Lysette wrote: »

The thing with the suggestion of this thread is not to get rich - but to be able to sell a few things without to have to join a guild and make the frustratiing experience to be kicked out again, because they are not sales people, who would be interested into running a trade business - they just want to sell a few things at a better and more reasonable price than NPC merchants offer them. As it is currently, it is not even worth to loot enemies for stuff which they cannot sell - just deconstruct.

Lysette wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

The thing with the suggestion of this thread is not to get rich - but to be able to sell a few things without to have to join a guild and make the frustratiing experience to be kicked out again, because they are not sales people, who would be interested into running a trade business - they just want to sell a few things at a better and more reasonable price than NPC merchants offer them. As it is currently, it is not even worth to loot enemies for stuff which they cannot sell - just deconstruct.

you were playing at the beginning?

how did you make gold?

and all these, allegedly, evil rich players who control the guilds - at the beginning, how did they make gold?

its ok.... i'l answer my own questions.... cos i was there.

you loot everything - anything you can't use you either sell to other players or you npc it. that simple. nothing to stop a new player today doing the same thing.

It is not about me, I can be thrown in pretty much any environment and will come out well - but I have a talent for this, not all people have this and they will just give up and leave - like all those, who are in that guild I inherited. There are just 3 left in that guild, who have logged in during the last month, including me - all the others are gone. And this guild is just 8 months old.

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

The thing with the suggestion of this thread is not to get rich - but to be able to sell a few things without to have to join a guild and make the frustratiing experience to be kicked out again, because they are not sales people, who would be interested into running a trade business - they just want to sell a few things at a better and more reasonable price than NPC merchants offer them. As it is currently, it is not even worth to loot enemies for stuff which they cannot sell - just deconstruct.

you were playing at the beginning?

how did you make gold?

and all these, allegedly, evil rich players who control the guilds - at the beginning, how did they make gold?

its ok.... i'l answer my own questions.... cos i was there.

you loot everything - anything you can't use you either sell to other players or you npc it. that simple. nothing to stop a new player today doing the same thing.

It is not about me, I can be thrown in pretty much any environment and will come out well - but I have a talent for this, not all people have this and they will just give up and leave - like all those, who are in that guild I inherited. There are just 3 left in that guild, who have logged in during the last month, including me - all the others are gone. And this guild is just 8 months old.

All the people who left told you it was because they couldnt make money?

Lysette wrote: »

I suggested for example to not have a trader but an NPC - like the fence in an outlaw refuge - which will just buy the stuff at half the market value - and this market value is calculated once a week and done at patch day or shortly before it. What would be so bad with this?.- It would be an instant sale, but just give half the market value - still better than what merchants pay. And it could be limited to like 20k per week. This would make no one rich, but they could at least sell their stuff without to be in a guild.

For someone who can sell columbine it is nice to find that - for someone who cannot, it is just another plant, which is worth 1 gold - or which can be used in own potions - can you see now how frustrating this can be - 1 gold compared to 400g at a guild trader? Where is the fun in finding it?- It just reminds you, that you cannot sell it and it is frustrating. With such a public trader, who would just buy stuff at half the market value, they would get 200g - hurray, now it is fun to find that and there would still not be a need to farm a lot of them to fulfill any guild requirements.

Lysette wrote: »

I suggested for example to not have a trader but an NPC - like the fence in an outlaw refuge - which will just buy the stuff at half the market value - and this market value is calculated once a week and done at patch day or shortly before it. What would be so bad with this?.- It would be an instant sale, but just give half the market value - still better than what merchants pay. And it could be limited to like 20k per week. This would make no one rich, but they could at least sell their stuff without to be in a guild.

For someone who can sell columbine it is nice to find that - for someone who cannot, it is just another plant, which is worth 1 gold - or which can be used in own potions - can you see now how frustrating this can be - 1 gold compared to 400g at a guild trader? Where is the fun in finding it?- It just reminds you, that you cannot sell it and it is frustrating. With such a public trader, who would just buy stuff at half the market value, they would get 200g - hurray, now it is fun to find that and there would still not be a need to farm a lot of them to fulfill any guild requirements.

Cryptical wrote: »

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

There seem to be some ridiculous misconceptions about trading guilds.

I've seen mention of "tax" between 2k to 15k a week. That's not how it works - there's a sales tax that takes a proportion of what you sell. There's also a listing cost. These depend on how much you sell. If you are paying 2k tax then it's because you are making 20K gold... not such a hardship

It's also been said that you have to pay to be in a top trading guild. Now I am in one trading guild that asks for 1000g a week, hardly expensive. You have to expect to pay for a top trading site - or do people expect that advantage for free?

However, I'm also a member of another guild that doesn't require any contribution at all. Sales tax and listing costs are still there, but these only apply to what you sell, you are always in profit.

And remember, any guild with 50 or more members has a guild store so that they can sell to each other. No trader required

There also seems to be the weird notion that you can sell any old trash. This is nonsense. If you've just killed a boss and got a nice blue drop that a vendor will only give you 47g for don't think you can get any more listing it with a vendor. It simply won't sell because everyone has got that drop from that boss. The only exceptions are if it has a rare trait, that crafters want to research, or is purple (because someone might take the gamble on it returning a purple temper). Vendor trash does not have any great value - that's why even traders sell to vendors for that 47g.

So all in all I wonder when I see comments like:

"People who are gouging through those trade guilds will have to wake the f up and mend their ways, because there will be viable competition through the Public Trader"

Where is this "gouging"? The market settles on a price, governed by supply and demand. In exactly the same way if there were local traders for people who won't join a trading guild. If the going price for columbine is 400g then why does anyone think that Public Traders will sell for less?

Unfortunately when I see people use terms like "gouging" I read "I want to stop them doing that there way... so I can do it my way!"

You quoted me.
Last week I needed more ancestor silk. Found a stack at a trade cart in hews bane for 10,000. Also found stacks at a trader cart at the Elden root tree for 15,000 to 30,000.

Now, a stack of ancestor silk priced from 10,000 to 30,000. Clearly the market did not settle on a price, as you wrongly believed would happen. SOMEONE is gouging. The reason I bought any (at the 10k price) was because I had just spent 5 hours farming 500 silk and wasn't in the mood to keep going.

Now, what message does that price variation send? Is the silk found at TRIPLE the hews bane price three times as good? Does the shadow of the Elden root tree make that silk 3 times as useful?!?! Answer - NO.

It's a higher price for no good reason other than the location causes the guild bid to be higher, which causes the prices to be higher, causing the guild bids to be higher, causing prices to get higher, in a self reinforcing cycle of inflationary gouging.

From the guild master's point of view...
More was spent on the cart, so more must come in via tax and member fees, plus profit, so we can cover more being spent on the cart, so more must come in via tax and fees, plus profit... Lather rinse repeat. Why do the bids go up? Because losing a cart for a week makes you want it all the more the next, so go raise the stakes. Add in guild bid spying, Where people watch the guild bank balance and the bid history in order to know how to outbid a competing guild, and the situation becomes uncontrollable.

There has come a point that the bids themselves are large enough that new startups are priced out of the possibility, the established trader guilds require more and more time being managed more and more efficiently, just to maintain the status quo.

Just 1 publicly accessible trader cart in each alliance zone breaks that self reinforcing cycle, by providing a trading venue that could be true market competition at the individual seller level. What we have now is not free market, because free market doesn't place such barriers to entry. We have a limited space market where a few groups and consortiums have grown to dominate amongst themselves.

Oh, and "doing that there way" should be "doing that their way".

Cryptical wrote: »

[quote="I_killed_Vivec;3252623"


You say I wrongly believe that the market settled on a price, and yet you bought for the lowest price...

Please remember that anyone can put anything up for sale at any price - it does not mean that it sells at that price! The premium for location that you seem to think is factored into the price would make a price unacceptable, so it wouldn't sell. What kind of idiot would buy at 30K if it's also at sale for 10K?

Using your example it looks like the market is settling on a price. Even you managed to pay the minimum. Please don't say that someone else will be forced to pay 30K, because new goods are always coming to market and with over 150 traders it isn't hard to find a good price and anomalies such as something costing three times as much are simple to see.

You managed to find a price that was acceptable, system working correctly...

By the way, top locations aren't more expensive because you can sell your goods for more. They are more expensive because you get a greater turnover, and with only 30 slots available to you turnover is important.

It's all part of the game. There is an economic facet of the game just as there are killing, crafting, stealing, assassinating aspects to the game. If you don't want to join a guild and play that part of the game then fine, but there's no reason why a part of the game that some people enjoy should be removed to meet your financial requirements.

As I said, it's not "Remove gouging", it's "Stop them doing it so I can!"

(I apologize humbly for my typo. I'm sure you think it negates what I said, but it really doesn't.)