thread explaining things. GG all.

dotlife · August 2016

Can we just PLEASEstop using the words "Elitism" or "Elitist" to somehow magically explain everything that happens to us when interacting with rude people somewhere. Elitist or Elitism is just so very limited in its power to explain that which is happening.

Thank You in advance.

kind regards

ps. And in my view there is no reason here for this episode to get you down at all. Just hang on to your belifs and brush experiences like this off, laugh and move on. Do you Think people will think about what happend the day after? Nobody will remember anything.

You can however be sure that things will get said when things are heated in MMO's due to various reasons one of them being addiction and lack of sleep just to name two. And I would estimate that atleast around 5-10% of the people playing have some kind of developmental disturbance, which also effects them emotionally, like we find in the rest of the population. Some of those are psychopaths. So dont you Worry